[Closed] Rider down :o(

Just saw this on Twitter;
[i]
Shocked to see the dead body of a cyclist under a truck on fleet Street. When will this city offer better protection for cyclists?[/i]

🙁

Cyclist vs truck is never normally a good outcome...

Fatality 🙁

As usual with these tragic London stories, you can say 'left turning truck' before even reading it.

And cold as it sounds, this is not about 'protection'. Cyclists need to either know or be educated to NEVER go up the left of an HGV at a junction. These deaths are so needless and easily avoided, which makes it doubly sad. 🙁

its the classic london box junction cyclist deathtrap

cycle lanes take you up the inside,
cars/HGVS stopped, blocking the ASLs
everyone running amber trying to get through as the traffic has barely budged while on green,

Rockplough, as much as what you've suggested happens it's certainly not unheard of for a lorry driver to come up from behind a cyclist and still mow them down.

So lets at least hold of blaming the victim until the facts have come out please, a little respect.

[i]Cyclists need to either know or be educated to NEVER go up the left of an HGV at a junction[/i]

oh FFS

you have no idea if the rider was trying to filter down the side of the truck, in front but in a blind spot or the truck overtook them and then turned left before the maneuver was complete.

someone's dead and you're already blaming them. Jesus.

sorry to rant but the poor sod's been dead less than an hour.

That junction is a particularly crap junction

Whilst cycling yesterday on a blue cycle route was hooted and "waved" at by passing well known parcel company lorry, as I passed him 1/2 mile up the road. He had stopped to drop of delivery, I commented that still be in town before you to have a hail of abuse thrown back at me.
Perhaps some sort of psychological test should be introduced for commercial drivers, never understood this as they are being paid for their time!

As I've said before - London bike riders - as opposed to seasoned cyclists are like lemmings - I see it most days

but back to the point - sorry to hear about another death of any sort on the roads

always seems to be some sort of skip lorry.

[img] [/img]

So very sad for the cyclists family and freinds, and also for the driver involved.

Very sad news,rule number one stay behind, video shows the blind spot 🙁

[quote=plumber]As I've said before - London bike riders - as opposed to seasoned cyclists are like lemmings - I see it most days

but back to the point - sorry to hear about another death of any sort on the roads

Sadly this is so true.

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed who intentionally put themselves in that position, despite being warned again and again. You would have thought ONE fatality on a bike in London would be enough to shock other cyclists, but no...

You can take a horse to the water....

Sad news indeed

I've seen quite a few 'new' folk on my commute this week, all going filtering up the queue of traffic on the left at lights with no clue about when the lights will change. They just think 'it's a cycle path, that's where I should be'.

if youre not a seasoned cyclist how can you have been warned again and again

the road layouts are the problem especially if you are a new cyclist, you'll naturally follow the cycle lanes

They just think 'it's a cycle path, that's where I should be'.

Or "I've got a video camera recording - and it's my right of way by law, that 40 tonne truck can wait."

this is not just a London thing I am afraid.
the things I see cyclists do really scares me sometimes.
I assume they are new to commuting, and hopefully they will learn with a few near misses.

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed...

Yeah, that's pretty cold. Nice.

I would have thought that ONE fatality on a bike in London would be enough to shock drivers and haulage operators, but no...

Let's stop with the victim blaming. RIP. One more rider down, another one too many.

Sad news - ridiculous bike lane marking by the looks of it. RIP

[IMG] [/IMG]

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed who intentionally put themselves in that position, despite being warned again and again.

I've said it time and time again, most of the time people do not [b]intentionally [/b]put themselves in danger, it is normally [b]ignorance of the danger[/b], and you may be reminded time and time again in the cycling press and on sites like this but Mr/Miss average commuter has probably not seen those warnings or understood the severity of the danger.

Also as others have said above, we do not know what happened here so please refrain from victim blaming, and even IF this particular cyclist went up the inside of the lorry then death is hardly a fair punishment now is it? Show a little respect, I bet you'd have a lot more sympathy if it was someone you knew.

RIP rider 🙁

[quote=mintimperial]Yeah, that's pretty cold. Nice.

Equally, I have little sympathy for drivers who wrap their cars around a tree as a result of driving recklessly.

Their [i]family and friends[/i] I do feel for, but not them.

Think of the lorry driver who accidentally killed someone this morning..

've said it time and time again, most of the time people do not intentionally put themselves in danger, it is normally ignorance of the danger, and you may be reminded time and time again in the cycling press and on sites like this but Mr/Miss average commuter has probably not seen those warnings or understood the severity of the danger.

Thanks

(That's what I meant - ignorance, as opposed to intentional)

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed who intentionally put themselves in that position

Yeah, that does sound quite cold. I wonder if you have any more sympathy for a family who'd loved one isn't coming home today?

