[Closed] Road rage assault on cyclist - victim sought

I like waiting at lights. Gives me a chance to catch my breath. On the whole, I side with the mouthy cyclist this time - can't be arsed typing my feelings out so HoratioHufnagel +1.

Cyclist initially did nothing wrong but was extremely aggressive after catching up - leaning right in and angrily shouting like that. I'd have felt pretty threatened - wouldn't have got out and lamped him though.

I just wonder how people manage to get through the day when they get into a furious rage so easily. When I was commuting by bike I saw worse than that fairly regularly. Escalating the situation is never wise IMO.

the flow chart seems to suggest the cylist was in the right up until the bit when he chased down the audi and swore . really you would expect a bigger push to prosecute drivers who enter asl's as if complied with they certainly are a safty feature for cyclists . Most drivers in citys seem congenitaly incapable of stopping on stop lines we could probably pay off the national debt if they all got done for it.

was the car that jumped the red light and shot passed aggressive or threatening or just the cyclist swearing?

I dont disagree with what you say but you cannot overlook that the car driver did the same first - neither are acts I wish to defend nor overlook tbh but only one lot were illegal.
It could have ben avoided by either behaving differently.

[quote=Rscott ]First words with driver exceptable as driver was wrong to do what he did but chasing him down and confronting a second time makes them both as bad as each other.

Swearing at somebody (not illegal) is just as bad as punching somebody (illegal) and crossing white line into ASL box (illegal)?

I'm not suggesting the cyclist was right to chase down the car and swear at them (for a start he clearly didn't need to try that hard to catch the car at the next set of lights), but his actions don't excuse anything any of the occupants of the car did, which were all totally out of proportion.

Edit: read a bit more now

Age sex location box?

He says the car ran over his foot. Not sure I'd be able to cycle that fast if my foot had just been run over. But if he was telling the truth, wouldn't you swear at the person who'd done it? I'm sure I would.

Reverse the situation. Cyclist does something that the driver thinks is out of order. 1st he reverses up and tells him. Then when the cyclist zooms off, driver follows him, gets up close to him at the next lights and starts swearing his head off and calling names. Cyclist punches him. Driver zooms off sheepishly. You'd all be hailing the cyclist a hero for standing up to the aggressive nasty Audi-driving bully. Think about it! 😀

aracer - Member

Swearing at somebody (not illegal)
[...]

Do you disagree with damo2576's point about Public Order offences?

Threatening, abusive or insulting language in a public place falls under the Public Order Act. It an offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting language with the intention of causing someone else harassment, alarm or distress.

Magnatoms's Flow Chart. Firstly, it's just some bloke's view of how to use an ASL. He's entitled to his view, but I'd I drew a venn diagram or whatever it might look nice butit wouldn't be any more authoritative than it just being my opinion. Secondly, every time Mags posts a video, and he does a lot, he gets slagged off by people criticising him for doing so. In fact, by people saying exactly the same sort of things here. This forum seems to gave a high proportion of people who don't understand city riding...

Think about it

Thought about it and your wrong; no one would be celebrating a cyclists doing something illegal then assaulting a person.

Suggest you think about it..again.

dont understand who is seeking the cyclist or why

Swearing is not illegal per se. I find it hard to see anything that could be the foot getting run over on the video and from the cyclists lack of interest in the Audi until the Audi driver drives into the ASL nothing to suggest a prior incident.

[i]dont understand who is seeking the cyclist or why[/i]

I think it's the 'this is awful, something ought to be done about it' instinct kicking in.

The actual victim's probably trying to forget all about it whilst the world of social media is doing it's usual 'let's be detectives and find someone who may not want to be found' thing.

Plus someones got a good video of it and it woudl be a shame to waste it.

+1 for thank god I don't live in London.... & so many people. That's what I would struggle with the most.... wherever you go there's always somebody there...Where I live I can literally cycle 5 minutes and be on deserted rural roads.

I have just studied the clip again.......and in hindsight, the cyclist deffo got his just deserts..... 😀

The video should have been titled 'overly aggressive, confontational **** gets his comeuppance' saying he didn't deserve it is just dumb, he chased after someone then approached him screaming abuse in a threatening manner, personaly I'd see him a threat thinking he could resort to violance anytime and would have smacked him too.
If that was a lone women in the car he would have no doubt acted the same and left her scared sh1tless.
It's the only time I've ever wanted to congratulate an audi driver!

Anyhow, I thought this was a mountain bike forum, what are a load of roadies doing on here starting arguments? I don't remember seeing any audis on any "singletrack" I've been on.

