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“Look at Rachel Atherton as an example of a woman who was given a fairly level playing field with the men from a young age, she’s Pretty handy in a bike and has put in plenty of times faster than a chunk of the men’s field over the years if I’m not mistaken.”
You’re completely mistaken. Rachel is an amazing DH MTBer but she’s significantly slower than all the junior men (short of big crashes or mechanicals) at every race, and even further behind the seniors.
Curtain shopping.
Is she up for it? Let her race.
Would she rather cut her wrists? Don’t let her race.
As I said, false. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/live-results-vallnord-dh-world-cup-2019.html
Loic bruni 4:11, racherl atherton 5:00 mins.
She is quicker than the 56th fastest man at Vallnord, and would not have placed 20th in the junior men.(there were only 20 junior men)
(She is amazing, and I admire her more than the blokes, I prefer watching the womens dh and talk about it all the time when its on, but its just a fact, they are not as good as the men)
She's still awesome though!
And not a massive dick. Like McKinnon.
Fully, she is one my heroes.
I follow Graham Linehan (father ted writer) on twitter and he has been very vocal on this , sometimes possibly gone to far but he has calmed down a bit lately and seems to make his point better now . Anyway he retweeted a thread the other day where someone compared gay rights to trans rights, the gist was gay rights required nothing from straight people , all gay people were asking was for the same rights as straight people , marry the person they love etc etc . how can you argue with that ? Trans rights requires non trans people to go along with a truth they may not understand or believe and those people are normally women having trans women wanting to use women only spaces. That may be a toilet or something like a sporting competition .
There needs to be an honest and grown up discussion about it and an acknowledgement that when it comes to sport in order to maintain fairness there may well need to be a form of discrimination . The problem is when idiots like Piers Morgan get involved the conversation turns toxic and i would imagine a trans kid who for competing at the Olympics is the last thing on their mind and are just trying to work things out in their head could feel like the world is against them .
Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?
This. Job jobbed.
The recent women’s World marathon record makes her the 15th fastest athlete of any gender ever over that distance. Why, if she can achieve that now and it’s down to gender have women not permanently been in the top 20?
Not sure where this nugget of nonsense came from. It's impressive, but wouldn't make top 2000 mens fastest times over that distance.
I don't follow the trans rights movement closely, does anyone know if there is unity of opinion behind McKinnon's stance or do some others see her as counter-productive to the cause?
She is amazing, and I admire her more than the blokes, I prefer watching the womens dh and talk about it all the time when its on, but its just a fact, they are not as good as the men
I'd argue that it isn't about being "good", it's that physiologically, they don't have the power to carry the speed, I'm pretty sure if it were possible to stick Rachel Atherton's brain and skills into the 56th quickest male DH riders body, he'd go a damn sight quicker!
In all sports, it's not about being "good" it's about the physical "grrr" that years of naturally produced testosterone doping will give you.
13 minutes slower.
She is as “good”. She’s not as fast. There are other measures of good. Adjusting for gender, she may well be the best. That’s the point of a covariate. Gender is one such covariate And an important one in many disciplines. But If you take her magnitude or supremacy over others in her class, she could be the best.
For the record, I wouldn’t be seen dead on a course she rides. Actually dead is probably the right adjective. I probably would be if I rode one!
“She is as “good”. She’s not as fast.”
I think this is a great point - her save last year off the big rock drop at Mont Sainte Anne was miraculous!
But when winning or losing is all about a time, then you can’t ignore the genetic advantage conferred by being male, or to a lesser degree intersex, or a historical male who has transitioned to female. I’m an awful non-competing powerlifter (I enjoy the challenge and it’s stopping me from feeling feeble as I get older) and the difference between men and women is vast, even in the non-tested (ie using PEDs) federations.
I don’t know of how the powerlifting feds (of which there are literally hundreds) deal with transgender issues, I’ve yet to hear of anyone competing post-transition. I have come across one very interesting character who seems a great force for all things good in this complex world, called Janae Marie Kroc, who’s a gender-fluid lifter and was a world record holder when she was competing as a man.
