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Really seem to be struggling with the fit on my new Boardman road bike, I've never had these problems before and it's usually just a case of a few small tweaks to saddle height etc. Prior to this I was riding a Langster that was a bit too big so compensated with a 60mm stem which was actually very comfortable. And before that a 54cm CAAD8 with 90mm stem slammed which was also comfortable.
It's a size small which is meant to be suitable for my height (around 172cm with a short 73cm inseam) but it still feels a bit long and low. Stem doesn't look massively long, think it's 80 or 90mm, spacers are maxed out. I still seem to be naturally grabbing the bars just around the start of the rubber on the hoods rather than the hoods themselves. The stack height seems very low as well, but I'm comparing it to the Langster which has a super long/tall head tube. I also can't seem to settle on a comfortable saddle height.
The issues I'm getting are shoulder/neck aches, right foot cramps and saddle sores which I've never really suffered with, even when I wasn't using a padded short. Here's a side shot of the bike, does anything look glaringly obviously wrong with bar/hood positioning etc?
Anyway I've seen MyVeloFit and wondering if anyone's used it and is it worth a shot before splashing out 4x as much for a proper in-person fit?
Can't comment on the online thing but...
Having splashed out £250 on a bike fit for a bike I could not get comfy on (shoulder, knee and neck pain, plus struggling for power) and then ridden some of my longest/hilliest rides ever on it shortly after with all my discomfort eliminated (apart from discovering I didn't like the saddle as much as I thought I did on longer rides) I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
In the three hour session all these adjusted in harmony.
- Saddle front - back
- Saddle - tilt
- Saddle - height
- Bar rotation
- Bar height
- Brake lever positioning
- Cleats
- Insole support added on both shoes
I will confess I was firmly in "snake oil" on this for a long time until I caved in and tried it. Basically every item was a bit wrong. The skill in the fit is at least partly being in understanding how each affects the other.
For example one of my symptoms was knee pain behind the knee where many articles suggest saddle too high. I'd been lowering it = wrong for me.
If you're in/near Hampshire I can happily recommend Vankru.
It's a chunk of cash but it's also good value for the comfort and performance differences I got almost instantly.
Yeah I must admit I'm getting a bit ****ed off with it now tbh, I've never had this much of an issue getting a bike to feel right! I think I've got my saddle height right now but not sure on the fore/aft. And now the new increased saddle height is giving me a bigger seat to bar drop which seems to be giving me lower back ache and my wrist pain has returned. £250 is a big chunk to drop on it though but might be worth it.
Yeah I must admit I'm getting a bit ****ed off with it now tbh,
Sums up exactly where I was in May before I got one done and definitely accompanied with this sentiment...
£250 is a big chunk to drop on it though
There are cheaper options (the person I used had a more wallet friendly option but I had multiple issues so went for the pricier version).
As a professional in a very different area of work I always think "if only people asked for my help sooner I could do so much more for them" and then realised I should maybe do the same with the bike.
I've been riding and tinkering with bikes for as long as I've been able to ride one (40 odd years) and this one just beat me hands down. I would do it again, especially for a drop bar bike.
Here's a side shot of the bike, does anything look glaringly obviously wrong with bar/hood positioning etc?
Have you tried flipping the stem to raise the bars?
Not yet because a flipped stem is ugly, but feel like I might have to admit defeat and at least try it!
Saddle height and fore aft position over the BB are the most important part of a bike fit. Once you’re balanced well over the BB, then bar reach and height. Looking at your bike and symptoms, I’d move the saddle forward and possibly lower by half a cm. Then think about how flexible you are for reach. For a small frame, if want you on a 90-100 stem for reach. I not you’ve rotated the bars so the hoods are a little closer. Better to move bars closer and slide the shifters up the bars slightly. I suspect you are over reaching for the hoods. Do you have bent elbows when on the hoods? Should be a slight elbow bend to absorb some shocks and release tension.
You didn’t say what size your Langster was, but from the stem length it was probably a 52?
I had a retul one done at the Nottingham specialized dealer two weeks ago.
Loads of wee things changed.
Low pressure sales pitches for saddle, shoes, stem, and at the start your bike is too big 😧
Actual changes
Narrower saddle
Saddle pushed forward ( I would have never done this)
Pedals spaced out
Shoes cleats spaced out
High arch insoles. I don't know I had high arches.
