[Closed] Road Speed: Wheels/Tyres vs Body Position

4

Wheels and tyres will certainly make a difference. I have three wheelsets for my Amazon.

650x47 Byways. Most comfy. Hardest work.

700x40 Nanos. Faster off road usually. Not as comfy.

700x28 Marathons. Faster than the other two on the road. By some margin. Not really for off-road use so retained for longer tarmac tours.

The stem is currently angled up but I have tried flipping it on longer road rides in an effort to get a more streamlined position. I'm not convinced it makes a huge difference, especially as I'm then less likely to ride in the drops for as long.

I also have a carbon road bike with 700x28 GP4Seasons that is fastest but then also has a more streamlined riding position, so it does make a difference but only really when combined with other factors

I would suggest not giving a shit about how you compare to other people on Strava, otherwise you’ll be constantly throwing money and emotional turmoil at it and you still won’t be riding further or faster than everyone else.

Ride it. If something’s spoiling your ride, fix it. But it sounds like the only thing spoiling it at the moment is Strava.

4.

Who cares about the boring road bits, sit up enjoy the view, then get the head down when you go offroad and rip it up.

I would go with 4 as well.

I am much lower down the strava boards on road sections as road riders are much faster than me, may be riding in groups etc,. I am also much higher on off road sections and even have some KOMs but the numbers of riders logging times are lower on most off road segments (100s rather than 1,000s)

Give me the fastest road bike in the world and it will only make a slightly difference as I am so far behind the fast riders on the road so it is of no importance. If you enjoy Strava and want to get higher positions focus on the areas that you have a chance in doing so i.e. off road rather than on road.

2. Switch to a lighter 700c wheelset with something around 40mm tyres (e.g. gravelking or G-one speed). More expensive than option 1, presumably a greater benefit, but how much?

3. Try to make myself a bit more aerodynamic by fitting narrower bars and lowering the front end. My gut feeling is that this will have the biggest effect, but I’m really reluctant to go down this route. As I said, it’s by far the most comfortable road bike I’ve ever ridden and I’m sure the high and wide front end has a lot to do with this. It’s also great off-road.

4. Accept that a comfortable “touring” bike is always going to be slower than a “race” bike and just enjoy it for what it is.

I don't think 1 will make enough difference to be worth the bother. so 2, but <28mm tyres if you want anything approaching the zipp of a road bike.

3, no pain no gain. If you want to go fast you need to push the saddle forwards, and the bars forwards and down. It's not supposed to be easy. If it was we would join the e-bikers in telling everyone that's still wet behind the ears that our e-bikes are just as much effort as a real one.

4, all or nothing, what's the point of gaining 5% of the leaderboard (did the bottom 20% have punctures, stop for cake or something?), you'll just be sat there thinking "I'm in the bottom 25%, if I bought some narrower tyres and slammed my stem I might be a bit faster".

I wouldn’t worry about your road section times on rides where you’re mostly riding off road. You’ll just compromise your fun on the good bits.

If the road bits are killing you that much then get a road bike and do some 100% road bike rides sometimes.

I prefer mtb overall, but the speed /
Zip of my road bike is getting quite addictive - especially as I’m losing weight and getting fitter in my drive toward doing a triathlon in the summer.

I’ll still be nowhere near the proper fast roadies - that takes immense dedication to get there and I’d need to probably lose a couple of stone to get even vaguely competitive on hills.

It sounds like you have a sweet spot on the bike, don't ruin it chasing speed.

No idea what your tyres are actually like, but if as you say they're pretty fast rolling anyway, you won't gain much speed unless you're going fast enough that the aero benefits of a narrower tyre would matter (at which point you're massively sacrificing versatility.). And unless you need to do 100 miles fast, just enjoy it.

Winter riding is always slower, regardless of the bike (speaking as someone who's tried to make their winter bike faster with only very limited success). Your clothing has to be more flappy, you're carrying the extra weight of the clothing, often it's windy and wet, and even the temperature can slow you a bit.

Of course if you can geek out on rolling resistance tests and find that you could get some tyres that would work just as well off road with lower rolling resistance, go for it. It's free speed*. Body position might well make more of a difference, particularly at higher speeds, but for obvious reasons you'll not want to change that.

So a long winded "4" from me.

*may involve getting more punctures/tyres not lasting so long.

Honestly, what is the real-world difference between 20% and 50% on Strava? A couple of minutes per hour? If you're not racing, what does it matter as long the bike is comfortable.

the absolute answer is (3) and to give an extreme example I am 2 minutes quicker at our local 10 mile TT (airfield circuit) on my TT bike vs my racey road bike with the exact same wheels swapped between them. Its my position not the aero tube design that makes the difference on the TT bike.

But really, (4). Neither your bike nor your rides are about KOMs.

