[Closed] Riding position, something became apparent yesterday to me.... go on... analyse

That's odd. Aren't you dropping the dropper?

That’s odd. Aren’t you dropping the dropper?

Course i am 🙂 but it's still hitting... not all corners, i'd say more long sweepers...

Maybe you’re gripping the saddle as you’re riding? I know before droppers I used to do similar and when I first starting using a dropper I didn’t like not having the saddle there - maybe it was a comfort / support thing.

I don’t do it anymore I don’t think - my dropper is frequently either full or partially dropped out the way. I also think on downhill sections it probably is behind me - nowhere near my thighs.

Given your previous issues with a long bike that needs to be ridden centrally / with front weighted it does suggest perhaps you’re a bit further back than ideal.

When you’ve had coaching have you been picked up on it / have you got any videos from the session you can look back at?

How far forward/middle/back is your saddle?

How much drop on the dropper?

It seems to not be on both sides from a gripping context. When pushing the bike down into the corner. So yesterdays track for example it was on both sides, but at different times, some on lefts some on rights.

The more i think about it, the more i think i've always done it.

I've not had much coaching matey, the boy gets most of it rather than me.

I don't even have many shots to show my position on the bike i'm afraid.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51520720139_e8e34205a6_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51520720139_e8e34205a6_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2muHa9g ]2021-09-26_05-37-30[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

Couple here on Roots n rain
https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/6581074/rider/113409

https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/6592975/rider/113409

https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/6581067/rider/113409

Not many 'cornering' pics though to compare

How far forward/middle/back is your saddle?

Middleish of rails.

How much drop on the dropper?

150mm

I don't think it's something to worry about, tbh.

I remember reading somewhere that they tried making racing BMXs without saddles but riders didn't like them. Turns out they were using the saddles to stabilise the bikes in corners.

Unless it's causing issues other than just some bruising I wouldn't worry about it.

Unless it’s causing issues other than just some bruising I wouldn’t worry about it.

Not as such no.... i think to a great extent it's just how i ride. But as you may have seen i'm currently trying to get a bit quicker therefore trying to analyse my riding at times, both while out on the trails and also when at home.

I was a bit disappointed when i got home yesterday with how little i realised i'd been pumping on the little down-steps/rolls and wondering if i could have picked up more time from that.

Along with trying to get off the brakes earlier in the corners, well, actually trying to get off them completely lol, but that's easier said than done as we all know.

Can't remember where I read it but with modern steep seat tube angles, this is why droppers are needed - in the days old old 70 degree seat angles, you stood up for cornering and the seat was behind you. Now, even stood up the seat is right up there. I find it very hard to lay the bike over without the seat dropper.

Maybe you need a bigger dropper (if you can fit one)?

I am not a coach or anything...but if the saddle hits my inside leg that tells me that I am not pushing the bike down hard enough into the corner. Ie I have become too static on the bike. So I go and do that run again and try to nail that corner with some better separation between bike and body.

Sounds like you are not leaning the bike enough in corners. You are leaning yourself instead.

Engage the side knobblies on the tyre by leaning the bike. Inside hand down, outside foot down. Get low on the bike, pump the corners. You'll have more grip and go faster too.

I'm crap at this technique but when I remember/get it right it feels great.

THe one side thing might be related to your stronger side when cornering. I feel a lot more comfortable cornering to the right than I do to the left. I get similar bruising sometimes but I have so much more to improve I dont really worry about it!

Something I might work on in the next year but I feel your pain!

separation between bike and body.

This.
It's a mountain bike not a road motorbike.
Lean the bike in more and your body less.

Maybe get yourself a coaching session - getting set up in a good position is key. My last coaching session was 2018 after having a series of similar crashes and I’m still using everything from that session now where I remember. One if the points was more aggressively pushing the front down over rollers and small features on the trail.

On cornering it was keeping elbows with a bit of bend, twisting your hips into the corner, pushing down on the inside handlebar and pushing down on the outside pedal.

Got another coaching session this weekend at FOD which I’m looking forward to. Assuming I get my new frame built up - if not it jumps and drops and tech on the hardtail.