Bar tilted
Spacers put under stem.
150 miles on it feels better.
Saddle height and fore aft position over the BB are the most important part of a bike fit. Once you’re balanced well over the BB, then bar reach and height. Looking at your bike and symptoms, I’d move the saddle forward and possibly lower by half a cm. Then think about how flexible you are for reach. For a small frame, if want you on a 90-100 stem for reach. I not you’ve rotated the bars so the hoods are a little closer. Better to move bars closer and slide the shifters up the bars slightly. I suspect you are over reaching for the hoods. Do you have bent elbows when on the hoods? Should be a slight elbow bend to absorb some shocks and release tension.
You didn’t say what size your Langster was, but from the stem length it was probably a 52?
Langster is a 54cm and felt too big with both the stock 110mm and then a 90mm stem. I tried an old 60mm MTB stem on it which seemed to fit me way better, so guess it was at least a size too big. This Boardman is a small with 95mm stem. I've matched the BB to saddle height to the Langster now (don't know why I didn't just measure it before!) and it feels better to pedal but probably need to adjust the fore/aft now.
By move the bars closer do you mean rotate forwards/down?
At your height I’m not surprised! I’m 179 and ride a 54 Langster with 120 stem. Try moving your saddle forwards and down a little, then think about reach. Half cm at a time forward, then down or up. Typically BB will be 8cm in front of saddle nose as a starting guide. I like the 0.883 inseam as a starting point for saddle height.
You move bars by changing stem length. Angle is personal on the drops but reach is stem and frame size AFTER saddle position. Only after all that do I set the shifters for comfort on the hoods.
Whereas I ride a 54cm Langster Pro at 175cm but I have long legs / short torso. It would be way too long for me if I had hoods (I don't have hoods as ride brakeless so fits perfectly using 100mm reach drops to give lots of bar to hold onto)
Longs legs / short torso is a bad combination as saddle is high meaning saddle to bar drop is larger when riding a shorter frame with typically shorter headtube. I don't know what your body is like but sounds similar to mine if you are needing short reach?
I'm short leg/long torso or arms I guess, but it still feels like too much reach/weight on my hands to me. I suppose it could just be that my core needs more work as I've been riding the Langster for the past year or so and got used to the more upright riding position, since it has a massive head tube and the saddle to bar drop is a lot less. Am currently wondering whether I'd have been comfier on the medium with a short stem to get that taller stack height, but may still have been too long..
If the saddle is in the correct position you don’t have to worry about core strength. You take the weight through your legs mostly. Too much through the arms will give you aches, and is normally because the saddle is too far back and you are leaning over too much. I don’t think your Boardman is too small, but your Langster is too big. Most people can manage a saddle drop of about 5 cm without issues. 10 gets harder.
When on the hoods, how much bend is there in your elbows? A min of 10 degrees is needed. When bent over aero style, elbows should be about 90 degrees with hands on the hoods. That helps to set bar height as how far you bend over is a function of your flexibility (not much in my case!) Most people can’t get 90 degree elbows on the drops. As that’s really bent over! But riding on the drops and bends should be comfortable. They are drop bars after all. I like to spend about a third of a ride on the drops or bends. More on gravel off road as that’s where the bike control is best.
Just here to comment how amused I am by the armchair fitters suggesting changes based entirely on a pic of the bike. No pic of the OP, and certainly not of the OP on the bike or riding it.
I have no idea how good MyVeloFit is but would politely suggest it’s a whole lot better than someone commenting on a pic of the bike alone.
I'm short leg/long torso or arms I guess, but it still feels like too much reach/weight on my hands to me.
This is also me. Too much weight on hands is not necessarily too long a reach. Short stem, small frame, long torso and 5'8 doesn't equate too long for my mind.
TiRed is right about core/arm strength. There's an Australian bike fitter who explains this interaction really well. I'll see if I can find his channel.
I pulled out a couple of pictures of our bikes (my bike fitted one and my two sons' bikes that we've had much more luck with setting up at home as I can watch them ride) and then looked at yours again.
This is just roughly based on that and the fact you have some fit issues that sound similar to some of mine and from what I remember from my fit and some common symptoms I had with yours.
Saddle
Looks to be pan flat. Since my bike fit all of ours are nose down (just a little). What I was told is it causes your hips to rotate into the right position for pedalling efficiency but it also helps your upper body lean into the correct reach as reaching forward doesn't strain the hip joints.
