[Closed] Riding steep stuff

You're bound to have to brake at some point. If you can slither down them now, try and identify the really tricky bits and brake less on them and more on the other bits.

You'll then get more confidence due to less slithering, and go faster.

I struggle with steep stuff - think it's about getting the confidence to ride the bike in a neutral sort of position so you can have more control. If you're pushing your weight way back out of fear of going OTB, plus a lot of braking, then the front end of the bike has no grip and you'll likely crash.
I also find it easier if the trail is narrower and twistier, you can take the speed off with the natural terrain. If it's more like a sustained blast down something steep and rocky that is way harder.

Bike makes a massive difference for this sort of thing, what are you riding? It's night and day, confidence wise, taking steep stuff on with an enduro bike than something at the XC end.

I’m better at steep stuff these days than I used to be. I’ve improved since getting a bike with ‘modern’ geometry (Bird Zero TR). It’s a lot more confidence-inspiring than my 150/140mm travel FS bike.
If I had a full-susser that handled like the Zero I dread to think how much trouble I could get myself into!

If its proper steep then you get the added benefit of having your arse on the back tyre to slow your plummet 👍

A dropper post helps loads if you don't have it yet.

Watch one of cathro's last vids where he talks about riding steep sections...

Skills day!

don't lock your arms you need 'em to steer 🙂

I'm just waiting to see what the STW riding God has to say.

If it's proper steep then 20% technique 80% mental.

Dont try to slow down too mucch or stop. Let the bike roll with some braking, but not so much it locks up. Stay in between the wheels and tip the bike to steer it round the trees. You will need some weight on the front wheel to allow it to grip and steer, but its mostly leaning the bike to miss the trees. Let it roll, lean it and look ahead. Obvioulsy your center of gravity needs to be as low as possible, arms and legs bent, saddle dropped, heels down, head up and look at where you want to go.

Its too easy to crap yourself, lock up everyting and slither into an impact, where as allowing it to roll keeps the grip, keeps you upright. Sure, its fast and frightening, but thats the fun bit.

Knee pads help 🙂

I’m just waiting to see what the STW riding God has to say.

@DezB, i'm curious about that too 😀

Bike's a Cube Stereo TM 140 so it's reasonably slack and has good forks and a dropper etc so I'm pretty sure it's not the bike holding me back, it's just confidence and practice I think?

Try to sort where you are looking as well, not so far that you aren't paying attention to what you are riding over but not so close that you can't pick your lines. Proper slow steep stuff will be about 2 - 4m ahead (for me) and occasional glances at the wheel when it has to go a certain way. The more you do it the less you will have to work your brakes. Speaking of which, something that lets you work one fingered makes a world of difference and lets you control your descent better than even two fingers.

A dropper post helps loads if you don’t have it yet.

Only if it has enough drop to make a difference, a lack of one has never held me back. More important that the seat is in the correct position regardless of the post holding it up.

It is a mixture of confidence, technique and practice i would say. I know that i used to work on the principle of 'lean back and you'll be fine' which is not really a good technique so maybe a skills course is worth it if its an option. Otherwise, start on the small steeps and keep at it. You'll be surprised how quickly you stop dragging the brake once you find a steep trail covered in loose stone/scree 😉

There’s a woods near me with some pretty steep trails in them down though the trees.(Longridge fell in case anyone know them)

Interesting, got a grid reference? 🙂

Drop your heels - really push down on steep stuff. It makes a big difference keeping the back wheel heavier, which gives you more grip and braking force. Then try to feather the brakes to keep the wheels rolling not sliding.

Try finding the less steep lines down first before you get to the really steep stuff

I'm trying to think of a windsurfing analogy on this.

Centre of gravity is important - and it's important that it stays behind your front wheel's contact patch. Keeping low helps, but keeping back helps more. In the days before dropper posts we all used to have saddle-shaped bruises on our chests. Braking moves the centre of gravity forwards.

If you keep sheeted in you keep control on the board. Think of braking like sheeting out - as daft as it sounds, it hurts more!

And keep your eyes on the trail a good way ahead. Your brain has already clocked the bit you're riding over right now. Let the bike do the work.

I can imagine which trails you mean from experience on Longridge Fell, although I don't remember any that were too steep. Maybe I need to go and check 🙂

Willalone and Stevet1 have a look at strava from last night, you'll see the steep trail, (or at least steep to me!) there half a dozen along the ridge strava link

Centre of gravity is important – and it’s important that it stays behind your front wheel’s contact patch. Keeping low helps,

Yes

but keeping back helps more. In the days before dropper posts we all used to have saddle-shaped bruises on our chests. Braking moves the centre of gravity forwards.