Ian, I've thought about it again, and I think I still have a valid point. Maybe you wouldn't hail him a hero but my point was that the tone of a lot of peoples replies may be somewhat different. I'm not siding with either, and in my reply on page one, I already stated that the driver wasn't justified in punching him, just highlighting an alternative way of looking at the situation - that the cyclist was the aggressor in the confrontation.

There's a surprising number of people on this thread who have no idea what the ASL is for. Given that, perhaps the driver can be excused for not knowing either. Mind you, drivers have to undergo compulsory testing before being allowed out on their own. Perhaps if cyclists were too we'd have fewer folk excusing this ones illegal behavior.

Edit: wunundred!!

cyclist was in the right, in london its safer to fill up the width of the ASL zone rather than form a long queue in the gutter alongside cars/vans and lorrys. It feels a very unsafe place to sit if there are lots of cyclists.

sure the bike rider over reacted but he did not deserve the assault.

We watched this at work a few times and the drivers door is ajar when the guy gets out, then he gets back in the drivers side. Surely its the driver that did the punching and he just put his jumper back on after his fisty cuffs..

Driver is a tool and needs a fine, forward it to the rozzas and let them decide. If they can charge people for speeding via youtube videos they can sort this out easily enough.

Hmm.

Initial incident? Yep, nothing wrong with a little polite remonstration with the car driver, who at that point was certainly in the wrong. After that? Just leg him go off on his merry way to wrap his car around a lamp post or something. Perhaps even raise an eyebrow and say to a fellow cyclist, "What an idiot, eh?"

However, to chase him down? Asshat. Needless confrontation. What did he hope to achieve?

Something unrealistic like an apology from the driver and an admission of their driving error - i never chase down as they never do this so I agree it is pointless. That said the assault us still an assault and that [ and the RLJ] are by far the worse offences here and we should focus in that rather than point out how the victim could have avoided it - they always could have done something different but they are always still the victim.

but his actions don't excuse anything any of the occupants of the car did, which were all totally out of proportion.

gets his comeuppance' saying he didn't deserve it is just dumb, he chased after someone then approached him screaming abuse in a threatening manner, personaly I'd see him a threat thinking he could resort to violance anytime and would have smacked him too.

Chances are the cyclist would be done for a public order offence if he did come forward, even if it meant the passenger got done for assault.

Nothing stopping the police ticketing the driver straight away for the ASL offence if they're that concerned about it.

one thing I would like to add.......the driver punches like a girl... 😀

Chances are the cyclist would be done for a public order offence if he did come forward, even if it meant the passenger got done for assault.

Love how he's got another girly haymaker wound up and ready to go should the cyclist suddenly decide to stand up for himself. You can hear in the cyclists voice as he shouts 'EFFING PR1CK, YOU Nearly ran over my foot mate', by the time he gets to nearly ran over my foot, he's looked in the car and didn't like what he saw. At that point all the aggression has suddenly drained out of him to be replaced by a little fear at what may be about to happen. His voice goes very meek at the end of his sentence.

EDIT : Just to add, yes the car occupants are in the wrong

From that clip it was the cyclists right to sit anywhere within the box but why the need to backup alongside his car- that'd worry me as a driver that he'd catch the paint. Soo many points where the cyclist could have let it go.

Sorry, unless you are willing/able to escalate then you should chalk up any remarks/provocation. I've waved my hand in the air before/done the shake beans-thing and had someone slam on for instance.

My point (badly expressed) was that the cyclist probably won't bother coming forward for that reason, so the police should get on with the traffic offence, as that's clear-cut.

You would have thought that the system was broken if they couldn't locate and haul in the passenger in for a chat about the incident on the basis of third-party video alone.

asterix - Member

dont understand who is seeking the cyclist or why

I don't know, is it because they've got witnesses and proof of 2 different crimes committed within about 1 minute, and they'd quite like the raging cock who committed them to not do it again?

can I get a top-tube friendly printout of that flow chart, so i can examine it carefully as I approach ASLs? 😉

that'd worry me as a driver that he'd catch the paint. Soo many points where the cyclist could have let it go.

Q. Where did the cyclist disappear off to? I didn't see any right turn that he might otherwise have taken if he hadn't been so caught up in his little war.

Junkyard especially around Manchester you could possibly be looking at serious harm. Is it really really worth standing up for your right when faced with a 2ton lump of metal and/or god knows what contained within?

I read recently that the road rager you experience didn't just kick off at you, he'll have gotten out of the bed angry and been slowly building up until someone causes him to spill over the edge.

Let that person be someone else.

Last night someone tried indicating into my lane whilst alongside me - I gave him a short-beep to alert him that I was there- he flashed me pulled alongside and said 'dont you know what an indicator means pal'.

