[Closed] Road/Touring Bike with a short TT?

Have you considered less drastic options? Specifically, a shorter stem, and bars with less forward reach (including randonneur bars, which have backsweep). Raising the bars a little may also help.

5'5" isn't off-the-scale short, surely? 45cm seems like a crazy number: AFAIK the Islabikes Luath 24 has a 45cm top tube, and that's a 24"-wheeled bike for 8 year olds at 4'3". If you're on 700c wheels the toe overlap would be insane.

Can't think what the 35 degrees would refer to, either…

Can't imagine you'll find much apart from kids bikes with a 450mm top tube. What length stem do you have? As above, try the shortest one you can fit, see if that makes a difference?

Alternatively, plenty of people have put Jones bars on Awols, obviously not super cheap to get new shifters and brake levers, but certainly cheaper than a whole new bike!

450mm TT - your knees would hit the handlebars....a toptube less than 51cm with 700c wheels plus you'll probably have difficulty avoiding front wheel / toe overlap.  I've designed a number of custom frames for myself and 550mm for a XS/S drop-bar bike is ridiculously long.

I'm not surprised your AWOL feels too big, the reach is 386mm and stack 589mm for the frame with 55.5cm top tube (small), very similar to my 58cm Cube Attain (388/610) and I'm 5'10" with 32.5" cycling inseam (short legs).

I have tried quite a few stem options, and ended up settling on this. I bought a headtube extender and a 45mm stem, but it produces much of the same results as this combination here. Raising the bars definitely helped a huge amount. There are no bars with any significantly smaller reach than this has.

I know it does sound really crazy. And I don't get how no drop bar bike would fit me. But he seems to really know what he's talking about. The 35 degrees was an angle between something, which is the ideal angle, I'm not really sure either.

I really don't seem to understand. I was thinking it might be worth going to another LBS, where I can try on bikes. There's Richmond Cycles in London, who seem to have a great range or Surly/Salsa stuff which is kinda what I'd want - an adventure touring bike.

A Jones bar is an idea! I've never tried one, they look much too expensive to even try unfortunately. He suggested selling it, and reckons I would get a fair bit for it rather than investing more into it.

Edit:

Yeah, the 450mm is ridiculously small. I didn't realise 550 was ridiculously long though. Maybe it's worth trying a drop bar bike with a shorter TT, apparently the AWOL is really long. Also, I absolutely love your custom bikes, they're amazing!

Wow, that's crazy if my AWOL is as along as your 58cm Cube, wtf? I was looking at the Salsa Marrakech and Vaya and they seem to be roughly the same length though.

Have you considered smaller wheel sizes? The Surly Disc Trucker goes down to a 50.5cm top tube in the 42cm size (26" wheels) and the Straggler 650b goes to 50.0cm in 38cm size (650b, obvs). Then there's the Luath, though you'd lose disc brakes.

The Jones bars are expensive, but if you look at second hand prices they seem to hold their value pretty well, so it's not such a big financial risk if it doesn't work as you can sell them on. Alternatively, you could go "full Euro" and fit butterfly bars, but this should be considered the nuclear option after all else has failed 🙂

Otherwise what about a Genesis Tour de Fer? They come in drop and flat bar options and the geometry is a little shorter than the Awol. Far cheaper than a Salsa as well!

55.5 is long for a small bike. As mentioned, a shorter stem will help, but almost any small sized bike will have a shorter reach than that. You want to go down to about a 52, nothing smaller. Some short drop compact bars and a shorter stem will buy you about 4 cm, beyond that, the handling will start to suffer. It's not a wheel size issue. We had an XS Giant Avail for my son when he was smaller, and that was fine with 700c wheels. It replaced a 650c Trek road bike that was lovely, but was stolen.

A few things occur to me, although they may not apply to you or be the reason for your fit problems:

- The bars are well above the saddle height. Although it's not an absolute rule, I would generally not expect the bars for most riders to be above saddle height even for a leisurely touring rider. Are you particularly inflexible or do you have a large gut? If so, you might find that addressing these issues (pilates or other exercises, or losing weight) will improve the bike fit/comfort.

- Flat pedals with STIs is not a common combination. Are you riding with the balls of your feet roughly over the pedal spindle? If your feet are positioned much further forwards on the pedals, I suspect that may be a factor in your problems.

