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Out with a mate for a road ride today and got shouted at by the passenger of a car who was unhappy we were riding two abreast. We were doing about 20 through a village with a narrow section of road that wouldn't have been safe to pass us on even if we'd been in single file and the car passed us as soon as the road widened with the passenger hanging out of the window shouting that we should have been in single file when there's traffic around. Apparently, he's a cyclist so knows what he was talking about. What is the hive mind's take on this?
It's perfectly legal.
It may not always be sensible.
Cough at him as he drives by. If he's close enough to be offended, he's too close.
Classic case of passengers being ****s.. Always ride 2 abreast in that situation to discourage close overtakes. Unfortunately car drivers can't wait 10 seconds anymore
No, 2 abreast is in the highway code, its fine. For politeness I tend to single out where cars can pass, but that's my perogative. Best ignored, probably not a cyclist, just a bell end justifying bell endery.
I do at times, mostly because I'm with my 12 year old so protecting him.
Not always, depends when the car comes and how clear a view they have. If approaching a bend I think they shouldn't overtake on, I'll actively discourage if with my positioning.
Had a few yesterday that were rubbish on a road we need to link up trails, the overtake would have been ok, if they'd looked and seen 2 small ones had pulled 20m on our 2, so they then had too big a gap to do in one hit, but not enough space to pull Inbetween.
Do you not keep socially distanced when out with others?
Of course Yay. It is legal and, more often than not, safer
Simple truth is that if a driver can’t safely overtake riders who are two abreast, then it probably isn’t safe for them to overtake riders in single file either. There are not many circumstances where two abreast prevents drivers from legally and safely overtaking
How close together do you think we were?
Of course Yay. It is legal and, more often than not, safer
Simple truth is that if you can’t safely overtake two abreast, then it probably isn’t safe to overtake single file either.
That's what I thought, but I wasn't certain.
This was tweeted by Surrey's Road policing unit a while ago - explains their view on the subject
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The passenger was two abreast with the driver, right?
And presumably when they pass another car he must shout the same at them… I mean, he’s going to be logically consistent, suuuurely, so he would expect the driver of the slower car to rearrange their car into single file so that they don’t have to move fully into the other lane to pass.
Yes the Surrey Road interpretation above sums up good practice.
Anyone who is prepared to lean out of a car window and shout at you is automatically an idiot, and you don't have to take any notice of them.
Nothing wrong with two abreast just get in when a car comes behind people are so impatient at the minute even though the roads are quiet classic was the other morning coming along a road two cyclist two abreast car behind could not pass them because I was cycling the other side of road so he blow the the horn at them only had to wait 5seconds no hope.
It's legal, and recommended in certain situations, including the one in the opening post if I understand it correctly.
People that aren't aware probably need to revisit their driver/cycle training.
Two abreast may have prevented the driver squeezing by when there wasn't enough room for a safe pass.
Every driver who has ever had a go at me has always said “I’m a cyclist too”
Yeah right🤪
Anyway 2 abreast is fine but you should single out if there’s a queue of traffic behind. Even if it’s just for image sake e.g your not out for a chat and holding up traffic and not giving a sh##.
Sometimes you need to think about how it looks to the driver rather than purely practical overtaking opportunities.
I have an issue with this
2 abrest, starting say 1mtr from the kerb, plus bike say 44cm, plus 1mtr gap between riders. Then add in 44cm for second rider 2.88mtr
On most roads it the becomes difficult for the overtaking car to give the outer rider 1.5m of space as you have taken up 4mtr of roadspace. If you include 1.12 of passing space
Ok on alot of roads each lane is 3mtr wide but car drivers dislike fully crossing the the white lines, and wont drive in the gutter of the opposing carriageway
I guess if you do this you have to accept that the outer rider is going to be passed at under 1mtr, somtimes by dick heads, but somtimes unavoidably
Lots of muppets in cars and an equal amount on bikes.
As an old roadie I am constantly amazed by how shit a large number of road cyclists are at actually riding along. I used to go out for 40-50 mile rides with a training partner and we would ride close enough together side by side to bump elbows because we were used to riding close from racing. We knew when to single out, when to ride side by side.