I explained to him about hatchings/give-way and indicators don't mean you have a right to change lane, only when safe to do so. There were two blokes in the car. Afterwards mrshora pointed out that I was right but surely 'was it worth it' (just incase?).

No I guess.

Let that person be someone else.

Agreed. It's just not worth getting angry, in a car, on a bike, on foot, whatever. Just let it slide.

hora, nail on the head mate.
with some of the folk knocking around the city centers nowadays I try to avoid as much confrontation as possible.
you may think you are a bit tough or such.....but there are far far worse folk knocking about.

you may think you are a bit tough or such.....but there are far far worse folk knocking about.

Yep- plus you can be a pretty good puncher but some folk literally are one-punch hitters who even when your down wont stop.

^^And if Mr Fist Pie himself says that...^^

😉

Is it really really worth standing up for your right when faced with a 2ton lump of metal

As for the rest whilst you may be correct they are still the victim of the asshat and not the cause.

I agree its almost always unwise to say anything to a driver as they dont go oh fair point mate i am so sorry i will alter my driving but , if someone does moan, it does not justify an assault and that is what we should be focusing on here

PS its amazing how many folk think an indicator gives them the right of way

seriously, I now go out of my way on my daily commute, to try and not annoy or upset anyone.
people and times have changed, and there are some pretty nasty angry folk knocking around. I love my canalside commute.

[quote=drlex]

aracer - Member
Swearing at somebody (not illegal)
[...]

I disagree that he posted the whole text of that part of the Public Order Act (including the defences). In reply to martinhutch, absolutely zero chance that could be proved beyond reasonable doubt given the statutory defence, and the CPS guidelines make it fairly clear that no charge would be brought for such an incident. No such defence available for driving into an ASL box or punching somebody.

I don't think anybody disputes that the cyclist was unwise to chase down the car, but that's not actually the point, and absolutely [b]nothing[/b] the cyclist does leads to him deserving a punch. I do wonder that some people on here seem to think there are circumstances in which violence is reasonable behaviour.

[quote=martinhutch ]You would have thought that the system was broken if they couldn't locate and haul in the passenger in for a chat about the incident on the basis of third-party video alone.

I think we all know the system is badly broken.

^ exactly ton. Let the rats fight among themselves.
You can be in the right all day long but making your point all the time or shouting about it will sooner or later get you punched. Reason and legality doesn't come into it at that time.
I don't believe in meekly giving bullying types their way but life lessons and common sense say pick your battles if you must have them and be aware of how it can end up. I've had a guy get out of a car and jab a screwdriver in my neck - how do you handle that?

Must have been your fault though jameso 😉

On a serious note though, that's awful, exactly the reason why I do my best to avoid any confrontations these days, there's no point going round like some kind of vigilante road-rules enforcer, as at some point its going to end in tears. Don't let the losers ruin your day!

Slightly OT but the Police really do have their hands full. There are some really really nasty pieces of work out there. They are working hard just to keep us at a civil level nevermind a traffic/cyclist spat ontop.

I agree it is not how I react.

That said the driver is the illegal one End of the their fault. Cyclist is at worst unwise driver at best a criminal

Plus when you hear a cyclist shouting at a car it always looks abit embarrassing/crap on the cyclist IMO. I never think 'go brother/etc' just ooo bit embarrassing/someones lost it.

I don't want to be 'right' laying in a coffin.

seriously, I now go out of my way on my daily commute, to try and not annoy or upset anyone.

+1, this is what I've been getting at in my earlier posts.

Although the cyclist was doing nothing wrong from a LEGAL point of view (initially anyway) by taking the ASL, he was (IMHO) unwise to do so since it caused an unnecessary boxing in of the car.

Being right is no real defence when faced with a cock in a tonne of car. No, of course the driver shouldn't have reacted in that way but neither should the cyclist have chased him down.

Look at the video right from the start - there's a sensible queue of cyclists in the left hand lane. All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside. Sure it was [b]legal[/b] but that doesn't make it the [b]right[/b] course of action for that particular situation.

And as others have said, as soon as the situation escalated, he should just have ridden off.

You can be in the right all day long but making your point all the time or shouting about it will sooner or later get you punched. Reason and legality doesn't come into it at that time.

^^ what jameso said

Look at the video right from the start - there's a sensible queue of cyclists in the left hand lane. All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside. Sure it was legal but that doesn't make it the right course of action for that particular situation.

Much like AlturaMan, who we all see every day. Everyone else waiting patiently in the ASL, he rolls through the rest of us, positioning himself just in front of the others, often just over the line in the pedestrian crossing area. Then, when the lights change, he grinds away in the biggest gear he has. Asshat.

