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If anything it’s the awfulness of the landing that hit me- you can’t come up short of course but you also can’t go long, you go straight into unprepared hill, you’ve got to land and turn. And if you land to the left it’s just a less awful cliff, to the right it’s more unprepared hill.
Could all be a moot point as the wind will whistle up that valley and hit that waterfall jump so if there’s the slightest breeze on the day I doubt many will wish to jump 80ft over such a sketchy gap onto a small landing, I hope they have an alternative route planned.
Does appear that he let go of the bike as soon as he left the ramp, I imagine wasn’t ready for the compression or the kick?
That's what I thought - like the suspension was totally wrong. On BK's video Matt talks about how intense the kicker was - he didn't see the takeoff until he was on it because of the steepness. Matt also said he'd had his suspension 'softened' since Maydena, perhaps that helped him? He certainly looked the least out of control of the lot. BK looked like he was spat out off line.
When they first looked at it the landing was straight on to the scaffold, then when they jump it the landing has been extended by a good metre or more
Pretty sure in Matt's vid that was already there when they were looking at it and they said it was temporary and going to be removed.
Same for rampage, man made lines where athletes go to have free choice not bound by overbearing international federations etc.
Rampage lines are designed/built but the people that ride them. Here it’s the organisers that have built a massive, risky jump, ‘You want to do well? Clear it, try not to die.’
Riders may well be prepared to take the risks, it’s whether or not they have the ability to back it up (sending 100ft canyon gaps, it’s not guaranteed), and to not kill them if they get it wrong. I had the bottle to send a double in a (last of the day) race run that would put me several places higher in the rankings, what I lacked was the ability and despite it being a grassroots beginner event, my screwing it up (coming up short) broke 6 ribs and a collar bone. Turning that up to 11 with no extra precautions? Wreckless.
What came to mind for me, in Matt's video, was the same debate/discussion before the 1st real run, that I recall a few friends and I would have before we would kayak something new and hard and difficult and scary (and in White water kayaking, what makes it hard is usually what makes it risky too). Whether the middle section of the Oetz (to swim is to die in that... I chose not to paddle it, 2 mates ran it a couple of times), or bolder-fests with sumps and syphons, or running big waterfalls. And when I was paddling, nobody was sponsored or professional (but a couple of my much-more-talented-than-I mates were up there with the best in that era, as we all chose to have real jobs that funded the boating trips to far away places). So I'm not sure it is all because of the sponsorship.
I do have real concerns about the long term health of those getting repeat concussions though.
The one person that I thought would have a go (Gee) didn’t jump it, I wonder why?.
I hope it’s self preservation for his sake, credit to Gee’s ability to bounce back from life ending injuries, also credit to his very extensive medical treatment and physios, I wish I had access to such as I’m sure I’d be in a better place, as would many others.
If a rider is injured whilst competing in this event do Redbull cover their treatment costs and aftercare or do the riders have to rely on the nhs/personal medical insurance and their own pocket? Genuinely interested?
If a rider is injured whilst competing in this event do Redbull cover their treatment costs and aftercare or do the riders have to rely on the nhs/personal medical insurance and their own pocket? Genuinely interested?
Rumour is that it's going to have to be pulled as the scaffolding isn't designed to cope with a safety net .
reeksy
Full MemberPretty sure in Matt’s vid that was already there when they were looking at it and they said it was temporary and going to be removed.
Plus, just look at it- it's a bit of chipboard sheet with a bunch of planks screwed into it from the TOP, plus a few scaff poles under. I'm assuming it was a bit less shonky than it looked, probably the planks are sandwiched with others underneath, but I didn't even like seeing people stand on it, you'd definitely not want to land a bike on it.
somafunk
Full MemberThe one person that I thought would have a go (Gee) didn’t jump it, I wonder why?
He's not racing the actual event. I mean, he's also 39 now, and just recovered from smashing himself to pieces, and doesn't have a lot to prove or really that much to gain from it either I reckon.
Someone who knows what he's talking about...
Had anyone here been a spectator at previous hardlines?
How much of a hike is it for spectators to get to the top of the course?
I've tickets for Sunday but we have two full days of riding beforehand but would like to get to towards the top of possible. Just not sure how far my tired legs will hike me up the hill....
Sam has spent a lot of time building monster sized jumps so should know what he is talking about. Even Bernie's attempt was close to disaster when he landed really close to the edge.
Kicky jumps and racing also never go well.
Sam has spent a lot of time building monster
sizedjumps
And this too.