I'd say the amount of nose down is about one "notch" on one of those old school toothed seatposts. In your picture my saddle nose would be overlapping that next metal railing in the gate.
I was dubious (for about 3 minutes) but again the natural action of your legs holds you in place not your arms.
Saddle might need to come up a bit to compensate.
Bars
One other thing I am looking at is your bars. The bottoms look like they are pointing down (at the back). But also the section from the tops to the hoods slopes away towards the hoods before the main curve and your levers are pulled up really high and so tilted back, which I guess is to bring them closer.
That shape will give you a little V at the base of the brifters and an awkward kink at the wrist. That might be contributing to you favouring gripping at the base of the brifters as it doesn't aggravate the wrists.
I had a set of bars with similar geometry on my old Bianchi. It created an awkward wrist angle in behind the levers. They went in the bin very recently as my son (who has acquired it from me) immediately hated them/spotted the issue. See pic.
The new bar is essentially flat from the corner of the tops until the main drop curve when the bottoms are also flat. The brake levers are then up near the top of the curve.
There's a thing about shoulder position as well. If your shoulders push back (spine forward, shoulders back) that can be a sign you are lacking reach and / or drop. Your arms are looking for more room so the shoulders go back. I always thought it was the torso trying to shorten the bike by dropping forward (seems that isn't right in many cases).
One video from the guy I thought explained things pretty well.
It is a lot less clumsy trying to explain the bar point than I was above.
Looking again I think I did your bars a disservice as it's hard to see on the phone screen
There's way too many variables, feel like I'm going round in circles haha. I've moved the seat forward 5mm so will give it a proper try hopefully later today if I have time for a ride! Then I'll probably just give the AI thing a go and see what it recommends.
Failing that, anyone got a recommendation for a good reputable fitter around Northants/MK area?
100% go and get a proper bike fit at a fitter with a good reputation. They'll assess your flexibility, injuries, goals, etc., before getting you in the ideal position. Money well spent to ride more comfortably and, likely, more efficiently.
IS this the SLR 8.8?
The size guide says XS for inseam 70-78cm (you say 73cm in OP), S is for inseam 74-82cm.
A quick search isn't bringing up geometry for this latest model, https://www.boardmanbikes.com/gb_en/products/2340-slr-8.8-2021.html#size doesn't include an XS model, but 378mm reach and 547mm stack with a 90mm stem on the S sounds quite long and low for a road bike to me (I'm 177cm with 82cm inseam, my 58cm Cube Attain GTC Disc '16 is 388/610mm with 110mm adjustable stem at -30 degrees (when lower back is good I have all spacers above stem, when bad all spacers under stem)... A reasonably racey 388mm reach bike would have ~570mm stack.
The 2017 54cm Langster had 390/517mm, while the 52cm had 384/503mm reach/stack, but then it was a track bike geo!
With 73cm inseam, I presume your BB-saddle top is 62-63cm.
With a long torso for your height, you want the saddle further behind the BB, to take weight off your hands.
I found that the high position of the bars on my high stack Cube with the default -6 degree stem, while putting less stress on my back, over longer rides I could end up with really sore shoulders and neck because I was raising them up to get my arms more comfy. Increasing the bar drop by using the -30 degree Deda adjustable stem made a big difference to stop that pain.
I feel like the XS probably would have been too small and doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere anyway!
So I've only had a quick 12 miles on it tonight but the small adjustments I made yesterday seem to have helped a bit. Seat forwards 5mm and adjusted the bar roll and hood positioning a bit. No back ache or sore wrists/numb hands yet, though the wrist pain usually seems to flare up the following day.
When I got my recent road bike I decided to give MyVeloFit a try to see if might help. I'd had a professional bike fit on my previous bike that I was still happy with, but was curious to see how the app might tweak things on my new bike, mostly to account for narrower handlebars and shorter cranks.
To cut a long story short, I didn't quite get on with the app. If I didn't already have a decent fit to fall back on I may have persevered with the troubleshooting but my eagerness to ride my new bike overcame my curiosity about the app. I think they have an intersting system that probably works well if you get the setup right (I think I might have needed to play with camera angles) but I'd struggle to recommend it unless you're happy to play with the software and settings for a while.
