[Closed] Recommend me an audaxish n+1

Newer version of....

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Ticks all the boxes.

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/the-condor-has-landed ]Thread closed[/url]

Actually 10kg, built for comfort not speed. Like the owner.

Probably ticks all your boxes, although I think the weight and the looks could be improved.

Shand cycles are just down the road from you though....

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Diverge looks nice, whats the story with fitting guards?
Condor not my cup of tea - dislike the look of tall skinny headtubes.

Will take Spesh guards easily, and others with a little work. Have seen one with PDW, looked good!

Spesh ones are very, very tidy, and sturdy too. Front is a little short, recommended with a Brooks flap.

Condor not my cup of tea - dislike the look of tall skinny headtubes.

Yeh, it does have the five-bar look

Alloy or carbon is probably the way to go

Nice call from David about Shand.
Stooshie looks very nice, although would be pushing budget to the max.

Will take Spesh guards easily

Forgot to say, those are 30s in the pic above. With room.

Nice call from David about Shand.
Stooshie looks very nice, although would be pushing budget to the max.

Yeh, might be a close call; depends how bothered you are about the rest of the build TBH. The build kit on mine was pretty cheap, most of it second hand, although it's reasonably fancy stuff.

Mason Definition.
Think there's one of their steel frames on ebay ATM aswell
http://fairlightcycles.com/strael/?v=79cba1185463

Mason definition, without a doubt perfect for the job. Love mine. Built my own for a LOT less than their retail price

[url= https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/362/31831882062_368415361a_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/362/31831882062_368415361a_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/QuSHwN ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/60401414@N00/ ]danjwilkinson[/url], on Flickr

Have you ridden any audaxes - or audax type rides - before? If you have, does that include some of the longer distances that you are considering, i.e. 200km and upwards?

If not, and assuming that is what you want the bike to be suitable for, then I suggest you join Audax UK, get the calendar of rides, and enter some first before buying a new bike.

Riding some audaxes will give a better idea than anyone on STW can of what might be the best bike for you, and will also give you the opportunity to see what bikes other more experienced riders use, and how they have set them up.

Once you start looking at 300km rides, lights are usually necessary (and they may be necessary for early/late season 200km audaxes and slower riders), so you would need to think about either battery lights or a dynamo hub. You will also need to think about what you will need to take with you and what to put it in, most likely a saddle bag or a rack pack (so you will probably want the frame to have rack bosses).

Frankly, your Boardman CX looks like it would be just fine, at least to begin with (and to use as a test bed on rides to work out what does - and does not - work for you): many people will be on old style touring and steel framed bikes that will probably be much heavier than the Boardman CX.

There's nothing like an epic ride or three, especially in bad weather and possibly with a mechanical thrown in for good measure, to help you decide what you want on your next bike.

Interestingly, if you read some of the comments made by Dave Yates, a frame builder and himself a veteran audax rider, he actually advises people not to go for the more expensive Reynolds tubesets for an audax frame, because their lightness comes at the price of too much stiffness for long distance audaxes, and his personal experience was that the basic Reynolds fork blades are more comfortable than 853 blades and that this was very noticeable at the end of a ride like LEL.

@slowster
No, I haven't ridden an audax before, but i have done a 200km ride, and i have done a 1000km 6 day tour (although not self supported) so have a fair idea regarding what i'm after.
Already have a large saddle pack from bikepacking - combined with the two drop bags for LEL, that should be ample.
Speccing from scratch i'd probably want a dynamo for lights/garmin, but already have battery pack solutions that work from 24hr racing that i could fall back on.

The Boardman CX whilst fitting the bill perfectly for a cheap winter bike has a number of flaws that put me off using it for big miles. Wheels weigh almost as much as a decent bike, bb7's are mediocre at best, saddle is lacking, and fork has no eyelets for guard (although bolt hole available for a sks beavertail or similar) and with guards there is a huuuge toe overlap.

No, I haven't ridden an audax before, but i have done a 200km ride, and i have done a 1000km 6 day tour (although not self supported) so have a fair idea regarding what i'm after.

I have only done 200km, 300km and 24 hour rides, so cannot really talk, but have been a member of AUK for a couple of decades, and I think that it is inevitable that you will modify your idea of what you need/want in the course of completing a Super Randoneur series, especially the 400km and 600km rides.