I'll presume that Jim was using flat pedals, that could have been a lot worse if he was clipped in 🙈
I went two years ago on the Sunday Spectators were not allowed any higher than when they land after the cannon coming out of the woods. It’s still quite the hike up to that point with only one path set out, which include pull ropes it was that steep. As you may imagine, it got quite congested with spectators and it’s not the best spectator experience, save for being blown away by the size of the jumps!
Rumour is that it’s going to have to be pulled as the scaffolding isn’t designed to cope with a safety net .
Really. Given this is supposed to built by a pro builder with the backing of a big company Im amazed that no body thought about that at the design stage. I would have thought for the riders saftey basic things like would have been considered
there was a bit on BK's video where Matt J was talking about an 8 metre radius - it wasn't clear if he was talking about how it was or how it should be but they were obviously mindful it was a bit kicky for the speed even before they tried it.
I got the feeling from the Jim Monro vid that he lost the front end at the highest g point of the transition as if it was a slick surface. It didn't look as if it was a grippiest for sure.
I don't know how I feel about it, I don't know if it's any more or less dangerous than Rampage but guys have been paralysed there before and it wouldn't be good for that to happen here. £15k isn't enough to risk that much.
I’ve tickets for Sunday but we have two full days of riding beforehand but would like to get to towards the top of possible. Just not sure how far my tired legs will hike me up the hill….
I went 2 years ago on the Saturday and officially you could go as high as the cliff drop/cannon. Plenty of people were on the hillside above and I walked/scrambled to within sight of the start. That's unlikely to be possible this year as the course now goes that way. I'd expect to only be able to get as high as the cliff drop but that should give good views.
You know that joke about Michael Bublé emerging from his cave just before Christmas? That's like Chrismac before Hardline
I can't see the race happening on the gap jump, even if they adjust the take off and install safety nets (if possible). I just can't see how that shonky landing is going to last with so many riders and high impacts. There's all kinds of issues!
Therefore it seems that they'll have to hastily install a bridge across the canyon or re-route to the original track. The new track seems to still have a lot of bang for its buck in terms of features as you're eliminating the steel step up and cliff drop and gaining some gnar drops and that odd hip wooden feature.
speaking of which any idea what's happening with that? BK seemed to cast doubt on whether it was doable in the LSD vid. It looked insane. I suppose if Dan Athy isn't guinea pigging these features and is leaving it to BK then we're still in the development stage of the new track
loads of people have called for the TT to be banned. However they have done all they can realistically do with safety
All of this may be true but people still die every year, everyone taking part knows the risks involved and are prepared to take those risks,
Not just the riders at the TT making these decisions. I have spent a lot of time pulling people out of badly parked rally cars over the last forty years and went as part of the safety cover for the Manx Rally on several occasions. Regularly got invited to come back for the TT and said no thanks. Fatalities on rallies do happen of course but they are few and far between. It tends to be metal that hits the scenery first rather than flesh and bone. Although I have had to deal with some bad accidents I have been lucky not to have attended any life changing injuries or worse.
Going on a "holiday" where I could expect several of the medical crew to deal with a fatality really does not appeal. I was aware that some of the medics based on the island were somewhat torn as they didn't want to have to deal with a serious injury or fatality either but found it difficult to opt out of what was happening on their doorstep. One, no longer with us, told me he dreaded it, but felt morally obliged to try and make sure the safety cover was as good as possible.
I don't know whether they had any form of first aid/medical cover for that Hardline practice session or for the event itself but if I had turned up to find that jump I would have said thanks but no thanks and walked away, but then I am old and grumpy.
@sharkattack. I’m not sure what to think that you are bored enough to collate my comments. The title sponsor is not relevant to my views it’s just nobody else does these events. Im interested in which comments you think aren’t accurate when it comes to what event sponsors want from an vent
Pinkbike collates your most recent comments not me. (Also I'm at work so who cares?)
No one is as vigorously active as you are, on multiple platforms, raging against riders being used to "sell fizzy drinks". It just makes me curious.
Did your wife run off with a Red Bull executive?
As others have said, BK and Gee were the official test riders for the sections of the course, Matt J and Jim just happened to be in the area and agreed to also test out the new features. The whole point being to get rider feedback back and develop the course so that it's ridable before all of the other riders turn up this week.
The whole point of hard line is that it's the most challenging of DH courses and not a WC style event.
RB are sponsors, just like rampage, where similar jumps and risk is involved (and no safety netting) so I'm sure that they have contingency/insurance and legal teams too.
One thing Jim's crash has done is give the event a whole bunch of additional marketing and promo over a week before the actual event.
Referencing comments above regarding the TT.
What's going on at hardline is not comparable in the slightest, except it's dsngerous.
