[Closed] rear mech issues

Have you knocked the mech hanger? Check its alignment first.

Also, are you looking at the correct limit adjustment screw?

Add 1/2 turn of B screw to move mech away from cogs
Bent/misaligned hanger
Incorrect adjustment of limit screws (are you sure the one not touching is the lower limit screw?)
Is the stop tab in tbe right place and the hanger installed correctly

Have you knocked the mech hanger? Check its alignment first.

Also, are you looking at the correct limit adjustment screw?

it all looks aligned when i look from the back, it doesnt look like it should be trying to climb. dont think the hangers been knocked. i wondered if the gap between mech and cog (b screw) could make any difference? do you think this is too close?
[img] [/img]

also the lower jockey wheel is 'spiked', dont know if it should be or if its worn?

yes im sure its the right screw. furthest away from the frame, it also has an H by it.

thanks

EDIT:

Add 1/2 turn of B screw to move mech away from cogs

thatll be my next move tomorrow, thanks.

If you've loosened off the H limit screw after attaching the cable, it could be now be the cable that's limiting the outward movement of the mech.

If you’ve loosened off the H limit screw after attaching the cable, it could be now be the cable that’s limiting the outward movement of the mech.

i havent attached the cable, just to prove this point.

thanks

i havent attached the cable, just to prove this point.

thanks

Sorry, I completely missed that the first time around!

Yes. In my opinion that gap between jockey and cassette is to close

Bottom jockeyvwheel doesnt look worn to me, it looks forked

Running gear could do with a good clean top

Yes. In my opinion that gap between jockey and cassette is to close

Bottom jockeyvwheel doesnt look worn to me, it looks forked

Running gear could do with a good clean top

cheers, ill have a play with the b-screw tomorrow.

any idea which replacement jockey wheel id need? are they all the same or will i need to search for a 'sram XO lower jockey wheel'?

running gear looks dirty, and i spose it is, but i think it probably looks worse than it is. the chains just come out of a putoline bath, which whilst it doesnt clean it per se, i think it waxes/lubes the important bits?

thanks

well i screwed the b-screw in half a turn, no difference. looked from the back and altho it seems to be trying to skip and jump onto the 2nd cog, it really doesnt look like its the line thats causing this, the chain is just skipping.

further investigation on the lower jockey wheel does indeed look like its borked. ive taken it off now.
[img] [/img]

so, before i mess with anything else, ill get a new jockey wheel set and see how it goes.

any idea which replacement jockey wheel id need? are they all the same or will i need to search for a ‘sram XO lower jockey wheel’?

bump on this please?

thanks

I’d firstly borrow the tool you need to check the hanger isn’t bent - I had a brand new frame where it wasn’t aligned and I couldn’t get brand new gears to work until straightened.

How worn is the cassette / chain / chainring? It looks tired - but maybe the dirt isn’t helping.

Also - aren’t you meant to fully degrease / clean a chain before putting it in putaline?

ill ask around a few mates see if anyone has one, dont think ive ever seen one tho so not holding out much hope.

ill still need a new jockey wheel anyway, so nothing lost by getting sorted there and trying again if i cant get hold of a 'hanger checker'.

thanks

Chain looks very worn which would potentially explain the nick of your jockey wheels.

borrowing a chain-wear checker next week, but out of interest, how can you tell if a chains worn just by looking at it? just looks like a dirty chain to me 😀

i havent actually ridden the bike yet since buying and repainting frame, so cant vouch for the mech/chain/cassette, but i spose it cant harm to get a new 9 speed chain anyway. its got a new front ring, itll have new jockey wheels, ill get a new chain too, i wont change the cassette yet tho as i want to prove 1x9 with it.

hopefully this will sort the issue and negate the need to check the hanger alignment.

thanks

Chain pins don’t look centred between the teeth, and sprockets - esp the smaller ones, look worn.

If you've a straight ruler (steel preferably) then just measure out twelve full links - they should come to 12"

Worn chains are more likely to skip in the smaller cogs as there's fewer teeth to engage.

Mate, check the gear hanger. They never look out but 3 out of 4 of mine were.

