[Closed] Ridable on a hardtail

It makes people feel better about themselves.

It's not rideable on a hardtail = I couldn't ride it on a hardtail.

Most of the suspension is done by the body so as with so many other things it's ultimately down to the rider. Possibly excluding huge drops to flat?

[img] [/img]Even the massive air....

My HT was/is better in the real tight and twisty stuff love riding it.

Les Gets 98% brake bumps DH tracks ... did try it for 10 minutes once, decided it was about as fun as a very very very unfun thing.

[quote=GeForce Junky ]Les Gets 98% brake bumps DH tracks ... did try it for 10 minutes once, decided it was about as fun as a very very very unfun thing.

I rode Les Gets on a hardtail too, have to admit that it was a lot more fun on a big bike, the amounts of pain in forearms after each run wasn't hugely pleasant!

^^^^

Ironically it's only trails ruined by full sus bikes that are unrideable !

^ Rideable and fun to ride are different things.

it's braking* that causes braking bumps, not FS bikes.

anyway,

bol - Member

^ Rideable and fun to ride are different things.

this.

(*or rather, it's bad track design that causes braking bumps - some people just want to pootle down a track, if they need to use their brakes a lot to achieve this then the track has been badly designed)

I rode Les Gets on a hardtail too, have to admit that it was a lot more fun on a big bike, the amounts of pain in forearms after each run wasn't hugely pleasant!

Why would a full suss eliminate arm pump?

I'm about to change from a blue pig to a orange 5, I hope I don't live to regret it !!

ahwiles - Member
it's braking that causes braking bumps, not FS bikes.

Bit of both actually, the rear suspension does have a bit to do with it
(must go and dig out facts for this one.....)

Has the formation of braking bumps been studied then?
I mean its obvious its caused by bicycles and there is a correlation with braking area, but other than that what do we actually know?

The last I heard/read was that under braking the rear suspension will drag/kick and start to cause the lumps, once they start they will ge worse never better.

Science about braking bumps.... 🙄

There's nobody getting more air than dirt jumpers and they invariably ride hard tails.

Whistler, defo not do-able on a hardtail

(must go and dig out facts for this one.....)

Or maybe don't bother

I find no difference at all in my speed over the ground/what I can ride, if im riding my full suss over my hardtail. The only difference is with my full suss, if its a longer ride, I come back feeling a little less all over achey.

Whistler, defo not do-able on a hardtail

That video ends the thread I reckon 😀

Edit - one of the threads I most enjoyed on here was (I assume a youngster) asking if snowdon was ridable on a 120 full suss! Unbelievable. Yoof these days eh.

toys19 - Member

Has the formation of braking bumps been studied then?
I mean its obvious its caused by bicycles and there is a correlation with braking area, but other than that what do we actually know?

there's quite a few phd's / papers written on the subject.

[url= http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090707131834.htm ]science for the win![/url]

most the geeks looking at it call the effect 'washboarding' - it affacts gravel roads all over the world (lots of roads affected in NZ), and everyone hates it. i couldn't find any papers focusing on mountain bikes.

a quick read suggests it's multi-factoral, and mathematically speaking, not unlike the mechanics of a stone skipping on water.

for a given setup, there is a threshold speed, above which bumps appear, below which they don't - it's not a gradual thing.

(ie, if the threshold speed is 20kph, travelling at 19kph won't make any bumps at all)

i would hypothesise that a bike braking would have a lower threshold speed than a bike not-braking.

(simply because the energy transferred into the ground would be higher if the brakes are on, and it takes energy to move the soil into the waves, but, like i say, this is just my hypothesis)

i ****ing love science.

Science about braking bumps....

Whats your problem with it?

Yay for awhiles! This is what we wanted to see!

It does say that it happens with or without suspenders, so thats good to know.

snowdon ranger is ace on a hardtail - especially the middle bit

Does happen without suspension, but I would put money down that suspension would increase it, especially the growth once slight bumps start.

I dispute the bad track design argument, it could be a factor, but I would argue riders share more of the blame, panic braking especially. But when you get hundreds of riders an hour, then to some extend on certain types of course (which Les Gets is a good example) its inevitable. Very few braking bumps in Les Lindarets [sp?]

I find no difference at all in my speed over the ground/what I can ride, if im riding my full suss over my hardtail.

In certain terrain I'm faster on the full sus, sometimes the HT. The rougher/bigger it is the better the Full Sus is. Riding the HT makes me faster on the full sus though

I got so bored of my Enduro. Had to go back to a hardtail.