Watching the wobbly wheelers these days wandering about metres apart makes me sad...
I have an issue with this
And yet the Police don't, based on their guidance posted further up.
No, 2 abreast is in the highway code, its fine. For politeness I tend to single out where cars can pass, but that’s my perogative. Best ignored, probably not a cyclist, just a bell end justifying bell endery.
Pretty much this..
I'm a cyclist too you know! But I have to admit to getting realy pissed off with large groups of road riders here in the dales. Most carriageways here are pretty narrow and I often get stuck behind a group who seem to be on some kind of training ride they will often be two or three abreast and spread along quite a length of road making it really difficult to pass safely. I can often be stuck at twenty or less mph behind them for a mile or more before I can pass safely. There doesn't seem to be any consideration for the fact that many people on the roads during the week are actually working and have to get somewhere. As a postie I am under genuine pressure to get around at a decent speed which can be difficult enough without hold ups.
How mamy mm's apart are those riders in the Surrey police pictogram?
No covid spacing
No allowance for pot holed roads
No allowance for sidewinds
No allowance for dogs/cats/ pedestrian stepping put
Also holding a tight line on an open public highway isnt easy
I get nervous if someone i know gets within say 60cm
Be realistic, and i have ridden on Surrey s roads and they are shocking
Totally do it but if you going single file then lets another vehicle safely past then do so.
I ride with one other and we often go in line and give an indicator to cars behind if it is unsafe to pass. My mate goes one step further and waves cars through, I am nervous in case do so and it turns out bad.
If we had ridden side by side more when out today we would have avoided some terrible overtakes by not giving the impression of space - but that would have ended up pissing drivers off even more.
Toss up between an accidental close pass from someone naive to the danger and having some dickhead trying to run you off the road as you held them up for a few moments.
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Absolutely fine. I’ve noticed the standard of people’s driving out their is horrendous at the moment. Perhaps because there’s less sensible drivers on the road. It is amazing though how many people are in a rush to get no where.
2-abreast, and go to single-file on a single-lane road if there's space to pass.
If they can't get past 2 cyclists, they can't safely get past 1 cyclist either.
Go and watch some flat earth videos on YT if you need convincing that a sizeable proportion of the UK population are ignorant nutters.
I get nervous if someone i know gets within say 60cm
If you get nervous like that I would suggest you shouldn't really be riding with other people.
I’m a cyclist too you know! But I have to admit to getting realy pissed off with large groups of road riders here in the dales. Most carriageways here are pretty narrow and I often get stuck behind a group who seem to be on some kind of training ride they will often be two or three abreast and spread along quite a length of road making it really difficult to pass safely. I can often be stuck at twenty or less mph behind them for a mile or more before I can pass safely. There doesn’t seem to be any consideration for the fact that many people on the roads during the week are actually working and have to get somewhere. As a postie I am under genuine pressure to get around at a decent speed which can be difficult enough without hold ups.
If they were in a single line 2 or 3 times as long would they be easier to pass?
Whenever anyone uses “I’m a/was a [whatever you happen to be doing]” to support their argument, it’s always garbage.
Most carriageways here are pretty narrow and I often get stuck behind a group who seem to be on some kind of training ride they will often be two or three abreast
If the roads are narrow they won't be 3 abreast, its not really possible ( well it is but not on a normal ride unless you want to bump elbows like that cycling God up the thread)
I can often be stuck at twenty or less mph behind them for a mile or more
OMG that sounds awful how do you cope!!
How mamy mm’s apart are those riders in the Surrey police pictogram?
No covid spacing
No allowance for pot holed roads
No allowance for sidewinds
No allowance for dogs/cats/ pedestrian stepping put
Also holding a tight line on an open public highway isnt easy
I get nervous if someone i know gets within say 60cm
The article predates Covid.
Riders at the front call out potholes and other hazards and the group reacts appropriately.
Sidewinds you space out wider
Dogs/cats etc - see potholes and other hazards
It isn't easy and takes practice.
