[Closed] Red light jumping or not ?

[quote=simmy ]moving away from lights just before they turn to green, ......would this be as frowned upon as just jumping the lights anyway ?
You need to ask?

Am not a 'road rider' although I do ride on roads, no problem with jumping red lights, self preservation and all that.

Everyone does it, try to worry less about what other people think. A check over your shoulder for fluorescent coloured cars before manouvering will suit.

no problem with jumping red lights, self preservation and all that.

Wait, what?

Everyone does it

No they don't.

By everyone I mean me.

depends on the lights and the time of day

At 6 in the morning i have no issues doing it outside work but always check for traffic during the day there isnt a chance i' even try around my way.its easier to filter to the front and get of the line with the traffic,use the space I need and ignore the cars that think I'm a pratt oncethings have got going isimply move to the side to let traffic pass.

I do.

At 6:30 am, with 1 km visibility in all directions, I'm not going to sit there waiting for the lights to change.

As noted last week; a Dutch traffic chappie said that people jumping red lights is an indication that the junction design is crap, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Traffic lights are for drivers who are in need of assistance to drive properly...

Darwin ?

I think it's ok for cars and trucks to try running lights just as they are turning to red, jees if they are lucky they might even miss the idiot cyclist who has set off before the lights have gone green.

So long as you're happy with it and feel you're doing it safely, crack on.

Go for it. Can'y say I'll have any sympathy if you get clobbered.

Please don't do it. It gives drivers another excuse to say we are law breaking idiots clearly unaware of their own kinds lawlessness.

Round here jumping a red green transition would be a death sentence. Round here red means stop after another 20 seconds. I have say at green lights watching a stream of cars still turning right across my path against a red light.

I genuinely don't get the reason for it. Though I accept I may just be lucky with the traffic lights on my commute. I just occupy the same space a car would, wait the same as a car and accelerate the same as a car. Always feels safe to me.
Last week I saw a cyclist filtered up the inside of three lanes of traffic, stop ahead of the stop line, jumped the lights before they changed then proceeded to veer across the three lanes of traffic as it all accelerated off. All he had to do was get in the right lane in the first place if he was concerned about his safety.

Don't be an AMBLER GAMBLER!

(in all honesty, sometimes i set up slightly before the lights change, but most of the time i don't)

Do not move till the light changes , riding a bike does not give you an exsuse to brake the law

RLJ'ing may be justifiable to yourself, I see the points and don't necessarily disagree, but on balance the arguments for it are pretty lame. Most drivers don't get it, don't care or even use it to justify their own poor attitude towards us. It reflects badly on all of us. It's inconsiderate for that reason, imo. Red lights are for 'traffic' - if you want to be taken seriously or given respect as legitimate traffic, stop at a red light.

I still haven't heard a convincing argument for jumping lights.

At 6:30 am, with 1 km visibility in all directions, I'm not going to sit there waiting for the lights to change.

Do not move till the light changes , riding a bike does not give you an exsuse to brake the law

This ^

I once jumped a red light to get onto one of the busiest roundabouts in Sheffield before the cars. There were no pedestrians anywhere near the crossing. The police officer coming behind on his motorbike didn't agree with the "self-preservation" excuse and I got a £15-£20 fine.

Lesson learned

Yeah, sure. As long as you are happy for other road users (cars, lorries, buses etc.) to do it then why not? One rule for all is the only way.

I come across lights that are on sensors and do not react to me in the early morning so I have no choice but to jump the lights!.Used to run reds all the time on the post bike we are allowed delivering Queenies Mail:-)

Looking at the lights and pre-empting the sequence means you aren't looking to see if some moron has ran the opposing red who will no doubt be bigger, heavier an moving quicker than you.

Please don't. First you could get killed, second it's a really bad example. Yep it's frustrating waiting for lights sometimes and they might be a crap design but it's what we have right now.

Hang on a minute. Loads of idignation here about how jumping red lights is illegal but there was a thread last week where riding on the pavement was condoned, nay encouraged, by all except me. Why is one form of law breaking worse than another?
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IMHO riding on the pavement is far worse than jumping the lights, the latter generally only endangers the rider, the former many other people.

