[Closed] Richard Cunningham on Ebikes

inevitable motor size and speed war

The one that is limited by law?

I'm not sure I care what a bloke out of Happy Days has to say on the matter.

I'm not sure I care what a bloke out of Happy Days has to say on the matter

HEEEYYYYYY?

Ride what you like and have fun doing it, but don't pretend that an ebike (or pedal assist, or whatever you want to call it) is anything other than an electric motorbike by another name.

I must respond to this though as it's absolute garbage. People who keep dragging this up are absolutely clueless.

😆 I'd forgot the guy from Happy Days had the same name.
I'm now imaging the Fonz pulling wheelies on a Mantis Pro Floater.

It'd not garbage, biked will (and are) being made with bigger motors, bigger batteries, etc. People are often saying how easy it is to hack them to go faster. There are a lot of people out there with no environmental sensitivity who will happily ride these as dart as they can anywhere they want.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong. But I hope all the ebike 'apologists' will hold their hands up and take some blame if MTBers (and other cyclists) lose access rights due to these things.

biked will (and are) being made with bigger motors, bigger batteries, etc

And they are not e-bikes.

That's what the press and most people will call them though.

Right, that's it. I'm buying an ebike. The fact that it annoys [i]real cyclists[/i] so much is such a big plus I can no longer help myself.

I just think it's endemic of our society, people want the fun without having to actually put in any effort.

'I want to ride up that mountain, and then ride fast down the other side. But it's too hard, I might get sweaty. I know I'll buy a machine that will make it 50% easier.'

I know! Them new fangled gears. Cheating I say.

Careful, your talking to someone who owns 2 rigid SSers 😉

Nothing wrong with a bit of masochistic cycling.

Everything is clear now... 😀

I'm just going to miss out the middleman and jump from self propelled, to a mobility scooter when my belly is to big to sit on the handlebars, happy trails.

It'd not garbage

It is.

biked will (and are) being made with bigger motors, bigger batteries, etc

And if they are above 250w, work without pedalling or go over 25kph, they are not ebikes and are banned on trails. Just like petrol motorbikes. And cars. And lorries. And snowmobiles.

people want the fun without having to actually put in any effort.

Bastards

Just like petrol motorbikes. And cars. And lorries. And snowmobiles.

I'm a bit conflicted on this.

I don't want or need an e-bike, but i know people who are still riding because of them.

I can totally see the argument of guilty by association though. There are already anti-bike activists in places like the Peaks who believe mountain bikes are like motor bikes because they have disc brakes and knobbly tyres - and therefore belong on the road in their minds. Actually putting a motor in there, however limited (or illegally unlimited) just finishes off the argument for such people.

I'm really not sure what you can do about this though as the arguments on both sides include a very large portion of ignoring reality in my opinion...

My current view is that they're e-uplift bikes. Saves having a minibus and trailer or pickup truck following you about! 😉

The one that is limited by law?

The same law that means we all have reflectors, bells and only ever ride on bidleways and roads?

The same law that means we all have reflectors, bells and only ever ride on bidleways and roads?

We don't have to have a bell or reflectors...
[url= https://www.eta.co.uk/cycling-and-the-law/ ]Bells and the law[/url]

And cycling on a footpath is a civil tort, rather than being a crime... unlike riding a motorbike (or, I assume an unrestricted e-bike) on a bridleway, which is a crime.

The arguments against e-bikes - "you'll go too fast/it's not 'real'/they're too heavy/too complicated/it's cheating/it's just like a motorbike" were all aimed at suspension when it first came out and what are most of us riding these days? And yes, you can chip them, but you can chip cars and why are they made to go 120mph when the speed limit is 70? And all those kind of arguments.

In my experience so far, which obviously may change, but based on a couple of years of decent e-mtbs being around - e-mtbs aren't used by fast riders to go faster, they seem to be used by slow riders to keep up with their fitter mates.

There'll be plenty of debate though and we'll watch with interest...

The genie can't be put back in the bottle, though, and e-bikes are now with us.

I get the reason for e-bikes.

It's great that folks that can use them get access that they otherwise wouldn't have. That's fantastic.

A bicycle is powered by the rider.

They are NOT bicycles in my opinion because that's not what it's about.

Mopeds, powered assists, whatever. Not bicycles. Different things. Doesn't mean that those who need them are somehow less worthy or important.

Not bicycles. Not even close.

the most obvious being that whatever Ebikes are legally classed as, the inevitable motor size and speed war will eventually lead to conflict with other trail users, and this will only have a negative impact on those of us who want to maintain or improve the access status quo.

Well, frankly, No, its a silly argument as the opinion piece is based on the situation in America, unlike the UK where the legal restrictions and punishments for transgressing against them are very clear (and I suspect its only a matter of time before trading standards start raining down a world of shite on some people too)

perhaps more pertinently, I am in direct contact with the national access leads of three national non-bike user organisations, and none of them are discussing this as an issue... go figure.

