[Closed] Road cassettes - what's the obsession with 11T sprockets?

On flat with tailwind or in fast moving chaingang I’m glad I have it 🙂

what you appear to want is a junior cassette - reasonably common but not so common they are discounted so you wont see them at the major box shifters @ 50% off

But ill keep my 11 tooth thanks

I was just bemoaning this. I just swapped my old lights for a chainset, but it has 52/36 instead of my previous 50/34. No problem, I thought, I'll just get a 30T sprocket at the back, and to reduce gaps I can get a 12t little sprocket. I never use 50/11 so I won't use 52/11. But there's very little choice in 12-30 or 12-32.

Sure, for the people who race in groups etc, but plenty of us don't.

But ill keep my 11 tooth thanks

What do you do with it? Is 50/12 genuinely not enough for you.

On flat with tailwind or in fast moving chaingang I’m glad I have it

As I said, 50/12 gets you way beyond 30mph before spinning out is vaguely a thing. I spent most of my 20s in a chaingang full of 1st and 2nd cats. 35mph chaingangs was not a thing.

Don't get me wrong, there will clearly be some people who have a use for it but they are definitely the minority.

11 speed means you can keep the 11 for speed and still have a 28 or 30 without to many jumps. I use mine lots with a compact chainset.

11 speed means you can keep the 11 for speed

You are genuinely spun out on the 50/12 on your block first before moving to the 11? Sure, I'm all up for the 28/30 bottom end, but for vast majority the 11th gear would be so much more useful somewhere in the middle narrowing the gaps.

I'm on 10spd using 50/34 compact with 12-28 cassette and hardly ever use the 12T. I've not looked at 11spd but one thing might be getting the ratio steps as even across 11spd. SRAM have gone with 10T but they have also reduced the chainring sizes - there's a GCN video about it.

In reality I'd be happy enough with 50/34 14-32 - I currently have 11-32 but if I'm spinning out 50/14  I'm going plenty fast enough. I'm a lightweight at 55kg and just don't have the power to push a much bigger gear than that at 100rpm very often. Closer spacing would be more advantageous to me.

Have a look at here for custom options

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/miche-11-speed-primato-cassettes-for-shimano-sram

When my cassette wears out I may well give a custom build a try

why would i want to *spin out*

I want to keep uniform cadence @ 90-100rpm

at 90 rpm thats 33mph at 100rpm thats 37mph.

I have 48/11 on my winter bike and theres one fast slightly down always tail wind section coming back to town (10km) that i always lose touch with the chain gang due to the fact I've run out legs for coming through at anything beyond 110 rpm.

Yea, Im with the OP on this one, even in the summer with evening group rides peaking at an average 24mph* I never run out of gears on a 13-28 cassette.

However, there are 12-25 and 14-28 ultegra cassettes so what more do you** want?

*hottest day of the year and a conscious decision to avoid hills, I'm not superman.

**i would like to be awkward and ask for 13-30.

I’m still to be convinced there was any point going below 11 tooth off road, never mind on road. I know I’m in the minority. Pretty soon, no one will buy cassettes that don’t have the smallest possible small cog for mountain biking… and it’s already the same for road use… if you make cassettes with a bigger smallest cog, it’ll sit in the shelf. It’s irrelevant what people need, you have to look at what people buy.

It's not so much the need for <11t, its the fact that a 10-50 cassette weighs considerably less than an 11-55 does with the same range, effectively swapping the 55t for a 10t.

I'm planning on swapping my gx to the narrower shimano 12s option once it wears out. But at the same time drop the front chainring by about 10%. Same climbing gears, closer spacing, and especially on a mountainbike the top end just isnt usefull (ive got a gravel bike if i want to ride downhill on the fire road).

The other advantage of those big wide cassettes is counter intuitively better chainline in the usefull gears. Imagine an 11-32 11s cassette on a road bike is actually a really close ratoo 13-27 7 speed, the two gears at either end are just bail outs to be used sparingly.

However, there are 12-25 and 14-28 ultegra cassettes so what more do you** want?

I'm guessing the 12-25 is intended for road racers using a standard chainset on flatish courses.

14-28 - that's a curious one and not sure quite what it's for. It feels like overkill knocking out 11,12 and 13 (even I would concede it would be easy to get spun out on 50/14) but at the same time not giving the amazing bottom end you can now get with the new tech. Like you a 13-30 would seem like the perfect sportive (or a sportive like ride on the other 364 days of the year without all the nause) cassette.

