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Society respecting peoples gender is easy.
This doesn't really jive with statements like this:
It is denying reality.
It is modern medicine gone crazy.
But it does not mean you are a female in a mans body.
Society respecting peoples gender is easy. Treat everyone with respect whether they are wearing a dress or not. Gender should be irrelevant.
I'm still a bit confused as to where all the men chivalrously defending women's rights were when women were ploughing through issues discussed on this site such as unequal prize money, grid girls, "aesthetic and athletic" and Friday Kylie posts?
Why did it take a shouty age-grouper transwoman, following current UCI protocol for sporting competition to make you all so het up?
"waves hands"
Boy did I get some flack for it as well
It is denying reality.
It is modern medicine gone crazy.
But it does not mean you are a female in a mans body.
I guess they are matter of opinion, I don't see any of those as offensive (well the medicine gone crazy might upset a few docs)the other two are scientific fact regarding sex, they are not to do with gender. Why is that offensive? You agreed in a previous post that sex and gender were different and sex being fixed was a valid viewpoint.
Fair point my language was unclear - I use man/male and woman/female interchangeably to mean male sex and female sex. I think of man and woman as referring to sex also, but it probably refers to gender for other people. I think gender is irrelevant so please remember I am always referring to sex.
I think gender is irrelevant
Unfortunately society disagrees, that's why we have male and female changing rooms. Sometimes you have to live in the real world rather than the one you'd like to live in.
that’s why we have male and female changing rooms.
Not at Todmorden Swimming Baths.
Or the ones at Sowerby Bridge.
5plus8
It may seem daft and obvious to you and me but to those transitioning it may appear offensive
Read Racheals first post on the thread I linked. Thats all I have to go on.
Not at Todmorden Swimming Baths.
Or the ones at Sowerby Bridge.
Have they abolished gender for the entire town or just in the swimming pool changing rooms?
At my local pool my son won't be allowed in the changing room with his Mum from next year since he'll reach the grand old age of 7.
Unfortunately society disagrees, that’s why we have male and female changing rooms. Sometimes you have to live in the real world rather than the one you’d like to live in.
I think they are separated by sex not gender?
Not at Todmorden Swimming Baths.
Or the ones at Sowerby Bridge.
Would that be everyone having their own cubicles, or do both genders strip off in front of each other in a communal area ? I'm betting it's not the latter.
It may seem daft and obvious to you and me but to those transitioning it may appear offensive
If people are offended by science then that's their problem not mine. The comments such as was-man etc are mean and pointless. But people flounce off here all the time due to opinion differences and no-one gives a shit. I don't see the difference. This is a discussion, we have to be able to state facts as we see them right? Otherwise we will avoid exploring the hard bits and nothing will get solved.
I respect and support Rachels right to do whatever she likes and ask people to address her how she likes, but if you ask is she male sex or female sex (I'm avoiding any looser definition) then as a science fact she is XY and male. I just don't see how science facts have the capacity to be offensive.
It is like someone getting offended if science says their god does not exist. As yet there has been zero evidence of any magical sky fairies or any other deities, if someone is offended by that, than that's their problem.
I can see why you think the way you do 5plus8. Like I said, I'm told I am good at understanding other people's POV and putting myself in their position but I really struggle to see things from transgender people's POV because it's something that I can't even begin to picture. I do, however, understand enough to know I don't understand it.
You also don't understand it but instead of accepting that you choose to believe it doesn't exist.
Re. your comparison with religion, a better analogy would be to say that someone doesn't believe in religious people. However, I'm assuming you accept that there are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc out there?
Would that be everyone having their own cubicles, or do both genders strip off in front of each other in a communal area ? I’m betting it’s not the latter.
Bit of both usually.
brucewee I don't think you quite get my point. You said 'transgender people’s POV' - note I made the distinction between sex and gender before.
Transgender people exist and are as valid as any other gender, as much as gender exists. Religious people exist, but their god does not. I never said they (trans) didn't exist. I said you cannot change your sex.
That's a scientific fact, you are xx or xy (or some anomaly) you cannot change any of them with surgery or hormones.
Gender dysphoria (I wish is wasn't called that, I prefer gender non conformism) is not sex dysphoria. And even if you were sex dysphoric it's just something you have to live with.
I am 6ft 10 black man dysphoric, I'd like to live as a 6ft 10 black man but I am not. Its a fact, I have to live with it.
I really struggle to see things from transgender people’s POV because it’s something that I can’t even begin to picture. I do, however, understand enough to know I don’t understand it.