My experience of an in-person fit was much more positive. Having a chat with an actual person about what my issues on the bike were and what I wanted from the fit were definitely the most important part of the process. All the velcro-dot retul stuff was clearly a useful tool for the fitter, but only in conjunction with his experience. He'd clearly seen all the problems with my fit before and knew a few ways to resolve them.
As for getting bike fit advice from punters online based on a photo of your bike - that strikes me as a surefire way to drive yourself insane.
Just to say, my advice was not based on the bike picture, but the rider’s previous experience on another bike that didn’t fit (a bike I know and ride). People aren’t that variable and they tend to have similar issues; knee discomfort, too much weight on the hands and shoulders. Over-reaching is also common, and most of the cases I see are saddle position related in some way. And yes I have the badges (not that that really matters).
+1 for Vankru in Lower Upham, Hampshire if you are within suitable distance.
@TiRed your advice may well be excellent advice but the madness lies in trying to filter/prioritise it against all the other suggestions.
For all I know you could just be some dude with odd body morphology and very strong bike fit opinions 😀
Hahaha. I did have a formal bike fit years ago, and my measurements were median for the 26000 measurements on their dataset. Except shoulders. Mine are 2 inches wider than normal so I fit wider bars (but still ride narrow ones for Aeros).
That fit put my saddle too high and too far back, gave knee pain (irritated my ITP) and was generally poor based on my subsequent training and experience.
A video of the rider on a turbo on hoods, drops and bends would be immeasurably more helpful. A video of them riding by on the hoods is often just enough to see over extension. Sadly I’m not in Milton Keynes.
Not me, but this is decent advice and I imagine a good service based on the recommendation and downloadable guide. Says nothing I disagree with.
btw I looked at the saddle height data on the website, and the regression used gives a root mean square error of 12.3 mm. The 0.883 x inseam gives an error of 12.9 mm. That’s from the final fitted saddle height! Hence 0.883 is a good starting value. As is knee over pedal spindle. Where you bend won’t be too far away.
https://www.bikedynamics.co.uk/
if you can’t be bothered to measure inseam, an accurate rule of thumb is saddle should be 0.41 x height in bare feet as males and females have a common inseam to height ratio (on average) of 46-47% hence 0.465 x 0.883 call it 40% of overall height
I had a fit on the TT bike this year from an expert, and I am convinced he could have done the whole thing by zoom call if he wanted - admittedly it was on a bike he knew front to back and inside out. Experienced fitters will instantly see anything outside of the norms, and figure out if there is a reason for it.
Even the bikefit groups on reddit and facebook have some knowledgeable folk in amongst the casuls - a vid posted there (or here) would be a good first step for the OP, anything very wrong will be picked up reliably by just weight of commentary, although you'll hear a lot of bad advice to go with it. Hard to get yourself recorded actually riding, although a vid on the turbo tells a lot.
Langster is a 54cm and felt too big with both the stock 110mm and then a 90mm stem. I tried an old 60mm MTB stem on it which seemed to fit me way better, so guess it was at least a size too big. This Boardman is a small with 95mm stem. I've matched the BB to saddle height to the Langster now (don't know why I didn't just measure it before!) and it feels better to pedal but probably need to adjust the fore/aft now.
so you had a fit “template” before…
Ignoring the frame sizes, did you ever measure the relative positions of the langster’s contact points? Stem length is sort of meaningless in isolation if you don’t know reach and stack.
TBH it sounds like you were on the ‘wrong’ bike but had managed to achieve a good fit, but didn’t measure/note/compare things to replicate the same fit on the ‘right’ bike.
Assuming the you don’t have the Langster to measure anymore, did you take any (scalable) side on photos before flogging it?
Well the '17 Langster 54cm had 390mm reach, would be reduced to ~380mm with all spacers under the stem, plus a 60mm stem felt quite good...
So a combined reach of frame and stem to the bar tops of ~440mm should fit the bill!
I do still have the Langster, IIRC I did compare all the measurements etc with the new bike but I can't really remember, I do tend to go a bit overboard in my research then forget everything as soon as it's bought (autism thing I think)! I'll have to re-fit the 60mm stem and try to compare it. The whole bike overall seems like it feels so much taller than the SLR, I felt really close to the ground when I first got on it!
As for getting bike fit advice from punters online based on a photo of your bike - that strikes me as a surefire way to drive yourself insane.