- 55cm does seem long for the top tube, although according to the Specialized website the bike is specified with a relatively short 5cm stem (presumably the long top tube was chosen to increase the front centre measurement and minimise/avoid toe overlap, especially if mudguards are fitted with wide tyres).

- I am sceptical of the shop's bike fitter's assessment. I suggest you have a look at the advice on bike fit in the link below, which was written by two people at Spa Cycles (one of the authors posts on the CyclingUK forum as 531Colin, and the link is in his signature), which might give you some ideas about whether and how to adjust your current position.

WHEEL-EASY.ORG.UK "http://wheel-easy.org.uk/uploads/documents/Bike+Set+Up+2017a.pdf"

All of the advice below is given on the assumption that you are a relatively normal, healthy human being with no major debilitating conditions.

With road bikes and drop bars, you need to set the bars LOWER than the saddle, otherwise they ride like cack. Generally, the taller you are, the greater the difference in height between the bars and the saddle. If someone tells you otherwise, they don't have a clue and are talking bollocks so ignore them 😉

Put your bars higher than the saddle and you're forced into an upright position, putting your weight in all the wrong places. An upright position is fine for a shopping bike, notice that shopping bikes have swept back bars which provide comfy hand position for sitting upright.

As for the saddle, the main gripe everyone seems to have with Brooks saddles is you need a seatpost with LOADS of setback to get them in a comfy position, yet here you are with yours mounted to an inline seatpost?

Yes, your bike is probably a touch too big for you. But that is not the cause of your problems. Buy a bike the correct size and set it up like you have and you'll have exactly the same issues. You should be able to get your bike to fit properly, but it might require a slightly shorter than ideal stem with a steeply sloping negative angle. A top tube that's too long doesn't mean the bike won't fit, it just means it won't handle quite as responsively as it should.

I'd say you've got two options: fit some shopping bike bars and enjoy a bike for cruising round town on. It'll be awful for any proper road cycling though.

Or, set your bars lower than your saddle, put a proper seatpost on and then go and see a decent bike fitter who DOESN'T measure leg angles.

OP - are you local to Richmond? If so my partner is 5'3" and rides bikes including drop bar bikes. We could arrange to meet up somewhere mutually convenient (in public) and we could show you how we've made bikes work for her and maybe talk about how things can be made to work for you. If that sound interesting then PM me, I have reasonable level of confidence that there's a solution to get you happy on your bike 😊

The limit on length is foot overlap on the front wheel. You can't legally mass produce very short bikes anymore. I had a 650 road standard bike built by Hinault bikes for a short customer who was fussy about position and wanted a bike that looked right, it did.

rGo flat bars. There’s a thing in this country about touring bikes - everyone seems to think they have to have drop bars but in Europe it’s almost the opposite.

Ive got short arms and my Genesis TDF was a drop bar bike I converted to flats - I’ve got some 17 degree salsa bars on it and it’s ridiculously comfy.

[URL= http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/rcatkin/Bikes/Genesis%20Tour%20De%20Fer/2C733082-8C27-4811-AD0F-0177CEFC9607_zps8n7b6hgv.jp g" target="_blank">http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/rcatkin/Bikes/Genesis%20Tour%20De%20Fer/2C733082-8C27-4811-AD0F-0177CEFC9607_zps8n7b6hgv.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

It's probably worth looking at quality old British lugged steel bikes. They were designed in an era where they were transportation as well as recreational, so comfort was also an important design consideration. They were also generally ridden with shorter stems than currently fashionable which may solve the reach problem.

Go on eBay and search for 531 (for general purpose), 531c (for a sporty bike), or 531ST (if you want to load it up). So long as they have been looked after, it's hard to beat the ride. Searching for 531 avoids the gas pipe bikes.

I notice prices are rising in the last few years as more folk realise just how good they were. (Not saying that the current crop of bikes aren't good)

Fairlight Cycles do a tall version of each frame which is taller and shorter. Swift Cycles in E1 7LF have stock and demo models. New gravel model coming soon I understand.

Odd one.

I'm the same height as you, as is my Mrs and we both fit her small AWOL fine with the standard stem.

Definitely try some shallower, shorter bars, they might just make a difference.

No overlap on the short AWOL btw, even with 45mm tyres and guards.

Couldnt quote you any figures but my Diverge is shorter than my Defy.