EDIT: You've answered that one I see, as I was writing. I still think you're being a dick, though, especially since you don't have any more knowledge of the facts of this accident than any of us.

edlong - read above ^^

(probably missed it while we both typed at the same time).

It's disappointing that some think you deserve die to as a result of a mistake 🙁
It's tough being perfect......

You

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed who intentionally put themselves in that position, despite being warned again and again.

Me

I've said it time and time again, most of the time people do not intentionally put themselves in danger, it is normally ignorance of the danger, and you may be reminded time and time again in the cycling press and on sites like this but Mr/Miss average commuter has probably not seen those warnings or understood the severity of the danger.

You

(That's what I meant - ignorance, as opposed to intentional)

Would make your original quote:

As cold as it may sound, I have little sympathy for riders who get killed who [b]ignorantly [/b]put themselves in that position

Which is even colder!
Surely you should have sympathy if it's ignorance? (lack of information or understanding)

He didn't say they deserved to die, he said he had little sympathy which isn't the same thing. Stop being sensationalist.

Do you blame the lemming or the cliff?

Harsh I know but people are putting themselves at unnecessary risk.

[i]Harsh I know but people are putting themselves at unnecessary risk. [/i]

That's true, although perhaps not in this case. But if you're new to cycling and the cycle path runs along the edge of the road then that's where you'll ride. If you're an experienced confident bike commuter you know to take your lane, filter where you know its safe or sit in the queue.

Given that we don't know what happened it is off to speculate that this was the cyclist's fault.

For all we know the cyclist could have arrived at the junction well in advance of the lorry then been hit as a result of the drivers inattention.

They just think 'it's a cycle path, that's where I should be'.

That is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. No reasonable person would expect someone in authority to deliberately design a cycle path so that it placed anyone using it in extreme danger.

Experienced urban cyclists know the infrastructure is crap and dangerous, and actively avoid it or adopt coping strategies, novices don't.

Good infrastructure means that inevitable mistakes don't kill people

We need corporate manslaughter charges against the people who design this crap

Wow there's some dimwitted dickery going on in this thread. I wonder if the people blaming the cyclists for being on the left are the same who think cyclists adopting the primary position are, to quote a certain top gear presenting idiot, "middle of the road point-makers"?

No one deserves to die for riding a bike, even if they deliberately or ignorantly did something which maybe they shouldn't have.

Just to address a couple of responses to my initial post, saying that I was blaming the cyclist and/or jumping to conclusions.

The OP said left turning lorry. Even if it had not, based on the history of cyclists dying under heavy vehicles in London I would have bet my house on it being so, and indeed it proved to be so.

In terms of blaming the cyclist, I don't think I said anywhere that it was their fault - technically it is clearly not. Merely that any cyclists who share roads with long heavy vehicles should have knowledge of the attendant dangers with regard to left turns. Being on the left of an HGV is - in my view - quite possibly the most dangerous place to be when cycling on the road, whether at a junction or not. This is not intrinsic, and comes either from bitter experience or from education. Preferably the latter.

And as for asking for 'a little respect'. It's out of respect that I say anything at all. This scenario is a primary issue for urban cycling, and it is with a weary sadness I read these stories time and time again, compounded by the victims generally being less experienced cyclists.

I cant seem to find anywhere in this thread, where anyone has said that anyone deserves to die.

can i just add 3 points

MIRROR
SIGNAL
MANEUVER

the first of these points would have seen us not having to post this thread.

twitter says the bike was under the front wheels of the lorry.

Cyclist could have been just in front of the truck.

Not sure what the point of your post is dazh, its neither constructive or sympathetic.

twitter says the bike was under the front wheels of the lorry.

Cyclist could have been just in front of the truck.

Don't be silly, it's already been decided (by some on here) that the cyclist went up the inside of the lorry.

can't believe how many people have decided it was the cyclists fault.

If and it's a big IF the cyclist went up the inside of the truck the road planners and designers need to shoulder some of the responsibility, cycle lanes always on the left, ASLs almost a perfect fit for the blind spot on lorries. The message about lorry blind spots is getting about a bit more, bumper stickers the occasional internet ad, posts on social media etc, still not enough in it's own right and certainly not enough to counter the established "cyclists belong in the gutter" line that most people believe (including a hell of a lot of motorists)

People are ignorant of the extent of lorry blind spots.
Lots if cycle infrastructure put you in lorry blind spots.

Out of respect to the deceased I'm out of this thread. There's a few out to pick a fight and I'm not rising to it.

Twitter again: [i]Appears that cyclist killed earlier on Farringdon Road by a massive construction vehicle may have been a very experienced rider. RIP[/i]

I think people need to wind their necks in with the whole blame/should of/would of stuff on this thread until the whole story is known.