The main reason that I don't is because it annoys the hell out of drivers, me included, and I don't drive much.
If I'm sat at the lights on my bike and you go through them on red, the car behind me with the annoyed driver in will have to get past me first. I don't want an irate driver trying to get past me.
By going through red lights you're putting all other cyclists in danger.
In a country with growth in cycling we need to do everything we can to make friends with other road users.
If people perceive that cyclists just go through red lights all the time, then that's what we all do. Perception is reality.

I think it's ok for cars and trucks to try running lights just as they are turning to red, jees if they are lucky they might even miss the idiot cyclist who has set off before the lights have gone green.

Let's remember here that many places have legalised turning left at red lights on a bicycle for the exact reasons the OP states (or right depending which side of the road they drive on). Other places are adopting advanced green lights to give cyclists a head start on the motor traffic, again for the exact same reason the OP states. The advanced stop lines that we're all used to are there for similar reasons.

Could it not be that the 'idiot cyclists' are onto something?

More than once I've had drivers try to turn left over the top of me at junctions when I was going straight on...

Hang on a minute. Loads of idignation here about how jumping red lights is illegal but there was a thread last week where riding on the pavement was condoned, nay encouraged, by all except me. Why is one form of law breaking worse than another?

Because you're in your rightful place, not holding anyone up. Obviously. 🙄

I just think of the interval training that red lights provide.

If car drivers get annoyed at bikes going through red lights that's their problem not mine. I think red lights should mean give way rather than stop for cyclists and so that's the rule I follow. If enough people feel a law isn't right it's a legitimate form of protest to break it en masse. I'm more than happy to just pay the £20 fine to any policeman that disagrees, but that has yet to happen in 1000s of red lights jumped which makes me think they take it about as seriously as I do

Could it not be that the 'idiot cyclists' are onto something?

possibly, but at the moment, they are not the rules. and it's not just about breaking the rules, it's about everybody understanding the rules. each group of road users needs to understand which rules to follow. if you want to change those rules, idly going through red lights because you can't be arsed stopping isn't the right way to go about it.

If car drivers get annoyed at bikes going through red lights that's their problem not mine

read my post. it's not just his problem, it's my problem too as a cyclist sharing the road with him, and it will be your problem when some car driver gets annoyed with you and does something they regret because you've agrieved them.
give me a good reason why you need to go through red lights.

possibly, but at the moment, they are not the rules. and it's not just about breaking the rules, it's about everybody understanding the rules. each group of road users needs to understand which rules to follow. if you want to change those rules, idly going through red lights because you can't be arsed stopping isn't the right way to go about it.

I'm more concerned with staying alive than keeping to a set of rules designed around a completely different form of transport.

..they're a set of rules designed around [u]all[/u] transport - to stop people crossing paths at 20+mph! But it's your call - your risk and all of our reputations.

..they're a set of rules designed around all transport - to stop people crossing paths at 20+mph! But it's your call - your risk and all of our reputations.

You've never crossed the road before the green man?

I've never noticed it before the weekend but twice in the last 3 days I've seen roadies (all the kit etc) not even slowing for lights - going through on reds where they've been going straight on (so not having to cross traffic, turn right etc).

Either way, they're doing themselves zero favours with other road users.

Let's remember here that many places have legalised turning left at red lights on a bicycle for the exact reasons the OP states (or right depending which side of the road they drive on). Other places are adopting advanced green lights to give cyclists a head start on the motor traffic, again for the exact same reason the OP states. The advanced stop lines that we're all used to are there for similar reasons.

Could it not be that the 'idiot cyclists' are onto something?

Part of the problem that the general public / car drivers have with cyclists is their perceived self-righteous / holier-than-thou attitude. Commuters especially are saving money, keeping fit and saving the environment compared to car drivers, who know this and find it faintly irritating. Add in some self-righteous tool that thinks the rules of the road don't apply and it just creates friction. And friction is no good for your self-preservation argument.

You've never crossed the road before the green man?

