[Closed] Retraining your body to eat fat not carbs- what to eat pre, during and post ride

[i]schmiken - Member
By the way, don't be tempted by paleo stuff, utter bilge.
Evidence?[/i]

Don't take the bait.

Trying so hard not to feed the troll, I've got work I should be doing! 🙂

[i]Trying so hard not to feed the troll, I've got work I should be doing![/i]

Which reminds me. Where's the OP ? Ok, he's harmless enough, but IIRC, he's usual more active on his own threads.
❓

I pickedc up a lot from thinking about the stuff by Phil Maffetone in connection with 'metabolic efficiency training'.

The topic has been well covered on a fair few of the [url= http://trailrunnernation.com/category/podcasts/ ]Trail Runner Nation podcasts[/url] - granted they approach the question from the perspective of ultra-running, but endurance athletics are endurance athletics whatever ...

The short version always comes down to the same thing tho' - don't eat crappy food. 😛

ton - Member
I trust idave

Want to PM me your online banking logon details?

Just in case you lose them, obviously 😆

Following this with interest. I've been following a pretty "primal" diet for about a month now (through necessity rather than choice) & have been quite surprised at the results. I've lost half a stone & dropped a jean size - can't remember when I was last in 30" Levi's. I feel great, but this may be more to do with cutting wheat & dairy; I've found/rediscovered some great foods - I'm probably the only one nodding sagely at the coconut milk & Mongolian sea salt.

I rode Charlie's 100 mile gravel dash the other weekend & was frankly a little worried about how I'd cope, especially only 2-3 wks into the diet & not being fully adapted. I ate a normal size meal of chicken & sweet potatoes on the evening before & then a couple of sausages with egg, almond butter & banana pancakes for brekkie (try 'em).

The first 90 mins were hard work, especially keeping up with my buddy, but then everything clicked into place. Fuelled during the ride on nuts, dried fruit & a couple of bananas, oh & a slab of chicken liver pate & a chunk of ham in the pub at lunch time. Post ride I experienced zero muscle pain.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out with faster paced, shorter rides of around 6 hrs.

I find Chip's recalling his bonking storey of riding into the tent to purchase all the cakes he could get for a fiver. Quite amusing.

I'm sure there was a thread on here yonks ago regaling stories of the bonk/hitting the wall. The funniest I read was someone saying they were trying to prize the brake pads out of the caliper to eat the pad material they were that desperate

What worked for me was idave diet/4 hour body and some training.

When i was into it all I had a fitness test done 5 years ago and this was the result

[img] [/img]

The guy said my base endurance was terrible and this showed at 127bpm i was only burning 43% from fat. He said this should be way over half!

Anyway. to cut a long story short i followed the idave diet for 5 months. I lost 7kg (mainly fat) and increased that 43% figure to 84%. I never did any training rides over 1hr (mostly indoor base training)

[i]The funniest I read was someone saying they were trying to prize the brake pads out of the caliper to eat the pad material they were that desperate[/i]
I think some fellas, stuck in the antarctic, were reduced to eating the grease from bearings in machinery they had with them. Obviously, the husky dogs had already been eaten. But that was just straight starvation.

[i]Anyway. to cut a long story short i followed the idave diet for 5 months. I lost 7kg (mainly fat) and increased that 43% figure to 84%. I never did any training rides over 1hr (mostly indoor base training)[/i]
That is impressive. How's things going since then ?

Asking for evidence against paleo diet is a little like asking for scientific evidence against homeopathy.
But here's a read anyway...:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-paleo-diet-half-baked-how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat/

@trickydisco, your figures don't look too bad to me thought the fat% is low! I also went on a bit of a fitness kick start of 2012. I followed mostly an idave style diet and found that at some point I'd developed a wheat allergy which I'd been putting down to IBS and why I felt awful a lot, I used to carbo load on pasta before races and big rides was not helping at all.

Anyways I also got tested in Jan 2012:
Aerobic Base Point Threshold Maximum
VO2 (ml/kg/min) 20.6 32.3
43.5
Calories
(per minute) 8.7 16.0 18.7
Calories from fat 4.2 0 0
% Fat
49% % 0%
Heart rate (bpm) 134 177 192
Power (watts)
160 280 320

(no idea how to paste the graph)

I'm now near 2 stone lighter and significantly more rapid. Reminds me to get retested really interested to see the improvements I've made in 2.5 years.