TT Riders know the course, the course doesn't have radical changes introduced at short notice, it's all rideable, the danger comes from how hard they want to push it. It's a professionally run event where rider safety is at the forefront. This goes on all year round, highlighting how much time, effort and thought goes into it.
Hardline 2024 on the other hand appears to be very amateurish. Why does testing happen in the week before the event? How can features, built by professional trail builders, be so poor and wrong? Why was it built without any consideration for rider safety and the only thought of a net came a few days before the event after someone had got hurt? It really isn't difficult to see the risk and danger associated with that feature.
If Jim Munro wasn't an official tester, why was he allowed to hit an untested and unapproved feature. Again, no H&S consideration and amateur hr. I'm sure if he had died, the H&S executive would have had a field day.
I'm sorry, but the Athertons aren't covering themselves in glory here and are dragging hardline down into a farce.
Why does testing happen in the week before the event?
Calender and other commitments - same as every other event.
How can features, built by professional trail builders, be so poor and wrong?
This is why they test. Smart for every other event - lips changed at darkest for example.
Why was it built without any consideration for rider safety and the only thought of a net came a few days before the event after someone had got hurt?
As far as I'm aware only keyboard warriors have talked about a safety net...?
Jim Munro wasn’t an official tester, why was he allowed to hit an untested and unapproved feature.
He's one of the riders and as such took the call to test the features himself. I'm sure he'd have signed safety wavers with RB.
Looking at events like RB Rampage, where there's similar features and arguably bigger coverage, and with previous life changing accidents at rampage, I'm sure RB and the Atherton's are far from amateur....
Looking at events like RB Rampage, where there’s similar features and arguably bigger coverage, and with previous life changing accidents at rampage, I’m sure RB and the Atherton’s are far from amateur….
Feel the same way about Rampage so this isn’t the compelling argument you might think it is. Look, if Matt and Gee and the gang want to chuck themselves off ridiculous stuff for the laughs and the views, I wouldn’t watch it, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But because it is an organised event with an insanely wealthy and well known brand backing it and publicising it, it should be subject to a higher level of scrutiny and safety. Baffled as to how anyone thinks otherwise.
But because it is an organised event with an insanely wealthy and well known brand backing it and publicising it, it should be subject to a higher level of scrutiny and safety. Baffled as to how anyone thinks otherwise.
This could be said about many events and sports, mountain biking is an 'extreme sport' and has risks at all levels, life changing injurys and deaths have happened at trail centres, Hardline and events like it are at the most extreme end of the sport.
As far as I’m aware only keyboard warriors have talked about a safety net…?
No it was either Matt, or BK in one of their videos.
Calender and other commitments – same as every other event
Sorry thats trollocks and smacks of amateur approach. If you are planning 'the hardest DH mtb event in the world' you should take H&S seriously and make sure you do build time in.
This is why they test. Smart for every other event – lips changed at darkest for example.
Yeah but the design of the ramp just looks wrong. Lots of key board warriors were saying so before it was ridden, and apparently their daft thoughts were backed up by someone who knows what hes talkiing about. Darkfest they tweaked, not rebuilt.
The chances of getting a week without wind at Hardline are next to nil. They were lucky on that day to get no wind, its been windy every day since. After seeing 1 crash, 1 barely make the landing on the left side, and 1 ending up on the right side, the chances of getting down the middle in windy conditionals dont look great on current probability.
This could be said about many events and sports, mountain biking is an ‘extreme sport’ and has risks at all levels, life changing injurys and deaths have happened at trail centres, Hardline and events like it are at the most extreme end of the sport.
Yes, it is an extreme sport, and because of that, every effort should be made to minimise risk in a high profile event such as hardline. Any remaining risk is a residual that can't be mitigated due to the nature of the sport.
I'm not sure a net would be of much use - the run in (from stationary) is smooth, long and pedal-free - its really unlikely that someone's going to slip a pedal, snap a chain, or something else that might result in them going over the lip at a pace where they'd land in the bottom - you'd have to be going barely over walking pace for that to happen.
the actual landing is significantly extended backwards so anyone going a bit less than full speed (ie a gust of wind or taking off squiff) will get to the landing - the guy who binned it landed 5m down the ramp, not right at the top, so there was no chance of him coming short.
What does appear to be an issue is landing to the left-hand-side of the landing, so maybe that should be built up a bit
My issue with this feature, apart from the fact that it looks poorly built to almost everyone who has ridden any jump ever, is that it's not really hard in the sense that it's just roll down the slope and hang on. Yes I know, "just". It's about pure risktaking appetite and not skill.