That's not say that you cannot make a good choice of bike now which would serve you well and which you could tweak and refine during the SR series, I simply think that there is a greater risk that you could choose something now which you would later decide was not what you really wanted/needed.

Whilst the very fastest riders who treat LEL and PBP as a race may be on what are to most intents and purposes full on road race bikes, I think that the key for most people, especially someone doing it for the first time, is comfort above everything else. That is probably more easily achieved with a more traditional steel frame biased more towards the (fastish) touring end of tubes and geometry.

So, in your shoes, if I had to get a bike now rather than make do with what I had and wait a bit, my own personal perferred option would be a [url= http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/ ]Dave Yates[/url]: old school, but reliable. I am sure Shand could build something similar, and if they are close to you, I would definately have a chat with them.

I think that bikes like the Mason Definition and Kinesis Gran Fondo Ti are more biased towards the Sportive end of the spectrum, and may be less likely to be as suitable for the longer rides (although I'm sure some people will use them and sing their praises).

Already have a large saddle pack from bikepacking

If the bag is a single compartment narrow tapered bikepacking saddle pack, of the sort where you have to half empty the bag to get something in the bottom, I think you will find it's not very practical compared with a saddlebag or rack pack, which have convenient side pockets in which to organise stuff (tools, brevet card, wallet, head torch etc.) and the lids/flaps of which give you full access to the main compartment. Looking at photos in the AUK mag, Arrivee, saddlebags and rack packs still seem to be the preferred option (plus some bar bags for longer rides like PBP/LEL).

The bag choice is minor in grand scheme of things, and I could be wrong in your case, but it's typical of the sort of thing where you are likely to find some things don't work and others do (and again, the quickest way to learn and avoid expensive mistakes, is to watch and ask what the experienced riders do/use).

bb7's are mediocre at best

A lot of audax riders, probably the vast majority, are still using rim brakes. That said, I can understand a preference for discs on a bike that will be ridden on long distance rides that will inevitably at some point include prolonged heavy rain and possibly at night.

Incidentally, do you ride with a club on the road/do much group riding on the road? Being able to ride safely in a group is a key skill, and I doubt any rider who completes LEL rides it entirely solo.

with guards there is a huuuge toe overlap

Toe overlap is usually nothing to worry about, because you simply would not turn the bars enough for it to happen at normal speeds. However, a toe strike at slow speed and fall is just the sort of thing that is going to be more likely when are extremely tired/sleep deprived and making a slow turn into a control etc., so I agree it's not something you want on a long distance audax bike.

Lastly, if you have not already done so, join AUK now. There are usually some good articles in the Spring edition of their Arrive magazine containing advice and people's tales of their own rides and lessons in LEL and PBP years, and you will be able to download the previous editions.

I built up my Kinesis Tripster for under £3k, and people ride the TCR on their alloy bikes.

At one Audax last Jan more than 50% of the frames I saw were from Kinesis or Genesis.

I think it would be short sighted to buy a frame that took anything less than 32mm with guards. There are other threads on STW discussing this at the moment, but the upshot is that the wider the tyre the lower the pressure that you can run them at, and that increases comfort. Comfort becoming more important the longer the ride. In my experience 32mm is the sweet spot.

I should add, I'm not an audaxer, and YMMV.

I'd also add, that (again in my experience) when you increase the tyre width and reduce the pressure, the frame build/material etc has much less of an impact.

slowster offer excellent advice.

I used to ride a lot of audax in the '90's, always found the lighter end of the touring bikes to be just right.

You"lol need a good measure of comfort really, weight is not the most important thing here, comfort and nice wide tyres to take whatever the route throws at you.

comfort above everything else. That is probably more easily achieved with a more traditional steel frame biased more towards the (fastish) touring end of tubes and geometry.

In my relatively limited experience of road frames, the most comfortable has been a 1987 Raleigh Randonneur. Soaks it all up, surprises me every time I get on it. Lightweight pre-CEN skinny steel tubes.

Yep, had a Raleigh Randonneur back in the day, also a Nigel Dean Tourmaster 531, which was probably ideal.

Able to put a rear rack on with a bag on top of the rear rack.
Stash inner tubes, spare clothing, wet clothing , gloves etc.

