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I'm looking at a new bike for the coming season but I'd also like it to double as my 'good' bike during the summer. I have looked at a lot of options and steel seems to be making a big come back.
So far my shortlist contains the Enigma Elite and the Genesis Volare.
Both are high end steel and both claim to be versatile.
does anyone have any first hand experience of racing on steel? I know the Madison/genesis team ride them but I'm not quite the elite athletes they are!
Mat
Raced a Ti Enigma.
Finished 7th!
Raced a steel Enigma and finished mid pack.
combine either of those two with a good set of race wheels and you will be ok.
it really is the legs and head that wins races, not the bike.
It's not about the bike!
Won on a 20 year old Raleigh Dyna-tech a year or so ago. Didn't slow the Madison Genisis boys down either.
Also see Rapha/Condor and the Condor Super Acciaio
You're joking surely?
I would love to go as quick now on my carbon race bike as I did 30 years ago on my 531 Walvale! Div champ and 22 min 10 in 1983 on it. Steel is real!
Everyone I know binned steel as a material for serous bike frames about 10 years ago. Why make life hard for yourself for fashion purposes, get a lightweight, stiff carbon frame the only sensible choice for proper racers.
The steel will look cool as fooooook. But for racing......
Loving the Volare and the Elite!
Not sure however that for racing if steel is the way to go. Very hard to beat carbon....although for touring, sportive eat. Might be the thing!
I entered a local crit race on my Croix de Fer and finished 9th 🙂
The Genesis Volare looks lovely.
You can race on anything and be competitive. If you want to start racing, buy something cheap second hand. You won't want to crash that best bike.
I've raced alloy and carbon. The carbon is nicer, but not by much and is too nice to race in Cat4. That said, i finished third on Sat on my son's CAAD8. I'd be just as happy on steel to be honest. Provided the fit is right and the handling secure.
Ye, it's the head, then the condition, then the wheels. Frame material means f all
[url= http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=93131 ]Reasonable weight elite build[/url]
Go for it, you're not being niche or a luddite despite the naysayers.
So much is down to legs and head, as mentioned above. Bike weight is always a small percentage of the total weight you have to power, so it only really matters for elite/pros.
My brother has a collection of late 80's 531/753 steel racers that he uses for everything. He has some modern parts on them, but does very well on them.
It won't matter that much from a performance point of view, but my understanding is those high-end race steel frames are quite stiff, with very thin steel tubing. They are also very expensive. Personally, i wouldn't fancy crashing in a race on one of those! They seem a little different to the cheaper robust 2kg+ steel frames. if you're happy risking the money, go for it.
Why would you buy an off the peg Genesis when you can get a custom made Rourke in 953 for less?
I have a stainless Volare, they're nothing like a 'traditional' steel bikes to ride, the stiffness is on a whole different level.
The key is the 'full width' pressfit BB86 that allows them to give the chain stays a much wider stance. It's an absolute brute under power, easily as as stiff as a Cervelo R5.
The 44mm headtube paired with an ENVE tapered fork means it's mega stiff at the front as well, it descends like a banshee.
Inevitably this is at the expense of some of steel's assumed 'floatiness' but it's a race bike, if you wanted comfort you should gave bought an equilibrium.
It's never going to be as light as a similarly priced bike in carbon but I'm hardly the lightest of riders and I wanted a stiff durable frame, Carbon frames are like helmets, one big crash and they're usually toast, this thing feels like it'll outlast me.
Your call.
good point ransos - although I have heard that rourke have a big order book and a long lead time as a result...
may i suggest the little known waterford...
Rock and Road in Southampton import them and they are amazing....
[url= http://waterfordbikes.com/w/bikes/gpcomp/ ]Waterford[/url]
[url= http://rocknroadcycles.co.uk/waterford_index.html ]RocknRoad[/url]
good point ransos - although I have heard that rourke have a big order book and a long lead time as a result...
I'm sure that's true, but I reckon it's worth waiting to get exactly what you want.
The "off the peg" Genesis is a long, long way from off the peg in reality and is a very different thing to a Rourke or any other custom builder's 953 frame. The Volare is a proper bit of racing kit unlike the relatively generic, although custom, Rourke.