As above 55.5cm top tube seems rather long for a small.  I'm 5ft 10 and would be happy riding a bike with 55.5cm top tube without feeling unnecessarily cramped.  Are you sure this is correct?  Or is Specialized "small" just strangely proportioned for a "small"?

Another "long and low" bike I've come across recently, besides this AWOL talked about in here, is the  http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/vitus-energie-cyclo-x-bike-apex-1x11-2018/rp-prod159446

The height sizing says I should pick a 56cm, but going on the frame stack and reach of my 58cm Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc (388/610), even the 52cm Energie is longer!

However, frame stack and reach does not tell the whole story of a bike fit. I've got the max 3.5cm of spacers under the -6(?) degree 100mm stem on my Cube, the reach of the bars will also affect things and the 505 hydraulics on my Cube add extra reach to the hoods.

The AWOL has a longer effective top tube than the other Specialized touring models (Diverge and Sequoia), which have shorter effective top tubes combined with longer stems. The AWOL seems to be similar to the Salsa Vaya and Genesis Vagabond style of bike, which are intended for relatively high handlebars.

It looks to me like many of those bikes will offer a more comfortable position riding in the drops than on the hoods, and that looks to be the case with the OP's bike given the seemingly shorter reach to the compact drops compared with the hoods. Many of those bikes also use odd shaped bars, e.g. Woodchippers, which seem to be intended for more riding in the drops, and the bar end shifters fitted to the Vagabond will similarly be easier and quicker to use from the drops. So maybe the AWOL was not designed with the intention of being set up for riding in a classic position with much lower bars and  hands on the hoods (despite being fitted with STIs which would normally be mostly used for riding on the hoods).

Given the long top tube, the AWOL probably would work very well with flat bars (or a Jones bar), and depending on the type of use (e.g. commuting, light off road etc.) flat bars might be a better choice, especially in combination with the flat pedals.

My Merida ride lite has a 545mm TT and is a size M/L. I'm 5'11.   Get a different bike, I'm sure your AWOL will have a decent second hand value.

I would go the flat bar route, with regard to cost, remember that your 105 shifters are probably worth a few quid.

my mate has a genesis croix de fer alfine 11, a lovely bike, but although it fitted him properly, he never found it very comfortable. So he took off the bars and shifter, removed the brakes and bought some shiny new kit to replace them.

Carbon dh bars, with bar ends and ergon grips, alfine sti shifter, zee brakes.

sounds like a dogs breakfast, but works brilliantly.

Investigate all options, ultimately, its your bike to live with.

People are saying 550mm TT is long for a small bike - based on a std ~100mm road stem and 80-90mm reach bar yes, but a 60mm stem and 70mm short reach bar gives a very different fit. STA affects things a fair bit too. 550mm for a 5'5" rider can work fine, TT length is only a part of it.

Awol is designed for big tyres and guards and the ISO std for toe overlap limits how short the TT can go, unless you go silly slack on the HTA.

Look at reach, and start with a saddle that's more sensibly behind the BB. A Brooks on an inline post will mean you're falling forwards however short the reach is. Maybe see a better fitter who works off balance not leg angles and all that formulaic stuff (he may be very skilled to be fair and you may have unusual proportions, I don't know, but as soon as a fitter mentions perfect leg angles I'm out - esp if that 'perfect' angle comes from a saddle and post that puts you ~50mm further fwd than is common for a comfortable fit)

Get your saddle height and setback right first, then you can start thinking about reach to the handlebars.

The link Slowster posted has some good advice in it. Everyone has different methods but that's as good as most. ^ this bit is key and OPs saddle set up might be the cause of it, as the linked document explains. If pedalling on flats with the foot well fwd on the pedal that is also likely to be linked to a well-fwd saddle position, all compensating for the saddle being n the wrong place and having a knock-on effect on wanting the bar to come closer.

This is a crazy amount of advice, just want to say a huge thanks to everyone for being so helpful. I’m sorry that I didn’t get round to replying to everyone.

I took onboard some of the advice here, and spent nearly the whole day messing around with different setups. I put a setback seatpost on, the original one it came with, and experimented with a range of different size cockpits. I tried a 45mm stem, then tried it with a headtube extender and brought it all the way to the top, which looked ridiculous. I tried it in a range of positions, and none of them seemed to be remotely comfortable. I even tried putting further down in increments, to all the way down which was just much worse. I then tried the 60mm Specialized stem and it only seems worse, the bars feel even further away. The irritating thing is, I’m supposed to be doing a 100km ride on this thing tomorrow!

