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Morning All,
I recently got an entry level road bike to use on the turbo over winter. Over the piece I have been starting to get a bit numb in the "funzone" - Im not doing days in the saddle though, just upto an hour or so. This has never hapend when on the proper bike!
I am happy that the seat set-up is reasonably ok and i try to stand up at regular intervals (on the hills) - but still getting numb.
I feel a bit stretched when reaching for the bars with the 100mm stem the bike came with. Should i replace with an 80mm or a 90mm or a 90mm adjustable?
Any input would be appreciated - its quite an un-nerving feeling!
cheers,
paul
Can you post a pic of the bike they way you have it set up now?
I guess if you're only on the turbo then you could go as short and high as you like! On a 56cm road bike I found that 100mm worked fine re: handling, but 90mm got a bit jittery on fast descents.
Are you sure the saddle set up is OK? Could you tilt it forward a little more? Phil Burt (Team Sky head coach or something) did a book on bike fit which suggests dead level or even 2 degree tilted forwards, but never backwards.
Finally I guess it could just be that your fun zone and saddle aren't compatible? 😉
Sliding my saddle forwards just another 5mm stopped all my numbness. Try some fore aft adjustments and also the angle. It may also be slightly too high
its a 54cm frame and at 5'9 3/4" im bang in the middle of the sizing chart.
I'll get a pick tonight when back home - at work at the mo.
Pics would help but some thoughts:
Is the saddle completely flat? Have you tried a very slight nose down
Is it better when you are on the tops? Vs hoods and drops?
Have you got a levelling block under the front wheel?
Don't ignore it, short term can lead to long term according to some stuff I've read
I do generally find turbo less comfortable than on the road or even rollers, something about the lack of movement
Not sure I understand the question if you are just using it in the turbo you will go numb. Turbos are a stupid artificial environment I wouldn't worry about it. If you are riding outside for just an hour and getting numb then yes somethings wrong.
just to clarify -
saddle is flat ish - I will double check tonight with spirit level
saddle is as far forward as possible
saddle not painful/uncomortable apart from this
got a levelling block under front wheel
dont use the drops - just the hoods and tops so far
thinnkng about it, I find that i actually ride a lot without holding the bars, sitting vertically as it is more comfortable / less pressure down below.
doesnt happen when outside at all, only on turbo.
If your saddle is as far forward as possible and an 80mm or less stem I think your bike is too big.
Is it an inline post, how much post is protruding.
Hard to tell without pics.
<ignore this, I hadn't read the whole thread>
Saddle will be too high.
i set the saddle height with the old heel on the pedaql and knee just bent at the bottom of the stroke technique. Is there a better way of doing it myself?
Is there a better way of doing it myself?
109% of inside leg, between pedal axle and the top of the saddle works well for me.
saddle is as far forward as possible
This is [i]probably[/i] not right. If you're bang in the middle of the sizing for the bike, your saddle should be about in the middle of the adjustment range.
Not sure I understand the question if you are just using it in the turbo you will go numb. Turbos are a stupid artificial environment I wouldn't worry about it. If you are riding outside for just an hour and getting numb then yes somethings wrong.
This is really bad advice, you shouldn't be getting numb anywhere, indoors or out. 🙄
Copy your existing bike?Is there a better way of doing it myself?
Some extra things to check.
1. Saddle width. Are you sitting on your sit bones? If the saddle is too narrow then all your weight will be on your perineum (bad)
2. Reach. (you already know about this)
3. Saddle height. The heel on the peddle test is a good starting place.
4. Saddle fore/aft. Drop a plumb line from the front of the knee with that pedal in the 3 0clock position. The plumb line should go through the peddle axle. Making big adjustments to try to solve your reach issues will cause problems elsewhere such as your knees.
5. Bar height, what is the drop between saddle and bars?
Saddle fully-forward suggests that the frame / reach is too long - you should be aiming to rest your pelvis on the back of the saddle rather than pulling yourself down onto the nose - avoid forward rotation of the hips as this also presses the perineum onto the saddle. A slight nose-down saddle inclination could help.
Sorry guys but all the people suggesting you should use saddle fore/aft to adjust your reach is just plain wrong.
Saddle fore/aft should be set to get the correct knee position above the peddle and then left alone.
If you want to adjust reach then change stems, add or remove steerer spacers.
[quote="Tailwagger"]Saddle fore/aft. Drop a plumb line from the front of the knee with that pedal in the 3 0clock position. The plumb line should go through the peddle axle. Making big adjustments to try to solve your reach issues will cause problems elsewhere such as your knees.
Saddle fore/aft should be set to get the correct knee position above the peddle and then left alone.Do people STILL persist with this?
Saddle fore/aft should be set to get the correct knee position above the peddle and then left alone.
LOOOOOL
When did you do your bike fitting course? The 1900s?
Do people STILL persist with this?
When did you do your bike fitting course? The 1900s?
If you know better, share...
If you know better, share...