Armchair analysis: Weights to far back and your in the defensive position in the photo BUT a photo is useless as riding a bike is dynamic and in Cathros videos above you'll see he is often in a position where his saddle could be hitting his thigh.

It's easier said than done moving your weight forward as it takes a lot more upper body and core strength to ride in that position. That's why as you fatigue you'll move your weight back to utilise your legs more.

I have had this mildly when riding bikes with short droppers down lots of long steep tech.

It could be your body is inside on your turn

It could be your body is inside on your turn

It does seem to be the gist of it. I've obviously had some cornering coaching from you and from Katy Curd, but having the coaching and then doing it in anger on a trail is SO much harder, you know what you SHOULD be doing but actually persuading yourself to hold the correct position is kinda tricky as you're trying to brake late, corner hard, get on the power, not crash, all these things all at once and i find trying to break down elements so you're doing everything 'right' is pretty tough. Sometimes the trail puts you in a position where your body is off balance or you brake too late, take a berm too high/low/wrong.

I think looking at my pics and others pics it's likely a combination of a bit too far back and a bit too bodyweight inside.

I relate it to your 'side of the hill' training and whilst i try and replicate it at times, as i say above, when out in anger, it's so so so much harder to remember.

Harder hand pressure than foot pressure or the bike sits up

I've not bothered to read any other replies.
You look like your are kind of riding road motorbike and your general stance is a bit weak and in the fear position. The fact you have thought about it is a good step.

Your arms are in a dropped elbow position, You want to be strong for control of the front. (far from perfect example but tink about how your arms feel doing a pushup when you elbows are in different positions). If you can get your head around weighting the front and what pressure through your hands feels like you'll feel a lot more in charge of the bike.

Looks like you are not applying weight to the outside of the bike in the corner, and not leaning the bike and loading the side knobs for grip.

Seriously think about some coaching, not a public group session as there isn't enough focus in individuals, maybe a 2 to one to make it feel better value. Make sure the coach uses video analysis feedback throughout the sessions so you can see how different what you think you are doing to what you are actually doing.

Hope that didn't come across wrong, in a bit of a rush to type it. 👍

Your foots quite far back on the pedals in that picture, so your lower half is back, then your leaning forward a lot to get over the front of the bike, try bringing your feet a bit further forward. 150mm drop is not awful, but 170mm helps get the seat out the way better on a bike with a steep seat angle.

Hi weeksy, I’d find a bit of trail with a couple of corners and session it next time you’re out. If you’re at FOD and go up the middle push up fireroad there’s a good sequence of corners there on the left. It’s after the top section of sheepskull - you cross the first fireroad and then take the left hand option rather than the right. You’ve got a right handed followed by a left hander that both have a similar radius of corner - it’s where Katy C does some coaching. Nice straight bit before hand to get setup and they flow nicely.

You’ve got a right handed followed by a left hander that both have a similar radius of corner – it’s where Katy C does some coaching

Yeah i know it... i've done it with her 🙂

Hope that didn’t come across wrong, in a bit of a rush to type it.

As long as it's in the right context, you can be as firm/harsh/whatever as you (or anyone) likes.. The only time i start getting arsey is when people tell me "sounds like you're rubbish" type comments which brings nothing to the conversation and doesn't help 🙂

Happily this thread hasn't gone that way at all, so yeah, it's all good.

Your foots quite far back on the pedals in that picture, so your lower half is back,

It's certainly not as far as SPD type position, but yeah, it's not as 'middle' ish as Jedi teaches...

Your arms are in a dropped elbow position, You want to be strong for control of the front. (far from perfect example but tink about how your arms feel doing a pushup when you elbows are in different positions)

Thinking more on this part, i'd say the position in the pic is pretty close to my usual rding position, which is certainly closer to 'racer' position than a year ago, but clearly yes, not as far forward and over the front end as i could/should be.

Seriously think about some coaching, not a public group session as there isn’t enough focus in individuals, maybe a 2 to one to make it feel better value. Make sure the coach uses video analysis feedback throughout the sessions so you can see how different what you think you are doing to what you are actually doing.