Otherwise what about a Genesis Tour de Fer? They come in drop and flat bar options and the geometry is a little shorter than the Awol. Far cheaper than a Salsa as well!

The Genesis bikes are really good value for money, especially compared to the Salsas, it's ridiculous how much they are now. I was looking at the Tour De Fer, and it's ETT is 547, which is pretty much 550, so there's not really any difference.

A few things occur to me, although they may not apply to you or be the reason for your fit problems:

– The bars are well above the saddle height. Although it’s not an absolute rule, I would generally not expect the bars for most riders to be above saddle height even for a leisurely touring rider. Are you particularly inflexible or do you have a large gut? If so, you might find that addressing these issues (pilates or other exercises, or losing weight) will improve the bike fit/comfort.

– Flat pedals with STIs is not a common combination. Are you riding with the balls of your feet roughly over the pedal spindle? If your feet are positioned much further forwards on the pedals, I suspect that may be a factor in your problems.

– 55cm does seem long for the top tube, although according to the Specialized website the bike is specified with a relatively short 5cm stem (presumably the long top tube was chosen to increase the front centre measurement and minimise/avoid toe overlap, especially if mudguards are fitted with wide tyres).

– I am sceptical of the shop’s bike fitter’s assessment. I suggest you have a look at the advice on bike fit in the link below, which was written by two people at Spa Cycles (one of the authors posts on the CyclingUK forum as 531Colin, and the link is in his signature), which might give you some ideas about whether and how to adjust your current position.

That’s a really good point about the bars being at the wrong height. I have never seen anyone elses bars like this, which indicates that I’m probably riding it wrong, or doing something wrong. I really don’t notice any significant disproportion on my body, nor am I unflexible or overweight (I’m 55kg).

The balls of my feet are roughly at the centre of the pedals, yes. It’d be painful to cycle otherwise I would think.

Thank you for the link, I will go through it, though I’m not sure I’ll have a chance before my ride.

All of the advice below is given on the assumption that you are a relatively normal, healthy human being with no major debilitating conditions.

With road bikes and drop bars, you need to set the bars LOWER than the saddle, otherwise they ride like cack. Generally, the taller you are, the greater the difference in height between the bars and the saddle. If someone tells you otherwise, they don’t have a clue and are talking bollocks so ignore them 😉

Put your bars higher than the saddle and you’re forced into an upright position, putting your weight in all the wrong places. An upright position is fine for a shopping bike, notice that shopping bikes have swept back bars which provide comfy hand position for sitting upright.

As for the saddle, the main gripe everyone seems to have with Brooks saddles is you need a seatpost with LOADS of setback to get them in a comfy position, yet here you are with yours mounted to an inline seatpost?

Yes, your bike is probably a touch too big for you. But that is not the cause of your problems. Buy a bike the correct size and set it up like you have and you’ll have exactly the same issues. You should be able to get your bike to fit properly, but it might require a slightly shorter than ideal stem with a steeply sloping negative angle. A top tube that’s too long doesn’t mean the bike won’t fit, it just means it won’t handle quite as responsively as it should.

I’d say you’ve got two options: fit some shopping bike bars and enjoy a bike for cruising round town on. It’ll be awful for any proper road cycling though.

Or, set your bars lower than your saddle, put a proper seatpost on and then go and see a decent bike fitter who DOESN’T measure leg angles.

Thanks for the advice.

I tried setting the bars lower than the saddle, but that makes it really uncomfortable and forces me to bend my back a lot. Thanks for the advice on the saddle, I’ve tried putting a setback seatpost on to see if it makes any difference, but I haven’t noticed anything drastic.

I didn’t realise measuring leg angles was wrong? The guy was really helpful and seemed to know what he was talking about.

OP – are you local to Richmond? If so my partner is 5’3″ and rides bikes including drop bar bikes. We could arrange to meet up somewhere mutually convenient (in public) and we could show you how we’ve made bikes work for her and maybe talk about how things can be made to work for you. If that sound interesting then PM me, I have reasonable level of confidence that there’s a solution to get you happy on your bike

That’s incredibly kind of you! I’m not local, but in London. If I don’t manage to sort it out, I would really appreciate that! I’ll let you know, if that’s okay? Thanks (:

Go flat bars. There’s a thing in this country about touring bikes – everyone seems to think they have to have drop bars but in Europe it’s almost the opposite.