200km rides were my preffered rides, nice day out with like minded folk. Good times.

And BB7s are great if you set them up right. Jagwire outer, 2 mins with a file or a dremel to make sure the ends are square, you should see a great improvement. I've got shimano hydros that have been more temperamental and less powerful than the BB7s on my cross bike.

For now, if you think you'll stick with discs whatever you get, you can could get some top notch wheels (Mason/Hunt?) for the Boardman that you can take onto a future fancy pants bike, that will sort the most important part of the weight issue. Plus £25 and a little time to sort the BB7s, and you'll have a bike the fits the bill very nicely for the time being, with no "lost" spending while you do a few events and refine your requirements.

+1 the Mason - I have one and have done several 100km audaxes without
any issues at all (well until health buggered me up !!!) got a couple
of 200km's lined up for this year.

Denis, I've just built up the Randonneur, felt like I should enter an audax because of it!

200K entered in June. Elstead out to Stonehenge and back. Supposed to be a good one!

I did a 400 in the summer, the bunch of 4 I was in featured 1xCAAD 10, 1xScott Addict (2015 I think with 28s squeezed *just* through his calipers), and a retro Giant TCR. It was sunny right enough. I let the side down with my Van Nicholas Yukon.

The poor marketing wo/men at the big bike companies would be in tears.

I appreciate this adds absolutely nothing to your ideas or this thread for that matter.

My take on an audax bike. Key points are guards (thou it's missing flaps in that photo), dynamo lights and reliable wheels. (oh and its got a triple).

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Tbh, I reckon my carbon bikes would be more comfy...

Boardman CX 😉

Probably a little heavier than your target, but the geometry is serious road, the clearance for 32C tyres and ability to take guards make it a superb bike. Too nice for cross racing!

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Ive been agonising about this stuff....since inteoducing my OH to cycling, she has rapidly got fit and really wants to do some audax. She rides her Boardman carbon road bike everywhere. She has a Spesh TriCross that hasnt moved in ages. She put raceblades on the boardman and uses it all weathers. I tend to leave my carbon roadbike at home when its going to be wet or dirty and i ride a Ridgeback world panorama deluxe. Its 853 main tubes and 525 forks. Ti seatpost and Brooks b17. Its 3x10 and has a pannier rack. Its on 32mm tyres and has full mudguards and discs.
The problem is its SO slow. It weighs 16kg and appears to have the rolling resistance of an ocean liner. I get murdered by my gf when we go and ride and although its comfortable its no more comfy than my 6kg road bike running tubs at 150psi. Im really not sure what to do to redress this performance inbalance. Everywhere i read that wider tyres will make me faster and more comfortable. I appreciate we arent comparing like with like, but the massive disparity in performance makes me wonder what i should do!

I've ridden bikes which are just slow, they sap the energy from you. Sometimes it's not directly attributable to weight or tyres. (though 16kg is heavy!) Could be bad ju-ju in the frame.

If you're getting left behind by your girlfriend, get something more sprightly, or suck up a little more maintenance on the carbon roadbike. you'll both have better bike rides when you're out together!

Edit: but you might find that it's not the bike, she's just much fitter than you! 😉

If we run together im the same or faster. If we ride equivalent bikes i can readily leave her on climbs and the flat. However when im on the heavy bike it seems an ordeal. Its a shame as i enjoy the bike and when riding it solo its a lovely place to spend my day.

I think im going to try some lower RR tyres like Vittoria Hypers and see how they feel.

@breninbeener - wider tyres are faster if they're supple, if you're using a touring tyre like a marathon that emphasises puncture protection over everything else it's going to have high rolling resistance. Something like the compass tyres will be a lot better (and lighter). I've got Vittoria Hypers from PX/On one which aren't as fancy but cheaper and still very fast, even in 35mm size.

Ace. I will get some. Thank you

Another bike worth looking at is the Spa Elan, gets great reviews and seems well liked on Audax forums along with the Condor mentioned above. The Spa got a great right up in one of the cycling mags last month as well, but can't remember which (got given it at xmas as something to read).

I came across a website www.bicyclerollingresistance.com that has some useful comparisons on tyres all compared on the same test rig. I have used continental sport contact 35mm since reading that and find them comfy and quite fast.