WTF has happened to common sense and the reality of genetics and chromosomes. The fact is that genuine dedicated female athletes are getting screwed over by everybody involved in the sport they love, it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed, average male athletes who can't get in the top 50 can trans into a record breaker, if half the field becomes trans what would be the point of a genuine female taking part. So yet again another trans is dominating, what a surprise. A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance, the way its going every gold medal will have an adams apple above it.
Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?
This. Job jobbed.
46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance
Thing is, it’s not just drugs/number matching. There’s the brain wiring too. By nature men are greater risk-takers so for example, in a road race a man’s brain may decide to lunge for an opening in the sprint that a woman may deem to risky
It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women
Womens marathon world record time is 2:14:04.
This is a link to show that the 2:14:04 is not the 15th fastest of all time. Page 10 shows the 1000th fastest time, go to page 20 and obviously 2000 fastest time. All inside 2:14. Which isn't to demean the ladies world record, but just wanted to show that in terms of male/female sporting comparisons, its not the 15th fastest of all time.
https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior?page=10
it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed
This is an excellent point.
I'm sure a lot of men and women are reading about this and thinking (adopts Seinfeld voice): "Really?"
It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women
Big physical component to this as well as the mental one which you rightly point out though.
Also, talent pool is much bigger in men's field and risk arguably brings greater reward.
This book is well worth a read for those interested in the genetics, biology, and nature v nurture debates.
In my opinion, regardless of current testosterone levels, a transgender athlete can never compete fairly as a female as there's just too much gained from when they were male.
Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively? Possibly she has been enabled by others in the field to convince her she is a woman, she also behaves aggressively in a very masculine way..
46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
/blockquote>From your link:
After her death a forensic test on body cells obtained from her clothing showed signs of a Y-chromosome in her DNA. She might have been a genetic mosaic, having cells with either 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male) chromosomes,
But who cares, if she's XX she competes in the XX category. No ambiguity there, that's be beauty of taking gender out of it and letting chromosomal makeup be the sole arbiter.
it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed
Absolutely this.
Only 22 runners in the men's race finished faster than Kosgei, whose time would have been a men's world record in 1964.
Taken from here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304
So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.
Based on the above posts I completely misread it, as 22 in the men's race vs 22 in the same day's
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.
She was using the Nike Vaporfly which are believed to improve running economy by 4%, so the comment about it beating the men's 1964 record isn't an accurate comparison.
Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively?
Because she's a bully masquerading as a victim.
She’s playing both poacher and gamekeeper simultaneously and because she’s playing the trans card from both sides, she’s untouchable. She has set this up in such a way as she cannot be criticized.
It's quite clever and manipulative.
It’s simple, take gender out of it because that’s fluid.Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.
or some other catagorisation, forget gender.
Would allow women to compete meaningfully with men of the same same catagorisaton.
Might then make for better, and more watcheable, competition as matches would be closer and therefore more exciting to watch, and therefore closer the 'pay gap'
Would dramatically reduce Serena Williams earning capacity though as she would be in one of the lower categories !
Because she’s a bully masquerading as a victim.
She also writes her own rules a she has done her 'PHD' in this area, essentially on herself. Mind you its sociology so it hardly counts.
I think it would be interesting to hear what the LGBTQ+ community (particularly F-->M trans people) think of all of this. I haven't heard such commentary on this.
She is also an arsehole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_McKinnon
In August 2019, in relation to the death of American billionaire David Koch, McKinnon tweeted that "it’s okay to be happy, even celebrate, when bad people die".[22] A respondent, believed to be alluding to the terminal illness of Magdalen Berns (a feminist commentator on YouTube who has been characterised as transphobic),[23] asked if McKinnon "thought it was OK to celebrate the death of a young person suffering from an incurable brain tumor" (quoting the account of the Charleston The Post and Courier). McKinnon replied: "if they’re a trash human actively trying to harm marginalized people because of who they are? I think it’s justified". The exchange provoked a petition seeking McKinnon's public apology.[8][24][25]
Basically if your beliefs don't align with hers then she is happy if you die. This is not an equality moral stance I recognize, and will lead to further deaths. Killing is wrong, end of. I think she is wrong, and fits the 1980's playground definition of 'mental'.