At least off road you can shrink it all: smallest smallest-sprocket means smaller largest one (and all the others in between) & smaller chainring (and in theory mech & shorter chain.

All lighter. But bigger/less even jumps sometimes, and wears out faster. But at least you can run a smaller chainring(s).

On road it seems less of an advantage. I’d like a smaller chain set, and 11-28 please (11 speed. Or 1x12. Or 13 even! or something. 11-40 1x13? Maybe.)

I’m still to be convinced there was any point going below 11 tooth off road, never mind on road.

It's so you can use a 28T chainring for even lower gears and not run out of gears on the road ride home.

oh and see compact chainsets.

eyeing up at 56T oval for my TT bike to let me go 1/10 close ratio at the back with the chainring in the right position for a good chain line across the whole rear range.

14-28 – that’s a curious one and not sure quite what it’s for.

junior gearing.

also miche do their primato in an almost endless set of sizes including 13-30.

also miche do their primato in an almost endless set of sizes including 13-30.

Just googled and found - perfect, that is my solution and not too silly money wise. Thanks.
Link for others interested.

Damn - what am I going to have to moan about now! Still mildly irked you have to go custom to get what should be an obvious mass market solution.

For the amount of use 11/12/13 get when my gear cable worked with my 34/50 chainrings, I'd much rather have a more tightly spaced 14-34 cassette.

But then more than 99% of my road rides are solo and there's only a few of my familiar descents I'm happy to press on rather than cautiously freewheel. Plus my passion is climbing, despite my unsuitable weight/age/FTP.

I find pretty much the same as the OP, the 11T is probably quite seldom used on a 'normal' road bike with a 50/34 chainset ridden by mortals. But then thats the same reason that compact chansets are now normal where "Standard" (53/39) chansets are really for He-Men and fewer are probably sold now...

Having been unable to find a decent replacement for my old 10 speed Ultegra 12-30 cassette (plus fancying a slightly lower bottom ratio), I recently caved and bought an 11-32 SRAM PG1070 cassette, it's apparently a Road bike Cassette now, but a handful of years back it would have been sold as an MTB one. It shifts nicely, is a reasonable weight and gives me the slightly lower bottom gear I wanted, but the 11T is pretty much un-used and the steps aren't quite the same. So I have found myself toying with the idea of dropping the big ring down from 50T to 48T to shift the whole range down a touch, I long ago accepted that I am not a mountain of Watts, but with the right set of ratios I can spin all day (well most of it).
Perhaps it's just easier to accept a normal cassette and play with the chainring tooth count to get a range that works for you.

My other ongoing drivetrain experiment at the minute is my winter road bike, which I've got setup 1x9 at present (42T x 11-34) and I am using the whole range. There's room to go for a bigger sprocket too (old, long cage XT mech), and the 11T does get used but the whole point of the bike is different it's a cold, wet weather plodder not an ego-charriot... But it has got me considering the idea of gong 1xN on my "For best" summer road bike...

Link for others interested.

That would be the same link as I posted above would it.:-)

I'm running 11-23 with a 38T front on my cross bike on the road. Fine for medium chaingangs (21-22 mph average on rolling stuff), but need a bigger ring for the very fastest group. My 11T is seldom harmed, even on a flat TT course with a tailwind. I have almost spun out on 53x11 down the ski slope in Wales on a 25 (130 RPM at 79 km/hr).

I prefer closer spacing rather that absolute range. Molly, you need Dura Ace casettes for waht you seek.

That would be the same link as I posted above would it.:-)

Mine's betterer 🙂

Current thoughts now I've (me you note, not you) found that option is to buy extra sprockets and swap them in and out depending on the event - say 12-27 most of the time and maybe 13-30 or even 13-32 for a super hilly event. Would normally have just bought 2 cassettes but this way around it all wears at a slightly more even rate and saves a bit of cash.

I'm with the OP. Old school 53/39 12-25 here (and I do race, albeit rarely).

Quite happy with my 11-32t, never really thought about the smallest cog until now.

So I reckon you're the one who's obsessed OP.