This is very much my position nowadays. Racheal taught me that
5plus8 - can you not see how insisting a transgender woman is a man could be offensive?
jeepers - once again we go off topic a long way. Please be careful about your language. thats all I ask.
Tj you and bruce keep talking about gender. I am not insisting anyones gender is anything.
A xy person is sexually male. It's immutable. Their gender is whatever.
Male and female refer to sex eg xy or xx. Man and Woman refer to gender.
An M>F transperson is a male woman.
The sex (Male in my example) is fact. The gender (Woman in my example) is fluid/irrelevant/choice/conditioning/somethingelse delete as you see fit. I don't mind because gender is not anyones position to comment or have an opinion on.
Religious people exist, but their god does not
That’s quite a statement. It could spawn a substantial thread all in its own for the first time in internet history...
I think one place to start with resolving this could be to separate Sex and Gender. I think that people should accept their ‘Sex’ and how that might limit them but at the same time society as a whole should respect people’s gender
If "everybody" could accept this simple message then everything would be hunkydory. Its the "limit them" thats the sticking point.
The comparison to religion is, I think, a good one. Everyone has the right to a religious belief. I can completely respect that. That does not give them the right to expect me to also believe in their god(s), or to impose their religious beliefs upon me. Unfortunately, that's not where we are with transgender athletes (or society in general).
On the religious comparison. If someone had been born a jew but converted to Catholicism what are they now? by 5plus8s reckoning they are still a jew. ( IIRC jews can be identified genetically - not sure)
I don't quite get that scotroutes. You would still consider them a christian would you not? Even tho you consider it nonsense. I do not see how that compares. Maybe I missed a point
On the religious comparison. If someone had been born a jew but converted to Catholicism what are they now? by 5plus8s reckoning they are still a jew.
No, if someone had been born a woman (gender) and converted to a man (gender) they are a man, however they are still female (sex)
If someone was born a jew (belief) and converted to Catholicism (belief) they are now a catholic. However there is still no god (fact)
I don't want to diss you TJ but I'm worried about your comprehension. I hAve clearly made a distinction between sex and gender. You keep saying I deny gender, when in fact I don't, I acknowledge whatever your gender is, however you wish to define it. I ADMIRE the fact that people break gender norms.
However your biological sex is immutable.
I don’t quite get that scotroutes. You would still consider them a christian would you not? Even tho you consider it nonsense. I do not see how that compares. Maybe I missed a point
They can call themselves whatever they want. If someone identified as Christian and someone else asked me what religion they were I'd say they were Christian. However, I don't believe in their/any god and that person doesn't have the right to expect me to or to pretend to. It's their faith, not mine. To take a light-hearted example; if someones religion included the expectation that everyone had to wear a hat, they don't have the right to make me wear one. Nor do they have the "right" to be offended by my bare head. If a M->F trans person wants to compete in Female sports then they don't have a right to expect everyone else to say that's OK. Their rights don't trump the rights of others.
If someone had been born a jew but converted to Catholicism what are they now?
They are whatever they say they are. Nothing has changed other than their belief.
In the end gender will fade away, there will be sex differences as now, but how people dress, behave and the roles in society will not be proportional to their sex. Other than finding it confusing who to mate with to make babies, society will probably end up all the better for it.
Ta scotroutes - I see your point now
5plus8. What I asked was for you to be careful with your language because some might find it offensive. I get the point you are making but it does not sit well with me because it seems like you are denying the identity the trans person has now. thats all.
Ok - enough from me
*can you not see how insisting a transgender woman is a man could be offensive?*
I can see how someone might be offended by it, yes, so I'd be careful when I said it and to whom, but that doesn't stop it from being true. Truth doesn't care if anyone is offended by it.
I want to be nice to people (most of the time) so if they tell me how they want to be treated and referred to I'll probably go along with it.
If someone wants to believe in the Catholic god I'm happy with that, if they wish to believe in Hindu gods I'm happy with that too.
If they start to tell me I also have to believe in their gods, and go to church on Sundays and confess my 'sins' to a priest I'll refuse.
Trans people can dress how they want, call themselves what they want, act how they want - like everyone else they should do what they can to get the most out of life (without hurting others). They cannot tell me what to believe, and they cannot tell me that indisputable facts are wrong. Mammalian sex is binary, and no mammal can change from one sex to the other.
If you think this is wrong ask yourself this: If you wanted to create child and were looking for a partner would you look for someone of the opposite sex or would you seek a trans person?
See? You know the difference as well.
I think if ****s on the internet can't sort it out then it's clearly beyond any reason and should just be banned.
Like the loch Ness monster.
I think a lot of the language used on this thread and the obvious anger directed at trans folk shows that people are frustrated at something they cannot understand.