The law isn't an option you know? And who's to guarantee that every time you run a red light, you've spotted all the hazards? In the last 3 weeks I've seen 2 cyclist run red lights and nearly get killed by traffic coming through on a green and not expecting anyone to be there.

How do you think your friends and family will feel standing around at your funeral or hospital bedside, either getting yourself killed or nearly killed for the sake of a few seconds.

Or the legal bill if you cause an accident...

And thanks for giving the haters the ammunition to justify their prejudices. Yes, thanks very much for that one... makes my riding just that little more likely to end in an ambulance

I'm in the no [b]crossing[/b] junctions when on red camp but I'm in the clip in a few seconds early (assuming you know the sequence) and slowly trackstand/ roll forwards a yard or two over the line, ahead of the cars, ready to do a Chris Hoy at the first flicker of green camp.

Let's remember here that many places have legalised turning left at red lights on a bicycle for the exact reasons the OP states

In the UK? We are talking about the UK right?

IMHO riding on the pavement is far worse than jumping the lights, the latter generally only endangers the rider, the former many other people.

If you are riding on the pavement like a knob going for your own KOM then yes, I couldn't agree more. Considerate riding on a wide pavement where riding on the road could present risk to the rider or indeed endanger life is another kettle of lobsters.

#edit:

And thanks for giving the haters the ammunition to justify their prejudices. Yes, thanks very much for that one... makes my riding just that little more likely to end in an ambulance

This.

I watch the sequence, wait for the stream of cars the other way to stop jumping the red then turn right across two lanes of traffic using the rljing cars as a shield.

I definitely cross the junction on green but the pedestrians get a shock as they're waiting to cross after the last rljing car from the other direction!

The law isn't an option you know?

Well then, someone needs to get this message out there. Because every morning on my drive to work [i]everyone[/i] seems to be travelling at 45mph in 30 zones. They even flash each other to warn when speed cameras are out. They endorse each others criminality.

But it's OK to criticise because a cyclist bends the rules for their own safety (which is what the original post is about)?

Give over.

Because every morning on my drive to work everyone seems to be travelling at 45mph in 30 zones.

I'm not seeing this so much any more. It's my perception that your average driver is getting closer to following the urban speed limit rules these days. Still the usual one off tools but the general motorists are better at speed control than 20 years ago.

And the average RLJing cyclist has come from the same mould as the speeding motorist (after all we are all people first and foremost) - it's nothing to do with safety and everything to do with not being arsed with slowing down and speeding up!

And thanks for giving the haters the ammunition to justify their prejudices. Yes, thanks very much for that one... makes my riding just that little more likely to end in an ambulance

What a load of shite.

Just don't get the safety thing myself, as someone who does a lot of road riding, often in London.

If you want to do it you carry on, don't try and justify it though. Everyone thinks you're a dick, and I'll have no sympathy when you get taken out by a car.

you could always bunny hop onto the pavement when approaching lights and they turn to red, burn on, and then use a curb drop and rise to bunny hop back onto the road after the lights without losing speed, yeeehaaaaaa. Love it when you get it right.

The police officer coming behind on his motorbike didn't agree with the "self-preservation" excuse and I got a £15-£20 fine.

Nice of him to give you an option. Hoped you went for the £15er 😉

I ride in a way that i consider safe and efficient (mostly footpaths with the odd bit of road). Reading some of these comments, i think some of you would have a tutting fit if you saw me ride my bike. Not that i give a stuff 😀

Love it when you get it right.

What happens when you get it wrong? Hit a pedestrian? Hit some railings? 😕

Yeehaa, sounds awsums!

Glitchy bump.

You missed out 'disabled orphans' drama queen!

You shouldn't berate those that have the spacial awareness and skills to ride with fluidity in traffic, just because you lack them.