Ransos is not comparing like for like at all
Carbon frames are like helmets, one big crash and they're usually toast
Sorry but I've seen plenty of big crashes whilst racing and not a single carbon frame has broken. I've also seen high end steel tubes take some nasty dinks from falling over.
I love steel bikes and ride one daily, but for racing, I think carbon is cheaper, lighter at least as stiff and more easily repairable.
Genesis race steel bikes because Genesis sell steel bikes. Their riders ride what they are paid to. If they made beryllium bikes next year, then you can guess what they would ride for 2015 😉
The frame weight of that Genesis is quoted at 1.6-1.7 kg for a 54cm, that's not light, the Enigma is even worse. Worse the prices are comparable with a good carbon frame. Unless you are buying for aesthetics alone I just don't get it.
The "off the peg" Genesis is a long, long way from off the peg in reality and is a very different thing to a Rourke or any other custom builder's 953 frame. The Volare is a proper bit of racing kit unlike the relatively generic, although custom, Rourke.Ransos is not comparing like for like at all
I could order a Rourke with whatever dimensions, geometry, material grade, paint and fittings I choose. How is that generic? And what is different about the Volare?
Just to clarify, Mr Shotbolt isn't new to racing - he's a bit handy!
Mat, get that Genesis - its bloody lovely in 953! Or how about a colnago?
If he's that handy why bother asking on here and why bother buying your own bike surely someone will give you one? Plus you should already understand why steel is a daft choice for modern road racing. Still if you want to handicap yourself just to look cool feel free.
If he's that handy why bother asking on here and why bother buying your own bike surely someone will give you one? Plus you should already understand why steel is a daft choice for modern road racing. Still if you want to handicap yourself just to look cool feel free
Oohhh, get you stroppy pants.
However, I do agree that you're maybe handicapping yourself by going down the steel route. I read the review of the 953 Volare in Pro Cycling (Marcel Wurst - ya, I'm amazing) where the general impression I got (apart from the idea that Marcel is amazing) is that its an excercise in making it out of steel for the sake of it and there's no real benefit apart from it looking nice. And its a press fit, which would put me off. Even a pimp build still came out at over 15lbs which considering the cost would put me off.
What about another alloy frame Mat? That Storck was lovely
what a lot of replies!
I understand that there are a great number of very good carbon frames fit for the job.
I thought the steel option was worthy of investigation despite the weight penalty but my main aim is a bike that fits properly.
Steel appealed as a number of brands offer the customisable geometry which when paired with a tapered enve fork, 44mm headtube and CK headset should make the front end nice and tight.
My build kit would consist of a Sram force group, 42mm carbon clinchers and some nice finishing kit. My alloy storck is lovely and only weighs in at 13 ish pounds but is the wrong shape for me.
I could order a Rourke with whatever dimensions, geometry, material grade, paint and fittings I choose. How is that generic? And what is different about the Volare?
Because the Rouke whilst perfeclty fitted to you, is made from an off the shelf Reynolds tubeset. The Genesis is custom drawn, butted and formed for them. So as long as you're within the relms of 'average' the Genesis is arguably a better bike. If your 6ft7 or have a 38" inseam, then maybe not.
Going custom for the sake of it is even sillier than going steel. You go custom because off the ped doesn't fit you, or you have some very unusual requirements that can't be found off the peg. For an average person there's more drawbacks than advantages when compared agaisnt just getting a bike that fits.
Because the Rouke whilst perfeclty fitted to you, is made from an off the shelf Reynolds tubeset. The Genesis is custom drawn, butted and formed for them. So as long as you're within the relms of 'average' the Genesis is arguably a better bike. If your 6ft7 or have a 38" inseam, then maybe not.
Interesting,thanks. I wonder what the custom work actually entails? There's no info on the website I can see. And is it worth the weight gain?
Going custom for the sake of it is even sillier than going steel. You go custom because off the ped doesn't fit you, or you have some very unusual requirements that can't be found off the peg. For an average person there's more drawbacks than advantages when compared agaisnt just getting a bike that fits.