Training with roadies they always comment on how I'm making it hard work for myself but given the rough roads round here I consider it an advantage.

I'd also say use your Boardman.
I use my work bike (Kinesis Pro6 with HyRd brakes, dyno hub, rack and guards) for Audax, and just swap the commuting Marathons for 28mm GP 4000s tyres. Not particularly light, but comfortable and plenty fast enough. Lots of people do choose full on race bikes for Audax, but for me that's not the right tool for the job.

Spend your money on a decent set of spare wheels with a dyno hub and you can keep your fast tyres on them and just swap them over for events. If the Boardman doesn't work for you, you can always buy something else later, but if be surprised if it doesn't fit the bill.

Check out the Adventure Show episode of the Scots Audax - whole gamut of bikes on there - one lad on his Planet X Uncle John.

In my relatively limited experience of road frames, the most comfortable has been a 1987 Raleigh Randonneur. Soaks it all up, surprises me every time I get on it. Lightweight pre-CEN skinny steel tubes.

Bl@@dy hell, snap! I rebuilt mine last year, and was staggered at how good it felt, and this was comparing it with custom 853, 953, Colnago carbon and titanium Tripster. The transmission was also noticeably smoother than my other bikes, presumably due to the cup and cone Campag Tipo hubs and TA bottom bracket using loose balls.

I'm not so entirely convinced about very much wider tyres. My Raleigh felt noticably slower when I changed the worn out 23mm Vredestein Tricomps on it for 32mm Vittoria Hypers, and I suspect that at 32mm and above, you do have to buy the very best and most expensive tyres to get the both the speed from low rolling resistance and the comfort. I remember riding a 200km when I had fitted 30mm Michelin World Tours to the Raleigh; at that distance I didn't notice the extra comfort, but I certainly noticed the extra weight and dragginess of the tyres, and was much more tired at the end of the ride as a result.

Breninbeener, you might be better off going a bit narrower and lighter rather than the half way house of the Vittoria Hypers, since you are presumably doing day rides wher you don't needs loads of cushioning from the tyres. How about the Michelin Pro 4 Endurance in 28mm or even 25mm? If that does not make enough difference for you, then you know a wider tyre like the Hyper or even one of the much more expensive Compass wider tyres won't give you what you want.

At one Audax last Jan more than 50% of the frames I saw were from Kinesis or Genesis.

I suspect that was a 100km, or at most a 200km. A lot of MAMILs will ride sportives and 100km audaxes on their high end carbon/titanium steed, which is often very close to a road race bike. The demographic shifts at 200km, and for 300km and above the participants will tend to be hard riding 'touring' riders. I remember an AUK champion telling me about one audax where a racing club entered en bloc, and set a high pace at the front, until the first very big hill, when they were simply dropped by the very tough hard riders you will find at the front of most audaxes.

Not saying you're wrong, but often narrower tyres can feel faster even when they're not. Lots of very good articles on [url=janheine.wordpress.com]Jan Heine's blog[/url] that are about this and other subjects to do with randonneur/audax rides. Well worth spending an hour (or several days) browsing through for tips and inspiration!

I'll tell Tomsk you called him a MAMIL 🙂

It's technically true I suppose but anyone who rides a January 200 on a fixed-gear Genesis is hardly a supportive racer wannabe.

anyone who rides a January 200 on a fixed-gear Genesis is hardly a supportive racer wannabe

I thought about making a distinction that, unlike Kinesis, the Genesis range includes not only racier bikes but also others which are more touring biased, but I figured my post was too long already. 200km on a fixed in January is very impressive.

Not saying you're wrong, but often narrower tyres can feel faster even when they're not.

I agree that in some conditions, especially on poor surfaces/gravel/off road, a narrow tyre may give a deceptive feeling of being faster, where in reality a wider tyre will give a smoother, more comfortable ride which is just as fast and which crucially does not batter the rider, with the result that the rider with wider tyres will be less battered, less tired, and consequently be in better shape and faster the longer the ride goes on. Paris Roubaix is probably a classic example, where the Spanish teams (admittedly for whom this was not an important race) routinely rode their usual set ups with narrow high pressures, and routinely made no impact on the race/DNF, until the odd Spanish rider who actually liked that sort of race, paid attention to what the Belgians did, and realised they used wider tubs and much lower pressures for Paris Roubaix than any other race (so horses for courses - not every race/ride/road is the same).