I'm a reformed RLJ. I used to do it all the time in London.
Contrary to how some people perceive it I didn't just wait for lights to change in all directions then go. I'm a car driver too and there's something about cycling a route regularly compared to driving that makes you learn things more.
In London on a lot of lights there was nearly always a magic spot where it was red for everyone including Peds. That was when I went. Still looking and listening all the time. Eyes and head and ears swiveling all the time. Time saving/laziness was the real reason to do it but I'd also try to use self preservation excuse also. Then the cycling boom started kicking in with the congestion charge and obvious noobs started getting to do if for themselves but with near misses making me cringe. I near enough stopped doing it overnight.
I never never ran ped crossings with peeps on or waiting ... And this is what really gets my goat now.
Now I unfortunately have to drive a car everyday through a town centre as part of my (25 mile each way) commute I've learnt that for the most part the cyclists that get to the front and start before the main traffic often then have to suffer all manner of close and stupid attempts for the cars to get back past them further up the road. When I'm cycling lights I now purposefully try and hang back to let the drag racers bang on ahead.

As someone touched on above I've driven in the USA quite a bit and over there you can turn right on a red. I occasionally do the equivalent here if on a bike.

You shouldn't berate those that have the spacial awareness and skills to ride with fluidity in traffic, just because you lack them.

That does make you sound like a cock of quite a special kind.

I think a quick read of this thread and the vast range of opinions even among the cycling fraternity shows why no progress of note will ever be made - as a 'community' we are unable to be united in what we want or how we think we should behave so I've no idea how we win over the sceptics and change government attitudes to cyclists.

Further point being it's all very well being ahead of the traffic but if the actual infrastructure of the road up ahead can't cope with it ... Probably more a smaller town thing ... There may not be much point to the self preservation excuse.
Every set of lights will have a different environment and provide more or less advantage to any perceived gains

[i]At 6:30 am, with 1 km visibility in all directions, I'm not going to sit there waiting for the lights to change.[/i]

Would you sit there waiting for the lights to change if you were in a car?

usually when I rlj I like to have my earphones playing christian hyms so loud that I cannot hear anything but the beautiful choir and organ. I never look around me but down at the floor piously and quite often I wear a balaclava which resticts my vision. One time I had to take a call from my vicar asking me to organise a carboot sale at the church after mass, lots of drivers let me know that they thought I was doing a good job by tooting their horns and waving with their fists, may God bless them. I also like to cycle really slow, meandering and swerving into the road. The good lord has protected me thus far. Praise be!

And thanks for giving the haters the ammunition to justify their prejudices. Yes, thanks very much for that one... makes my riding just that little more likely to end in an ambulance

.

What a load of shite.

I don't mind you disagreeing can you be a little more constructive? Are you saying there's no harm coming to cyclists in the UK, cos I can send you a fair few links which show otherwise...

The notion that we shouldn't jump lights because it sets a bad example is a red herring. Where I live, motorists routinely jump the lights on the pedestrian crossing I use when taking my baby daughter to the park. Are you seriously suggesting that motorists are putting a baby's life in danger because they'd seen a cyclist go through a red earlier that day? Get real.

Having said all of that, I don't rlj because there's no need to either from a safety or time point of view.

I don't mind you disagreeing can you be a little more constructive?

When people take such hysterical stances, there is little point.

Are you saying there's no harm coming to cyclists in the UK, cos I can send you a fair few links which show otherwise..

See above.

The notion that we shouldn't jump lights because it sets a bad example is a red herring. Where I live, motorists routinely jump the lights on the pedestrian crossing I use when taking my baby daughter to the park. Are you seriously suggesting that motorists are putting a baby's life in danger because they'd seen a cyclist go through a red earlier that day? Get real.

No - I don't think anybody is saying that. It's not that simplistic.

The argument is that some motorists see cyclists behaving in ways that they deem inappropriate (RLJing, hopping onto the pavement when it suits them, 'filtering' dangerously and generally weaving around like a banshee) and their level of respect for us (clumping us all together as a collective) as fellow legitimate road users is diminished. Then, consciously or subconsciously, when they encounter other cyclists they are less considerate giving us less space, cutting us up etc etc.

I would hope there are plenty of drivers who are intelligent and mature enough not to think of us as a collective but as individuals some of whom are bellends and not 'punish' us all for the behaviour of a few - but I would hazard a guess their are a fair few unable to make that leap of logic and without the requisite number of neurons to realise the consequences of 'punishing' a vulnerable cyclist with a large lump of metal. I'm not saying they should behave as they do but enraging them is not helping anyone and imo a bit selfish.