I'm actually a big fan of semi-compact 52.36. But don't need the 11T. My old road race bike ran 50/34, and that's why I used the 11-23 casette, 50/11 is a good top gear for my puny sprinting efforts - and three on the front is one on the back. Hence the old school. Moar gears meant you could run 12-28 instead of 12-25 which is a better gear for climing. That was lost on most people when they saw Oooooh 11 speed AND and 11T

So I reckon you’re the one who’s obsessed OP.

I'm not really thinking it's users who are obsessed. Most are innumerate sheeple who just buy what's put in front of them. It's the manufacturers who I think have got the 11t stuck in their head as the default sprocket choice.

I am, I confess, obsessed with setup though - managed to waste 2hrs the other day faffing with lever and bar setup when putting new bars on. I'd like to think of it as marginal gains. My wife has different words for it that would not pass the STW filters.

People still ask for 48 x 11 top gears on hybrids, saying that 44-11 is too low (on a 700x35 or larger tyre).

50/11 is a good top gear for my puny sprinting efforts

You do realise that is a bigger gear that Cipollini had to use? He was a lot of things, but puny was not one of them.

I’m still to be convinced there was any point going below 11 tooth off road, never mind on road. I know I’m in the minority.

Agreed, the way the smaller sprockets skip when full of mud isn't great, the 13-14s don't do that so much.

No racer here, but spend plenty of time in 50:11 (riding in the Peak District). I'm generally pretty disappointed if I don't break 40mph on a ride, 50:11 @100rpm gives me a gnats over 36mph. Average cadence over the course of a typical ride for me is mid-high 80s which is in the 28-32mph league.

I mean, you are all pedalling downhill as well as uphill, right?

I used to run 12-25 10s with 39/53 rings. When I went 11S, I went for a compact crank and an 11-25 cassette, so same gear spacing in each ring (but a bigger gap between rings) but got a higher top and a lower bottom. What's not to like?

I’m happy with my 11 sprocket, not that it gets used massively, but it does get used.
I’m not a huge fast cadence guy, more than happy using a bigger gear in a sprint or cresting a hill with a lower cadence than most.
If it was removed I probably wouldn’t notice, but it’s there and I’ll use it.

When I was road racing, it wasn't unusual to see speeds of 50-60kph on the flat with a tailwind and 70kph+ on descents and therefore a 11 or 12 sprocket was necessary to keep up as you constantly need to keep 'topping up' your speed to maintain position in a bunch

Campaign is readily available as 11 speed starting with the 12 sprocket.

Damn auto correct, Campagnola!

50/11 feels about right as a top gear to me.

I only really "spin out" on long, straight downhills, and it feels nice to turn on the flat.

But then 50/12 did too when I had that.

I’m generally pretty disappointed if I don’t break 40mph on a ride, 50:11 @100rpm gives me a gnats over 36mph. Average cadence over the course of a typical ride for me is mid-high 80s which is in the 28-32mph league.

I mean, you are all pedalling downhill as well as uphill, right?

There is pedalling downhill and there is pedalling downhill. Have look at tour footage and I'd be surprised if you'd find much of anyone pedalling when they have hit 40mph. I managed to hit 100kph in a race in Switzerland years back and I can assure you I was not even thinking about turning the pedals! TBH I'm not sure if the aero effect of pedalling over feet level in a silly tuck would slow you down after certain speed rather than speed you up.

Semi compact on a 12 25 I regularly spin out on descents, only notice it when in a group with riders who have an 11. It’s annoying but overall I prefer the closer spacing

When I was road racing, it wasn’t unusual to see speeds of 50-60kph on the flat with a tailwind and 70kph+ on descents and therefore a 11 or 12 sprocket was necessary to keep up as you constantly need to keep ‘topping up’ your speed to maintain position in a bunch

And that is kind of my point. How many cassettes that get sold see a road race? If you are road racing (and if you spec a road race specific bike with a compact which for a UK based racer I'd see as a curious choice) I can totally see it's need. But that is a marginal activity. 5% of road cyclists road race maybe. And even then most ride different wheels with different cassettes on their bike for the vast majority of the time.

There are some hills where I know I will pedal, in Snowdonia there is a real long straight downhill section (8 miles predminantly downhill but it does have the odd flat section and a couple of small rises) where I hit well over 50mph and my PR is average of 29.9mph for the 8 miles - when I reach 50mph I've stopped pedalling - but its the cresting of a hill, building the speed up as quick as possible - then when hitting a small slope slowing down to 30mph, I'll want to pedal to keep the speed.
Its rare but it happens.
(I'd never do the top tube pedalling seen in the tour - but thats because I like my teeth in my mouth!)