[i]Asking for evidence against paleo diet is a little like asking for scientific evidence against homeopathy[/i]

Ummm.
[i]Most nutritionists consent that the Paleo diet gets at least one thing right—cutting down on processed foods[/i]
That's a great start 😀

But then:
[i]But the Paleo diet bans more than just highly processed junk foods—in its most traditional form, it prohibits any kind of food unavailable to stone age hunter–gatherers, including dairy rich in calcium, grains replete with fiber, and vitamins and legumes packed with protein.[/i]
Calcium in a lot of dairy isn't actually "bio-available" and epidemiological studies find no correlation between high consumption of dairy and fewer bones fractures, etc. We don't need loads and loads of fiber. Legumes may contain protein, but not as much protein as beef.
😉

[i]Several examples of recent and relatively speedy human evolution underscore that our anatomy and genetics have not been set in stone since the stone age.[/i]
Ah, so that's why we've adapted to high carbohydrate diets, so well, ie, consuming waaay more carbs than cavemen did.
That's right, there is no obesity, atherosclerosis or dementia, on planet earth.

[i]Even if eating only foods available to hunter–gatherers in the Paleolithic made sense, it would be impossible[/i].
Whomever wrote that has missed the point. Of course replicating paleolithic diets would be impossible. Nobody left a written record for us. So the diet is applied in a modern day context.
I think most folk get that.

[i]In most cases, we have transformed the species we eat through artificial selection: we have bred cows, chickens and goats to provide as much meat, milk and eggs as possible and have sown seeds only from plants with the most desirable traits—with the biggest fruits, plumpest kernels, sweetest flesh and fewest natural toxins. Cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts and kale are all different cultivars of a single species, Brassica oleracea;[/i]
Yeap, but chickens don't lay cheese and ham toast sandwiches or loaves of bread though. They're still made of, chicken and produce eggs.

[i]The Paleo diet not only misunderstands how our own species, the organisms inside our bodies and the animals and plants we eat have evolved over the last 10,000 years, it also ignores much of the evidence about our ancestors' health during their—often brief—individual life spans (even if a minority of our Paleo ancestors made it into their 40s or beyond, many children likely died before age 15).[/i]
Ah, mortality. It's solely down to diet then. So, conversely, does that mean if I eat a big mac, I'll live to be 200 years old then...
Conveniently for some, we are unable to establish how many died from CVD, stroke, cancer, bear attack, etc, etc.

[i]Atherosclerosis across [b]4000[/b] years of human history: the Horus study of four ancient populations.[/i]
Nice try, but doesn't that time span fall within the Neolithic, ie, the agricultural era by which time grains had found there way into Human diets.
[i]Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Atherosclerosis is thought to be a disease of modern human beings and related to contemporary lifestyles. However, its prevalence before the modern era is unknown. We aimed to evaluate [b]preindustrial[/b] populations for atherosclerosis.[/i] That wouldn't be pre-agricultural populations then...

[i]FINDINGS:
Probable or definite atherosclerosis was noted in 47 (34%) of 137 mummies and in all four geographical populations: 29 (38%) of 76 ancient Egyptians, 13 (25%) of 51 ancient Peruvians, two (40%) of five Ancestral Puebloans, [b]and [u]three (60%) of five[/u] Unangan hunter gatherers [/b][/i]
5 subjects from the hunter gatherer community. I'm not sure that's a large enough group to be representative...... Not withstanding that H/Gs can eat man made food too.

[i]The Hiwi are not particularly healthy. Compared to the Ache, a hunter–gatherer tribe in Paraguay, the Hiwi are shorter, thinner, more lethargic and less well nourished. Hiwi men and women of all ages constantly complain of hunger. Many Hiwi are heavily infected with parasitic hookworms, which burrow into the small intestine and feed on blood. And only 50 percent of Hiwi children survive beyond the age of 15.[/i]
All that tells us is that one tribe does better than another.

Paleo is there/here, for those who get it. Along with umpteen other suggestions for a diet. So take your pick.

What is less disputable, imo, is how we, modern Humans living today. Respond to high carbohydrate diets. Obesity is real and it's right here, right now. Along with elevated levels of CVD, cancer and all the other [i]diseases of civilization[/i].

That is impressive. How's things going since then ?

This was some years ago. I got really into it all and was time crunched (hence the 1 training at a time). I improved my fitness massively in those 6 months. Shaved about 3 minutes off my TT time in 1 year and got top 10 finishes in cross races.