Chain pins don’t look centred between the teeth, and sprockets – esp the smaller ones, look worn.

If you’ve a straight ruler (steel preferably) then just measure out twelve full links – they should come to 12″

ah gotcha, thanks.

Mate, check the gear hanger. They never look out but 3 out of 4 of mine were.

had a look at tool prices and they scared me, so i assume best bet is to take it into a shop and ask them to check it?
out of interest, how easy is it to bend back a steel frame if it is indeed needed? its just had a repaint so dont want to start chipping/cracking the paintwork.
hopefully itll just be the jockey wheels and chain thats causing the skipping.....

Chains do stretch, but by very little - the rollers on the pins wear though, which means that the effective pin to pin distance increases, giving the same effect as stretch, so a chain measuring tool is more use in gauging wear than a ruler.

A quick way to guess how worn a chain is is to twist it and compare that to a newer one. Worn chains twist loads more that’s why the shifting goes awry.

The only thing you can tell for sure from that picture is that the b tension is insufficient and that jockey wheel is ****ed.

The small sprockets are out of focus and the angle of the photo doesn't let you see the relative position of the pins between the teeth with any clarity.

You can maybe draw some conclusions like that KCNC jockey isn't original -if the rest of the running gear is it's almost certain to be worn if it's lived long enough to go through two sets of jockey wheels.

Every single one of our bikes had a bent hanger. I would (now) check them first always.

update time. mate came round with his chain checker and confirmed that out of the 2 settings, 'fked' or 'fked fked' it was indeed the latter option.

new kmc chain, 2 new superstar jockey wheels, mates also given me a better cassette than i had on (hes a good lad isnt he) and the result is......... its still climbing on the smallest cog. probably even worse than before.

so, we're now left with either a bent mech, or bent hanger which is your favoured option so far i think 🙂
mate says hes going to attempt to make an alignment tool at work so we can check it (told you he was a good lad didnt i).

the videos ive watched on youtube so far show sacrificial hangers, mines a steel mk1 soul and its part of the frame. there shouldnt be any problem bending it should there? no chance of it snapping? is it ok to bend a steel hanger?

[img] [/img]

also i wondered about the paint on the hanger. ive just had it resprayed and so its obviously got a new coat on it. thats fine isnt it? doesnt need to be a 'faced' finish?

thanks

well, the plot thickens, update time.....

mate came round with his home-made 'hanger-checker', found out it was about 10mm out and we straightened it best we can. however, still hasnt cured it, chain still constantly trying to climb from smallest cog up to next one.

next was to examine cassette. mate says he thinks cassette looks too close to the frame maybe (and hence the chain too, almost rubbing the frame), and thats why the chain might be trying to wander back.

[img] [/img]

and with the chain further up the cassette
[img] [/img]

we measured the gap from edge of cog to frame, its about 1/8th of an inch.
he measured the gap on his, he says its about 3/16ths. deal-breaker?
[img] [/img]

i also wondered whether the wheel hub itself may be different from normal, maybe for an 8 speed or somethings, so took the cassette off and measured it. its 35mm, that the right width?
[img] [/img]

just to re-confirm, cable isnt connected to mech so mech is at its furthest point across by itself, limit screw is as far out as poss, so we believe the mech cannot come over any further. new chain and decent condition cassette.

whats left? i can only think of a bent mech itself, or, that the chainline from the single ring up front to smallest cog is such that its trying to pull the chain inline all the time.

thoughts please?

fit his wheel to your bike to test ?

Assuming the hanger is now straight (10mm out sounds a lot) then I reckon perhaps your mech is borked. Which having seen the condition of the jockeys above and the chain / cassette being very worn is quite likely. It could be bent or have too much play in it.

Based on your measurement from smallest cog to frame yours is only 1/16th closer? As long as the chain isn’t touching the frame I’d have thought that was ok.

On chainline your frame must be non boost so as long as it’s a non boost chainset and / or non boost ring with the correct bb spacers that shouldn’t be the issue.

Have you tried pulling the mech down towards the smallest cog whilst the chain is trying to skip back up to the next cog? IE is something yet to be established preventing the mech moving all the way to its outer limit?