I do.

At 6:30 am, with 1 km visibility in all directions, I'm not going to sit there waiting for the lights to change.

+1
If the lights are even triggered by my plastic bike.

The argument is that some motorists see cyclists behaving in ways that they deem inappropriate (RLJing, hopping onto the pavement when it suits them, 'filtering' dangerously and generally weaving around like a banshee) and their level of respect for us (clumping us all together as a collective) as fellow legitimate road users is diminished. Then, consciously or subconsciously, when they encounter other cyclists they are less considerate giving us less space, cutting us up etc etc.

See, I think that's untrue. First, because motorists always have routinely broken the law themselves, and second, because we could all be the models of law-abiding perfection, and they would demonise us for another reason - "road tax" probably.

there's a time and a place.

roughly: if anyone can see [s]you[/s]* me, no.

(*don't let me tell you what to do)

Smell_it

You're right, there is a degree of hysteria but it doesn't diminish the observation that there's some seriously anti-cycling sentiment out there:

[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3600928.ece ]The Times[/url]

This is scary stuff...

Apparent acts of aggression are recorded every day on the internet. One cyclist tweeted: “This morning I witness a man lean out of a van and push a (female) cyclist off her bike. 10 secs later was dragged out of van by a policeman.”

The Twitter feed identified by Mr King records daily threats. Stuart Burge tweeted: “Cyclists do my head In when they stick out in the road. I WILL run you over if you don’t move.”

Another, Joe Cross, wrote: “Cyclist should not be allowed on the road #iwillrunyoudown”

Lora Davis tweeted: “Cyclists are wers! Unless you have a death wish get off the fing road at rush hour #muppets”

This is not hysteria:

Official figures published in the summer showed the first increase in the number of deaths on the roads for eight years in 2011 and sharp increases in the numbers of pedestrians killed and cyclists seriously injured in Britain.

another reason not to live in London.

First, because motorists always have routinely broken the law themselves,

Their own behaviour is imo irrelevant to their conscious or subconscious opinion of us.

second, because we could all be the models of law-abiding perfection, and they would demonise us for another reason - "road tax" probably.

Who knows, maybe.

Let's get one thing clear here - this is not some sort of moral battle of legal niceties. This is not a competition to determine the betterist road user groups. It's about attempting to prevent incidents in which cyclist will always, always come off worse physically. I don't give a toss who is 'right' or 'wrong' - just a firm believer that the more considerate cars/van/lorry drivers are to cyclists the less chance there is of being squashed. One way of making them dislike us less (words chosen carefully!) is by being perceived by the sun reading demographic as being not such a bunch of arseholes. It's almost irrelevant if their opinion is justified or not.

another reason not to live in London.

Goes with the other 10000000000000000000000000 reasons not to...

I've been commuting by bike for 25 years; we were second class road users when I started and we are second class road users still. I've dodged and weaved around 4 or 5 major town planning led re-designs which I had to negotiate to get to work over that time.

Every single one has made my journey more difficult because every single one has been planned and constructed with no thought ever given to cyclists. I've watched communities get chopped in half so we can have a big dual carriageway to process traffic ever more quickly, I've seen supermarkets built with 3 acre carparks that pedestrians who live 100 yards away have to walk 500 yards over bridges or under subways then across the car park to use.

My town has a lovely big by-pass, 50 mph, dual lanes that has been reconstructed twice but still has no access or thought for cyclists. It cuts off a third of the towns population, but does reduce the time it takes to commute by car by at least 5 minutes.

They've just built a Metro from Manchester and redesigned the junction it crosses... It's 2013... There is no provision at all for cycling.

You want me to wait at a red light at 6 am so people will like cyclists?

another reason not to live in London.

I don't think this is anything to do with London. That idiot girl the other week, and the guy in the BMW running people off the road, were not in London.

This is a problem with the attitude to car use endemic in the UK. Fostered partly by the Daily Mail (war on motorist) and partly by Clarkson et al. Attitude on the continent is just different.

