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Now that I have finished building my new Vaya and bought some bikepacking bags I’m gathering up gear to get out. Now as the cost of the bike and kit is mounting up I want to spend as little as possible on a good warm sleeping bag to use with a bivvy and tarp , I intend to spend no more than £70-£80 so recommendations please
Hmm, for that money I'd just head into Decathlon/Go-Outdoors/Cotswold/etc. and get a reasonable 2 season synthetic bag. (I say that despite much preferring down) If things get a bit nippy you can always wear a jacket to improve the rating.
Something like this https://www.ultimateoutdoors.com/equipment/264712-berghaus-intrepid-1000-light-green.html I've no idea on what it's like, it's just an example I happened to find.
The main downsides to synthetic bags are that their warmth to weight ratio is lower than an equivalent down bag (especially when you look at the higher fill power down bags) and they don't pack as small. The main benefits are cost and a better tolerance of water. The latter point isn't something I've ever had a problem with TBH, modern materials keep incidental damp off the down and even spilling a drink onto the bag isn't really a problem providing you don't let the fluid sit there and begin to soak through the stitching.
Cheers Whitestone I think in an earlier thread you recommended an insulated sleep mat which I’m going to get, that should alleviate heat loss into the ground so I should be ok with a reasonable quality synthetic sleeping bag?
i saw a varying array of snugpak ones online but not sure what they are like.
Snugpak sleeping bags are good, price likely has crept up past few years since I last bought one. Mountain Hardwear also do a budget friendly bag - Lamina - if you can track down one still discounted and in stock.
Also worth looking at the Alpkit synthetic bags (you might even find a deal on one of their down bags).
Without knowing how warm or cold you sleep it's always hard to say what is suitable. Alpkit have a sale on at the moment, there's a couple of synthetic bags in there.
Cheers, liking the look and reviews of this one
I'm pretty well equipped for camping in general but my first tentative steps towards bikepacking rather than touring seem to be telling me that a lot of the bikepacking bags have very little volume. I suspect I'm going to have to buy all new kit 🙂 much lighter stuff with a smaller pack size.
I just got a naturehike mat and I'm looking at aegismax sleeping bags/quilts
The Berghaus bag referenced above is £45 in Blacks at the moment.
https://www.blacks.co.uk/equipment/264712-berghaus-intrepid-1000-light-green.html
Ive just ordered one 👍
@sweepy - Since you are the "motor" it makes sense to take as little as possible and to make that kit do as much as possible.
This article gives some philosophy behind taking less sh!t. You should look at what you need to take for a trip not what you want to take. Just because you have the kit doesn't mean you should take it with you.
In touring mode in summer I'll probably have under 20 litres of space. If you apply the "light, compact, cheap - pick two" philosophy then "cheap" goes out the window. Stuff doesn't have to be expensive but if you have to keep to 20 litres (as an example) then a cheap but bulky item means that something gets left behind.
Sometimes changing tack can make a difference: I used to be a fan of sleeping bags but when looking for a three season bag the discussion led me to getting a two season quilt, layering that over my expensive two season sleeping bag gives me a system that is good for just about any temperature you'll encounter in the UK. (It struggled the other week at -7C). The quilt is the same temperature rating as the Berghaus bag I linked to earlier but it weighs just 365g and packs down to about 2 litres. The cost? £120. I actually use it in preference to the bag and in the two years that I've had it I've used it nearly 50 times so not a huge per night cost.
I've done similar in going from tents to tarps. That's not to say I never use a tent but I now prefer a tarp.
My full race bivy kit (tarp, pole, pegs, bivy bag, sleeping mat and quilt) weighs just 900g and takes up about 5 litres of space. The total cost is Eeeek! If I'm doing a race where I'm only going to be napping for an hour or two then I'll just have a bivy bag and a lightweight down jacket, total weight is under 400g. Swap to touring mode, I'll use more robust gear and a better sleeping pad and the weight goes up to around 1500g.
IMO, the 3 most important items for bikepacking are shelter, sleepingbag/quilt and sleeping mat, and IF you skimp on them things then you can't be complaining when your uncomfortable later 😉
Looked at the intrepid 1000 review on YouTube then saw the review for the intrepid 300 which has a lower comfort rating as I know nothing on the technicalities of sleeping bags what should I be looking for ( my bikepacking will be in the Mourne Mountains)
See this about sleeping bag ratings https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/expert-advice/sleeping-bag-guide/ basically a bag rated to 5C is warmer than one rated to 9C
Damn lightbulb moments!!!
Just realised I’ve not considered pack size or weight. As I have to load this up onto my handlebars
Our local Aldi seem to have this at £30 in a sale now; no temperatures quoted though, but certainly packs down small...
https://www.aldi.co.uk/crane-down-filled-sleeping-bag/p/081656189838300
@whitestone what quilt did you go for? I'm looking at the Alpkit cloud cover and the Mountain Equipment helium quilt. With those weights I'm wondering if you've got a PHD quilt? Eek.