The key thing here is, we all know who was in the wrong, but we also all know how that conflict* could have been avoided.

*Jameso's post above very neatly illustrates why avoiding conflict is [b][i][u]essential. [/u][/i][/b]

it caused an unnecessary boxing in of the car.

All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside.

In all this I think it's interesting how 'bad' from our POV a lot of driving is in Asia. No-one there seems to gives a toss, the traffic flows while people undertake, cut in, make squeezing, scary overtakes and tailgate all day. There's accidents and taxi rides there scare the crp out of me at times. But I've never seen any road rage. I'm not judging it aside from thinking it's risky, really just observing.

All I can think of is the differences in culture, our sense of ROW, ownership, entitlement and self vs their sense of being just one of many, not wanting to stand out much or make a fuss, a more accepting go-with-flow nature, something like that. Generalising but there's some truth in it.I'm not sure but it's interesting.
Makes me wonder if we create many of the issues around us ourselves yet perceive them as the fault of others by our defensive, fault-seeking nature. Choose your attitude etc. Amateur psychology BS, sorry ) but it affects how I react to these situations.
Dissecting incidents or rights of way etc doesn't change how people are, bad driving is a knock-on effect of stressed lives, ignorance etc. It's a bigger issue than just the driving and the police are too underfunded to address it as mentioned above.

[quote=crazy-legs ]
Although the cyclist was doing nothing wrong from a LEGAL point of view (initially anyway) by taking the ASL, he was (IMHO) unwise to do so since it caused an unnecessary boxing in of the car.
Why do you think the ASL is the full width of the lane?

I don't think anybody disputes that the cyclist was unwise to chase down the car, but that's not actually the point, and absolutely nothing the cyclist does leads to him deserving a punch. I do wonder that some people on here seem to think there are circumstances in which violence is reasonable behaviour.

If someone came up to you on the street angrily shouting right in your face - what would your response be? I don't think I'd hit them but I couldn't rule it out.

According to some on here you should 'stand up for yourself' in that scenario - but only if you're a cyclist.

Why do you think the ASL is the full width of the lane?

So we can annoy car drivers by boxing them in aggressively - can you not read 😉

As you note he did what he is legally entitled to

Indeed, but that doesn't make it [b]right[/b]. Much like the fact that the speed limit on a country lane may well be 60mph, but it doesn't mean it would be [b]right[/b] to go at 60mph, even if you were legally entitled to.

If they create a defined box at the head of the lights, the clear intent is that cyclists use all of it when necessary. Otherwise it would just be a stop line with a bike lane ahead of it.

Part of the idea is to get a pack of cyclists away well in front of potential left-hooking motorists as often as possible as opposed to creating a lengthy single-file line of cyclists heading away, meaning that left-turning traffic then has to stop and wait for the whole line to pass before making the manoeuvre.

Helps everyone, even Audi drivers.

[quote=CaptainFlashheart ]

As you note he did what he is legally entitled to

EVERY asl in London is full of cyclists, often 5 or 6 deep across the wdith of the road, they out-number cars by at least 5 to 1, often more. Cycling has taken over in central London. Public transport is full and driving in central London costs 8 quid in congestion charges and around 40 quid to park. No other option!

The reason you need to move to the right is to let other poeple in so they don't set off amongst the traffic. Notice all the tipper lorries on the other side of the road? Theres loads of building work there at the moment. Even "taking the lane" doesn't guarantee safety since

Theres no way the driver or passenger are local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by cyclists in front of you whilst driving. He'd be in punch ups every day.

driving is in Asia

http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip-2925658-stock-footage-kuala-lumpur-march-traffic-jam-in-city-center.html?src=rel/1461232:5

for some perspective

Theres no way the cyclist is local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by drivers doing stupid things. He'd be in punch ups every day.

Much like the fact that the speed limit on a country lane may well be 60mph, but it doesn't mean it would be right to go at 60mph, even if you were legally entitled to.

Has a cyclist ever been prosecuted for an offence for going into an ASL at a red light wherever they put their bike?
Driver have for the scenario you describe as yes that may still be a driving offence

Arguments (I found) in London tended to be handbag-affairs. I had a full blown argument with a bloke who threw his whole bodyweight into a packed tube carriage just as the doors were shutting. He landed on two ladies.

Que me objecting/kicking off and him kicking off. He then said 'have you been eating garlic' Yes, quite abit last night actually. Que end of argument with an apology.

Up north (as on the roads) it'd more likely be a fight from pretty much straight away?