I absolutely love my HT. Everything feels more direct. I ride plenty of DH tracks (Aston hill, Gawton, UKBP, etc). Yes i'm slower and yes I feel like i've been run over by the end of the day but I find it so much more fun. I have yet to find something I can't ride on my HT. If anything, it's easier to hang over the back of a HT. A long fork on the front and some good use of my arms, legs and it's all good.

[i]I find no difference at all in my speed over the ground/what I can ride, if im riding my full suss over my hardtail.[/i]

Yeah, you're just slow everywhere Scott 😀

Good point well made, 😉 im hoping to get out for a quick hour 5ish, if ya up for it.

I find no difference at all in my speed over the ground/what I can ride, if im riding my full suss over my hardtail

Braking bumps - same as the washboard surfaces you get on dirt roads?

[img] [/img]

I thought it must be suspension, as you never used to see them much. Article below suggests that they're only going to form on surfaces with unconsolidated material of fairly uniform size - i.e. trail surfacing.
Why only where people brake - braking probably starts them forming, but once they start, it's self perpetuating.
Boring Eh?
[url= http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/nicolas.taberlet/washboard/ ]The science[/url]

Scott - might do, not sure yet

mikewsmith - Member
The last I heard/read was that under braking the rear suspension will drag/kick and start to cause the lumps, once they start they will ge worse never better.

There you have it - braking bumps are caused by the Orange Five

What can be done on a hardtail if you're nuts:

Here's some light reading, or skip to the video of the guy riding the lime green hardtail:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/The-Argument-For-Short-Travel-Bikes-Opinion-2012.html

If you can comfortably ride it in a FS you can probably ride on HT, FS just gives you a bigger margin for error, can think of several local trail sections that I definitely wanted FS to ride at first but once I got it dialled subsequently ride it on HT. that's why I normally ride HT on local trails but nearly always FS away.

Don't ride trail centres much but I do like the stuff at llandegla where you rarely have to brake, all that [i]flow[/i] bollocks is good, just pumping the trail for speed and using berms to maintain, fun!

A 'washboarding' type effect happens on railwaylines as well, as a matter of interest.

Hardtails rock 🙂

Braking bumps are shit on any bike, not just a HT.

Objectively, full sussers are faster (everything else considered) as long as the rear suss is tuned correctly, ie making the rear wheel stay on the ground, rather than for comfort. About the only place I think a full suss will really leave a HT is a pedally rough section, where the rear of a HT just bounces all over the place.

Fitness of the rider plays a massive part though.

Here's some light reading, or skip to the video of the guy riding the lime green hardtail:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/The-Argument-For-Short-Travel-Bikes-Opinion-2012.html

good article that and one that i agree with.

was also quite funny reading the PB readers responses trying to justify their big bikes and explain how without their big bikes they wouldn't have the confidence to ride the drops, berms and jumps that (they believe?) they do.

edit: amongst the people i ride with i'm one of the quickest (where's my trumpet?). i'm also only one of two out of 10 that rides a hardtail. the other hardtail rider says he rides slow because he is on a hardtail, yet he still isn't the slowest. the guy with a 6" Trek is.

I only ride HT because thats all i need. I have over the years been to most places that are thought of as good riding destinations in this country , not once have i needed or thought i needed FS. Majority of people out on the trails are over biked , following the pack sort of. As for comfort, this is moutain biking it's not meant to be comfortable.

double post.

Trying to justify anything to do with your mtb choices is pointless. I ride a big bike because I like it. I'm slow and crap.

@alpin the confidence thing may be true for some, but not for me. I'm as much a mincer going downhill on a hardtail than my full sus, uphill, give me the hardtail every time.

Re full sus and hardtail. With the guys I ride with I'm usually fastest uphill, but slowest down. The fat bastard we wait for after the climbs canes all of us on the way down, but I think he would regardless of what he rides.

About the only place I think a full suss will really leave a HT is a pedally rough section, where the rear of a HT just bounces all over the place.

That's definitely true, I remmeber racing XC at Fort William on my Epic and being able to stay seated and just smash it through one flat but rubbly section. Every time through there I'd put 15 seconds into the guy just behind (he was on HT) which he'd then have to make up - eventually the extra work got to him and he blew. 🙂

Doing Mtn Mayhem one year at Sandwell, there was one particular section of slightly downhill singletrack into a right hander which started out dead smooth and by the end of the race was a series of near craters - huge peaks and troughs of braking bumps as riders had braked for the corner.

Hardtails are better for jumps (or bmx even better) and xc/tame stuff, full sus better for smashing the **** out of everything without a care 😆 You can of course do the latter on a HT but braking bumps are torture eventually.

not once have i needed or thought i needed FS

We could all ride rigid and notice it was rideable but uncomfortable.