So, I am doubtful of this being so relevant on reasonably good roads, and with regard to 'feeling faster', what I felt when I replaced the 23mm tyres with the Hypers was not slower speed, but rather that the pedals were requiring more effort from me at my usual cadence in a given gear, and it was noticeable because I had not expected it.

fifeandy, if you are still reading, I mentioned the importance of group riding skills. On that note, one of the first things you should do to your Boardman and/or any new bike, is fit a decent (=long) mudflap to your rear mudguard. Both in the rain and after (when the roads are still wet), you will not be welcome by many riders in a group if you do not have a decent rear mudguard with a mudflap. Riding behind someone without a mudflap at those sort of speeds results in getting a continuous spray of water in the face. The usual solution used to be a piece of plastic cut out from a washing up liquid bottle or similar, or a piece of damp proof course, even though it may spoil the aesthetics of a £3,000 bike.

no one mentioned Spa cycles yet?

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s21p0/Bikes/Touring-Audax-and-Sportive

some really good value titanium audax/tourers there (chain stays too long for me though).

Hi folks, yes i'm still reading. Have been out of the office today and only just back to an internet connection.

Some good advice all round, and the Mason Definition does look very much like what i'm after. Goes to top of the list.

@large tyres: I'm definitely sold that wider is faster, but weight has to be good and has to be a nice supple carcass too. A GP4Seasons in a 32c would be a thing of beauty.

@boardman cx: Had already identified wheel upgrade as a potential starting point and potentially poor quality cables for poor bb7 performance. Slowster hit the nail on the head regarding toe overlap though - generally not a problem, but massive potential ball ache when exhausted.

@group riding: i'm not a member of a club so don't have massive experience at it, but have spent 2-3 summers doing race pace apr's so able to ride in double line at 20-30mph happily enough.

Large tyres: Compass have a very good rep for fast, light supple tyres in larger sizes:

http://www.velovitality.co.uk/products/compass-stampede-pass-tyre-700c-x-32-mm

Large tyres are the way forward IMO. However it is important that they be good quality and supple, because if you get it wrong you may as well drag a sandbag behind your bike.

This was brought home to me when I modified a 29er for road use with dropbars and Schwalbe Big Apple tyres. The motive was comfort because I ride on a lot of rough roads and about 50% gravel. They work really well in that role.

When it came to rolling resistance I got a surprise. I was freewheeling downhill (road) on a moderate slope with a group on road bikes (used for commuting) and I was having to lightly apply my brakes to avoid overshooting them. That was not what I expected, so it's a bonus.

When you don't spend a lot of time riding in the zone where the aerodynamics of your tyres are critical, then fatter is better. They have more effect on comfort than a lot of the little tweaks we make to a bike, and especially after a long day.

If you're used to high pressure tyres it will feel odd at first, and less responsive/slower, but check your averages over a bit of distance and it will tell a different story.

Im loving that Mason Definition....in reading their website it seems that even the top model uses some Hunt wheels with not too wide tyres. I think im going to weigh my current wheelset and get some new nicer tyres.

I may also treat my bike to some of those Hunts!

Ok, some idle digging on weights reveals that my Alex xd lite rims on Shimano deore hubs weigh 1000g at front and 1180 at the rear. My wire bead Conti Contact 32mm tyres are listed as 810g! Add a generic heavy touring tube and that seems a heavy wheelset. Im not sure what make or mass the discs are, but im guessing that they wont be the lightest.

So will a pr of Michelin pro 4 endurance in 25 or 28mm be a waste of time until I buy a lighter wheelset?

thanks

Pro4 Endurance are a nice tyre. Don't have the pace of a full on racing tyre, but still fast rolling considering the protection they offer.
You'll likely have both faster tyres and save 500g off each tyre so would think you will notice the difference even before a wheel upgrade.