This will likely sound a bit silly... but i can't see that happening mate. The spare budget is going to the boys racing, his coaching and training, he's already got another coaching day with WyeMTB and with Katy in the coming months, adding more expense just for me to go from last to 2nd last isn't on the cards... I know that sounds daft, but i'd rather get him faster than myself.

“I know that sounds daft, but i’d rather get him faster than myself.”

Conversely, the better you understand how to ride fast, the more you can help him.

I’m forever plagued by being better at seeing/understanding how to ride well than how to actually do it in the heat of the moment!

Conversely, the better you understand how to ride fast, the more you can help him.

LOL that boat has sailed a long time ago matey.... it's like 2 different sports my riding and his.

That's his... If Katy were to do a stills shot of 'training position i teach' i think he'd be perfect for her...

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51714279645_eb2c6d25cb_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51714279645_eb2c6d25cb_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mMPcD8 ]2021-11-29_06-13-22[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr

I've had it in a crash before!

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51744437090_4e3a85b0cb_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51744437090_4e3a85b0cb_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mQtLp5 ]IMG_20210713_113210[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/183377889@N06/ ]Luke Bradley[/url], on Flickr

I used to get it on my hardtail which used to have a full carbon saddle that was basically a solid lump of carbon with some foam on top but that was from riding steep stuff and it being a bit in the way - are you sure it's from corners not from steep stuff? (Assuming there's any steep stuff at Swinley, there certainly wasn't any I could find when I went there)

are you sure it’s from corners not from steep stuff?

pretty much yes... yesterday for example and Saturdays riding didn't have any steep at all. Is it more prevalent in steep, i don't know.... but it's something i'll consider more from now on.

“I know that sounds daft, but i’d rather get him faster than myself.”

Conversely, the better you understand how to ride fast, the more you can help him.

I know you've spoken recently about 1) a morzine trip next summer and 2) some of his races still require an adult chaperone due to his age.

I realise that you aren't going to be riding his back wheel when he's at race pace with a gopro on so you can analyse his technique in detail; but upping your game to ride with him his going to be a great help for him, and also good for the whole father son bonding thing.

Warning: massive guess: maybe that leg is weaker and giving out when tired dropping you/it onto the saddle?

Maybe its the perspective in the pictures, but it looks like your bike is too small.

I had this with a Charge saddle - it was just not cut away enough, and regularly rubbed on my thigh on descents.

Even now with much narrower cut saddles, I on occasion bruise my thigh.

I put it down to throwing shapes on a bike while sporting mahoosive muscles 😎

I get exactly this, and have done for ages.
I like left hand corners and tend to lay the bike over into my left inner thigh with a 200mm dropper fully slammed. I've been trying to improve my right hand turns recently and notice I'm getting it there too.

Will see if I can get further forward.

FWIW I hired a Trek Fuel at Maydena (steep AF) a couple of years ago and noticed the seat tube was way higher than I'm used to. The guy in the shop reckoned I'd need to grip the seat more with my legs and I certainly did.

Maybe its the perspective in the pictures, but it looks like your bike is too small.

I did wonder this - if he hinged more at the waist that might put him too far forward over the bars possibly.

But Weeksy did have a longer bike and didn’t like it - maybe too much longer? I don’t know what size G170 is / how it compared to the large Aether

The G170 is in a Large 2018, i'm just on/under 6'0. It certainly doesn't feel too small.

Looks like the g170 is 478mm reach in that case with quite a high front end.

At 6’ that’s not crazy short or anything.

I've sent you a message, it to me sounds like you may need to do your team... some structured planning. Coaching from lots of different coaches isn't always a great way to do things as you'll probably keep covering the same ground. Sometimes it can be great as you find someone who can explain things in a way that works for you.

Maybe do some analysis of your own riding with each other and slow mo some sections, try different stuff and do your own feedback?