Swop the bike for a 2020 Roubaix. I didn't believe the hype about faster frame and better aerodynamics until I bought one and unbelievably, it's faster than my old 2014 Roubaix, more comfortable, copes fine with gravelly stuff and seems like the ideal all-purpose road bike. I went out recently with the local shop chaingang and the ride leader commented that it seemed to be a fast bike on flats and downhills. Uphill it's no faster because I'm only winter fit!

Did my little private TT yesterday, only 9 miles but quite hilly and the new bike took 4 minutes off my usual time on the 2014 Roubaix and was only a minute slower than the lightweight summer hooligan bike. It weighs 1 kg more so the only explanation can be the stiffer frame with no noodly "shock absorbing" stays and the better aerodynamics.

Thanks for all the responses folks. Some interesting stuff in there.

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly bothered by my position on Strava per se. Those days are long gone. I was just struck by the big difference between my position on the road and off road sections of the same ride. So, it was just evidence that the bike has a clear off-road (gravel) bias really, which is fair enough, that's what it was designed for (and what I bought it for).

I do have an old "race" bike. Light, stiff, tight clearances, steep angles and 23c GP4000 tyres. If I really cared about going fast on the road I'd ride that, but the simple fact is that I don't enjoy riding it for any more than an hour or so and would have no desire to try a century ride on it.

The stem is currently angled up but I have tried flipping it on longer road rides in an effort to get a more streamlined position. I’m not convinced it makes a huge difference, especially as I’m then less likely to ride in the drops for as long.

This is a good point. I pretty much never use the drops on the race bike as it's quite uncomfortable enough on the hoods. It was quite a revelation when I got the gravel bike to find that I was happy hanging out on the drops for fairly long periods. There is probably a fair bit I could do to improve my body position through improving core strength and flexibility if I'm honest.

So, I guess I'm leaning to 4 now too 🙂

A lorry is not a race car. 4.

This is a good point. I pretty much never use the drops on the race bike as it’s quite uncomfortable enough on the hoods.

Position is wrong. Raise the bars by 2-4 cm and bring them a little closer (maybe a 1 cmon the stem). I ride about a third of my time on the drops. THey really are wonderful things when used properly. To test your position, when riding on the hoods, your elbows should have an angle of about 150-160 degrees, some bend helps absorb impacts. Most people have almost locked elbows and are reaching too far.

Since my collar bone break and capsular release op I've lost so much shoulder strength that more than 2 hours 30 on the roadie gets quite uncomfortable so I'm concentrating on shorter, better quality rides. If that means driving the boring bits to ride somewhere nicer, so be it. But like the OP I can see myself selling the summer bike, which feels incredibly stretched out and racy nowadays.

Honestly, what is the real-world difference between 20% and 50% on Strava? A couple of minutes per hour?

Just checked out of interest. On one hill I'm 4611/9115 with a time of 24.29, pretty much bang on 50% and I was trying hard (although on the front so not sharing the work, but it's a hill I'm familiar with so it was fairly well paced).

Never ridden that hill on a cross bike though so don't know where I'd end up.

I was just struck by the big difference between my position on the road and off road sections of the same ride. So, it was just evidence that the bike has a clear off-road (gravel) bias

I wouldn't draw that conclusion; at least, not without a bit more digging.

I would imagine that the road sections see a much higher proportion of people who are out there to smash it on Strava, primarily in the summer months. Whereas the off-road sections… probably not so much. It probably includes lots of people pottering about on mountain bikes come rain or shine. So you won't be comparing apples with apples: the two halves of your mixed-surface rides probably involve mixing with totally different demographics, motivations and equipment. You could probably fit 25mm slicks and still be proportionally higher up the off-road charts than the on-road ones.

If you care about the on-road performance of this bike then you need to compare it with what you've done on a "proper" road bike in similar conditions. Maybe you have the same Strava segments recorded on both, maybe you just have some average speeds etc, maybe you even still have a "proper" road bike. There's no point comparing your current bike to self-selecting bulk data sets on Strava unless you did the exact same thing with your previous bike; and you certainly can't infer a "terrain bias" from the numbers you've looked at.

I've no idea what "nice" road tyre models are available in 27.5" wheel size, but get something at least for the front tyre that makes a smoother transition from the rim to the tyre sidewalls when tyre is inflated, by all means get something a little wider for the rear for comfort.

Playing with the position of the bars (further forward, lower down, narrower) will vastly decrease your aero drag the faster you can go maintain above ~15mph, but probably at the cost of comfort.

I've only ever done one 100-miler and it was a very long day, comfort becomes increasingly important the longer you are in the saddle.

Position is wrong. Raise the bars by 2-4 cm and bring them a little closer (maybe a 1 cmon the stem). I ride about a third of my time on the drops. THey really are wonderful things when used properly. To test your position, when riding on the hoods, your elbows should have an angle of about 150-160 degrees, some bend helps absorb impacts. Most people have almost locked elbows and are reaching too far.

I've been debating my position, I'm happy with it and can ride in the drops almost indefinitely. 6ft, average proportions, 56cm frame (old cannondale with fairly steep and geometry) with 110mm stem and 15mm of spacers.