I just think it's endemic of our society, people want the fun without having to actually put in any effort.

'I want to ride up that mountain, and then ride fast down the other side. But it's too hard, I might get sweaty. I know I'll buy a machine that will make it 50% easier.'

Do you think the same of downhillers using an uplift or ski lift?
I guess they're not really cyclists too.

ajantom - Member
I know we had that big ebike thread the other day,

Do you think the same of downhillers using an uplift or ski lift?
I guess they're not really cyclists

yeah, lazy ****ers!

It's a weird one. Downhill is a sport, it's related to the sport I enjoy, not the same sport though.

Same as riding an ebike. Similar, not the same.

@scotroutes -I started the thread cos I thought it was a well written article about a current topic that people might find interesting.

If it had a motor and it's a bike it's a motorbike.

There are already anti-bike activists in places like the Peaks who believe mountain bikes are like motor bikes because they have disc brakes and knobbly tyres - and therefore belong on the road in their minds. Actually putting a motor in there, however limited (or illegally unlimited) just finishes off the argument for such people.

But what will they do with that weak argument that's just based on not liking something? The law is against them here and changing national access laws isn't something a few grumpy activists can make happen.

These threads are getting quite funny, it's like a religious schism is emerging. I say down with the craven ebikers and their idols, they know not how to suffer on a bike as our forefathers have done.

Call them what you want to, bikes, motorbikes, damn nuisance, whatever.
When a mate can go from not being able to ride at all due to injury and not looking like being able to again to not only playing about in the woods with us but coming out on long road/off road treks because of that pedal assist motor I don't give a monkeys what anyone thinks about them, it's awesome.

There is no case-law on rights of way for electric bikes, all we have is the rule that bicycles are allowed on bridleways as well as horses (Section 30 of the Countryside Act 1968), but cars and motor bikes aren't. There is statutory law about riding electric bikes on the road, which has the effect that some electric bikes are not subject to the same rules as motorbikes but some are. That doesn't necessarily alter rights of way, just because something isn't a motorbike for the purposes of riding on the highway doesn't mean it is a bicycle for the purposes of s. 30 of the Countryside Act. The government says in guidance that mobility scooters are allowed on bridleways but I haven't tracked down the statutory reference to that. For permissive use (ie random trails in Forestry) it is up to the landowner

...will eventually lead to conflict with other trail users, and this will only have a negative impact on those of us who want to maintain or improve the access status quo.

The people that hate mountain bikers using trails, already hate us, the rest of the world gets on with not giving a shit.

I think in the 20 or so years I've been riding off road, I've been told almost continually by Horse riders that the Ramblers want us banned, I've been told by the off road scrambling and 4X4 users that the British Horse Society want us off bridleways, and in that entire time I've maybe had 3 or 4 people stop me and tell me that mountain bikes are a "bad thing" Nothing in terms of access has ever changed, and it probably never will, and even if using bridleways comes under that same trespass rules that cover FP, I still won't give a shit about that either.

But...It won't happen, Scotland is already open, Wales probably will be in a couple of years as well, If anything, in 10 years time, we'll more access not less, regardless of whether you just use muscles or a combination of muscles and electricity to turn your pedals

Seems to be a lot of fear of them with worst cases pushed out to back up those peoples ignorant fears. And they are simply worst case views, they have not happened and there is no evidence behind them.

And don't demonise the users of them as lazy, under achievers, societies ills of wanting things with no effort.

You don't like eBikes and you would never get one, so what.

all we have is the rule that bicycles are allowed on bridleways as well as horses (Section 30 of the Countryside Act 1968), but cars and motor bikes aren't. There is statutory law about riding electric bikes on the road, which has the effect that some electric bikes are not subject to the same rules as motorbikes but some are. That doesn't necessarily alter rights of way, just because something isn't a motorbike for the purposes of riding on the highway doesn't mean it is a bicycle for the purposes of s. 30 of the Countryside Act.

You mean apart from when Schedule 7 of CROW act 2000 specifically amended S30 Countryside Act 1968 by amending paragraph (1) and adding paragraph (5) to permit them?

Or had you overlooked that?

There is no case-law on rights of way for electric bikes

Oh really?

Where you can ride an EAPC

If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike. This means you can ride it on cycle paths and anywhere else pedal bikes are allowed.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

You mean apart from when Schedule 7 of CROW act 2000 specifically amended S30 Countryside Act 1968 by amending paragraph (1) and adding paragraph (5) to permit them?

Or had you overlooked that?