I’ve got short arms and my Genesis TDF was a drop bar bike I converted to flats – I’ve got some 17 degree salsa bars on it and it’s ridiculously comfy.

I may just have to do this. I have a set of Salsa 17 degree bars lying around actually!

Odd one.

I’m the same height as you, as is my Mrs and we both fit her small AWOL fine with the standard stem.

Definitely try some shallower, shorter bars, they might just make a difference.

It is really odd. I think I must be doing something massively wrong.

It looks to me like many of those bikes will offer a more comfortable position riding in the drops than on the hoods.

So maybe the AWOL was not designed with the intention of being set up for riding in a classic position with much lower bars and  hands on the hoods (despite being fitted with STIs which would normally be mostly used for riding on the hoods).

I get what you mean, but I don't see how bending down into the drops for a long period of time could possibly be comfortable.

my mate has a genesis croix de fer alfine 11, a lovely bike, but although it fitted him properly, he never found it very comfortable. So he took off the bars and shifter, removed the brakes and bought some shiny new kit to replace them.

Carbon dh bars, with bar ends and ergon grips, alfine sti shifter, zee brakes.

sounds like a dogs breakfast, but works brilliantly.

I may just have to do something like this, but I do worry about pouring more money into this, which has already cost a fair bit and doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

People are saying 550mm TT is long for a small bike – based on a std ~100mm road stem and 80-90mm reach bar yes, but a 60mm stem and 70mm short reach bar gives a very different fit. STA affects things a fair bit too. 550mm for a 5’5″ rider can work fine, TT length is only a part of it.

Awol is designed for big tyres and guards and the ISO std for toe overlap limits how short the TT can go, unless you go silly slack on the HTA.

Look at reach, and start with a saddle that’s more sensibly behind the BB. A Brooks on an inline post will mean you’re falling forwards however short the reach is. Maybe see a better fitter who works off balance not leg angles and all that formulaic stuff (he may be very skilled to be fair and you may have unusual proportions, I don’t know, but as soon as a fitter mentions perfect leg angles I’m out – esp if that ‘perfect’ angle comes from a saddle and post that puts you ~50mm further fwd than is common for a comfortable fit)

I feel like you’ve hit the nail on the head there. Comparing it with road bikes with a shorter TT that is designed for use with 100mm stems is pointless.

I couldn’t agree more with what you said about the inline post making you feel like you’re slipping off. That’s exactly how I felt riding it, and I had to have the seat at such a steep angle so I wasn’t falling or slipping off. I mentioned this to the fitter, and I’m surprised he didn’t catch onto this. He just said that I’ll be putting pressure on my nether regions with the seat at that angle.

You are all genuinely worrying me with your opinion on the fitter, because he seemed very knowledgeable and was lovely. I mean who do I listen to? I put the saddle back a bit which seems to have helped with the seating position, but not with my arms or the cockpit unfortunately.

The link Slowster posted has some good advice in it. Everyone has different methods but that’s as good as most. ^ this bit is key and OPs saddle set up might be the cause of it, as the linked document explains. If pedalling on flats with the foot well fwd on the pedal that is also likely to be linked to a well-fwd saddle position, all compensating for the saddle being n the wrong place and having a knock-on effect on wanting the bar to come closer.

I had a very similar problem with my Krampus, I kept trying to get closer to the bars, and I ended up with a 45mm stem with a headtube extender in order for it to be comfortable. For some reason, I tried setting the seat back, and I put a 100mm stem on it, and all of a sudden it was comfortable. This suggests that I’m doing something really wrong here, but I’ve tried a lot of different combinations and can’t seem to get anything right.

The Faran Fairlight is available in an excellent range of sizing options

https://fairlightcycles.com/faran/?v=79cba1185463

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/2117/fairlight-faran-review

The thing is though, your bars are still very high, higher than the saddle. You shouldn't really be bending your back alot, rather rolling your pelvis forward. Having the bars too high might prevent your from doing this as you'll stop yourself with your arms. Your saddle could well be too high aswell, which won't help things either. This is a more extreme position but it kind shows you the shape. No big bends in his back.

Thanks for the tip Shermer, but I think the nature of this thread has changed more from, what bike should I buy, to what the hell am I doing wrong?