The cyclist got owned and looked a bit silly but saying he deserved it is a bit odd, if the cyclist was a bit hardcore himself are you saying he had the right to drag the driver into the street and beat him up for the aggressive behaviour that started the incident??? Be reasonable people.

Riding in Cities is a fantastic buzz 😀

Theres no way the driver or passenger are local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by cyclists in front of you whilst driving. He'd be in punch ups every day.

The car was registered in Northants, so an outsider.

The video has also had 32,000 hits, a lot more than the cyclist had,shouldnt be long before the hiter is identified now.

Theres no way the cyclist is local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by drivers doing stupid things. He'd be in punch ups every day.

Except he didn't punch anyone. People shout at each other a fair bit on Londons roads, punch ups are unusual.

I'm really shocked by this, I always find Audi drivers the most courteous and polite users of the highways, must be an isolated incident.

If you go looking for trouble you'll usually get it, not sure it deserved a slap though.

[quote=grum]If someone came up to you on the street angrily shouting right in your face - what would your response be? I don't think I'd hit them but I couldn't rule it out.

I am quite sure I wouldn't punch them. Haven't hit anybody since I was ~16 (apart from maybe in self defence, but even in the incidents I can recall where I've been attacked I don't think I've thrown a punch). I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn't rule out using their fists in such a situation.

[quote=rewski ]I'm really shocked by this, I always find Audi drivers the most courteous and polite users of the highways, must be an isolated incident.

Ah, but it was the passenger who used his fists - I presume he owns a BMW.

I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn't rule out using their fists in such a situation.

shouldnt be long before the hiter is identified now.

Isn't that irrelevant unless someone (ie the cyclist) registers a complaint?

(apart from maybe in self defence, but even in the incidents I can recall where I've been attacked I don't think I've thrown a punch). I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn't rule out using their fists in such a situation.

If that happened in the street I think you could easily argue punching him was self-defence. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, or that I would do it, but I couldn't rule it out if I felt threatened. Getting out of the car to do it makes it a bit different.

I find it a bit worrying how many people are willing to excuse aggressive behaviour just because it's a cyclist that's doing it.

While I'm broadly sympathetic to those castigating any cyclist for being overly aggressive, swearing into people's windows and looking for confrontations, I'm really bamboozled by the assertion on this thread that cyclists should be crammed to the left in the ASL / ASZ / bike box.

The whole point is that they are full width, other places (I can think of at least one in Leeds) you could, if that was the intention, extend the bike lane at the same width, but stopping further forward, but that's not what the ASL does, is it? It goes full width so you can safely position yourself in front of traffic, visible to drivers, and less vulnerable to "left hooks". Isn't saying the cyclists should stay to the left of it not much different to the Clarksons of this world thinking that cyclists should ride in the gutter to stay "out of the way" of cars? What am I missing here?

On a related note, does anyone know if any driver, anywhere, ever, has actually been ticketed for an ASL infringement?

Can't be bothered to read all the posts but All this video does is confirm the fact that there are ****s driving cars and ****s riding bikes and people feel the need to argue otherwise. Shame really we could be discussing wheel sizes!?

[quote=njee20 ]shouldnt be long before the hiter is identified now.
Isn't that irrelevant unless someone (ie the cyclist) registers a complaint?
Surely entering the ASL is an offence regardless? (though I'm assuming the police will take no action in any case).

On a related note, does anyone know if any driver, anywhere, ever, has actually been ticketed for an ASL infringement?

I've seen a few FPNs being handed out in recent weeks, so yes. There's been a big push by the Police to both educate and, where necessary, prosecute this for all road users. Which is a good thing, IMHO. FWIW, I've yet to see a cyclist getting a FPN, just a polite telling off.

[quote=grum ]If that happened in the street I think you could easily argue punching him was self-defence.

Really? Self-defence against being shouted at? It's not as if the cyclist threatens to use violence himself.

I find it a bit worrying how many people are willing to excuse aggressive behaviour just because it's a cyclist that's doing it.

It's because his actions are justifiable (see defence for public order offence) as he's complaining about the driver's actions which came close to injuring him (to be honest that bit of driving is also an offence). Nothing to do with what mode of transport he's using. It actually seems that some people on here criticise people more because they're cyclists.

this place depresses me, I'm going back to the ghost ship cannibal rats thread

grum » If that happened in the street I think you could easily argue punching him was self-defence.

Really? Self-defence against being shouted at? It's not as if the cyclist threatens to use violence himself.

Agree with aracer - plus the passenger is a) in a car and b) not the recipient of the vitriol from the cyclist. No way in a million years is that self defence!