NP, You might have had the "as enacted" rather than the latest version. CROW also modified 1988 RTA s21 and s34 to permit EAPC on cycle tracks and to exclude them from criminal offences involving motor vehicles on commons and other land (though S193 LOPA 1925 still applies)

I bang on about this all the time, but the problem in the UK is that a good proportion of cyclists want it to themselves. They want to go on the organised ride, to the trail centre, record it all on Strava to post on social media, they ride the right bike dressed in the current fashionable clothes. They go to the cool cafe and read the books, magazines and websites. They're proper cyclists.
But when it's time to go 2'miles to the shops for food, or to go to work, or to go round to a friends house, or out for a meal, they get in the car, and moan about the traffic and the price of the car park.
The European attitude towards bicycles is different. They just ride everywhere they can. But they're not cyclists....
And this is where ebikes fit in. Utility bikes. Transprt. Load luggers. And that's why they sell in their hundreds of thousands. Practical, healthy, cheap (than a car) fun.
That's what we struggle to understand here in the UK. And that's why blinkered attitudes like the OPs come from. Open your mind. 🙂

That argument would be fine except none of the many eBikes in my local LBS are designed for pootling around town and doing the shopping. They're all £2.5k+ enduro gnarrr chariots. No one making or selling those is concerned with shifting UK attitudes on sustainable transport.

And this is where ebikes fit in. Utility bikes. Transprt. Load luggers. And that's why they sell in their hundreds of thousands. Practical, healthy, cheap (than a car) fun.
That's what we struggle to understand here in the UK. And that's why blinkered attitudes like the OPs come from. Open your mind.

And (I bet) no one has a problem with that, and it's what the law envisaged.

The issue is people who take them on trails and do far more erosive damage than a person ever could. If it's enough to annoy other MTB'ers you can be sure it'll annoy ramblers.

Not all e-bikers are idiots, but from my experience there's a disproportionate number.

[dreamy heart strumming music plays as audience gains a view into a ramblers wet dream]

NIMBY Rambler : electric motorbikes are ruining Clunge Dyke in the Bresticles national park.

Warden and MTB'ers : they have the same legal status as push bikes and barely any more power, no they're not.

A while later after much tooing and froing, and a youtube video of a nobber on a e-bike wheeling up Clunge Dyke spraying mud everywhere going viral (amongst ramblers anyway) all bikes are banned.

[dreamy heart strumming music plays as ambler wakes up with a bit of a mess in his pants]

They're all £2.5k+ enduro gnarrr chariots. No one making or selling those is concerned with shifting UK attitudes on sustainable transport.

Kiss goodbye to pedal-powered bicycles, says Brompton boss

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/kiss-goodbye-to-pedal-powered-bicycles-says-brompton-boss/020094

If it's enough to annoy other MTB'ers you can be sure it'll annoy ramblers.

not a good example - everything annoys ramblers (most entitled people I have come across)

Again, no examples of what most people are actually using eBike for (getting to shops, work - with aim of making the ride easier not faster) I have seen just one off road this year where I live and that was a guy with his young daughter sat in a baby seat on the back.

You are making it a bigger problem than it is and then trying to blame everything on them in some theoretical future.

The issue is people who take them on trails and do far more erosive damage than a person ever could. If it's enough to annoy other MTB'ers you can be sure it'll annoy ramblers.

I'm really not convinced how an e-bike can do any more damage than an average bloke on a mtb.
Plenty of people ride faster than an e-bike can on sections I ride, drag brakes etc.

The argument of people de-restricting them is a pointless one. Plenty of mtber ride footpaths and only last week i was overtaken by a motocross bike on a bike path.

I have a tough commute to work and i'm really starting to fancy a 29er hardtail e-bike makes far more sense than getting a car for mornings when i haven't got full steam and have a tough day ahead.

That argument would be fine except none of the many eBikes in my local LBS are designed for pootling around town and doing the shopping. They're all £2.5k+ enduro gnarrr chariot

And as per pp post your lbs is in the UK I assume ? Kinda backs up pp post.

Ebikes are just another example of our instant everything culture, instant gratification, instant credit, have it now. Want a six pack, strap this device to you, and voila, no effort required 😉 Now instant fitness, with ebikes.

More erosion, quite possibly. I have a big climb at the start of my ride, with some slippery chalky sections. I'm just getting some fitness back, and the other day I cleared the climb for the first time in awhile - cue sense of (small) achievement and a sense I,m making some progress. So I met an ebiker on the same hill, "hi l've just ridden up and down this trail 8 times" - so more erosion, yes, l reckon!

The comparison with uplift days is a flawed one, unless your saying that it's normal to have a truck follow you everywhere and give you a lift up every hill, on every ride you do.

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jU_Tykoh_oWdc-KfBf7m4eKUAO5dCbQcidUEo1-Ws8RS5vUlsgHDAgBvhMQ0De-qvDY0P9PfkkK7Ig=w1920-h1080-rw-no [/img]

Aye instant gratification and erosion.