+1 happy to be corrected.
Copy the position of your road bike.
Change the saddle to the same as your road bike.
[quote> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
There is a starter for 10.
Linking an article written by one man that is over 20 years old is hardly relevant!
What else have you got?
thanks for all ther input guys - this is my very first road bike, so all this is new to me. I will re-position the seat more centraly and have a look at the height and angle of it.
Kryton is your 109% vertical or in parallel to the seat post/tube?
109% of inside leg, between pedal axle and the top of the saddle works well for me.
???? so.... longer than your legs?
Linking an article written by one man that is over 20 years old is hardly relevant!What else have you got?
Surely the only resource that recommends KOPS is Bikeradar with it's five tips for beginner's road bike fits.
http://kirkframeworks.com/2009/06/19/riding-tip-3/
Surely the only resource that recommends KOPS is Bikeradar with it's five tips for beginner's road bike fits.
The point is the OP and a lot of other riders will fit bikes themselves. As such they need some basic rules that are easy to follow at home. KOPS, like many other bike fit basic rules are a good starting place (not an absolute).
A quote from this article... https://hypercatcycling.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/understanding-bike-fit-kops-knee-over-pedal-spindle/
KOPS is used, even though it has no real biomechanical basis because it does seem to work quite well and is an ideal starting point when setting a bike up from nothing. One of the reasons it works is really very simple. A diamond frame bike could theoretically have a much steeper or shallower seat-tube and be as biomechanically efficient at either extreme, but the inclination of the saddle would have to be tilted up or down and friction would be insufficient to stop you sliding off it. Similarly, the pedal forces in the KOPS position are predominantly upward with a small rearward component. In normal pedalling efforts these will be reacted by gravitational and saddle frictional forces.
Another good rule:
Saddle rails centred on the seat post.
This is really bad advice, you shouldn't be getting numb anywhere, indoors or out.
I'd be impressed if you can manage a couple of hours on the turbo without any numbness.
I played around with my turbo position a fair bit but just ended up going back to my road position. Good for hours on the road, ok for about 90 mins on the turbo and after that it's just a case of putting up with numbness.
Best solution I found is to ride in a completely different position for a while. So for a couple of hours of riding I'd maybe do 45 min in the road bike position, 45 mins in TT bike position, then 30 mins road bike position.
OP, how long before numbness sets in?
OP, how long before numbness sets in?
about 30 mins...
Steve Hogg,
Steve Hogg,
Steve Hogg....
Drop the nose of the saddle by a few degrees.
Not fashionable but it works, by taking the pressure of certain areas
Are you using the same seat as the seat on 'the proper bike' ?
charge spoon on the mtb, decathlon cheapo on the new road bike...
To add to the comments above:
OP, how long before numbness sets in?about 30 mins...
As MrBlobby implies, it's more likely to be a problem on a turbo (or at least happen after a shorter period of riding compared with on the road), because when riding on the road you will be frequently - if not constantly - moving about on the saddle without even realising it, and probably occasionally getting out of the saddle, both varying and relieving the pressure on the area, all of which is likely either to prevent it happening or at least delay it. Getting your position 'right' will help, but if you ride on the turbo in the same position without any moving about whatsoever on the saddle (or without getting out of the saddle briefly), even in the ideal position for you, then I would not be surprised if it happens.
If you are doing constant steady efforts on the turbo, with no variation in intensity, then that is going to mean that you will tend to stay in the same position and not make the sort of occasional - even small - movements that will relieve the pressure. If you are not already doing so, I would suggest you introduce variations in intensity, e.g. intervals (long and/or short). That will likely help you to keep changing position, i.e. on the drops or hoods for the hard effort, and during the recovery phases on the tops or even sat up (no-handed) plus maybe a short period out of the saddle.
As to stem length, if the bike is staying on the turbo for the winter and you think it's possibly too long, then I would consider getting a much shorter very cheap basic stem (not just 10mm shorter, but 20mm, 30mm or even more). While the bike is on the turbo, you don't need to worry about too short a stem affecting the handling. With very cheap stems, it's easier (and not too costly) to start with a very short one, and if you feel it's too short, you can get a slightly longer one. If you are overweight and have a bit of a stomach, then you might find that it gets in the way of leaning forward in your ideal position, but if/when you get slimmer this can change. Obviously raising the stem is another option to tweak your position (flip the stem or get one with more rise if the steerer has been cut too short to allow more spacers under the stem).
Another option might be the specialist anatomic saddles like [url= https://www.ismseat.com/ ]ISM[/url].
As to getting your position right, if you are new to road riding then a bike fit might be a good idea, but in the meantime an advantage of a static turbo is that it does make it a bit easier to experiment with getting your preferred position by yourself. You could get a mate to look at you on the turbo and see if he thinks your position looks right/uncomfortable (or put a mirror against a wall to see yourself).
As to the right way to set up the bike, the argument that an article should be disregarded simply because it is 20 years old is daft: the human body has not evolved into a different shape in the last 20 or 100 years.