99% of his coaching is with Katy. It's only because WyeMTB had a cheap day over Xmas that we've gone for that day for him. He's then back with Katy in Feb and i think April/May, i lose count 🙂

The riding analysis is something to work on for sure yes... He followed me down a few trails yesterday "brake less and corner faster" yeah mate, awesome feedback ! 😀 😀

I used to get this all the time on my DH bike which I'd built up with really light bits for some reason. The SLR 135g saddle I had on it was "like a razorblade" in that it was so thin and had so little padding it regularly sliced into the inside of my thighs on corners & other features.

I've since changed it for something with sides that isn't a whole load heavier but is much more comfortable to brace against.

It's hard to visualise speed and trail attributes from pictures but, it does look like you could do with being stood up and forward more. You appear to be in a default scared position. By that I mean one that will get you over most unknown terrain without going OTB or stalling, but it is also one that doesn't allow for much front end confidence or ability to charge through a section.

I say this with confidence as I also suffer from it, especially when tired as riding hard and fast takes it out of the upper body and core more than it ever used to many years ago.

I also relate this to pre dropper days as I used to grip the saddle with my thighs when going down. Never realised until I got a dropper and couldn't do it any longer. The very first ride was a disaster and felt so awful I sent the dropper back. Took a few more rides some months later to realise what the problem was. I then repositioned myself further forward on the downs. This took away the saddle bashing and gave me a lot more confidence to increase speed, knowing my front tyre would bite instead of being washy.

In a nutshell, I'd try standing upright on the pedals, then crouch a bit to get the feel right. But do it without sitting backwards and also keep your arms up so you can position the bars where needed. Will feel stupid at first but might help.

Oh yeah it happened to me with the Flite SLR.

I looked at some of the Roots n Rain photos and I have to say that somehow, not exactly sure why, but you look really slow in those photos. Maybe it's because you seem to be in the same position in all of them. Like you're just squatting there and letting the bike roll you down the hill. I'm no superstar mainly because of a self preservation instinct but I think you have to really move your body around a lot more. An MTB corner is a whole body movement, all the way through the corner. Are you just not physically strong enough to do this?

I always think of downhill skiers when descending twisty trails. Maybe try and catch some on telly this winter?

Looking at your other photos too, it looks like your hips and hamstrings are really tight - your bending/hunching over instead of hingeing at the hips with a flat strong back. That hip tightness probably also means your lateral body movement is limited.

I know why I look slow 🤣

Do you session trails, or ride the same local stuff over and over again?

Sorry to have to say this. Maybe you have thunder thighs?

Maybe you have thunder thighs?

Of that there's very little doubt... i'm not only a bit lardy, but also have big legs anyway.

Do you session trails, or ride the same local stuff over and over again?

TBH mate we don't really have 'trails' in the trails context. Hence why more often than not i'm at FoD, 417, BPW, etc of a weekend. Certainly more so at this time of the year too when the trails we do have a more a mud-fest than anything.

So do i session trails.... well kinda... if you class doing say Sixtapod 3 times in a day... But if you mean do i do small sections, go back, practice a section again etc.... Then no, not really.

If you're with someone faster could you video them riding a corner or set of corners and watch it lots of times? Re the original topic, watch where their saddle is relative to their thighs?

If you’re with someone faster could you video them riding a corner or set of corners and watch it lots of times? Re the original topic, watch where their saddle is relative to their thighs?

No reason why that's not possible

Are we sure it's definitely the saddle causing the bruising and not a #humblebrag? 😉
More supportive shorts or strapping perhaps?

So do i session trails…. well kinda… if you class doing say Sixtapod 3 times in a day… But if you mean do i do small sections, go back, practice a section again etc…. Then no, not really.

Do it.

I'm up in the Tweed Valley so able to go and session very popular trails, when they're empty. Works wonders. In fact we're out tomorrow with the sole intention of sessioning some new/changed local trails.

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no knee pads... the bravery of the youth is strong! 😀

lol silly sod... i'd not noticed that !!!! 99/100 he wears them.... not sure how/why we forgot yesterday there !!!

I'm no expert, but why is your front wheel off the ground going into a tight turn with an adverse camber? Seems sub-optimal and points at rearward bias rather than pushing the front in.

Maybe its the camera angle.

Edit: oh, its your lad.

We think it must have just been a stone/rock/something..

HIs.... not mine... mine below.

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