What drawbacks? Rourkes appear to be cost competitive comaped with off the shelf frames made of the same material. Personally, I like the idea of having something made just how I want it. If we're just talking about bang for your buck, then I suspect the inevitable answer is carbon, which renders the whole conversation moot.
you should already understand why steel is a daft choice for modern road racing
it's because you can fit a bigger logo on an carbon downtube.
skinny steel is more aero than a big chunky carbon frame, and aerodynamics are often more important than weight.
Answering two questions at once, Genesis/Reynolds struggled to get the Volare 953 project off the ground as 953 is so hard to work with, even Reynolds struggled to shape it the way Genesis were asking. Which also answers the "how custom" question, probably as custom as it's possible to go with 953.Rourkes appear to be cost competitive comaped with off the shelf frames made of the same material.
Even if 'just how you want it', is exactly the same as an off the peg frame?Personally, I like the idea of having something made just how I want it.
A like for like frame will be more expensive, the genesis and rouke are not like for like anymore than 2 6061 aluminium frames are the same. It's also limited to (a fairly wide selection) of stock tubing. No hydroforming and limited shaping. Waiting lists.What drawbacks?
Answering two questions at once, Genesis/Reynolds struggled to get the Volare 953 project off the ground as 953 is so hard to work with, even Reynolds struggled to shape it the way Genesis were asking. Which also answers the "how custom" question, probably as custom as it's possible to go with 953.
So we don't know whether it's some minor tweaks or more substantial work...
Even if 'just how you want it', is exactly the same as an off the peg frame?
If we're going to employ a reductionist line, we'd all be wearing casio digital watches, and as I've already said, riding a carbon frame.
A like for like frame will be more expensive, the genesis and rouke are not like for like anymore than 2 6061 aluminium frames are the same. It's also limited to (a fairly wide selection) of stock tubing. No hydroforming and limited shaping. Waiting lists.
As we can't establish what the differences actually are (other than the Genesis is heavier)then it's difficult to say one way or the other. A waiting list could be a problem but the OP wanted a bike for the new season, not right now.
skinny steel is more aero than a big chunky carbon frame, and aerodynamics are often more important than weight.
Yep, it's why all TT bikes are steel. Oh...
i didn't say 'than a proper slippery TT bike' i said 'chunky carbon'
y'know, all those massive downtubes, chunky forks, big headtubes, and over-built BB areas?
big tubes are less aero than skinny tubes.
but you can't fit 300 font on a 32mm downtube.
I think you'll find a curly Hetchins, Baines Flying Gate or Paris Galibier is more distinctive than any carbon tubing 300 font 😉
For me, steel has the advantage that it's easier to paint when it's been down the road. I can't think of another. But I still want a Pegoretti.
Hmmm.. if someone built a steel frame & fork that weighed less than 1.2kgs I guess it'd be good to race on, thing is I'm not sure anyone does..
Waterford R33 is close...
Waterford R33 Frame
Edge 2.0 Fork
Edge Seatpost
Chris King Headset
Ultegra 6700 BB1.47kg
Hmmm.. if someone built a steel frame & fork that weighed less than 1.2kgs I guess it'd be good to race on, thing is I'm not sure anyone does..
Why would you want to though?
Even the Genesis will easily build up under the UCI weigh limit.
The problem most teams trying to develop steel bikes have is stiffness, the test riders generaly couldn't give a stuff about weight once it's at the limit, but trying to get it stiff is much harder.
i didn't say 'than a proper slippery TT bike' i said 'chunky carbon'y'know, all those massive downtubes, chunky forks, big headtubes, and over-built BB areas?
big tubes are less aero than skinny tubes.
Nope, round tubes aren't very aero at all, you can make considerably bigger, but more aerodynamic shapes quite easily.
The problem most teams trying to develop steel bikes have is stiffness, the test riders generaly couldn't give a stuff about weight once it's at the limit, but trying to get it stiff is much harder.
Early Volares were a bit too stiff according to their team guys and they slimmed them down a fair bit. The current bikes look more like regular steel frame proportions imo. Very pretty bikes too.