Yeah that was more just in case there was anything obviously wrong in the setup (ie bar roll, hood position etc) that would be preventing a comfortable fit. I've had a few road bikes (I had the CAAD8 for the longest) but with a MTB background I never really knew if any of them were set up properly haha
There's way too many variables, feel like I'm going round in circles haha
And that's why I'm £250 poorer (but unbelievably more comfy on the bike).
Langster has a higher bottom bracket as it’s designed to be ridden fixed, and you can’t coast through corners.
To measure bike position:
1) prop bike with back wheel against the wall. A corner or alcove helps to it vertical and my kitchen shows the scars.
2) measure distance from wall to BB
3) measure distance from wall to saddle nose (subtract 2-3 for saddle setback)
4) measure distance from wall to stem clamp mid point (subtract 4-2 for reach)
5) measure height of saddle from floor
6) measure height of bar top from floor (subtract 5-6 for drop)
7) measure saddle height from BB along the seatpost to saddle top. Compare with 0.41x height and 0.883x inseam
8) do some simple arithmetic to get saddle set back, reach, bar drop from saddle
9) replicate on new bike backed against the wall
have fun, honestly it’s not that complex.
BTW what size was your CAAD8? Another bike in the TiRed stable. I raced a 54 so am hoping it was a 52, but it was my son’s who is 5’9”.
Mine was a 54 with a 90mm stem and seemed to fit ok with this. I had the stem slammed as well and don't remember it feeling like it fit weird, but I was also younger and fitter back then!
Classic road bike geometry on that bike, apart from the slightly steeper seat tube that shortens the top tube by half a cm to 54.5 for the 54. Those bikes were big for size as it was really a 55 which is my size. Slammed stem is impressive as they had an aggressive shorter head tube (compared to the endurance bike). BB30 press fit bottom bracket means ours still creaks. The 90 stem was what I out my son on, I raced on a 120. Your new bike will fit, just needs a few tweaks. Saddle is my bet. Not quite your Boardman but close.
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/cannondale-caad-8-2015-54,boardman-slr-8-6-2018-s/
Have you tried a Geometry Geeks comparison?
I may have picked the wrong models but if the bikes discussed some far are in the same ballparks then a 54cm Langster stands out against the two other bikes mentioned for having lower stack, longer reach, higher BB and a slightly more upright seat angle than a more "typical" road bike, essentially giving you a more "compact fit" size for size once you slap a 60mm stem on.
Can you put a 50mm stem on the Boardman?
That feeling of being lower to the ground probably comes from having the BB 15mm closer to the ground.
Edit - Just spotted the post above...
The Langster feels massive, there's a chance it's actually a bigger frame size as it was bought used. No stickers or identification marks on it to say for sure, the seat tube measures up at 54cm which Geometry Geeks says is a 58cm, in which case no wonder it's so big!
BB30 press fit bottom bracket means ours still creaks.
I think mine had a threaded BB, it was quite a while ago, maybe a 2011 model.
The crack and fail CAAD8 and it’s awful press fit BB30 is the creaky bike from hell. I don’t even put it on the Kickr any more. The Langster is a screw fit standard BSA. And a lovely rose along with my other fixed wheel bikes (low) Have you had any other bikes the TiRed house hood might have also owned? 🤣
That stem is longer than 90mm, get a shorter one and probably one with some rise on it. Your hoods are also badly positioned (likely as you're compensating for the long reach, as I hope they weren't like that when new, but that amount of backwards angle will affect your wrist angle and might lead to shoulder pain.
For foot issues the main advice is to slam the cleats back as far as they'll go and get decent insoles (you can get knock-off G8's on AliExpress for £15).
Are you using the saddle that came with the bike or have you transferred a saddle to it that you know works for you? If not the latter then try that.
That stem is longer than 90mm, get a shorter one and probably one with some rise on it. Your hoods are also badly positioned (likely as you're compensating for the long reach, as I hope they weren't like that when new, but that amount of backwards angle will affect your wrist angle and might lead to shoulder pain.
I've measured it at 95mm centre to centre, the spec sheet for the bike says 90mm. I have a 90mm Deda I can put on but probably won't feel much difference on that. The hoods were indeed positioned this way from new.
Went for a ride tonight and think I've got the saddle position ok now, I don't feel like I'm missing power from my legs now at least. Still getting the numb hands after about 30 mins though so will investigate bar/hood position some more.