(Section is Ride it Like you Stole It on Strava, after the lump out of Blaneau Ffestiniog on the A470 back to Betws-y-Coed. 8 miles of joy, Well worth doing when its not too windy)
Again out in Girona I used my 52/11 quite a lot, some great long descents where it was nice to be able to keep pedalling on the straights after a descent.

I’d never do the top tube pedalling seen in the tour – but thats because I like my teeth in my mouth!

Lol yes I tried that once, almost had the mother of all spectacular crashes.

There's also a curious anomaly that lots of people want that mahoosive top gear for thr downhills, where even putting out as many watts as you can manage wont get you much extra speed in return. But would never consider a gear low enough to maintain that same cadence uphill where being able to spin a comfortable cadence makes a much bigger difference to your power output and fatigue.

'I want to not exceed 90rpm downhill, but will gurn up 10% inclines at 30rpm rather than admit that I need a compact and mountain bike cassette'.

I’d be surprised if you’d find much of anyone pedalling when they have hit 40mph

I managed 200 Watts at 130 RPM in 53x11. The power meter showed I was working. Didn't quite break the 80 km/hr though 🙁 . Even on a flat dual carriageway with a tailwinf, I don't often use the 11T in a TT. On my trike in the 12hr I never used it.

I’d be surprised if you’d find much of anyone pedalling when they have hit 40mph

Be surprised

Be surprised

With respect that is not you in the tour is it? What I meant was how many savvy pros would bother, not is it physically possible.

No - and in truth I was surprised to put down than many watts ay that speed. Probably as one extension was loose so I never felt like going for teh aero crouch! I'm also a bit of a spinner though - which is one reason I raced a season on a compact and a tight rear block.

Convert - I know you intended your question to TiRed, but can you just clarify, you're asking what pro's would use the 50 (52 or 53) / 11 when descending?

You raced? Did you never need to bridge a gap? How about those guys not great at cornering and need to get back to the group as quickly as possible?
What gear would you think he is in when pedalling?

Longer version worth watching how the break is made (

Another really good example of wanting the biggest gear possible, look at 1:30 of this video, coming out of a hairpin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUACRu6HfVU
More examples of downhill pedalling very fast (1 min to 1 min 10 gives a good example)
And another worth watching, again no idea what gear they are pedalling - but pretty sure they would want to have the biggest gear available to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmhgOFGl_M

woodster - I know what you are saying and yes probably my error of course you can find people thrashing down hills in the tour. Lots of freewheeling even in that footage mind. And this is footage of the pointy end of the pointy end - the remaining 140 odd of the world's best riders slightly further back off camera won't have be doing that.

But again - my point is that whist a tiny proportion of people have a need to use a massive gear (and to reiterate 50/11 is bigger than any road racer hero you might have seen in your youth was pushing) most people just don't don't. So why is 12-XX not the standard with 11-XX the outlyer for those that actually need it?

Anyway, miche cassette purchased with a handful of extra sprockets so I can do 12-27, 12-30, 13-30 or 13-32 by swapping some in and out for about the cost of 2 discounted ultegra cassettes with silly 11t sprockets!

TBH I’m not sure if the aero effect of pedalling over feet level in a silly tuck would slow you down after certain speed rather than speed you up.

My personal experience is that a "sensible" aero tuck (hands in the drops, chin on the stem, pedals level) is slower in most cases than pedalling. It's a gradient -v- speed thing and not being very gravitationally attractive, or especially aero, I just slow down if I'm not pedalling. I'll absolutely accept that it might not be "efficient" over the course of the ride to spin my t*ts off down every hill -v- saving energy there to use on the climbs, but it is more fun going really bloody quick.

But would never consider a gear low enough to maintain that same cadence uphill where being able to spin a comfortable cadence makes a much bigger difference to your power output and fatigue

Getting a bit off topic, but I'm very much of the opinion that road biking isn't supposed to be easy, its supposed to be fast. You don't go fast by twiddling a little gear quickly, you go fast by twiddling a big gear quickly. If I give myself a little gear I can hide in, then I'll use it and just be slow. Take it away and I have to just HTFU and deal with it. I've played around with smaller gears - inc the switch to compact chainsets - all it does is make me less strong and slower.