The thing is though, your bars are still very high, higher than the saddle. You shouldn’t really be bending your back alot, rather rolling your pelvis forward. Having the bars too high might prevent your from doing this as you’ll stop yourself with your arms. Your saddle could well be too high aswell, which won’t help things either. This is a more extreme position but it kind shows you the shape. No big bends in his back.

Thanks for the reply. I think I get what you're saying. My back shouldn't be bent but rather it should be leaning forwards? I tried moving the stem further down, but it's still really uncomfortable. I took a picture of a my posture on it, to try and draw a comparison with how it should be. How do I look?

Where is it uncomfortable?

Shoulders? Arms? Hands?

Arse? Ballsack?

I reckon i could ride about 500 miles with a position like that before pain set in.

My arms feel really stretched and uncomfortable, as does my back. My arms feel like they're in a very unnatural position. Hence me asking for a bike with a shorter TT. If the drops were where the flat section was it would be comfortable, but that's with the raised stem. Even with this, it still feels too stretched down at the flats. I have flat bar bikes that fit me fine and that I've done 100km on, it just seems to be this that's the problem.

Is this your first drop bar bike?

It's difficult to tell based just on a single still photograph which only shows your legs in one position, which might be misleading. Neverthless...

It looks to me as if your saddle might still be too far forward and too high as well. One rough rule of thumb for saddle height is fully extending/locking the leg and still having the heel on the pedal (see page 5 of that link I posted). Looking at your photo, I doubt that your heel (in cycling shoes or low trainers as opposed to shoes with a high heel) would reach the pedal. I also suspect that it feels like you are going to fall forward if you take your hands off the bars.

As jameso said, you need to get the saddle position right before worrying about the bars. The link I posted points out how when you get the saddle position correct (or thereabouts - it's not about millimetre perfection) your upper body will be comfortably balanced (and not feel like you are on the verge of tipping forward). Bernard Hinault said that his position on the bike was such that he could have played the piano if it had been placed where his bars were (which is simply saying the same thing). Incidentally, I doubt you can ride no handed with your saddle in that position, because your body looks so poorly balanced.

You asked, so:

You are walking man.To become cycling man try:

Saddle height from pedal surface to middle of saddle creux = 109% of inside leg measured from floor to crotch.

Slide the saddle as far back as it goes on the rails as it looks too far forward.  Why a Brooks? They have short rails and many people find them less than comfortable, try some others.

The saddle angle is nose down, if you find a saddle that is comfortable flat it won't throw you forward and put excessive weight on your arms.

The bar position looks as if it would be fine if your bum were rotated anticlockwise around the BB. Upper arms at 90° to the body with the arms slightly bent is usually comfortable as the shoulder and arm muscles are under less stress.

Slowster's right.

The article he's linked too really is  easy to understand and will get you in the right ballpark.

I've found it echos much of my own experience, but everyone is different.

For some reason, I tried setting the seat back, and I put a 100mm stem on it, and all of a sudden it was comfortable.

Crouch down into a skier downhill tuck, weight over balls of your feet. Now reach forward with your arms - to not fall forward you'll need to stick your backside out more, spreading your weight fore-aft and keeping your c of g over your feet. It's not my example, just one from a related, classic bike fitting article, the basis of balaced position on a bike. In the same way if your saddle pitches you too far fwd over the BB, no bar position can put you back in balance. Get the saddle right in the way the guide linked to up the thread describes and go from there.

Maybe drop the saddle a bit more (inside leg x 0.883, Lemond method, is about the only fitting formula I've found useful as a guide) and get it back another 10mm if you can, see how that feels. The bike looks about right as it is now but that's no indication of whether it'll be comfy for you. Bars needn't be too low, esp if you ride in the drops a fair bit.

If you can't get it right, look up Torke Cycling - he's a proper fitter and will get you sorted.

This is a more extreme position but it kind shows you the shape. No big bends in his back.

To be fair though, in that position that guy is supporting a lot more of his weight than most of us could by pushing f'in hard on the pedals..

It’s difficult to tell based just on a single still photograph which only shows your legs in one position, which might be misleading. Neverthless…

It looks to me as if your saddle might still be too far forward and too high as well. One rough rule of thumb for saddle height is fully extending/locking the leg and still having the heel on the pedal (see page 5 of that link I posted). Looking at your photo, I doubt that your heel (in cycling shoes or low trainers as opposed to shoes with a high heel) would reach the pedal. I also suspect that it feels like you are going to fall forward if you take your hands off the bars.