It may save red faces later on.

[edit] [i]Man killed this morning at Ludgate Circus by high cab tipper lorry *rumoured* to be a working bicycle courier.[/i]

Sad news indeed 🙁 . Stay safe all you London commuters, and the rest of you too.

RIP dude.

[If the 'rumour' is true]

Bicycle courier? Changes things a bit.

So.... perhaps in a rush to get from A to B?

Consider themselves "experienced" urban cyclists, so more willing to take higher risks?

Maybe "ignorance" of the dangers of urban cycling gets thrown out the window, and replaced with "intentional" placement in dangerous situations (after they do a quick risk assessment of the options presented to them)

(From my experience of daily commuting by bike through London for 4 years, couriers are the worst offenders by a looooong shot. Squeezing in between traffic, jumping red lights, wrong was up 'one-way' streets, the list is endless - all to get from A-B quicker.)

=====

Terrible news but sadly, not surprising.

(I'm surprised there aren't [i]more[/i] cycle deaths to be honest)

Flame suit engaged..

If the 'rumour' is true]

Bicycle courier? Changes things a bit.

So.... perhaps in a rush to get from A to B?

Consider themselves "experienced" urban cyclists, so more willing to take higher risks?

Maybe "ignorance" of the dangers of urban cycling gets thrown out the window, and replaced with "intentional" placement in dangerous situations (after they do a quick risk assessment of the options presented to them)

(From my experience of daily commuting by bike through London for 4 years, couriers are the worst offenders by a looooong shot. Squeezing in between traffic, jumping red lights, wrong was up 'one-way' streets, the list is endless - all to get from A-B quicker.)

=====

Terrible news but sadly, not surprising.

(I'm surprised there aren't more cycle deaths to be honest)

Flame suit engaged..

Rumour has it the unfortunate courier was called Andy, we have had calls from a couple of courier companies asking if Andy is ok. Both of our pushbikers called Andy are accounted for.

Condolences to friends and family.

No reasonable person would expect someone in authority to deliberately design a cycle path so that it placed anyone using it in extreme danger.
We need corporate manslaughter charges against the people who design this crap

Bloody hell, tipper lorry again. 🙁 Either the infrastructure needs a change or they need to redesign these vehicles.

RIP rider.

Infrastructure has to be made better. Ludgate circus is a nightmare junction.

Having seen the video of the lorry blind spot and with governments trying to promote cycling surely there should be design changes to the lorry cab, window sill height brought in by legislation

smartay - Member

Having seen the video of the lorry blind spot and with governments trying to promote cycling surely there should be design changes to the lorry cab, window sill height brought in by legislation

They've done that for busses/lorries, but also say tippers are a special case because they need offroad site access and large wheel clearance. Therefore nothing to stop people getting caught and dragged under.

can i just add 3 points

MIRROR
SIGNAL
MANEUVER

the first of these points would have seen us not having to post this thread.

Watch the video about blind spots and how many cyclists can hide in the blind spot of a lorry. Even if the driver did use his mirror it wouldn't help.

RIP to the poor fella.

Xiphon, just stop it, we do not know the facts so stop the speculation. Your arguments about rushing form A to B could equally be applied to tipper lorries being paid by the load, likewise your anecdotal evidence of couriers being the 'worst offenders' as you put it is not reflected in the statistics of them being more likely to be killed, so please just stop it, it's throwing unnecessary accusations and insinuations around and fanning the flames when we should be focusing on other things.

No matter what the circumstances someone has lost a brother/son/husband/boyfriend/friend/father today and we should remember that.

Whatever their experience/inexperience or personal approach to risk, a simple error like being in slightly the wrong place at the wrong time in a major metropolitan city (truck or cyclist) should not result in a [b]death[/b]. The Infrastructure and Society perpetuates this problem.

Whatever their experience/inexperience or personal approach to risk, a simple error like being in slightly the wrong place at the wrong time in a major metropolitan city (truck or cyclist) should not result in a death. The Infrastructure and Society perpetuates this problem.

That was the point I was trying to make but you did it much better. We all make mistakes either through impatience, ignorance, misjudgement or stupidity, but you don't expect or deserve to die from them.

Very sad to see another death.

Occurs to me that there is a whiff of hypocrisy in some of the comments on here.

Yes, it probably is too early to be blaming the cyclist as we do not know the facts of this accident.

But by the same measure, it is also too early to be blaming the HGV driver and/or designer, or the guy that planned the road layout. We don't know the facts of this particular accident.

We had enough knee jerk nonsense from the political class after last years horrendous run of fatalities, and the full facts and inquests on those have still not been published.

And while I agree with dazh that no one deserves to die in an accident due to making a mistake, the harsh fact is that a lot of people do. And a lit of people on here like to laugh about some of them when they make the Darwin awards