(and to reiterate 50/11 is bigger than any hero you might have seen in your youth was pushing)

surely that depends on your youth era.

It’s a gradient -v- speed thing and not being very gravitationally attractive, or especially aero, I just slow down if I’m not pedalling. I’ll absolutely accept that it might not be “efficient” over the course of the ride to spin my t*ts off down every hill

down glenshee south road towards perth there is definitely a point where pedalling is slowing you down and just tucking gets you going quicker.... its north of 80kph though- well for my body shape and aeroness ( not much as i have a headtube the size of a size 10 foot)

There’s also a curious anomaly that lots of people want that mahoosive top gear for thr downhills, where even putting out as many watts as you can manage wont get you much extra speed in return. But would never consider a gear low enough to maintain that same cadence uphill where being able to spin a comfortable cadence makes a much bigger difference to your power output and fatigue.
‘I want to not exceed 90rpm downhill, but will gurn up 10% inclines at 30rpm rather than admit that I need a compact and mountain bike cassette’.

I have to agree with TINAS here, I think we've clearly got people with a wide variety of needs when it comes to road bike gearing, but some seem to be biasing the their drivetrain towards more much more marginal use cases than others, ultimately a bike that requires substantially more energy to get the rider to the top of a hill is only going to result in a more fatigued rider on the descent. and even if they can push an extra 10-15 inches down the other side, surely they'll have far less range for all the effort expended?

What's so terrible about tucking in and saving the watts rather than trying to muscle your way everywhere an extra couple of MPH Avg on a descent is only worth it in certain racing scenarios, beyond that it's just going to be inefficient...

The vast majority are probably not going to benefit from pushing anything much over say 110 Gear inches which is substantially exceeded by a 50-11 ratio...

Of course what we've not really touched on is sub-compact chainsets, if you are using some flavour of sub-compact chainset with a smaller (than 34t) inner ring then I think a closer range cassette that starts with an 11t sprocket starts to make better sense... (IMHO of course).

I’m happy with a 50/34 and 11/32 for climbing. Thats for steep North Wales long climbs. No muscling the gear going on to be honest.
But I equally do want to keep pedalling when I’m on a descent.
When racing crits I wanted 53/39 and 11-23. Obviously no or very small hills. Peloton would regularly rip along at 30mph and the 11 would be needed for bridging gaps, breakaways, sprints out of corners etc.
I do agree that for a lot of rides and riders they may not use the 11 tooth cog, I might not use it on some rides but will for other rides.
I like riding fast, so I’ll pedal as often as possible on a descent. Long descents often plateau, I’m not talking about a 45 second 40mph descent.

t I’m very much of the opinion that road biking isn’t supposed to be easy, its supposed to be fast. You don’t go fast by twiddling a little gear quickly, you go fast by twiddling a big gear quickly.

This is a very odd attitude - it suggests road biking is inaccessible for those who aren't already fit roadies - and is immediately contradicted by this:

If I give myself a little gear I can hide in, then I’ll use it

I will use the highest gear I can on a road bike, to achieve my training aims. If I'm trying to get a z2 ride and lose weight that is actively contradicted by smashing a too-big gear up a hill. If I am doing high intensity training then I will do it as hard as I can regardless.

Your smash-it attitude is likely not productive, and rather elitist 🙂

You don’t go fast by twiddling a little gear quickly, you go fast by twiddling a big gear quickly. If I give myself a little gear I can hide in, then I’ll use it and just be slow. Take it away and I have to just HTFU and deal with it.

The road bike world generally moved away from this attitude when power meters became more widely available and our eyes were opened to what was truly the fastest way from A to B. RPE is a crafty sod and very deceiving. Very often for the motivated rider the fast way to the top of the hill (or to the top of the hill after next) is to use a lower gear. Maintaining a healthy cadence for the same power output is far more preferable to muscling up a hill at the same power output but a lower cadence. When freaks like Froome, trained to an inch of his life and weighing the square root of **** all use 32T sprockets to ride up hills I reckon it's only reasonable that lumps like us do so too.

The fact you only put the effort in up a hill when you don't have a choice says more about your mental strength than it does about gear choice 😉

How many cassettes that get sold see a road race?

Never mind that where do you all get these tailwinds or am I the only headwind magnet?

And that is kind of my point. How many cassettes that get sold see a road race? 