I'm still doing the odd cross race but I'm not idieting anymore (apart from keeping the protein for breakfast thing and not as much bread). I'm still 68kg and haven't put on weight despite not following it strictly.

I don't do any training now just cycling to work but those 6 months taught me a lot about fitness, how my body responds to exercise and the types of food I eat (not raising insulin)

[i]those 6 months taught me a lot about fitness, how my body responds to exercise and the types of food I eat (not raising insulin)[/i]
An added bonus of putting the work in, is as you did, was learning what works for you and receiving real results.
That's a great story.
🙂

Solo you're a believer, nothing you're told will change your mind, only cause you to hang on to your beliefs. Paleo stuff is just a made up cash cow for some people. You've eaten fewer calories, and less junk, well done, but we already knew that. Calling it Paleo is to generate cash from believers. Same as sciencey looking graphs tbh. Do those graphs show that you burn no fat at maximal, or even sub maximal effort? Surely not because that is totally ridiculous.

Solo. Bravo sir, well argued. 🙂

didgerman - try reading the Paleo Solution by Robb Wolf or alternatively the Paleo Diet for Athletes by Joe Friel. Real application of a dietary choice, backed up by scientific research and true stories. It does annoy me when people assume that because its called Paleo that you have to eat exactly what 'cavemen' ate. Do some actual research on what eating Paleo means and then come back and argue properly. 🙂

Is there actually any food readily available that can be considered as paeleo today? I can't see how any meat raised on any farm and coming from any animal that humans have cross bred can be seen as paeleo. The same goes for virtually all the plants we eat. You'd have to go to a mountain stream to even get paeleo water these days and that'll probably be a bit acidic.

My own take on health and diet is that across the world humans survive and thrive on a very wide range of diets and we wouldn't have populated most of the world unless we could. One thing we can't get away with though is sitting on our arses all day long and rarely doing anything physical. This forum will probably account for the deaths of many a big hitter whose just made one to many posts. 🙂

[i]Solo you're a believer, nothing you're told will change your mind, only cause you to hang on to your beliefs[/i]

Actually, I've tried to maintain an open mind on other POVs. So for example, when folk were singing the praises of Matt Fitzgerald and his book "Racing weight". Instead of ignoring it. I purchased a copy and read it. Yes, I spent my own money on a book, rather than remain narrow minded and biased in favour of just one idea. Furthermore, yesterday, for the recommendations in this thread, I have ordered two more books, again just to read alternative POV's on the subject. Not forgetting that I read your link. I could have just ignored it. So, I am trying to see/appreciate other people's POV.

[i]Paleo stuff is just a made up cash cow for some people. You've eaten fewer calories, and less junk, well done, but we already knew that. Calling it Paleo is to generate cash from believers.[/i]

Actually, "Paleo" or at least the version I'm familiar with, observes the insulin response in Humans. AFAIK, Paleo really addresses the huge increase in carbohydrate intake, in western diets. To point out to folk that on the face of it, we do not seem to do so well, consuming 50% and sometimes more of our daily intake, in the form of refined carbs.
Have people tried to make money at it ? of course, like any other "diet". It seems strange to me that anyone would pick-out paleo for vilification on that basis, specifically.

As for burning fat. I like to listen to Ton. He's burnt a fair bit of it.

Best retraining you can give your body is to lose the processed foods and all the factory/industrially farmed meats and dairy. Drink more water.

Exercise wise; a mix of high volume low intensity and low volume high intensity should do the trick.

100!

Now what we talking about?

[i]100!

Now what we talking about?[/i]

Nothing important. Just post an amusing picture or Gif. We could use some humour.
🙂

Where does is say that if you're following a Paleo diet you're consuming fewer calories?

talking of carbs, paleo, calories in calories out

. Did you know Sweden has become the first western government to recommend a high fat/low carb diet

The switch in dietary advice followed the publication of a two-year study by the independent Swedish Council on Health Technology Assessment. The committee reviewed 16,000 studies published through May 31, 2013

There are many mantras we have been taught to accept as truths:

“Calories are calories, no matter where they come from.”

“It’s all about the balance between calories in and calories out.”

“People are fat because they don’t move enough.”

“Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.”