The PHD sale is on just now. More expensive but top quality gear. Two bikepacking style bags. The Minim 200 at 430g for +6 C £219 and the Minim 350 at 630g rated -2C £275.
If you are a non standard size there is the bonus of short/long or slim/wide sizes and the choice of no zip or short or long zips..
At 6ft3 my long wide Minim bags are the only ones I have where fit isn't slightly compromised.
https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minim-350
@shedbrewed - I've got a Cumulus 150, for quality and price it's hard to see past them TBH - I bought my wife the 350 version. It used to be that you had to buy Cumulus quilts from the EU as while they have a UK distributor for their bags (rebranded as Criterion) they wouldn't sell direct to the UK but bizarrely they will do custom bags/quilts direct. I'm 1m80 (5'11") tall and I'm at the upper limit for the standard length but a few people have had longer ones made. Backcountry.scot https://backcountry.scot/product-category/packs-shelters-and-sleeping-bags/cumulus/ now sell the quilts so getting the standard models is a bit simpler. I keep hankering after an Enlightened Equipment quilt but by the time I've paid, shipping from the States, duty and VAT they end up very expensive and until you go to the silly temp rated versions not markedly better than the Cumulus equivalents.
PHD don't do technical quilts, don't know why, the quilts they sell are more like something you'd put on your bed, i.e. a comforter - the expensive summer bag I mentioned is a PHD Minim that they only seem to do during their sales as a special. I like PHD stuff but it's hard to justify the cost despite it being top quality.
The Alpkit Cloud Cover is a bit strange, doesn't really seem to be one thing or another, I've been told it's a bit awkward to create a footbox with it. It's also gone up quite a bit in price since they introduced it. I've not come across the ME Helium before so can't comment on that.
For general 2-3 season use for a mid temp range sleeper I'd go for the Cumulus 250, yes it's £170 but if you get something good quality that will last, something that synthetic bags/quilts haven't sorted yet.
Sorry, bit of a ramble there 🙂
@irc Ah, was wondering when the spring sale would start - more drooling!
I bought this
https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minim-200
about three years ago, it was £175 back then so like the Alpkit down stuff prices have gone up quite a bit.
One point to note is that all the EN 13537 ratings (Lower limit, Comfort, extreme) assume that you are wearing a thin base layer and not naked!
I’ve got the Starlight iii listed above. It’s very warm and bulky. I only use it in winter. The Starlight ii is more suitable for my preferences.
Best not very much money I ever spent on bivvy kit:
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/air-basic-pillow-grey-id_8055369.html
I've got a Minimum 200, long/wide. Used it last year touring in USA. Usable though not comfortable below freezing wearing a thick fleece.
I'd say the +6c rating is conservative. Though everyone is different.
Also have a Minimum 300 and just ordered a Minimum 350 as a 30th birthday present for my son. So you could say I'm a fan.
If standard size bags fitted me I might find it harder to justify the cost but getting top gear and a custom size it seems pricey but worth it.
I've been to 0/+1C with my Minim 200 and was right at the limit for me. Late October on top of Fleet Moss in the Dales can be nippy! That was one reason I got a decent sleeping mat and began looking for a warmer bag but eventually ended up getting the Cumulus 150 quilt as a wrapper. Overall cost and weight is about the same as the equivalent PHD bag but in summer I can use the quilt and my wife the bag so we get more use out of the kit.
Definitely a fan of PHD kit but it's stuff I'll buy when I've can see me using it lots of times. For occasional use I'll look at Alpkit or similar - our main down jackets are from Alpkit for example. My wife's also got an Alpkit Filoment down jacket while I've a PHD Summerline jacket (bought in a sale) which is a rough equivalent, when you see/use them side by side then the difference is obvious. Only £20 difference in price as well.
@whitestone Ok, thanks. I use an ME Titan 425 XL bag on top of an Exped SynMat which has been pretty good. Pack size and warmth are so much better than the Snugpak Elite3 that I used previously.
I was looking at the quilts for small-pack additional warmth with then the potential to use the quilt for my little boy for summer camping. I'll have a look at Cumulus, thanks.
I treated myself to a PHD Minimus vest a couple of years back. Really is exceptional but I also use it enough to make it worthwhile in my mind at least 😄
Poundland inflatable camping pillow. Surprisingly, it costs a pound. It also weighs nothing and is much better than it has any right to be.
Criterion quantum bags are lovely and pack to nothing and about 450g. Nordisk telemark tent fits into a small revelate tangle. Inflatable pillow and sea to summit mat. Nothings cheap. If you want cheap get a rear rack and panniers for extra space.
I n r a t s
Lotsa bargains second hand.
Sleeping gear should be the last place to compromise. Fancy bike the first!
The main downsides to synthetic bags are that their warmth to weight ratio is lower than an equivalent down bag (especially when you look at the higher fill power down bags) and they don’t pack as small. The main benefits are cost and a better tolerance of water.