If you don't like it - and there are times when I don't fancy it - then don't do it.
There are riders I don't want within 60cm of me too!
As a postie I am under genuine pressure to get around at a decent speed which can be difficult enough without hold ups.
I get you have pressures, but if you're a postie in the Dale's, how do you cope with tractors, horses, sheep being moved on the lanes? Let alone all those impromptu emergencies- I've seen that Postman Pat documentary!
@boombang That car wouldn't have been overtaking me on the approach to a central island because I would be in the middle of the lane to prevent it.
Ok on alot of roads each lane is 3mtr wide but car drivers dislike fully crossing the the white lines, and wont drive in the gutter of the opposing carriageway
You say that like it's reasonable 😂
Single out just to shut the ****ers up, then both take primary if you feel it's necessary
The ****s who get offended at two abreast and defensive riding are the same ****s who more than likely couldn’t tell you one thing from the Highway Code other than red lights mean you should think about speeding up, the minimum speed limit on a motorway is 70 and you can’t park on double yellows unless you have something important to do. S’about time people got retested every 10 years and after an infraction and it’d be a riiiight money spinner.
Anyone who is doubting this one bit.... how come you know better than the Police?
car drivers dislike fully crossing the the white lines
People seem to generally manage it just fine when passing cars, tractors, lorries, horses, basically anything except someone on a bike.
Next bullshit excuse?
Came up in my car the other day behind a pair of cyclists on an A road. Ahead were some bends so not a safe overtaking spot. They moved to single file as I eased up behind. Seems ridiculous. Yet in their shoes I have a habit of doing the same thing, just because I know 2 abreast annoys the kind of people in 2 tonne boxes I don't want to annoy when I'm the squishy thing. The roads round here are either that or narrow single lane, where the only available safe overtake is the cyclist stopping. Oh the irony that hardly ever does the move to single file facilitate a safe overtake that wasn't already available.
On what width of road is this not the case? Some massively wide but still single carriageway A road?
2 abreast or single file has never bothered me, its the big groups that spread out to create one big train that grinds my gears!
It means even if your in a position to overtake safely, you have to do it for much longer than necessary to clear the whole group which actively increases the risk for both as most people seem to get caught out by how long it takes to do an overtake on a big group.
In these situations, these big groups are actually better spreading out more leaving gaps for vehicles to overtake parts of the group safely.
The fact that this is even a debate on a cycling forum shows the ignorance of some and the general entitled attitude of “gerouttamyway” of many drivers. No surprises we have an obesity problem in this country having terrorised generations of the population to the fact that walking and cycling are dangerous pursuits only undertaken by the disadvantaged and deranged.
In these situations, these big groups are actually better spreading out more leaving gaps for vehicles to overtake parts of the group safely.
What you mean is;
In these situations, these big groups should just get out of my way as that will make it safer because otherwise I'll do something stupid.
I/we tend not to do 2 abreast, too many people seem to go for dodgy passes.
No point being right if you’re turned to jam.
It’s perfectly legal.
It may not always be sensible.
This.
What you mean is;
In these situations, these big groups should just get out of my way as that will make it safer because otherwise I’ll do something stupid.
What he means is:
Mutual respect and politely sharing the road would make everyone's lives that little bit less stressful. Cyclists don't need to worry about impatient drivers and drivers have the opportunity to safely make their way past. Both groups obey Rule #1 and everyone's day is that little bit better. Where's the problem?
@boombang That car wouldn’t have been overtaking me on the approach to a central island because I would be in the middle of the lane to prevent it.
Doesn’t stop the w*****s around here. I did exactly what you mentioned and a van driver still tried to get past - he started to dive in then realised he wasn’t going to make it past me without hitting the island, so swerved the other way and went round the island on entirely the wrong side of the road. Just got back the right side without hitting a car coming the other way. All because he couldn’t wait another 5-10 seconds or more to clear the island and the car coming the other way. It’s mind blowing how bad some of the driving is round here at the moment.