Just because something is inherently risky doesn't mean it can't be risk managed.
Johnny Walker, motorcycle enduroist rides hardline course.
If someone gets seriously injured will it be seen as an inevitable result of an extreme sport or would the organisers be retrospectively vilified online. As I suspect it would be the latter that suggests this is pushing things too far.
full marks to the social media team. they are doing a great job of generating interest in this
/blockquote>
Needs a panel of judges holding up 'artistic impression' scores, really. 🙂Even if the riders were happy after seeing that, isn't the real problem that, with normal Welsh weather in the next couple of weeks, it makes the event even more vulnerable to being called off if there is a bit of a breeze?
Should the Red Bull Hardline canyon gap have been allowed to happen?
This is an absolute shocker of a statement. Who the **** are you to decide what someone else does or doesn't do.
Is the Red Bull Hardline canyon gap in really bad taste
Or
Will you be boycotting Red bull/Hardline/Wales as a result of this jump being used
Or
Would you ...
But to actually state that you think it should be " not allowed to happen" is totally out of order. What would you to if someone else did this to whatever part of MTB you enjoy?
Oh well.
The fun police have won again.
Or maybe the fun medics?
TT comparison is not entirely on all fours as (even) I could get round the TT course on a moped. That canyon gap is all or nothing. Either clear it or have a grim outcome.
Looks like it has been binned anyway? Cynical side wonders of this was always the plan for marketing..
Holy **** some of you need a word with yourselves. The fanbois are real.
Either clear it or have a grim outcome.
Rumors for next years TT are that you have to do a 135mph average, those that don’t will be shot.
Brendog saying (@6.50) they won't be doing the canyon gap this year but it'll be back next...
Adam Brayton in his vid had BK saying it was his decision to say they needed a net, and that one could not be made quick enough
Brendog saying (@6.50) they won’t be doing the canyon gap this year but it’ll be back next…
Perfect that gives them 12 months to build a concrete ski jump in its place and put a bouncy castle in the bottom.
in all seriousness though, Ive have driven passed there when that waterfall has been in flood.You can guarantee that current structure would withstand a big rainfall, or I imagine high winds.
I would have allowed the canyon gap if it was built correctly. The height and distance obviously aren't a problem. People have gone bigger in the past and Jimbo proved you can even do it without a bike.
It's the stupid take off that's the problem. It's a rare case of the keyboard warriors being proved right but as soon as the first pictures appeared online people knew it wouldn't work.
I'm no expert, but I can imagine most of that jump being sort of predetermined:
"If we're going to do it, it needs to be *here*, and the landing needs to be *there*, and it needs to be a step-up because there's no space for a big landing so we need people landing slow.
So the run in needs to go from there to there. We need x metres for a gap that's worth all the bother and the loss of actual DH course, leaving y metres for flat bottom and run in.
Min. flat is z metres so the takeoff is going to have to be short and kicky or it means the gap's going to be too small to make the all scaffolding worth the bother."
And here we are.
OK so seeing as I got in early with "kicky" let's keep it running. Next year, they redo it with a reshaped takeoff but also a whole different landing, moved off to the right by 2-3 metres. (which needs the ramp reshaped but I'm not thinking they'll leave that up, anyway)
Double or nothing I'll say no nets, or no full width net anyway, instead they address that just by making the whole thing safer, so that riders can focus on definitely clearing it and not have to worry so much about clearing it wrong, ie with there being no space to overshoot or go left or right. It gets much safer as soon as you don't have to land in an area basically the size of my driveway
That Matt Jones video is gonna upset some "They shouldn't do that!" fannies. It's all bloody hard and bloody dangerous! 😂
Someone give Ronan Dunne a red Bull helmet, the kid can't keep drinking the stuff in every video
I'm not going to argue with or reply to anyone here but when I mentioned the Isle of Man TT it was in response to a suggestion that serious injuries/fatalities at this event will get future similar events banned. What has happened here is that Bernard Kerr has been asked to test some new parts of the track prior to the event taking place. He rode most of it and told the organisers/builders that parts of it weren't going to work and they needed more safety precautions than they had in place, therefore the features in question will not be used in the event. I see no problem with this approach but I agree the jump looked like an accident waiting to happen the way it was built
It’s the stupid take off that’s the problem. It’s a rare case of the keyboard warriors being proved right
Oh **** off with the keyboard warriors pish. People called it as dangerous and lo and behold, the riders agreed.
Could you imagine how that would go if someone's front wheel washed out? Or their bike gave up on the kicker?