Their own behaviour is imo irrelevant to their conscious or subconscious opinion of us.

Lawbreakers condemn lawbreaking? It's relevant because it's self-justification.

One way of making them dislike us less (words chosen carefully!) is by being perceived by the sun reading demographic as being not such a bunch of arseholes. It's almost irrelevant if their opinion is justified or not.

But as I've already said, I think our behaviour has little to no impact on how we're perceived. There is a significant minority who believe we shouldn't be on the roads, and will justify it to themselves through the most contorted logic. As crikey suggests, they won't like us any more if everyone behaves perfectly.

Lawbreakers condemn lawbreaking?

Yep, they do - welcome to the real world! You have never been in a prison have you?

But as I've already said, I think our behaviour has little to no impact on how we're perceived.

As crikey suggests, they won't like us any more if everyone behaves perfectly.

As I already said, I disagree with you and believe our opinion is naive 😉

But this a debate between cyclists and therefore largely irrelevant!

I've noticed no difference in the general levels of hostility towards me whether I prioritise my own safety or whether I ride like a considerate, ROSPA certified, Sun-reader appeasing saint. Whichever way I behave I am a second class citizen considered beneath the contempt of many, despite my motoring qualifications and my road tax payments.

It is feasible that RLJing can increase one's own safety and that it can also facilitate the progress of others. To get a clear road ahead of traffic at an impending pinch point, for instance, achieves both.

The traffic systems in the UK are primarily designed around managing high volumes of motorised traffic that is measured in car sized units. If you operate outside of this base measurement, the systems built upon them do not have your interests at their core.

In response to the increased traffic flow created by housing developments, over the past 10 years traffic lights have been added at a junction near where I live that was previously a 'give way' junction. I, along with my fellow road users of every kind, managed to navigate this junction safely for years before bulbs were employed to dish out safety in alternate sequence.

With no other traffic in sight today I could navigate this junction in the same alert, cautionary manor as I did for years. But because there now happens to be a bulb glowing behind a red lens, by some I would be considered a suicidal idiot were I to do so.

Between 0700 and 0900 Monday to Friday, these lights manage the heavy traffic flow of rush hour to ensure alternate priorities for two competing queues of traffic. These competing queues do not exist outside this brief daily period, yet the lights operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

And hey, that's the law. A red light is a red light. Your common sense is worthless. Legality and safety are mutually inclusive always. Red lights are for your own safety. Ask no questions, citizen. The way to create a better future in any aspect of life certainly wouldn't be to question the way things are. Oh no. Those who blindly accept the status quo are those best tasked with steering our society. Amen.

Motorists hate RLJers because somebody feels somebody else is getting away with something they can’t. For this same reason those on benefits have been successfully demonised, even among themselves. It is in our nature to so resent those we perceive as getting away with something we aren’t. This nature, like many darker aspects of human nature, is amplified by the well documented and universally accepted dehumanising effects brought on by being behind the wheel of a motor car. Appeasing those filled with this misplaced anger is the only valid point I’ve yet managed to find that comprehensively validates the simplistic, black and white argument that red=stop, green=go, anything else=wrong.

And as solutions go, that is like applying a sticking plaster to the knife you keep getting stabbed with.

Yep, they do - welcome to the real world! You have never been in a prison have you?

Yes, that was my point - any scrap of justification will do, however illogical or hypocritical.

As I already said, I disagree with you and believe our opinion is naive

But this a debate between cyclists and therefore largely irrelevant!

What is naive is to assume that being the model of good behaviour will make the slightest difference to motorists' attitudes to us. I'm under no such illusion.

As I said before, I choose to not rlj because it's mostly pointless and the safety argument is bunk. But I use a small stretch of pavement when towing the baby trailer, because it avoids having to make two right turns onto and off a busy road. I don't feel in anyway bad about doing so.

simons_nicolai-uk - Member

I don't think this is anything to do with London. That idiot girl the other week, and the guy in the BMW running people off the road, were not in London.