No. You will end up further back than normal but you still want to keep your arms slightly bent. Try to stay above the saddle not behind it,

The key thing is dropping your heels so that the braking forces throwing you forward push the bike into the ground rather than you over the bars. Jedi will be along in a mo to explain it better than me.

Agree with simons_nicolai-uk. You need to move back a little when it's steep, but you want to keep it to a minimum. Low is good.

The other thing we see a lot with people who are struggling on steeps is locking up the wheels constantly. You can use the brakes on steeps, but you have to fine-tune the amount of braking so that the wheels keep turning and don't locked. You will usually pick up more speed with a locked back wheel than with a turning wheel and delicate braking. You will also have much more steering control if the wheels keep turning.

If you're, say, on holiday in France and you have to figure it out in a hurry that's one thing, in your own time you can really just build up to it if that style of learning works for you- find something that pushes your confidence limits, then do it in the wet when it's no steeper but harder, and then when you step up to a steeper dry stuff you know you have some margin, and so on. Plain simple steeps to steeps with corners or obstacles in. Just break it up and work through it.

Also I guess, be aware that if it's really steep, frankly most people won't even attempt to ride it- don't ever feel outgunned, give yourself credit for what you do and don't feel beaten down by what you don't do yet. Riding the mega this year really reminded me that there are really competent, confident, fast riders, who can't ride steep stuff at all, just because they've never really had to. Whereas I can't jump for shit but I'm pretty comfortable with the steeps. So it's not a good/bad rider, it's just your own experiences that define it.

It’s definitely an exposure and practice thing - find the steepest thing you dare ride and if you make a mess of it try something less steep and do it tidier. Drop your saddle as far as possible, get low and rather than getting back, stay above the BB and let the bike rotate down the hill. If the front tyre isn’t biting get more weight on your hands - if your body is low you won’t go over the bars unless it’s insanely steep and so grippy that you can brake hard.

As everyone else has said, get low, then get back, but you still want some weight on your hands as otherwise your front wheel has no grip. You want the bike to keep rolling as if the front wheel hangs up it's easy to go otb when it's really steep. Heels dropped, wrists dropped, head looking forward. Be very mindful of where your breaking traction is coming from and be ready to feather the brakes accordingly. If there's steps you'll probably need to easy up on the front break a little as you go over it. It's mainly practice and over coming the mental aspect. If the chutes are soft it's a touch easier as you know it won't hurt so much if you crash. The 2nd stage of the EWS in Whistler this year started on Jaws which averages 40% gradient. It's steep af the whole way down. Go watch Paul the Punter or BC Pov struggle their way down it to make yourself feel better 😛

Setting up the brake levers closer to the horizontal can help, stops you reaching round to brake and forcing you forward. Hope that makes sense.

You've had some good advice here. Especially breaking it up and sessioning. Don't go steaming into complicated technical trails where you have to use all the bike handling skills at once, it can be brain overload til you get used to it!

I find if I don't constantly ride steep trails I almost forget how to do it. I revert back to hovering over the back wheel and hammering the brakes, which puts you in the passenger position with hardly any steering control and will lead to a crash, as well as being really slow.

Treat the arse over the back wheel as a temporary position, only adopted briefly for negotiating obstacles, where keeping the front wheel light so it doesn't hang up is priority number one!

It also depends on the terrain. The Don at GMBN did a 'how to' guide on how to ride the steep terrain and specifically the slabs around Squamish the other week which was met with local hilarity. He's clearly a great rider (ex-WC DH racer) but maybe has issues describing what he does on a bike (I know I do too). He'd say stuff like 'get your weight back and rely on the rear brake'. Good luck with that technique on some of the slabs around here! You'd be a crumpled mess at the bottom within 3 seconds... Weight low, arms bent, weight the front wheel as much as you dare and then squeeze that front brake more than you would ever think possible. Pretty well forget the back brake other than for control. But clearly that technique won't work on cambered wet roots where you want to stay as light as possible on the bike and let it dance around.
I think the whole 'weight back' stems from bikes with short top tubes and long stems. It's easier to stay in a more neutral 'ready for anything' type position with bikes with a longer wheelbase and short stem, and not feel like you are going to get thrown over the handlebar.

If this year had taught me nothing, it's that it's better to walk down and get to ride another day.

Ymmv.