As jameso said, you need to get the saddle position right before worrying about the bars. The link I posted points out how when you get the saddle position correct (or thereabouts – it’s not about millimetre perfection) your upper body will be comfortably balanced (and not feel like you are on the verge of tipping forward). Bernard Hinault said that his position on the bike was such that he could have played the piano if it had been placed where his bars were (which is simply saying the same thing). Incidentally, I doubt you can ride no handed with your saddle in that position, because your body looks so poorly balanced.

I always thought it was when the ball of your foot touches the pedal, your leg should be fully extended, not your heel.

Feeling like I'm going to fall off if I take my hands off the bars is literally EXACTLY how I felt when I was riding it.

That makes so much sense. I'll try and get the saddle right, and I'm currently going through the link which is super helpful, thanks so much. I'm currently adjusting everything, though there seems to be only so much setback I can put.

Is this your first drop bar bike?

It is!

Saddle height from pedal surface to middle of saddle creux = 109% of inside leg measured from floor to crotch.

Slide the saddle as far back as it goes on the rails as it looks too far forward.  Why a Brooks? They have short rails and many people find them less than comfortable, try some others.

The saddle angle is nose down, if you find a saddle that is comfortable flat it won’t throw you forward and put excessive weight on your arms.

The bar position looks as if it would be fine if your bum were rotated anticlockwise around the BB. Upper arms at 90° to the body with the arms slightly bent is usually comfortable as the shoulder and arm muscles are under less stress.

I've tried sliding the saddle back and am currently reading the guide linked. I'm not too sure what you mean by the last bit though.

Crouch down into a skier downhill tuck, weight over balls of your feet. Now reach forward with your arms – to not fall forward you’ll need to stick your backside out more, spreading your weight fore-aft and keeping your c of g over your feet. It’s not my example, just one from a related, classic bike fitting article, the basis of balaced position on a bike. In the same way if your saddle pitches you too far fwd over the BB, no bar position can put you back in balance. Get the saddle right in the way the guide linked to up the thread describes and go from there.

Maybe drop the saddle a bit more (inside leg x 0.883, Lemond method, is about the only fitting formula I’ve found useful as a guide) and get it back another 10mm if you can, see how that feels. The bike looks about right as it is now but that’s no indication of whether it’ll be comfy for you. Bars needn’t be too low, esp if you ride in the drops a fair bit.

If you can’t get it right, look up Torke Cycling – he’s a proper fitter and will get you sorted.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation. And if I can't get it right, I'll give him a look up! Hope I can get it sorted for tomorrow!

Dawes Galaxy Plus? One here for sale Gumtree a few days back  (not mine) - may be v similar to the AWOL though

https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/dawes-galaxy-plus-53cm-new-condition-/1287764019

Or an old Dawes Sardar?  Reynolds 653, discs, 26 inch wheels and IIRC shorter top tube but not sure.  It was a compact touring bike, with high front end.  Finding one may be another issue ... proverbial rocking horse poo...

It may be that the precepts informing your decision are wrong

why not get a proper bike fit , ignoring angles and ratios , and see where that leads

scherritt knoesen in the south or

Garry Kirk in the north will sort you out

have a look at Felt vrw bikes for your current aspirations

good luck

It looks to me as if your saddle might still be too far forward and too high as well.

I'm not an expert but that was my exact first thought on seeing the picture, too. Although you're not wearing shoes there.

One point to note: with flat pedals you will almost always want the saddle slightly lower than with cleats, and most guidance for road bikes will assume cleats. So do try dropping the saddle a little to see how you get on. If your hips rock while pedalling it's too high.

My first thought on looking at the pic of your bike was that I wouldn't use that saddle with dropbars.

I have a couple like that, they're great saddles for long days, but they work better with a more upright position IMO. There's not enough fore and aft room (again just my opinion), I'd use a saddle with a longer body and less seat.

Your position looks ok, at worst a tweak or two away from spot on.

How did you get on?

What a coincidence! I just came on STW for the first time in a quite while and saw this!

I decided to just purchase a Brooks B17 rather than delay any longer, the go-to touring saddle as the B67 is clearly for a more upright position and attempting to persevere with it is futile. I actually had a ride lined up - London to Brussels, which I found a week and half before it started. I bought the saddle, and didn't really have any time to get used to it before the ride, but from my initial impressions, I really liked it. I messed around a little with the seating position, placing it further back, and used a 50mm stem to negate the long TT.