35-40mm OD steel tubes can be pretty damn stiff, the weight seems to be the only hang-up. Perhaps that and the way even a stiff bike by steel standards will have some flex in it overall, compared to a carbon bike that can be made so rigid in one direction that there really is no perception of anything budging. It won't necessarily make it faster, but feel/feedback and actual performance are often confused by the rider. We all do it.
bikebouy - Member
Hmmm.. if someone built a steel frame & fork that weighed less than 1.2kgs I guess it'd be good to race on, thing is I'm not sure anyone does....
To add to the weight debate my 60cm Waterford r33 bike weighs 6.7kg so what's your problem re bike weights???
[b]steelsreal[/b] waves at a fellow Waterford owner 😀
ha I wish!
Just a fan, and browser at rock and road...there's always Gunnars as well...
I used to ride/race an old Colnago Master years ago, nice bike and all that but I was glad when alloy then carbon came around and have been riding a Parlee for 4 years now. I have a mate who recently bought a Coly Master reissue and it's still a nice looking bike and rides nice, but it's heavy. We swapped bikes on a rideout late last year just so I could relive the past, as nice as it was its a Sunday pootle bike at best nowadays and I was glad to get back on my Parlee..
Nothing against steel, but to race on I think you are putting yourself at an unfair disadvantage before you start. Even Condor/Rapha only use their Super Acciaios for specific races... But bloody hell they're nice bikes, they've one in their shop at the moment and it's kitted out with Red and Kys and it's a damn fine looking bike indeed. I was tempted have to say, very tempted but i wouldn't race it, sportives yes or Alps trips or hacking the Doli's for a fortnight of climbing or maybe do the Massive Central trip to Nice...
I don't think it matters.
A good steel frame will be equal to a good carbon.
A poor frame will still be a poor frame no matter what its made of.
Why would you handicap yourself riding a heavy or flexible frame if you didn't have to.
I think it would be okay if you are a) pretty good b)just doing shorter races and c)not 100% concerned about winning.
I thought about it, but it was the weight that was the biggest issue. When you're trying to eek out everything you can from a frame why go for heavier.
Stiffness? big deal, alloys stiff. People are clueless, carbon is engineered to perform in a certain way, look how carbon frames are often different on each side, they almost react to rider input. Just because it's stiff and carbon doesn't mean to say it's a good frame. And narrow steel tubes are not as aero as large aero carbon tubes.
Right now if someone said that a steel frame is far greater technically than carbon and that I'd do better on one then maybe I'd be tempted.
I fancied steel as I wasn't sure how much longer I'd be racing.
Good build BTW for a 3.2lb frame only steel bike.
Not all steel frames are the same, there's a massive difference in modern oversize Columbus spirit (butted .5 - .38 - .5) in 40mm 0/d and a frame made in stovepipe 531.
Just ordered one of these (without the gold bits) to stop trashing the pegoretti over winter same tube set but half the price 😀 it's not exactly going to be a heavy bike.
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Where did you order that from MrSmith? Is it coming all the over from Italy?!
thisisnotaspoon - MemberNope, round tubes aren't very aero at all, you can make considerably bigger, but more aerodynamic shapes quite easily.
thing is, even on a simple frame, with round tubes, there aren't many that are presented to the air-flow perfectly transverse.
think of the downtube, it's at around 45 degrees, which has the effect of elongating the section in the horizontal distance. it's still 32mm wide (or whatever) but the cross section is much longer - in essence, it's become an oval - not a bad shape at all.
what's wrong with Alloy for short races (crits) where comfort is of no use?
isn't alloy stiff,stiff,stiff?
apart from apparent harshness....does alloy have any other disadvantages?
it's not exactly going to be a heavy bike.
Yeah, but at €1500 for a frame and fork it will be significantly heavier than an equivalent price carbon bike, which is the point.
Droooooooolllllllll.... 😆
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Where did you order that from MrSmith? Is it coming all the over from Italy?!
Comtat bikes in London will be importing them
Yeah, but at €1500 for a frame and fork it will be significantly heavier than an equivalent price carbon bike, which is the point.
not for me it isn't. 🙄
as long as the bike is under 18lb with decent wheels it doesn't ride heavy (IME, having ridden a fair few road bikes)