Watching the wobbly wheelers these days wandering about metres apart makes me sad…
We all have to start somewhere.
Lots of the same arguments going around, but reality is that it's always situational, was it good etiquette or not for that particular time, as with everywhere, i see a lot of road riding nowadays, it's gained popularity and most are just getting on with it, but you do get the odd one or two who defend their position when it would be better to single out, pull in, etc, etc to allow the faster vehicles to pass without having to be too aggressive.
It's the same with a lot of driver's, they will see a roadie(s) in the distance and the panic sets in, some know how to deal with this, some don't, the ones who are edging constantly are the ones who aren't focused on solid lines at tight bends, and the actual speed of the vehicles coming on the other side, ending up with horrific overtakes.
From my experience i just worry about that driver behind me, as i can do nothing about it as they are unseen to me, if i get nervous enough with the amount of time they are behind me i jump over and let them pass, had way too many experiences of that first driver being cautious and finally overtaking, then having the nutters that were stuck behind them taking their anger out on me with close passes, having been hit by a wing mirror (bar strike) from a car that was doing 60-70 i can vouch that it sounds like a shotgun going off next to you!
That’s one of the numerous issues with large groups: they don’t have the option of pulling over to let anyone pass. Once you decide to ride in an even remotely tight group you’ve basically signed up to that.
As an old roadie I am constantly amazed by how shit a large number of road cyclists are at actually riding along.
When I'm ride-leading on multi-day events, most of the first 2 days is taken up with trying to instil some discipline in riders.
I've seen 2-abreast as "left hand rider in the gutter, right hand rider on the centre markings". Half wheeling is very common as is trying to use a massive gear and constantly surging up the arse of the rider in front.
It never gets taught anymore. Riders don't want skills sessions they want to do training to power and Zwift. As a result, an awful lot of riders are absolutely dreadful at a simple 2-abreast club ride.
Equally though, driving with care and courtesy never got taught, it was always about "making progress" so it's not surprising that most drivers aren't capable of processing a 2-abreast group.
Incidentally does anyone know if there is a legal limit on the length/ number of a peloton on an open road? My lbs organizes a group ride from April through to October mid week and sometimes in the height of summer there are over 60 riders which as you can imagine makes quite a long train on the road and each time I’ve been on the ride there has been at least one situation of driver conflict, usually somebody overtaking and then realizing they aren’t going to make it and pulling into the middle of the group.
I have ridden a lot in Spain over the past 20 years. Appearing to hold up vehicles doesn't concern Spanish cyclists and clubs at all.I've seen them spread out across the road and force oncoming vehicles to stop. My local Spanish club actually have a motorcyclist out front with a siren.The only people I have heard moaning about their riding are the British ex pats !
Both groups obey Rule #1 and everyone’s day is that little bit better. Where’s the problem?
The problem is disagreement and/or ignorance about whether X or Y behaviours contravene Rule #1 and/or the Highway Code.
‘It wasn’t ME being the dick, HE was in the Middle Of The Road™!’
Etc...
The other problem is that people will be dicks regardless.
Incidentally does anyone know if there is a legal limit on the length/ number of a peloton on an open road
Not that I'm aware of, more than 12 or so and I get twitchy.
over 60 riders
With that many there would be a fair spread of ability, sensible move would be to split into maybe 3 groups and set off a few minutes apart...fast off first, then medium and slow last?
Incidentally does anyone know if there is a legal limit on the length/ number of a peloton on an open road? My lbs organizes a group ride from April through to October mid week and sometimes in the height of summer there are over 60 riders which as you can imagine makes quite a long train on the road and each time I’ve been on the ride there has been at least one situation of driver conflict, usually somebody overtaking and then realizing they aren’t going to make it and pulling into the middle of the group.
Not aware of a legal limit, but surely the practicalities of riding with a random mix of people of varying skills, experience and fitness make this basically unmanageable. Either cap the numbers or split into several smaller groups.
Not that I’m aware of, more than 12 or so and I get twitchy.