I kind of just threw myself in the deep end, and for the first two days of riding, more than anything, my arms hurt massively. Funnily enough, one of the girls I was riding with, she had just bought a drop bar bike, and had the exact same problem. We guessed that maybe we just weren't used to the position, and on day 3, the arm pain disappeared almost completely as my body gradually naturally adapted to the new position. So a lot of my fit problems were fixed, and I think what some of you said was correct - I just wasn't used to the position. Also, I really have this aversion to wearing any sort of spandex/lycra, despite the insistence of almost everyone I know who cycles. So prior to going on the trip, they forced me to take a few pairs of cycling shorts, but after the middle of the second day, good lord I needed them. I don't think I couldn't have done it without!

After the first two days, I was fine riding for miles on end, and at the end of the day, I'd want to ride more, because I just couldn't get enough of it! It's almost addictive. I had a pretty amazing time - I've wanted to tour for quite a while now and it far surpassed any expectations I ever had. Usually we dream up something so big, it can never live up to any expectations, but in this case it went far beyond them. What made it really great though wasn't just the place - it was the company. I think it would have been a very different experience doing it alone. I'm trying to find some more rides to do this easter break!

Oh, and I just need to get a pesky dynamo wheelset built up for it now! Can't seem to find one anywhere so it seems I'm just going to have to shell out and build it up myself.

Try sjs cycles for dynamo wheels

The reason I ask is that I have the same issue.
T-rex arms.
Also short legs.

It seems when I receive advice, that bit gets forgotten.
Which is the key element.
Like, for example, in your photo of you, your arms are fully outstretched.
Aren't we meant to have a bend at the elbows?
I went for a bike fit and that is what he said to achieve.
Now imagine your elbows bent and I would say that it would look like you would want a shorter tt and maybe higher bars?
But people suggest that the bars should be lower than the saddle.
But, that is for a 'normal person'. Now, if you are 'normal' Imagine your bars 3 inches further away. That is our scenario.

When the fitter got my angles set to what they 'should' be, I was amazed at how close my bars should be to my body. Bear in mind that we with little limbs have ridden bikes too long forever. I just always thought everyone stretched out.
I have also always ridden in pain. Only found out recently that people don't.
Always had numb feet and legs as well. Turns out that is not normal either.

If you lift your hands off the bars, do you slip forwards?
Do you find yourself 'reaching' for the bars or are you using the bars to hold yourself back on the saddle?

I haven't sussed it yet, myself, I am trying to work out what my next step is.

Just to give an idea, my torso is the same length as people 5'10 to 5'11".
When I sit down, my eyes are level with theirs.
I am 5'7".
I think my arms are in proportion to my legs.

Grarea- I have the same problem! 5’7” and short arms and legs.

Ah hah, so, there are a few of us normal people around eh?
We should start a club.

Have you solved it?

I have tended towards MTB because I find the pain less.
I think it is because one is constantly moving around the bike that it doesn't matter so much.

I rather like the idea of a couple of other bikes.
A pure road one plus a 'utility' bike. But I want to be able to wander off down tracks and rough bridleways with it and kind of 'tour'. Or, in my language, 'mooch'.

I have had way too much weight on my hands, so I was reading to get your saddle further back.
So I picked up a 67 degree STA and had to set that even further back with a set back seatpost, but it was so efficient, it was wrong in every way. But it was nice to not have weight on my hands.

Anyway, I think I am more pushing myself back onto my saddle.
That and combined with the fact that I am reaching further out plus the fact that with a longer torso you are relatively higher from the bars. Plus you are leaning further down to reach the bars.

I got a really adjustable bars.
Eventually I gave up and went for a bike fit.
He set me up with all the angles (It isn't solved yet as I think he might be taking December off and also I need a different frame as I can't get forward enough) and the distance between the centre of my saddle rails and my bars is approx 62cm.
Bars are still above saddle atm.

In an ideal world I would like drops for both my 'mooch/cx' bike and my roadie.
That may not happen I guess.
Trouble is, the smaller the frame, the lower the bars are compared to saddle.
Also, as sizes get smaller, the sta steepens which normally means that the reach is exactly the same.
Same with women's bikes. I think they mean they have put narrower bars on the same bike.

So, I think I might just have to pick up a very cheap bike or two and see where I get with them.
Just not sure where to start.

Anyway....... Blah blah blah