But I have quite an anterior tilt to my pelvis, once guy I ride with commented my back is almost concave when on the more upright cross bike! Which means getting low has never been an issue (apart from going numb!). I'm thinking I could swap to one of the ISM saddles and shift it forwards (and up slightly) and fit a 130mm stem. By opening up the angle between my legs and torso I could get my shoulders lower/back flatter without knees hitting ribs and get my forearms flatter. More like a TT bikes position.

More like a TT bikes position.

TT position is almost entirely down to rotation of the whole position - saddle forward brings the front down for the same hip angle. I'm not stupid low, but have never had numbness.

Back to gravel - aero position will make you faster on any bike, but I like to be more upright and on the drops to provide maximum control. Bumps can dislodge your hands when riding on the hoods.

saddle forward brings the front down for the same hip angle.

Yea, I was thinking if the saddle and bars were both ~20mm forwards my elbows would be quite a bit lower. I find that if I'm riding on my own on a short 1hr-1hr30-ish ride I'm quicker on the hoods with my arms flat, then use the drops when I need to get up a climb and/or need a break.

I wouldn’t draw that conclusion; at least, not without a bit more digging.

I would imagine that the road sections see a much higher proportion of people who are out there to smash it on Strava, primarily in the summer months. Whereas the off-road sections… probably not so much.

Exactly my thinking and backed up by my own positioning on Strava as I said above. Give me an uphill gravel segment and I will be in top 1%, give me a uphill tarmac section and I will be in the top 10% if I am lucky and most of the time in the top 15%. On the flat on the road, forget it.
Nothing to do with the bike, everything to do with a lot of fast road riders who are faster than me uphill but don't ride off road.

What, you mean I'm not a gravel riding god? This thread has gone downhill fast 🙂

Yea, I was thinking if the saddle and bars were both ~20mm forwards my elbows would be quite a bit lower

This only really works because on TT bike, the forard position puts a lot more weight spread across the elbow pads and extensions. On a drop bar bike it kills the wrists! The previous gods of TT could do this, but tended to just crank down the hip angle on a 73 degree seat tube angle.

This thread has gone downhill fast

Which is more than you have 😂

I'm tempted by a faster-rolling, thinner 650 tyre that would fit a fairly wide rim but being tubeless I doubt I could be bothered with the hassle of swapping. I can't see it would be any faster than a 700 wheel anyway and I already have that option.

Oh - the 28mm tyres on my "road bike* don't seem to be much/any slower than the 23mm ones I took off and offer more comfort on a longer ride. I'm a convert.

Which is more than you have 😂

Touche 🙂

I think the problem with the 700c option is that I probably would have to go down to something like a 28mm tyre to really see a difference and that feels like a step too far (for now at least). I do love the feels of the 47mm tyres. Maybe I'll just accept that comfort (and the option to nip down that interesting looking trail to see where it goes) means more to me than speed these days.

Thanks everyone for all the interesting comments. They have provided a lot of good food for thought.

@Bez / @kerley you're right, my conclusions aren't really supported by the data. I do have some stats from my road bike, but they are all over five years ago and mostly in the summer. I lost interest in road riding around then and switch almost entirely to off-road. It's only since picking up the gravel machine that my interest in the road has been rekindled.

Going down the Jan Heine route of tyre choice my own finding is that 650bx48 is very comfy and reassuring but x38 is actually for long days a better compromise (meaning 4 days of 100 mile+ with lightweight pack for point to point routes).

Thanks @aP I'm a bit concerned about dropping the BB another 10mm as it's already lower than it would be with 700c wheels. But it hasn't been a problem so far, it's a fairly easy thing to try and it's not as though I'm doing anything remotely gnarly on this bike anyway. So I'll keep it in mind as something to try out for longer summer (mostly) road rides.

I guess I could always compromise and go for the 650 x 42 Babyshoe Pass 🙂

Are you riding for enjoyment or Strava bragging?

If the latter, start training.

I get where you're coming from OP - part of the fun of the road bits is going fast. Or at least feeling like you are going fast. All I do on those bits though is put myself in a cool-looking* aero** position and concentrate on nice smooth pedalling. Dunno if it makes me faster but I feel faster so it's more fun.

*not measured
** also not measured

I like road speed but also 4 from me. If you piss about with it you'll end up with a bike that is both a poor road bike and a poor gravel bike. Let it do what it's been designed to do.

If you want to set a good PB for a century, it'll come down to the route you choose, and how long you can sit and pedal for without getting tired or needing to stop and stretch your neck and/or legs cos you're in agony after 4 hours.

Fitting 700c wheels with thinner tyres with a fast carcass is sensible though, granted. Do that and enjoy the scenery.

My guess is you seem fast on the gravel.sections because a small number of cyclists bimble them, conversely a large number of fit people ride the road sections, making you looks slow.

Only fitness will make any significant inroads into the latter, though more aero might help a bit and lighter tyres might feel faster.