Whats your problem with it?

Eff me, If you don't know, I can't explain it to you...

Come on try and explain it. It has turned into an informative thread, thanks to those who highlighted the science? Man up and justify what you said?

It's all rideable on THE RIGHT HARDTAIL

It's not about what bike you ride but more about the rider, if you have the balls to stay off the brakes It makes a world of difference to how a trail rides.

Is it not more about the geometry, than whether it's full sus or hardtail?

I've ridden bikes where it feels like I am constantly being pitched over the front on steep descents, where others feel like the front is a lot more likely to roll over a bump, rather than come to a dead stop.

First yr I went to Ciclo Montana, my forks dumped all their oil halfway through the week & were pretty much unrideable. Marco lent me an old set of Marzocchi's which had quite a bit more travel; they were a bit wandery on climbs, but made the bike loads quicker on the descents.

stumpy01 - Member

Is it not more about the geometry, than whether it's full sus or hardtail?

I'd definitely ride things on my Ragley that I wouldn't be comfortable riding on an Anthem or similiar. And I'm a sackload faster on it than on my Camber (which was built with almost entirely the same parts other than the frame) So yeah, it's not hardtail vs full suss as much as big bike vs little bike, or capable bike vs less capable bike.

What I find is that there's nothing I've ridden on my full suss or even my downhill bike that I won't ride on my hardtail, but, there's things I wouldn't have ridden on the hardtail if I hadn't already done them on the full suss.

Having sold a full suss and waiting for my next, I've been riding ht all the time of late. On trail centre level/XC stuff it feels like I'm cheating as the ht is so much quicker. Just jump/unweight for the rocky bits!

Hardtail is so much more enjoyable and more rewarding when you do make it down uber tech sections..... rode gatesgarth, scarth gap, black sail and styhead on my HT last year and loved it. In saying that it makes you a much quicker rider when you return to the full suss. Riding = epic whatever bike.

Link was posted earlier...best video Eva!

Hardly the collective, but brill!

DrP

I'd still say its more about the rider, my local club runs a avalanche style event and last years winner was on a anthem x 29er and he was up against all sorts from hardtails to dh bikes and everything in between.

Love that vid

I haven't seen it before and so thank you for that video.

Love that vid: "my neck still hurts a bit"

Although suspension plays a part in jumps and drops, that is not really where it's designed to shine (think of BMXers dropping to flat...)~ multiple hits and rough terrain is where a full suss will really shine above a hardtail.

A real testing ground for this is super tech and gnarly DH, where even highly skilled riders rely on the suspension to soak up and adapt to the terrain, beyond what can be achieved simply by dynamic body positioning~ if anyone managed a clean full run of Glencoe DH on a hardtail, I'd gladly buy them a pint.

For most people "Rideable" has a lot to do with being comfortable if a 6-7" skills compensator makes someone comfy enough to try trickier stuff then fair enough.

There is something to be said for learning to ride a HT competently before moving on to a bouncer but I can't really stand the pious spouting that some feel the need for on the topic... Yes you can confidently ride a HT through hades and back... It's still only riding a push bike...

I rode a ht for 10 years (though I did stop to sleep and go to work).
I now ride a fs. I find it much more comfortable. I'm pretty sure that everything I ride on it I would have ridden on my ht.

I had one situation where fs was definitely faster - a set of small mud steps down a hill. HT was bump, bump, bump, bump. FS was bang, bang, bang, bang, straight over the bumps.

[IMG] [/IMG]
The olympic XC course has a nice rock garden. If the lycra clad guys could race across then I think people will be fine on a HT suited for something rougher- especially if you take your time.

I'd still say its more about the rider

didnt think that actually needed stating but if I know I'm going to be riding some super technical trail tomorrow I can't decide to become a riding god but I can grab ONE OF the slack FSer from the cupboard instead of the hard tail.

if I know I'm going to be riding some super technical trail tomorrow I can't decide to become a riding god but I can grab the slack FSer from the cupboard instead of the hard tail.

The olympic XC course has a nice rock garden. If the lycra clad guys could race across then I think people will be fine on a HT suited for something rougher- especially if you take your time.

Whilst I totally agree that you can ride anything on a hardtail if you're good enough, in my experience the best way to handle the rough sections is to ride them as fast as possible so you skim the bumps, preloading beforehand so you ride light over them.

I've always thought full sus is cheating. Never liked them.

GB

Burn the man who has a cupboard for his bikes.

What next? A wardrobe for his shoes?

Burn the man who has a cupboard for his bikes.

I've always thought full sus is cheating.

or grow some balls.