This is a problem with the attitude to car use endemic in the UK. Fostered partly by the Daily Mail (war on motorist) and partly by Clarkson et al. Attitude on the continent is just different.

even here, in the halls of STW, lots of people are of the opinion that the uk is doing well in terms of road safety, as we *only* kill 1800 people every year - well done us!

Yes, that was my point - any scrap of justification will do, however illogical or hypocritical.

No, the point you made previously was that because motorists regularly break the law, their perception of us will not alter because they watch cyclists break the law. This is imo opinion rubbish. I contend that motorists, like any other group will not think "well, I was just doing 45 in a 30 back there, so this little oik running the lights is reasonable tit for tat". It's a well understood behaviour theory (forget the name for now) that we disregard our own misdemeanour's when judging others.

What is naive is to assume that being the model of good behaviour will make the slightest difference to motorists' attitudes to us.

I'll spin that around - why do you feel that poor behaviour (as determined by the observer- whether it is or not is immaterial - it's their perception that counts) would not effect effect their attitudes? That's what I find naive.

Got to go now (work to do), but I think I've put my position across as best as I can so to go round and around from here would be pointless. Your opinion clearly differs and that's all good 🙂

No, the point you made previously was that because motorist regularly break the law, their perception of us will not alter because they watch cyclist break the law. This is imo opinion rubbish. I contend that motorist, like any other group will not think "well, I was just doing 45 in a 30 back there, so this little oik running the lights is reasonable tit for tat". It's a well understood behaviour theory (forget the name for now) that we disregard our own misdemeanour's when judging others.

No, the point I made previously was that a) our behaviour is immaterial to how motorists behave and b) they will not be any more accommodating if we're all suddenly perfect citizens. If it's not rljing then it's road tax. Any excuse will do - the truth is that many simply don't want us on the road.

I'll spin that around - why do you feel that poor behaviour (as determined by the observer- whether it is or not is immaterial - it's their perception that counts) would not effect effect their attitudes? That's what I find naive.

So you'd like me to prove a negative? As I've already said, we hear enough nonsense about "road tax" to draw some conclusions about motorists' attitudes. It's naive to think otherwise.

What's good is that in spite of their attitude, a look round any major city at rush hour shows that we're winning.

You lot sound like Clarksonites bickering about speed limits.

You shouldn't berate those that have the spacial awareness and skills to ride with fluidity in traffic, just because you lack them.

That does make you sound like a cock of quite a special kind.

It is a skill though, however cockish it sounds to say. I was educated in coping with traffic by a Londoner I used to ride with, when I got there I'd stop @ every red light clear view/empty road or not.

When I left, working as a courier on my DJ with slicks, I'd go hours without stopping for anything, merging with traffic, undertaking, overtaking, burning off faster than cars riding on the pavement, riding the wrong way down streets and hucking steps.

I got stopped twice, once in Oxford Circus - PCSO stepped out in front of me on my way to work and flagged me down - no comeback

Once on Horseguards Parade - went around a Red light without even noticing, pulled onto thew pavement thinking about stopping and then dropped back on to the road. Cue a "Blip Blip" and me stopping. Again no charge [Which is good 'cos I was holding a spliff I'd not yet lit and I bet at that address I'd have been charged for something]

I've never crashed into anyone, I've never caused an accident, and I've never been hurt by any of the above.

However, once I turned right on the A21, fell on in a patch of Diesel and was hit dead on by a bus flying down the road. You never can tell...

I'm not saying I condone breaking the law, and I'll bet that with all those smart-ass moves listed above I pissed a LOT of people off - but I will say there's a real skill in moving [i]through[/i] London traffic, and if you get good, you are nearly in another plane.

The fact remains that other than those small instances where traffic lights will not change because they need a car to activate them, there is no valid reason to jump the reds. The reason you jump them is because you want to, and that isn't reason enough.

jackthedog - great post.

The fact remains that other than those small instances where traffic lights will not change because they need a car to activate them, there is no valid reason to jump the reds. The reason you jump them is because you want to, and that isn't reason enough.

+1

I have genuinely never needed too,

I feel i can't get on my high horse about road safety if I ignore the rules of the road.