As Davesport. I’d bet, after all what you have done, that it’s the mech. A tired/stretched spring in the mech?

Have you changed or removed the bb or cranks? My best guess is that the chainline is off, which could be caused by a change of cranks or bb (or frame) and/or not enough spacers on the drive side bb cup.

fit his wheel to your bike to test ?

good call. mentioned it to him, he says his is 130mm, mine will be 135mm, but should still prove a point?

Based on your measurement from smallest cog to frame yours is only 1/16th closer? As long as the chain isn’t touching the frame I’d have thought that was ok.

correct, 1/16th closer.

Have you tried pulling the mech down towards the smallest cog whilst the chain is trying to skip back up to the next cog? IE is something yet to be established preventing the mech moving all the way to its outer limit?

another good suggestion, ill try this when theres a spare pair of hands around.

Have you changed or removed the bb or cranks? My best guess is that the chainline is off, which could be caused by a change of cranks or bb (or frame) and/or not enough spacers on the drive side bb cup.

hmmmmm yes i have. stripped it all for a respray and entirely possible i may have not got it quite right putting bb back in with correct spacers where they should be i spose. but, on the point of chainline being off, im not sure that would have an effect would it? ive gone from 3 at the front to a single ring, so effectively in the middle of the old chainset. and on the old chainset i should still have been able to go small/small still shouldnt i, which would be even more of a skewed angle?

thanks for the suggestions.

just tried one of the suggestions above, tried putting pressure on the mech (both ways actually) whilst pedalling to see if it improved. i think it did improve it, its not climbing as much now.
what it is doing is the same as i originally mentioned, the mech is sort of 'clicking' and twitching all the time as the chain goes through it, even when not trying to climb. ive put my finger on the bottom cage part and thats where i feel the click most. gut feeling is that theres probably an issue with the mech.
it doesnt help that the front ring is an oval, so the mechs moving all the time anyway, i think itd be easier to diagnose if it was round so the mech was totally still.

i spose the only way to test that is try another mech. im loathe to spend too much on diagnostics so will try and find a spare from a mate maybe.

if i do have to buy new, is it worth getting a 'longer' mech to future proof for 10 or 11 speed say? to give me clearance over bigger cogs? or if i did that would i have problems using it with 9sp?

thanks

The mech will constantly move forward and back a little with an oval chainring i think.

If you find the mech is borked I’d be tempted just to change the mech / cassette / shifter / chain and move to new Shimano Deore. Either 10 or 11 speed I believe it comes in and it was pretty cheap when I tried to put a budget group together for my nephew. Went Sunrace 11-46 cassette / deore 11 speed mech / slx 11 speed shifter / Sram 11 speed chain as those were the cheapest of each bit I needed. Works pretty well once I straightened the mech hanger on the brand new frame (Brand X Ht).

If for some reason the mech can't move out enough to suit the new frame try putting a thick washer between the mech and the hanger. I had to do that 30 odd years back to make a Trigger's Broom of a bike work.

Wasn’t it that generation of Sram mechs that showed pivot slop after extended use which caused the parallelogram to go a bit skew-wiff, with the end result being that the cable clamp assembly somehow fouled another part of the mech, preventing it being able to fully drop into the 11T sprocket? Got a pic of the cable clamp area while in or trying to get into 11T?

Have you tried pulling the mech down towards the smallest cog whilst the chain is trying to skip back up to the next cog? IE is something yet to be established preventing the mech moving all the way to its outer limit?

My idea was you did this on a workstand so it could be done singlehanded. Hope you get sorted...most annoying when things like this happen.

My idea was you did this on a workstand so it could be done singlehanded.

thats what i did in the end (see my post above? ^^) it made it a bit better, it wasnt trying to climb as much, but mech still clicking and twitching whilst the chain was running through it.

Got a pic of the cable clamp area while in or trying to get into 11T?

ill try and get a pic/vid tomorrow.

If for some reason the mech can’t move out enough to suit the new frame try putting a thick washer between the mech and the hanger. I had to do that 30 odd years back to make a Trigger’s Broom of a bike work.

another good suggestion, and ill look into that also.