Not many, but I like a 11t with a compact I'm not comfortable spinning to high a cadence so like something to lean on. Riding down this or anything similar would have me in trouble trying to close a gap with a 50/12. And that's a club or mates ride not racing.

Check out my effort on this segment on Strava https://strava.app.link/rWrSy7LMI1

Edit:
Link seems to show the whole ride, its the Down Down Down segment I'm referring to. Storey Arms down towards Brecon.

Having owned a bike shop, you guys would be amazed just how often Joe Bloggs wants a harder top gear on their bike that came fitted with a 50/34 chainset and usually 11-28 or 11-32 cassette... For every 2 people that want a sub 1:1 bottom ratio, I’d get at least one who claimed 50:11 wasn’t tall enough...

The problem is, most of them aren’t learning to pedal properly! But for this very reason, the 11T is regarded as a necessity by a target market for whom it shouldn’t really... On my winter bike, 50/12 is plenty enough to be honest, however... I’m not a racer by any stretch of the imagination, but when fit(ter than I am now!) I can get a move on, keep up with the fast local groups even if only for an hour or so. I’ve run lots of different gearing combo’s to find what works for me, but on my summer road bike I don’t want to be without an 11T as even with a 52/36 chainset, I could get dropped on a few sections when the smallest cog I had was a 12T. So I run an 11-30 Ultegra block which suits all eventualities for me. I do have the ability to swap between 52/36 and 50/34 rings though should I see fit.

Winter bike is running Campag oddly enough (bike was cheap, I’ve grown to quite like it!), and a 12-29 block. Yes it’s nice having a 16T in there at times, but similarly when I get back on my summer bike, the 17-15 cog jump never bothers me, where a lack of 11T does!

I’m very much of the opinion that road biking isn’t supposed to be easy, its supposed to be fast.

Nah a road bike is just meant to be efficient.
That efficiency can then be applied to some slightly different uses: covering large distances, scaling big tall hills and mountains, going fast (on the flat or downhill) or a combination of all of those.
As most road bikes are sold for "general purpose" road cycling i.e. they can do most of the above reasonably efficiently.

It stands to reason manufacturers provide drivetrains that meet the users 'general' requirements, over the years they have improved in that regard but as the OP pointed out; an 11t sprocket doesn't actually seem to fit in with that "General purpose" road bike ethos as they result in a substantially harder top gear that most of us nodders weren't really crying out for.

I have 48/11 on my winter bike and theres one fast slightly down always tail wind section coming back to town (10km) that i always lose touch with the chain gang due to the fact I’ve run out legs for coming through at anything beyond 110 rpm.

#Metoo, actually not really I get dropped due to not being fit enough!!
I wonder if these bigger gears would be more useful if I lived somewhere with more open flowing dscents, most of the ones I ride are short steep and twisty,but a 50:11 might be more useful on peddally descents.

Having owned a bike shop, you guys would be amazed just how often Joe Bloggs wants a harder top gear on their bike that came fitted with a 50/34 chainset and usually 11-28 or 11-32 cassette… For every 2 people that want a sub 1:1 bottom ratio, I’d get at least one who claimed 50:11 wasn’t tall enough…

That's fine, the point isn't that 11t is too small, it's that there's not enough choice. Shimano only make nice cassettes in 11t. Why?

Shimano only make nice cassettes in 11t. Why?

Because you have not looked very hard and they do nice cassettes in 12 and 14....

they do nice cassettes in 12

But to the market I (we) are talking about a 12-25 is no more correct than a 11-XX. It is not a 'sportive rider'/mamil solution apart from relatively flat places. Its really a 12-28 or a 13-30 that should be the default cassette put on bikes out of the factory with the option to put something with a bigger top end if you really need it.

Back in the mid 1980s I bought myself a handbuilt road bike - Reynolds 531 tubing with a full Shimano 105 groupset (it even came in its own presentation case), SIS had just come out a couple of months before. Living in the Lakes back then I asked for gearing suitable for the area:

52-42T chainrings with a six speed 12-20T block! I ask you!

Going to a compact 50-34T chainset you "need" to go to an 11T at the back to keep roughly the same top gear ratio as 52/12. Of course you don't "need" to keep that ratio and as noted by several above for the majority of riders it's way too big most of the time. I run a 12-28 cassette and even that 50/12's a tall gear for me these days, it only really gets used on long downhills if I'm chasing someone but since I usually ride on my own that's not a regular occurrence.