Breninbeener, I can't answer your question, but if it's any help I've measured a 28mm Pro 4 Endurance on my kitchen scales together with a few other tyres for comparison, including the 32mm Hyper:

23mm Pro Race (version 1 or 2, not sure which) - 214g
25mm Pro 3 Race - 221g
28mm Pro 4 Endurance - 291g
28mm Vredestein Senso Xtreme Weather - 273g (measures just over 28mm fitted on a Kinesis Crosslight wheel)
32mm Vittoria Voyager Hyper - 410g
40mm Vittoria Voyager Hyper - 466g

Incidentally, with regard to wider tyres, what about the rim width? Some manufacturers, like Pacenti, are promoting wider road rims which will alter the shape/volume of the tyre. So, is a 23mm tyre on a 20mm rim going to perform better than a 25mm or 28mm on a 15mm rim?

Ok. I think my current rims are 18mm internal. I have just ordered a pr of Michelin pro4 endurance in 25mm flavour!

Thank you for your input everyone. I will report back 🙂

Hooray! I've got some rather aged Duro/HwaFong 28c on 24mm Mavic Module 4s. 36 beefy spokes. I might nick the Ultegra wheelset off the wife's bike for some compare and contrast.

@nedrapier......let us know how you get on. What tyres are on the ultegra?

28 gatorskins. Some love 'em, some think they're all dead and slow and slippy. I'll get some decent tyres at some point and give them a try on the ultegras for a long ride. Won't be for a while though, weekends are taken up for a month or 2, rides are short, dark and muddy!

Mason Definition is very nice but the Mason Resolution is better - but that's because I have one off-course. Hunt wheels (carbon 38's) and 28 Vittoaria Corsa G+. Very happy with that combo so far. 2 months and almost 1750km.

Bump.
Any thoughts on the Genesis Datum?
Looks about what i'm after (perhaps a fraction overweight), supposedly has fittings for guards, but I can't find any pictures showing eyelets on the fork.

Seems i've trashed the chain, cassette, big ring and rear mech on the Boardman CX, so may well be heading to the skip after winter 2017/18.

If you're really after an audax bike, there are some good deals on the genesis equilibrium decade on ebay - guards, rack and dynamo front hub, plus a triple, for about £800.

If you're really after an audax bike, there are some good deals on the genesis equilibrium decade on ebay - guards, rack and dynamo front hub, plus a triple, for about £800.

Spectacularly fails the good looking test.
When you come out of the cafe freshly caffeinated to the max, seeing the bike propped up and waiting to go is supposed to bring a smile to your face not a grimace.

Edit: Having had some time to think about it more, and having knocked out another couple of 200km rides, i'm even more sure what I want is a light, fast, efficient bike with bigger clearance and mudguard mounts to increase practicality.
Yes it has to be comfortable (I don't really find a full on carbon race bike uncomfortable), but if i'm going to ride a bike lots of miles it has to also be fun to ride.

I have two "audaxish" bikes - a Thorn Audax (original version) and a Mason Definition. They're quite different in character: the Thorn is very compliant and slow-handling, whereas the Mason is more sprightly. Oddly, I find them about as comfortable as each other on long rides, and would say both are really well suited to the task. The Mason is far nicer to ride when you want to push on though, and looks fantastic. I had to have one road bike for everything, it would be top of the list.

I did my first audax a few weeks ago on the Randonneur - 200km plus another 25 to and from the start. Bike went well, my knees, less so!

I'd love something lighter, but with the Raleigh, I can just about get away with 5.10s and flats, not sure if I could do that to a Mason Definition!

Plus I Don't Need Another Bike. This is a perfect single road bike for me. commutes, shopping, long rides, errands, pub rides, some light bridleway bashing.

If I did, though, I think that Mason would be top of my list, too.

Well, i had a 45min test ride on a 2016 Pinnacle Dolomite 5 today. Ironed out poor surfaces well, didn't feel too heavy when climbing or accelerating, and generally rolled along at a nice pace.

Didn't get on well with the position and handling though. Felt the head tube was too long putting me upright like a sail, and reach was too short. Handling i felt was very stable, but very slow and as a result just not a fun engaging ride.

So a bike capable of going fast that wants to go slow.

Just added this to be my main distance bike, although it sounds like we might differ a bit of what we want from a distance bike. I was looking for something similar to my old Roubaix but a bit more modern and with hydro disks and Di2 - and it helped that it was £1700 cheaper than the equivalent Roubaix as well.
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No mudguard mounts and suspect 28mm tyres are probably as wide as it'll go though.