If you find the mech is borked I’d be tempted just to change the mech / cassette / shifter / chain and move to new Shimano Deore. Either 10 or 11 speed I believe it comes in and it was pretty cheap when I tried to put a budget group together for my nephew.

as per my previous question, would the 10 or 11 speed mech be compatible with 9 speed too if i didnt want a full conversion, yet still be 'future-proofed'?

thanks.

not sure how successful this will be, but here goes......

youll need your sound turned up to hear the clicking. hope it also shows "Got a pic of the cable clamp area while in or trying to get into 11T?"

1st video

2nd video

Tried some OEM jockey wheels? Most aftermarket ones are awful IME.

Tried some OEM jockey wheels? Most aftermarket ones are awful IME.

jockey wheels are new superstar jockeys.

well finally sourced a cheapo sram 9sp mech on facebook for a fiver, thought itd at least help me eliminate the mech from the problem.
its a shorter cage so cant reach the big cog, but with the screw wound right back so the mech comes as far over towards the small cog as possible, i still have the same problem, still climbing onto second cog and dropping back down all the time..

i know my mates been round with his home-made alignment tool, but is that all thats left for me now, alignment? its not a replaceable hanger, its all part of the steel frame, so do i now need to admit defeat and take to a shop to check?

thanks

well as my mate had suspected, it looks like a wheel/axle width issue.

he's lent me one of his wheels with a 9sp cassette and theres no issue. put mine back on and it skips again. the difference in widths is minimal but 'just enough' to cause an issue.
these 2 pics are my wheel.....

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

these 2 are my mates wheel.....

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

you can see the chain is close to the stays on mine which is causing it to ride up on the cassette, trying to get onto the next cog up. mech is at its max, same with the other mech i tried.

i guess theres nothing i can do to 'widen' the axle a mm or so, or at least the bit from cog to the part the dropout sits on?
so will this frame only work properly with a different wheel?

thanks

were any of these removed from your wheel?
- cassette
- freehub
- axle end caps/spacers
- axle

it's possible that one of them isn't fitted right and that has moved the position of the cassette out slightly

the bike is new to me, ive never ridden it yet. once acquired i stripped it, had it resprayed and went 1x.
the only thing ive changed on the wheel is the cassette because this was happening on the old cassette too.

i dont know my way around wheel innards, can i take it to bits and insert a spacer or anything?

Looks like QR? Is it cup and cone bearings? You might have the axle protruding more on the non drive side than it should be.

Axle protruding more on NDS wouldn’t make any difference. Looks like you need a small washer between the DS cone and locknut to increase the distance between 11T sprocket and dropout.

Axle protruding more on NDS wouldn’t make any difference. Looks like you need a small washer between the DS cone and locknut to increase the distance between 11T sprocket and dropout.

thats definitely the distance that needs widening, is it possible? ive got absolutely no idea how these things come apart (or more importantly go back together) 😀

What model is the hub?

American Classic

Actually @sillyoldman is correct now that I think about it and his solution should work.

Edit: You could test for this by seeing if your mates wheels are a tighter fit between the drop outs, with the QR loose of course.

You could test for this by seeing if your mates wheels are a tighter fit between the drop outs, with the QR loose of course.

i think even if it wasnt, theres plenty of spring in the frame to be able to take 1mm-ish of washer.
question is, how does it all come apart for me to do this and what size/sort of washer would i need? any youtube vids?

thanks

Just looked at that hub and seems it's sealed bearings so above advice doesn't apply. When you replaced the cassette did you notice if there was a spacer behind it?

there isnt no, i took it off and checked it again today.....

You have tried loosening the high limit screw and adjusting the indexing haven't you?

screw is screwed out waaaay past its top limit, and the cable isnt connected to the mech. so the mech is as far over as its possible to be. its a purely 'untensioned' mech.

Beats me then, theres normally enough range with the H limit screw to pull the chain off into the frame.

so the problem might have already been there there when you first got the bike?

that could mean previous work on it left it that way.

assume the cassettes are fitting securely with no play - so they can probably be ruled out.