“Of course these are not true. This kind of nonsense has people with weight problems feeling bad about themselves. As if it were all about their inferior character. For many people a greater intake of fat means that you’ll feel satiated, stay so longer, and have less of a need to eat every five minutes. On the other hand, you won’t feel satiated after drinking a Coke, or after eating almost fat free, low-fat fruit yogurt loaded with sugar. Sure, exercise is great in many ways, but what really affects weight is diet.”

Prof. Fredrik Nyström, from Linköping, Sweden – a long-time critic of the low-fat diet

[i]Did you know Sweden has become the first western government to recommend a high fat/low carb diet[/i]

I hadn't realized that the LCHF thing had actually been considered by the Government in Sweden, but I was aware that Andreas Eenfeldt has been giving talks on the subject. I don't think he's mentioned the 'P' word though. But rather just shares his thoughts on the subject via his blog.

I'll be interested to see how things turn out in Sweden, with regard to this LCHF approach.

I'm not sure what exactly is happening, if anything, at a UK government level, with respect to looking at least, at current carbohydrate intake, in the UK diet.

Sweden hasn't done anything of the sort, internet rumour started by people trying to make money from paleo, probably...
Why would I read a book to find out about paleo, from a paleo supporter?
I'll read what I need to know from professionals with no bias thankyouverymuch.
I think the problem with this thread is the original question was flawed. Or at least, with the amount of guff flying around about nutrition these days, that question would attract those that have been won over by fad and become believers.
Interesting.

Sweden hasn't done anything of the sort, internet rumour started by people trying to make money from paleo, probably...

It specifically concerned dietary treatment of obesity (rather than healthy diets in general) and concluded that a HFLC diet was superior to LF in the short term (6 months) and equal to it in the long term.

They also concluded that low-GI diets were more beneficial than high-GI diets for keeping the weight off (for people who have previously been obese) but the study did not extend as far as saying whether HF or LF was better in this instance.

Report is here for those interested:

[url= http://www.sbu.se/en/Published/Yellow/Dietary-treatment-of-obesity/ ]http://www.sbu.se/en/Published/Yellow/Dietary-treatment-of-obesity/[/url]

Thanks for the clarification. Haven't read the link yet, but I'll try to make time to.

fwiw, I appreciate your contributions on these threads. Sounds as if you've done your research.
🙂

hora - Member

I read somewhere ages ago you are supposed to eat high protein and fat? This helps your body 'learn' to eat the fat content on your body?

your body doesn't learn to use the fat, it uses fat when sugar is low or glucagon levels are depleted.

intake of sugars causes insulin release which has the effect of inhibiting fatty acid oxidation (simplistic version). sugar increases absorption while fat slows it down.

your body doesn't learn to use the fat, it uses fat when sugar is low or glucagon levels are depleted.

You sure about that? It ONLY uses fat when sugar is low?

Think you better tell that Dr Mike stroud geezer who trekked Antarctica with Ranulph fiennes. They were taking on over 11,000 calories from mainly fat and still lost weight. Do you think their glycogen levels or sugar was low the whole time?

[url= http://thegymmonkey.wordpress.com/2010/03/06/high-fat-army-rations-and-the-effect-of-endurance-and-high-intensity-exercise-on-fat-metabolism/#more-92 ]High fat army rations and the effect of endurance[/url]

OK I should have been less ambiguous in my reply. sugar is preferentially used as an energy source. when sugar levels decrease so does insulin and more fat is oxidised. I didn't mean for it to come across that no fat is burned when sugar is present. sugar is stored at a finite level in glucagon unlike fat so a high fat intake will give you "reserves" rather than pissing it away if it was a high sugar. High sugar will also cause dehydration and fatigue.

sugar is stored at a finite level in glucagon

you are a bit mixed up. Glucagon is a hormone.

My understanding is that your body burns less fat as the intensity increases. Hence the long slow miles thing. There must always be glycogen present or you bonk and start to break down lean tissue (muscle) to keep going..

Although with HI you burn calories at a higher rate for hours/many hours after you finish. EPOC.

If you mix both you get the best of both.

I read the boi about that trek. They were pure skeletal by the end. Not surprised they had to eat what they did.

iamconfusedagain - Member

sugar is stored at a finite level in glucagon

you are a bit mixed up. Glucagon is a hormone.

spell checker 🙁 I ment glycogen

Fasted rides- are you supposed to end up with a rusty tap water-ass post-ride? 😆

could try having caffine before a ride (1-2 hours) which is ment to help fat get burnt