Cycling is "a marriage between the somewhat adaptable human body and a somewhat adjustable machine" - there is unlikely to be an absolutely correct position or set up for anyone. Even if you get a position you are happy with now, you could find that you need to change it later due to increased or reduced fitness (e.g. greater/less flexibility, less or more of a stomach, less or more bodyweight [=less or more pressure on the perineum]).
You might find [url= http://wheel-easy.org.uk/uploads/documents/Bike%20Set%20Up%202017a.pdf ]this article[/url] written by the people at Spa Cycles to be useful.
Linking an article written by one man that is over 20 years old is hardly relevant!
Really? 20 plus years since KOPS was discredited as anything more than a vague guideline. Probably 15 years since the last proper bike fitter used it. Yet here we are. With people still persisting with suggesting it as a set and forget "thing" and still calling it a rule.
its a 54cm frame and at 5'9 3/4" im bang in the middle of the sizing chart.
Bike looks the right size, so it is a simple matter of position. You are numb because you are rotated too far over on the saddle and are compressing a nerve.
Now for some basics on position. Despite the naysayers, KOP puts most people in a reasonable starting position. As does 0.883 x inseam (Lemond formula). Then it is a case of adjustment from there. Often I may move the saddle forward in increments of 0.5 cm in order to provide balance. That means you can lean over and still support your torso reasonably well by pedal pressure (forget the core stuff), with no hands on the bars - this is an important point that is often lost. KOP gets most people to this. Saddle should be bang on level not tilted, this avoids pressure on your arms and improves balance.
Once saddle looks reasonable and rider balanced, then it's time for handlebars. A typical drop to the top of the bars will be about 6-8 cm. More aggressive if you are young and flexible. A bigger drop increases the rotation, and hence possibility of nerve compression. As for stem length (or reach), I like to get people on the hoods leaning over with an elbow angle of 90-100 degrees. That's a nice rule of thumb. If you are of average proportions for your height, a 90 stem might be a better option.
This is only a guidance. A picture/video of you in several positions would help. BUT an easy test is if you are comfortable then rest on your hoods and pedal, and if there is NO bend in your elbows, then your bars are too far away.
And yes I have the badges 😉
EDIT 0.883 x inseam is BB to top of saddle midpoint (usually along the seat tube, depending on angle). 10X% assumes foot size scales and pedal ankling techniques is common. I prefer Lemond. The alternative is high enough to avoid rocking of the hips, but this is harder to set on your own.
Thanks to all for the input. I shall be busy tonight!
You get numbness when you squash your perineum. You need to be sitting on sit bones which is not comfortable at first but gets easier. So however you need to do this - lower saddle, tiit forwards, raise bars, shorten stem etc, that's what you're aiming to do.
My saddle is nose down slightly despite always having stuck to the 'saddle level' idea on MTB. But if you nose down too much you'll end up sliding forward off it and your arms will have to do too much work. Also make sure the saddle's not too high if this happens - lower it a smidge - will feel wrong at first but stick with it for a few weeks.
Thanks to all for the input. I shall be busy tonight!
Just lower your saddle, and then lower it some more (you're actually supposed to make incremental changes, but your saddle is probably way too high as it is. You could try Tired's formula for a start, but it relies on getting an accurate crotch to floor measurement).
As molgrips said, it might feel wrong at first, but there's not real disadvantage to having your saddle too low. Too high and you risk doing all sorts of damage.
SO...
saddle was slightly nose down, now spirit leveled and now moved back to center. Main thing was I had it 2 inches too high according to the .883 calculation above - now rectified too.
Cant test it tonight - daughters maths home work beckons!
again, thanks to all for their advice, i will get back once i get the time to try it out, cheers,
paul
2 inches too high
😯
That's a fair bit! Did you take a few inside leg readings as it can be a bit tricky to get right.
It will probably feel strange to pedal at first, I imagine you might've been been pointing your toes to reach the pedals previously.
Don't be worried about lowering it further if needs be. Also, you might find you'd be comfier with lower bars now aswell.
Two nches is very impressive! Most ive lowered someone's saddle was about an inch and a half. And they were six inches taller than you.
Forget the stem, now ride it and see how it feels.
charge spoon on the mtb, decathlon cheapo on the new road bike...
it would be worth swapping over the saddles if all the above advice doesn't solve it. I would have done that as the first step to rule out something very obvious...
Two inches?!!! 😯
Didn't see anyone mention stretching and yoga apologies if I missed it. Position is important but if your hips won't rotate and you can't touch your toes your body will always force your bits into the saddle when you lean forwards. Stretch daily and ride the road bike more and your body will adapt. When it does you won't need millimetre precision on saddle position to be comfortable. Between now and then just be realistic about your limits for riding and stop if you get too numb. Also mess about with position, you may well find something that works. Maths is not that something 🙂
You get numb on a turbo but you are fine out in the real world? There's your answer!
Rule #5