Have you tried physicaly pulling the rear mech across to see if the chain will stay on the cog. Could be a chain tension/line issue with the 1x convertion. Is the chain long enough?

so the problem might have already been there there when you first got the bike?

that could mean previous work on it left it that way.

possible, and that as it was 3x then that smallest cog may never have been needed so problem not identified.

assume the cassettes are fitting securely with no play – so they can probably be ruled out.

yes, happened on original worn cassette, and also happens on this second one which has been off and on a few times for double checks.

Have you tried physicaly pulling the rear mech across to see if the chain will stay on the cog.

yes i think i have, cant remember now if that proved anything one way or another so should maybe try that again now i know the problem is the wheel.

Could be a chain tension/line issue with the 1x convertion. Is the chain long enough?

new chain set to the original chains length which goes round the mech and largest cog easy enough. the 1x conversion is just using original crankset and taking 3 rings off and replacing middle one with an oval ring. which is in the same place as the original middle ring so should be bob on.

the telling thing for me is that it works with a different wheel but not this one, and that there is a difference in spacing between the wheels. mine is almost touching the chainstays and looks like its too close.

thanks

Looking at the manual,link here there does seem to be a couple of spacers on the drive side which may have been assembled wrongly in the past. Might be worth stripping it down to have a look.

good spot. impressive that American Classic still keep their manuals online even thought they shut down three years ago: http://www.amclassicsales.com/amclassic.com/en/help/manuals

make sure it is the right hub though:

the rim looks like a Stans ZTR, so i'd guess that it is a Stans wheelset with OEM hubs from American Classic? so some details like model number and freehub colour may not match.

if the hubs are a version of the Terrain hub it is possible that the end caps have been mixed up. they are 11.0mm on one end and 9.2mm on the other and the side they go on varies with the freehub. having them the other way round would move the hub across by 1.8mm.

this is the manual for the Terrain: http://www.amclassicsales.com/amclassic.com/download/manuals/terrain_overhaul.pdf

another sign to look for first is if the rim is closer to the right seatstay than the left side. (assuming it is true). flipping the wheel can help compare as that will reverse the gap. if you try that then shift to the small sprocket to keep the mech and chain away from the disc.

cheers chaps, very helpful.

ive measured the distance from rim to frame, reversed and re-measured. all seems central and as it should be.

as per the manual link, ive identified the serial number which begins with an A, so from what all i can tell that just means its a 9/10 body not a 10/11 body.

the pic to me looks like the very first top hub in your first link, would you agree?

[img] [/img]

thanks

Yes, it looks like the 225 hub which is the manual I linked to. The one with the drive side spacers. Easy enough to pull the axle out and have a look, if someone has put both spacers inboard of the freehub then that would shift the cassette across towards the frame or if they have left them out altogether it would have the same effect. You could even try adding an extra spacer/washer on the axle at the drive side end to try and shift it as long as it leaves you enough threads for the nuts at the other end. Comparing your photo with the one in the manual, you do seem to have a bit more axle showing on the NDS than the one in the manual. Those spacers could account for that.

yes - could be missing that spacer between the dust seal and the freehub

here's a good photo of the NDS should look:

well, time for an update, and happily its a good update! id been ready to give in, accepting that i wont get to ride it this summer, bloody bike, just cant get it to shift properly, am i going to have to buy a whole new cassette/mech/shifter/chain? why oh why oh why??

my mate came round to have a look, and he was baffled too. changed mechs, changed spacers between cassette rings, kept checking alignment with his home-made tool, it all just left us scratching our heads. solve one issue and it was shit elsewhere.

then he just asked if id changed the cassette lockring. no idea, why would that matter anyway? he said that he'd heard of it before, and that lockrings can be the wrong sort, so i went looking through my box of trinkets. sure enough another lockring. the one on the bike was a 105 lockring, the one in my box had a number that started with M and was a little more domed rather than flat, so we guessed it may be more suitable and just changed it in hope really.

aaaaaand bingo! i owe him a pint or two for that, id never have thought of it! 😀

anyways, for those of you that can remember this from a few months ago i thought you may be interested in what the solution was.

thanks