Or perhaps infact making it a viable car alternative for carrying decent loads. - motor hasnt arrived yet hence no chainset.

But there shall be no trail riding here its purely for shops/recycling/transporting family//errands and taking another car off the road for menial tasks that mean you take the car because a regular bike doesnt have capacity and humphing about the weight(up to 200lbs) under own steam results in you turning up a sweaty git.

Im actually thinking about getting rid of my car and using a combo of my regular bike and this to cover all local journeys if it works out.

Already had my first serious enquiry about doing a conversion for someone who has a lower like distrophy issue resulting from a car crash to allow his wife and him to ride together.

Ebikes are just another example of our instant everything culture, instant gratification

Anyone that says that has just misunderstood the point of them. Talk to some users of them and ask them why they are using them. It is to make riding easier and more enjoyable, It is rarely because they want a quick fix to getting faster without doing training. Those people are just in your head I'm afraid.

Think outside of the box a little.

How about putting the same amount of exercise into ebiking? It could mean that you just travel that much further and do that many more climbs, because you have pedal assist. It may mean that you do a 40mile ride instead of a 20mile ride in the same amount of time...

^ yup.

[img] [/img]

Me and my OH, her 1st bike camping trip - 85-90 miles in the Chilterns and on the Ridgeway over a weekend. Usually she does 10, 20 miles tops as an easy social ride.

E-MTBs get used in a pretty similar way from what I've seen. No roost. Only quicker than an 'averagely quick' rider when climbing.

Not convinced by extra erosion, an ebike at top whack will put of 400ish watts, which even I can manage in short bursts. Also, I've never managed to lose traction simply by applying too much power. In the situations I have, I'm pretty sure I would have with a normal bike. The extra weight also is a non starter, as me and my ebike combined weight less than a few of my riding buddys and their normal bikes

Well he makes some valid points amid all the waffle, but the access debate in the US seems more sensitive to MTBs being power assisted anyway.

Anyone that says that has just misunderstood the point of them. Talk to some users of them and ask them why they are using them. It is to make riding easier and more enjoyable, It is rarely because they want a quick fix to getting faster without doing training. Those people are just in your head I'm afraid.

You contradict yourself "making riding easier" = instant gratification/quick fix.

Would I get the same satisfaction completing the same climb on an ebike? I don't think so 😉

I'm off for a real ride 😉

"making riding easier" = instant gratification/quick fix

Unless you're on a rigid SS isn't that all a grey area?

.. you are, aren't you : )

It might just make riding less of a grim sufferfest for some. Not everyone likes riding up hills and tbh I think a lot of the ego-efforts / suffer score / KOM stuff in cycling can do one : ) I like a physical test on a bike but cycling is about a lot more than that.

Chains and cogs cause unnecessary erosion providing instant gratification, keep it real.

[img] [/img]

Re erosion, travelling further = more erosion, no? If average rides double in length due to ebikes, then that's twice the erosion.

I expect the tarmac road to my house is worn out from all the extra trips I'll be doing on my bike.

You going to limit mtb use on those same trails Futon? What the strava heatmap usage like? Or are only your allowed to use them?

I mean it's not like ALL natural trails you ride are cause by some form of erosion, whether it be animal, hiker or bike.
Though what actual evidence do you have that (uk legal) e-bikes cause more erosion, than a normal mtb? Obviously that e-bike rider you saw is only ever going to session that one trail...

I think he seen some in his LBS too that's all the evidence you need, that and a trip to Europe where you only stay in the city.

You contradict yourself "making riding easier" = instant gratification/quick fix.

Making something easier does not equal instant gratification, it just means making something a bit easier.

 

I've spent the summer with three ppl on e-bike's, I do not have one. The only ppl who noticed they were on e-bike were those who were told, even other MTb-ers didn't notice unless they were being passed. Those same ppl (the non-mtber's) would then look at my bike and ask, is that an e-bike too? It's a non-issue to the general public in my actual experience of e-bikes on trails.

Also my local trails have not suddenly exploded, due to erosion, well other than the natural erosion caused by heavy rains every year.

Whose side am I siding on here? My price is a bacon butty and a pint.

Why can't people be allowed to have fun? If someone wants an e-bike so what? All this 'ruining the trails' stuff is twaddle.

'Real' cyclists damage the environment too. How about the litter that gets dropped by mistake or at events? Shall we ban events then?

How about the fact you fall off and hurt yourself and then my taxes pay for you to get mended in the NHS? Shall we stop you on your 'real' bike?

Or the opposite..what cost is reduced by enabling a les abled person get outside and have some positive and emotional experiences..might even relieve depression and save money on drugs..

oooh makes me agitated all this getting aggro at e-bikes...

Is this classified as a rant? Please rate me if so... 😀