Our club tend to split groups into no more than 16 based on speed - I'd say that is too big but depends on how many ride captains there are to share the leading. I limit groups to 12 on my rides
With group rides limited to 6 when they return, it's a perfect time for clubs to drill some group riding skills into members.
more than 12 or so and I get twitchy
It’s more like three or four for me 😳
Every driver who has ever had a go at me has always said “I’m a cyclist too”
I just reply with "you should stick to cycling then as you are crap at driving"
As for taking up room, I only ride solo but in places where I feel it is not safe to overtake I will take up as much room as two cyclists but where it is safe to overtake I will take up room of one cyclist by positioning myself on the road accordingly. I wouldn't hold up traffic by staying two abreast just for the sake of it it moving to single file made it easier for all involved.
There is some gold here this is my favorite
On most roads it the becomes difficult for the overtaking car to give the outer rider 1.5m of space as you have taken up 4mtr of roadspace. If you include 1.12 of passing space
If it makes it difficult maybe it's not the right time to pass simple.
I always ride a doors width from the curb or the "primary position" and when an island approaches get in the middle to block cars from passing me. I couldn't care less if that means your late to drop timmy off at football, I just don't want to die.
slowoldman
Full MemberYes the Surrey Road interpretation above sums up good practice.
It does sum up good practice but I think in reality 3 does take a bit longer than 2, therefore the driver does need a bigger gap.
Personally I think that should be the rule anyway though, when overtaking cyclists you always go fully into the other lane.
Whenever anyone uses “I’m a/was a [whatever you happen to be doing]” to support their argument, it’s always garbage.
If that was aimed at me then I only opened with that comment as a weak attempt at humour based on what had been said before 🙂
If the roads are narrow they won’t be 3 abreast, its not really possible ( well it is but not on a normal ride unless you want to bump elbows like that cycling God up the thread)
I've seen them ride four abreast as well but two or three is more common. Is that safe riding on narrow roads?
OMG that sounds awful how do you cope!!
Thank you for your concern 😉 but it actually is a problem. RM likes to employ bullying managers(not the cyclists fault I know) who try to pile more work onto us in impossible to meet time scales and then refuse to pay overtime when we go over unless agreed at the start of the day. As a result, many posties are feeling some degree of stress while out on the rounds.
I get you have pressures, but if you’re a postie in the Dale’s, how do you cope with tractors, horses, sheep being moved on the lanes? Let alone all those impromptu emergencies-
Tractors and horses are usually easy to pass without a long delay and both will usually wave you past when safe to do so. Sheep being moved and emergencies don't actually happen all that often(at least not to me) but these things can't be helped.
I think what really gets to me is that there seems to be no consideration for other road users from these particular groups. They seem to completely ignore the fact that you are there trying to do a job and just seem intent on doing what they are doing and to hell with anyone else on the road.
Now, I don't advocate dangerous driving at all and try not to practice it but the fact remains that there are people out there who will resort to dangerous overtaking when faced with these situations. And big groups of riders should take some responsibility for the safety of all road users and if riding in large numbers they should create some space for people to safely pass. As I said earlier, tractor drivers and horse riders will usually show you that sort of consideration. Even the slow driving tourists will often pull over to let you pass(after a bit of aggresive tailgaiting and light flashing 🙂 ).
Anyway, I'm just a MTBer so naturaly I hate all roadies 🙂 Why is it, I always smile and say Hi to any other cyclists I meet but I rarely get a response from serious looking roadies?
Have a nice day!
Simple answer to that is, deliver whatever you can until its time to get back to the yard and whatever doesn't get delivered will still be there for tomorrow.
Simple answer to that is, deliver whatever you can until its time to get back to the yard and whatever doesn’t get delivered will still be there for tomorrow.
I wish it was, and it should be as simple as that. But, suffice to say. It isn't.
With that many there would be a fair spread of ability, sensible move would be to split into maybe 3 groups and set off a few minutes apart…fast off first, then medium and slow last?
The policy of the ride is it's all inclusive, which I think is the main reason for its popularity, the ride is at a steady 28kmh and no one is dropped (unlike some chain gang organized rides round here ...one in particular left two riders lying in the road after a crash last year).