Thanks for the advice. Looks like practice is going to be the key, and knee and elbow pads 🙂

Maybe some super knobbly tyres ? Improved traction and braking / cornering ability
Will allow you to remain in control, as once your skidding you have to release the brakes to let the tyres roll again which is a mmental head issue on steeps
sounds overkill to buy some tyres just to ride a section that might make up 1% of your ride tho, think of the polar bears / planet / environment / baby robins etc

Before my first Alps trips a few years ago, i read the tip "Heavy feet, light hands"...my mantra for that trip and actually seemed pretty spot on

“He’s clearly a great rider (ex-WC DH racer) but maybe has issues describing what he does on a bike”

His guide on how to ride drops is equally confusing - he says you do it by manualling off the edge but when he demos it as he’d ride it he doesn’t do that.

My sticking point seems to be when I have to do multiple things at once, so having to make a sharp turn straight after a drop in the middle of a steep section. It’s definitely something you encounter more on natural trails because water erosion of walking/animal patches creates this kind of feature whilst trail builders try to make things that are more bike friendly!

If it’s proper steep then 20% technique 80% mental.

+1 that. Real steep stuff I would consider as 25% plus, just really messes with my head. I'm not great with heights or exposure and seeing the ground fall away infront of me just instantly puts the fear of god into me.

Some great advise here though.

Regarding the arse on the back wheel stuff. This is my understanding based on what Jedi told me. Forgive the quick tablet sketch, but it's all about Cog. You need to keep your weight pushing through the BB to equalise and maximise grip and stability. If you're just riding along (top stick man) this means you're in the middle of the bike. On steep stuff (bottom stick man) you're still vertically above the BB but it feels like you're over the back wheel. I think this is why some people have problems articulating it.

https://imgur.com/a/FhQltps

I was up at Longridge for the first time a couple of weeks back 🙂

I'm by no means an expert but I do enjoy riding steeper trails. One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned specifically on this thread so far is braking points.

Looking at a given steep trail you'll find there are sections where you can control speed and change direction, and sections where you can't (and indeed, probably don't want to since you want your wheels to keep turning and not hook up on things). So try to plan to do your braking and steering where it'll be most effective, in order to get lined up for the next bit of free-fall.

I think individual genetics pay a big part in this as in any other sport,some people are simply better built for this. i.e they maybe have relatively shorter legs giving them a low ,strong and stable centre of gravity and/or they also need to have a long enough upper body/arm reach to still be in control particularly when needing to steer at the same time as the ground drops away taking the bars further away from them.
I struggle with this myself,I've got relatively long legs with short upper body and forward reach.I do ride/survive steeper stuff but it feels like I will never be able to thrive there.

“I struggle with this myself,I’ve got relatively long legs with short upper body and forward reach.I do ride/survive steeper stuff but it feels like I will never be able to thrive there.”

Extremely long dropper posts and suitably slack bikes with enough but not too much reach make a big difference to this. I have 185mm dropper posts on both bikes and they’ve really helped me on the steeps. And both bikes are fairly long but not super long reach, with slack head angles and thus quite long front centres, so the front wheel is far away without the bars being a stretch.

I'm guessing your taller than me Chiefgrooveguru. I'm 5'7" and run a 150mm dropper, I could fit and ride with a 170mm but I don't think that's the limiting factor for myself. I seem to have the lower body of someone 5'9" and therefore upper body of someone around 5'5" .
Higher bars/front end helps me in regards to this .

“I’m guessing your taller than me Chiefgrooveguru.”

Yes, 5’10.5” tall, 33.5” legs, 6’2” arm span - so although my torso is on the shorter side my arms have plenty of reach. I do prefer high bars though!

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Getting well behind the saddle does have the added benefit of the braking effect of wedging your testicles between the back wheel and seat post. I tried this a couple of times on a trail called Jackson’s in Les Arcs recently.

Remember, it's not steep stuff that hurts. It's speed.

You are less likely to injure yourself seriously on steep descents where you are taking it slow than at say Llandegla or a "flow" track where you may be gunning it.

Remember, it’s not steep stuff that hurts. It’s speed.

Beg to differ...😫

Keep central on the bike n keep your thighs vertical.

Just practice as well....

Duncancallum-I reckon you've hit the nail on the head there and for a lot of people that comes naturally as their body allows this and it works for them without them barely thinking about it,but for what I'm guessing must be around a third of us with long legs and in particular long femurs who feel like they need to lower themselves on the bike to feel more stable which also in turn then puts there legs towards a more angled horizontal and weaker/less braced against the pedals position and their hips further back and further away from the other contact point-the bars .
I think someone above mentioned Paul the Punter-I think he is a prime example of this as he appears to have relatively long legs and seems to struggle with all the things you could predict.

Assume you mean Longridge near chipping?