I love how people are so quick to defend this shit when it's someone else's life in the balance. Extreme sport or not that doesn't give anyone a pass on risk assessments or reasonably practicable mitigtions. Nobody is asking for sanitised courses, just consideration for the riders wellbeing. And before you start with the "they know the risks" patter, people often need saving from themselves. You want to see what happens if someone dies in an official event in the UK? I guarantee you nobody will be holding anything whilst the aftermath rumbles through the courts and the increased insurance costs and admin kills off the stuff us mortals want to do. Look at what an empty cattle truck falling into a ditch did to DH racing.
It’s all bloody hard and bloody dangerous!
Quite an eye opener seeing the track that close up and how jagged those rocks are. Chin breakers indeed.
Oh **** off with the keyboard warriors pish. People called it as dangerous and lo and behold, the riders agreed.
Could you imagine how that would go if someone’s front wheel washed out? Or their bike gave up on the kicker?
In such a rush to post the asterisks you didn't take the time to realise I'm saying the same thing you are? People saw the pictures and called it out. Then the test rides backed it up. I'm glad they've canned it for now.
Quite an eye opener seeing the track that close up and how jagged those rocks are. Chin breakers indeed.
Everyone focuses on the big features, it's easy to miss the fact that all the ground in between the features is also absolutely horrendous.
In such a rush to post the asterisks you didn’t take the time to realise I’m saying the same thing you are? People saw the pictures and called it out. Then the test rides backed it up. I’m glad they’ve canned it for now.
@sharkattack apologies then, I misunderstood. I've been wading through far too many comments saying exactly what I thought you had.
bit alarmed by ratboy's greying hair in BK's latest LSD vid. I remember when he was a wee nipper riding Nannerch in Earthed 3. Also he seemed to be getting on with Gee?
anyway, its causing me existential angst
Now the hype of the canyon gap has faded we can sit back and watch the fun…the best riders in the world working out how to piece a full run of this beast of a course together.
I love the vlogs that show the conversations between the riders about each section and the lines.
Looking forward to more and the race on Sunday - weather looks sorted for the next few days.
It’ll be great to see them hitting that new top section, it looks vicious up close.
Looks like the women have hit the big classic road gap now which is pretty awesome. I reckon the canyon gap will be sorted for next year and pretty epic.. See if Brendan wants to flip it like his rampage canyon gap ha.
Someone give Ronan Dunne a red Bull helmet, the kid can’t keep drinking the stuff in every video
And then they did.
It’ll be great to see them hitting that new top section, it looks vicious up close.
Was nice to see them struggling with the top section, and having to work hard to get down it, never seen some of them ride so slow. However its incredible to see their fast progression from snails pace to almost race pace on it in a matter of hours.
He's not on the line up I've seen but Gee appears in muddy race gear on Gas to flat...
What percentage of the time are the wheels actually in contact with the ground for when riding like this?
I love Ronan Dunne's course previews/onboards, they're objectively absolutely awful because all you get is "oh jaysis... oh that was a bit... right we're coming up now on eh... ooof..." but it just works. You get a sense of difficulty and hecticness that's so often missing.
New practice run video on RBTV .. love the stuff with Tahnee psyching herself up for the road gap 😀
WTF:
Scroll down to 'Partners'. That just seems absurd.
Where did the money go?
How much?
I agree. It doesnt seem the best way of spending taxpayers money. Better this than some of the arts funding awarded
Question on Ronan getting the Red Bill helmet- how does that work? I'd assumed they get approached by RB, then negotiate a deal, but that Matt Jones vid seemed like he had no idea he was getting it. Or would they have have negotiated with his agent beforehand?
Its all negotiated and agreed up front, there has to be a signed deal on the off chance the rider doesn't want it. I cant imagine that happens very often but but the odd person might. Then the helmet sponsor provides the helmets to get painted up ready for the announcement
Ronan's been chugging (and mentioning) RB in every video hes been in for months. Look at his Hardline Tasmaniia interviews, the vids with Matt, etc.
I doubt he didnt know it was coming, he's certainly been very loudly asking for it. Delighted for him.
Yeah, I get that and I know he's been pushing for it, but does that mean the big reveal was just for the likes and shares?
Also well pleased for him, he's a likeable lad! As well as being insanely rapid
but does that mean the big reveal was just for the likes and shares?
Yes. It’s their version of announcing a new team rider
Big reveals usually are, his mum had told everyone in Ireland he was moving to Mondraker minths before it was announced 😁
Cycled up as a walk in today
It’s a much better spectator event than I imagined - walking up to the waterfall to watch them coming down the mountain and sending the big jumps then walking back down to the big screens to watch the final riders is great.