With the steep stuff around here I tend to stand anyway just to keep the front wheel on the ground so ultra low gearing isn't a requirement "for me". I suspect that's a throwback to that 1980s bike!

I usually only use the 11 on the local chaingang where there is a pedally downhill section that will have the group sitting above 40mph - but having it also means if i am sprinting on the 12 or 13 then the chainline feels better than if those were the bottom gears.

Its not much and i suspect very, very marginal (if at all) in terms of saved watts but it feels better and that is important too.

Because you have not looked very hard and they do nice cassettes in 12

Bloody hell why didn't I find that earlier? A 105 12-30 would be ideal.

I like an 11 T rear sprocket , not because I am awesome but because I am fairly strong , although not super fit , and at 62 years old am not able to spin at a high cadence but like a compact chainset with a 32 on the back to get me up hills. With an 11 speed casette I don't find the jumps in gear ratio excessive and overall it suits me fine for what I do.

The best sprinters of all time, the likes of Cipollini and Merckx managed fine with less.

Merckx would've used an 11t if they'd been available - riders of his era often used 54 or 55 rings for tailwind or flat days. In the same fashion, Cipo and the mid/late 90s sprinters were the first to use 11t sprockets and were taking them from compact drive XT/XTR cassettes to mod DA ones as soon as they became available.

Good point LS. Not just sprinters using bigger front rings. Actually have a photo of Contadors bike at Paris Nice queen stage, even for that stage Contador had a 54/42 with an 11/28. From memory he needed to win the stage by 7 seconds to take the overall, no ridiculous climbs, Col D’ Eze I think was the main climb.

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You are genuinely spun out on the 50/12 on your block first before moving to the 11?

You don't have to spin out a gear for it to be useful, any more than you need to be grinding as slow and hard as you possibly can in a low gear for it to be useful.

Also, it makes little sense to drop the 11 and keep the low end- you can make an overall lighter setup by keeping the 11, changing the lowest gear instead, and reducing the front ring size, and get better chain length at the same time. Unless you think there's a drag difference between 11 and 12.

bookmarked for those cassettes

Also, it makes little sense to drop the 11 and keep the low end- you can make an overall lighter setup by keeping the 11, changing the lowest gear instead, and reducing the front ring size

The thing is you change cassettes reguarly, far more often than chainrings. Changing rings is a £30-50 outlay, whereas simply choosing a 12t cassette next time it wears is zero capital expenditure.

The thing is you change cassettes reguarly, far more often than chainrings. Changing rings is a £30-50 outlay, whereas simply choosing a 12t cassette next time it wears is zero capital expenditure.

15 minutes ago it was about what OEMs were fitting to bikes.....now it's about what punters are bodging on at home.

If your gonna pick a line of enquiry at least be consistant

Some people I know “spin out” at a cadence of 180.
I can’t hold over 100 for any length of time.
But then I have massive thighs.
Get me the big gears.

15 minutes ago it was about what OEMs were fitting to bikes…..now it’s about what punters are bodging on at home.

My line of enquiry is about aftermarket options. 12t is less widely available it seems.

I find the jump between 34/ 50 far more annoying than my old standard double - it usually needs a shift of two gears at the back to maintain cadence. This thread has prompted me to winder if I should go for something like a Miche 12-30t cassette paired with a 39/ 53. I do like having a fairly tall top gear (currently 50/ 11) as I can go noticeably faster on my local downhill than I can on my other bike with a 50/ 12.

Well no they are availible from any shop with a Madison account.

I suspect what you mean is as I said right at the start they are not heavily discounted because no one really buys them.

SRAM are down to 10t on their 12 speed cassettes now, although with 46/33 upfront.

I suspect what you mean is as I said right at the start they are not heavily discounted because no one really buys them.

You'd have been wrong to say it though. The only non 11-XX options, 12-25 and 14-28, are just as heavily discounted and just as visible as the 11-XX on the box shifter websites. That was never the issue. Your theory fall apart. The issue is that 12-25 and 14-28 are not the solution. The right, and to my mind obvious solution, for a mass market need is a 12-28, a 12-30 or a 13-30, especially in beginner friendly 105 flavour, with the extra sprocket used in the middle to make another smaller jump. Which are not shimano manufactured options even if you went to madison HQ personally and gave everyone a reach around.