Check out the following; synthetic not far behind...
https://www.mountainhardwear.com/hyperlamina-spark-35f-1c-sleeping-bag-1568251.html
A 0C synthetic bag for 900g with all the benefits of synthetic. I own this bag and got from Wiggle for 90 quid. A steal! I've taken it half way around the world and it feels like new. True, the best 800 fill with treated down are still unrivalled but you're paying for them - easily 350 quid and beyond.
I bought a Mountain Hardware -16c bag using the same technology which weighs about 1600g and packs reasonably down. Cost 170 quid which was good value compared to the 4 season down bags (similar weight but not as packable).
That's almost twice the weight and twice the pack volume of the zero rated Cumulus 250
http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/uk/categories/sleeping-systems/quilt-250?gid=53&vid=7
It is half the price though.
For all of those who use down bags, how easy is it to care for them? I only have synthetic ones. I find they need washing at least once a year, even when used with a liner etc. Do people wash their down ones?
Slight high jack, does anyone know where you can buy some permaloft or similar insulation by the meter / cube / whatever. I have a myog idea but can't seem to find insulation on my usual eBay search
Some interesting reading and opinions which have thrown many spanner’s in the works! I started off thinking that this could be sorted out reasonably cheaply but interestingly it seems that buying cheap can be a false economy and as quoted earlier I now agree that shelter and sleep kit is something that shouldn’t be skimped on but tbh I don’t want to spend a fortune on a first set up. So a middle of the road reasonably priced happy medium is where I need to be
I can certainly recommend the MH Lamina range of bags as a good compromise of weight/bulk/cost. I have a 35 and a 0. Both have seen extensive use in Scotland and I can't fault them.
However, I've actually switched back to down. I already had a couple of decent down bags and had avoided using them for bikepacking due to concerns over getting them wet and/or dirty. I've opted to use a silk liner to help with cleanliness and additional caution to deal with dampness.
@fudge9202 - if you are just starting out then a synthetic's fine. If you decide to keep on bikepacking then you can get a better bag later. The synthetic bag can still be used for dossing on mates' floors, festivals, etc. I've an ancient Snugpack sleeping bag for this. Might be worth asking on the Bearbones Classified forum if anyone's selling something on (there's a few of us who frequent both houses - Scotroutes and myself included).
@UrbanHiker - Taking care of down bags isn't that hard really. Wearing thermals to stop sweat/body oils getting onto the inner goes a long way to keeping them decent as does storing them as loosely as possible. If the inner shell does get a bit dirty then a wipe down with a damp soapy cloth and leave to dry will deal with most situations. If you are sweating when in the bag then it's too warm for the conditions (EN 13537 specifies an upper comfort limit as well as the lower one) so either unzip and vent the bag or pull the bag down to let you cool off. I've yet to feel the need to fully wash a down bag.
Using down kit "in the field" isn't the nightmare it's made out to be. You don't have to treat it like it's hydroscopic and will immediately drain the nearest tarn, you just have to take reasonable care not to get it immersed/soaked. The materials used for the shell while not "waterproof" do have some water resistance so providing you don't let the bag lie in water or allow spills to sit on it you only have to deal with spray if you are using a tarp or condensation if you are using a bivy bag. I've found stopping and spreading the bag out if you get half an hour of sunshine deals with this - preferably if there's a cafe stop involved at the same time 🙂
Slight aside: In the 1980s Eastern European climbers began doing some amazing ascents in the Himalaya. One of the tactics they used was stopping in the middle of the day to have their main meal and to dry out all their bivy kit. Their reasoning was that they'd get better fuel efficiency from their stove because of the effect of the sun and not having to cook at night as well as digging the snow hole to bivy in. If the sleeping bags got damp wet from snow or snow melt then they'd dry out whilst they were having lunch. They'd looked at the then standard Western practice of climbing all the daylight hours but then struggling with down kit getting damper and damper as the climb went on and thought of a way around it.
Cheers Whitestone, advice greatly appreciated as always! I will take your recommendation for the exped insulated sleeping mat and a decent synthetic bag with a bivvy and tarp.
For all of those who use down bags, how easy is it to care for them? I only have synthetic ones. I find they need washing at least once a year, even when used with a liner etc. Do people wash their down ones?
Yes, but possibly not as often as I should!! It wasn't that hard, washed it in the bath, I just made sure I was careful when handling it when it was wet so that that the baffles didn't tear. I dried it on the washing line.
@fudge9202 - the Exped mats are now quite expensive but then I realised that they now supply the Schnozzle inflator bag with the Synmats, they only used to ship it with the Downmats. The Schnozzle (love that word!) is worth it because it avoids getting moisture from your breath into the mat when inflating it.
A word of warning about the Exped mats - they use RF welding to form the baffles, if you put too much stress on them they peel undone. What I do to avoid this is inflate the mat fully then let a little air out, maybe a couple of seconds with the valve open. This then allows the air inside to move around when you kneel or sit on it. Even so, don't jump around on it like it's a bouncy castle!