I was going to say 'If you refuse to differentiate biological sex and gender that's fine.' but actually, it's not fine. If you were to say 'Black people are intellectually inferior' that would also not be fine. No doubt you could produce 'science' to back it up but it's still not fine.
Sex classification may be binary but biology as it relates to the human mind is not. Societal norms and how they interact with the human mind are not binary. Almost nothing about this is binary except for the XX XY divide and, as the Caster Semenya case shows, even that's not binary.
It's complex. It's difficult. There are no easy answers.
Religion is a bad analogy. You're not saying that God doesn't exist. You're saying that the person who believes in God doesn't exist.
It is interesting though. I'm generally very careful how I speak to religious people. I always feel that if I bring them round to my way of thinking I will essentially tear down a significant part of their existence. I don't see the same level of care taken when people put their arguments about transgender people put forward.
Saying something that makes up a significant part of someone's identity doesn't exist, knowing that doing so is extremely painful for them, is an arsehole move of the highest order.
I'm done with this now. It's just making me sad.
I was going to stay out this car crash for fear of earning yet another ban but why should I stay silent? TJ and Bruce Wee are spot on, this has gone from a fair debate on a complex subject and is descending into a disgusting free for all. The language being used by some is disrespectful bordering on abusive and the willful ignorance shown akin to a flat earther discussing gravity. Then there is just complete made up bollocks (the whole nonsense about girls who enjoy historically masculine pursuits and traits being labelled trans). This is the kind of stuff I've seen being regurgitated by the ignorant MRA and general small minded types that remember the good old days when you could happily take the piss out of women and minorities without political correctness getting in the way of telling it how it is.
Is that who you want to be?
Said my piece, out.
If you were to say ‘Black people are intellectually inferior’ that would also not be fine. No doubt you could produce ‘science’ to back it up but it’s still not fine.
Yeah people have tried, but you can't show that, its also much more subjective. However lets assume its true- I wouldn't point it out until thick people started saying they should be allowed to run aeroplane safety, because of fairness and human rights and anti rascism. Then I would raise it. Its the same here, Trans is none of anyones business until it starts to encroach on other peoples lives.
I’m closing this thread until we get the chance to review it and some of the posts.
<mod>
OK. After catching up with this thread (and the companion piece on Mumsnet) we're reopening this discussion. If nothing else, it's a highly complex topic which merits discussion and shoving it under the carpet just displaces it until next time.
But.
I'll remind you that we are discussing actual real people here. There are trans people who are members of the forum and whilst it's been mostly civil there have been a number of posts in the last couple of pages which could be hurtful / offensive.
I refer readers to the forum T&Cs, specifically "No posts which, in the Moderators opinion, are likely to cause offence to either an individual, or group, whatever their gender, sexual inclination or ethnicity." Ie, you don't get to decide what is or isn't offensive, we do, and you don't get to victim-blame them for being hurt either.
Regardless of their opinions on this matter, anyone who cannot show a modicum of respect in their posts will be feeling the heavy end of the hammer for a few weeks.
Crack on, play nicely.
</mod>
Good, the lawnets posts in particular have been some of the most informative that I've ever read on here. Just keep it nice boys and girls.
Thanks Cougar. As you say, civilized discussion is necessary, especially as the OP is very much On Topic for a cycling forum. One thing's for sure - this issue isn't about to disappear.
I think I've made my viewpoint clear enough without attempting to/wishing to disrespect anyone.
Well I am sure I have offended a few, but as someone said:
the fact that you find something offensive is worse than meaningless; it’s an attempt to control others based entirely on your feelings.
I guess Cougar that's what you mean by victim blaming.
However live by the sword, die by the sword, so I fully expect the banhammer, its your forum, I can't argue with that.
Thank you squirrelking
live by the sword, die by the sword, so I fully expect the banhammer, its your forum, I can’t argue with that.
FWIW, you're not "special". A couple of others have already been bullied off/banned for having similar views.
Apologies for my uncalled for comment (now deleted).
Just frustrated to see a really positive discussion dragged down by some contributors.
And of course I wasn't helping that by being rude.
Thanks mods. This is a pretty good discussion on a contentious subject.
Sex classification may be binary but biology as it relates to the human mind is not. Societal norms and how they interact with the human mind are not binary
Ive read this half a dozen times, but I cannot make sense of it. Could you try again please BruceWee?
This weeks South Park (series 23, episode 7) touched on the trans female athlete debate, I'm not sure if depicting the trans athelte as Macho Man Randy Savage was the best choice but it got a laugh out of me. available on Comedy Central and Amazon Prime for those interested.