I can't think anywhere I would consider steep in there but I totally accept everyone is different.

The one thing I think of is 'organised falling' in that I let the brakes off totally if I think they cant stop me and concentrate on the next area I can see in front where I can stop - that might be a less steep bit or dry rock patch or a bank. I effectively stop go my way down

Confidence in my brakes plays a huge effect on this process

I think the whole ‘weight back’ stems from bikes with short top tubes and long stems.

That and saddles that were always UP and you chose early on when faced with a feature whether to be on top or behind the saddle.

Colournoise has it about right, but you need to bear in mind that those both represent a steady speed - you might well hit the trickiest bits of trail letting the speed increase a bit, so your weight would then go a bit further forwards (to the point that your position relative to the bike would stay the same as in the flat picture if off the brakes completely). Conversely braking on a flatish you might move your weight back.

I don't think the weight positioning is the most important thing unless you're sturggling to turn/avoid going OTB though. The main thing is letting the wheels rotate, even if this might sometimes mean allowing the speed to increase. I remember a local drop that the first time I tried I attempted to stay at a constant speed, skidded everywhere and ended up hugging a tree. If you can stay calm and be delicate on the brakes, let the speed increase if needed, it makes it a lot easier. (Of course that particular drop has a fairly straight run out at the bottom)

Whilst everyone is here. Where’s the best place to park for Whalley/Longridge trails? And then to access them?

cos all my locat trails arnt that steep i find i have to make an effort to move my arse further back the bike on proper steep stuff compared to my usual position on local 'steeps'. It takes me a couple of goes on steep trails to work it out then i'm fine up to 'pretty darn steep'. Weighting teh back wheel for grip is key for me, as is steering with teh hips and not locking the front wheel.(this may not be as per teh tutorial but it works really well for me!) there was one local trail that was mental though (cunning labelled the flat track) and i only made it down once or twice without coming a cropper.

I think the whole ‘weight back’ stems from bikes with short top tubes and long stems.

It's all about keeping your weight centred between the wheels - having a short bike and long stem makes that harder though as does having the saddle up.

Whilst everyone is here. Where’s the best place to park for Whalley/Longridge trails? And then to access them?

Part at Hurst Green and take the bridleway to to Longridge fell, if you've not ridden there before it can be tricky to find the good stuff and there's been some logging which has blocked some routes.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1591918135#43313069577.

Assume you mean Longridge near chipping?

I can’t think anywhere I would consider steep in there but I totally accept everyone is different.

I'd hate to see what you consider steep then.! The one we went down was 30% according to strava and there a few steeper

30% ?

There's roads steeper than that.

I’m just waiting to see what the STW riding God has to say.

@DezB, i’m curious about that too

Come on! Where is he?

There’s roads steeper than that.

Sure, but tarmac is a completely different ball game to dirt. Steepest near me is probs "black Pig" which is average 30% and 45% at it's steepest, but is loose loam and pretty tight turns, there's nowt much else to do than get low and comfy, heels down, commit and look as far ahead as possible.

45% is only about 30 degrees. Stairs are 42 degrees typically and even they aren't that steep compared to some features on trails.

The 30% is Strava's rating not mine. I guess it's an average as the start of the run was ridable even for me.

Doesn't alter the fact the steep bits were steep and I struggled to ride down it 🙂

Thanks for the parking knowledge Windysurfer. Went up there yesterday, nice to ride somewhere different and the bottom of DH2 is quite steep. Especially in the wet.

Late to the party, but i try to think about momentum rather than angle when it comes to steep trails!

ie, if there is a REALLY steep bit (and it might actually be vertical, so you need to pop / hop off it) then in order to limit your momentum on exit, you need to enter it going really slowly. If you brake a descent up into sections, stop the parts where you can trade momentum. Ie, i can brake their, so i am going to gain momentum, but there is a small root/berm where i can loose that momentum i have just gained. At some point, depending on your skill, you can't see enough places to loose the momentum you will gain, and hence the drop becomes "impossible"......

LLS bikes deffinately help here, because the middle of the bike is so much wider thanit used to be, meaning you can concentrate less on balance and more on momentum.

For those saying that 30/40% isn't steep, Strava rates Champery WC track at an average of 26.1%. Even at it's steepest it never goes over 50% from what I can see.

Obviously this is Strava , so taken with a pinch of salt, but anything I've ridden over 40% (by Strava) in the alps I've considered steep.

Yeah, average steepness is meaningless, you could have a mile long trail with a 20 metre drop in it and on average it's basically flat.

Back side of Longridge is fricken steep. I'd compare it to a much shorter version of Gawton in places. Well worth a visit.