My favourite 2 abreast moment came on a group ride a couple of years back, probably about a dozen of us side by side on a stretch with plenty of blind corners and a car behind constantly on the horn.
Proceeds to pull level, wind down the window and drive alongside telling us how dangerous we're being. Kid in the back seat by the way.
Anyway, I’m just a MTBer so naturaly I hate all roadies 🙂 Why is it, I always smile and say Hi to any other cyclists I meet but I rarely get a response from serious looking roadies?
Probably because you just overtook them on a blind bend because the post might be late?
Do you wave at other van drivers and expect them to wave back, too? 🙂
Probably because you just overtook them on a blind bend because the post might be late?
If you read my post properly you would know that is something I wouldn't do. I wouldn't be so frustrated by hold ups if I was happy to make dangerous driving moves.
How is it easier to pass a tractor than a group of cyclists?
As for getting waved past, I'll make my own decisions, if Im approaching a blind bend I don't care what you think the road is like ahead.
Proceeds to pull level, wind down the window and drive alongside telling us how dangerous we’re being. Kid in the back seat by the way.
One thing that continues to amazes me about some drivers is their lack of the rules of the road. The amount of time I have been told im "not allowed" to ride in the middle of a lane is unreal. I wish it was a generational thing but it seems this myth is still perpetuated
Do you wave at other van drivers and expect them to wave back, too? 🙂
Of course I do! I'm a very friendly person 🙂
If that was aimed at me then I only opened with that comment as a weak attempt at humour based on what had been said before 🙂
No, it was off the OPs comment that the driver "was a cyclist too".
Incidentally does anyone know if there is a legal limit on the length/ number of a peloton on an open road?
British Cycling and LVRC limit bunch sizes to 60 for road races - but you can multiple bunches for different categories and it gets interesting if one catches the other - usually stopping one group for a couple of minutes. Sportives don’t face the same restrictions as they’re not races, but it doesn’t stop wannabee sportivists pretending to ride like they are.
To get a race license these days in some regions you need to have participated in a course to give you the basic skills for bunch riding - something you learned in a club as a beginner about how to ride in pairs, through and off etc. These days, it’s Zwift and Strava and no real experience of riding in a bunch. I stopped riding with people I don’t know because often some were a danger to themselves and others, half-wheeling, dropping back when standing up, not looking around or signalling before moving.
The other difference is the volume of traffic and general intolerance / lack of awareness of drivers. It’s been refreshing since moving to the highlands from the south east - the only close passes I’ve had are usually from cars with English plates, even though they have an empty road in front of them.
As for getting waved past, I’ll make my own decisions, if Im approaching a blind bend I don’t care what you think the road is like ahead.
Quite. I had an impolite exchange once with someone who’d been waving me through on a series of blind bends and then, when he eventually pulled into a gravelled area alongside the road, shouted at me to tell me I was a useless driver—despite there having been one or two vehicles which did appear around those bends he was waving me through 🤦🏻♂️
I’ve seen them ride four abreast as well but two or three is more common. Is that safe riding on narrow roads?
Bollocks you have, 4 abreast on a narrow road, my arse. Maybe you are just too stupid to realise that the riders off set their position a little for safety.
anagallis_arvensis
Full MemberBollocks you have
Well spotted there Yoda!
I'm reluctant to go on club runs with my club because the standard of group riding and general courtesy to other road users is absolutely abysmal. I say that as someone who routinely takes primary, claims my space and generally keeps myself safe so I'm not afraid of holding up drivers where necessary. I actually stopped a club run once, did a lot of swearing at some riders and flounced because I was at the back and could see what an absolute bunch of **** they were being.
... dropping back when standing up,
My god, that's annoying too. Like a brief stall of the bike, just long enough for you to nearly smack into a back wheel.
Now, I don’t advocate dangerous driving at all and try not to practice it but the fact remains that there are people out there who will resort to dangerous overtaking when faced with these situations.
"Try" would suggest that you are not always successful.