In fact what she is doing is 'othering' those who don't agree with her. Which is exactly how Trans people are marginalized.
She is also an arsehole
See also celebrating the recent death of Magdalen Berns.
Yea that's in the thing I linked too. Nasty person.
I’m only halfway through this article but it seems well worth reading:
https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
Does she have to take any hormone drugs to be enable to compete?
Ban these & solve some arguments.
Even has the audacity to call Dawn Orwick a sore loser, adding insult to injury just shows what a piece of shit she? is, Dawn earned her stripes, she didn't steal them, can anyone blame her for not embracing a cheating scumbag who feels proud of shooting fish in a barrel achievements.
TBH, I'm not sure that the 35-39 Masters category podium would normally get this kind of attention, and perhaps it's best if it reverts to this state and she disappears back into obscurity and mediocrity.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the whole Trans thing - I mean i get it, life is potentially quite shitty for people who genuinely feel they were born the wrong gender and want to identify as a different one.
But is this fair for anyone? This person is biologically 100% male, she absolutely has the right to change her name to Rachel and identify as female, but competing in an athletic contest with other competitors who were born 100% female strikes me as just plainly wrong.
She is also an arsehole
That's putting it mildly!
In the last week McKinnon has:
Accused the woman she beat of 'unsportsmanlike' behaviour and reported her to the authorities.
Accused another female cyclist (interviewed by the BBC) of transphobia and reported her.
Celebrated the death of journalist of Deborah Orr.
I'm saying no more on this thread, other than to provide a link to this article on T-Nation.
It's a comprehensive take on the situation, covering many sports, and includes a break down of the various rules and regulations.
Trans Athletes: The Death Of Women's Sports Fairness Gone Too Far
Check this piece of quality trolling.
https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1186681785813475328
😀 FFS!
You really need to read more of "Titania"s tweets 🙂
I have been for the last five minutes. I get it now 😀
Hook. Line. Sinker.
oh, its a joik!
We've made Mumsnet!
... there's a particularly good post from "BuzzShitbagBobbly"* at Wed 23-Oct-19 18:45:23
*They have much better user names than us - we need to up our game
thegreatape
Member
I have been for the last five minutes. I get it now 😀
#metoo
Also this guy https://twitter.com/JarvisDupont
This is ****ing inspired.
https://twitter.com/JarvisDupont/status/1031874597690466306
> I think Semenya has been treated unfairly, because whatever her specific physiology (and despite rumours and partial leaks, the exact details of her condition have not been made public) I believe she is legally a woman, so she should be able to compete in that category, as currently defined. It seems perverse to force her to medicate to limit her natural abilities.
You are wrong.
Semenya's physiology is public and there is no doubt.
Things we know without any doubt:
* Semenya has XY chromosomes (source: CAS 2018/O/5794)
* Semenya has testes (ibid)
* We know that at the 2013 women's World Championship there were NO athletes with abnormal levels of T, as a result of IAAF regulations requiring T suppression at that time. (source: Serum androgen levels etc - Bermon & Garnier). Caster Semenya (proven in court to have testes) and Francine Niyonsaba (believed to have testes) were absent from this
* We know that at the 2011 World Championship the absolute value of the highest free testosterone value was precisely 469.3 pmol/l, and that mean free *male* testosterone for age 25-39 is 295 pmol/l, with a standard distribution of 108 pmol/l, (Tremso Study: Svartberg et al) and hence assuming a normal distribution, and that this places this 'female' athlete at the 95th *male* percentile, i.e. 'very high male testosterone levels'
* We do not for sure who this testosterone reading belongs to, but the list of 800m runners in 2011 is online, and includes Caster Semenya, but NONE of the other suspected XY 800m athletes (i.e. Niyonsaba, Wambui, etc.). It is therefore highly likely that this reading belonged to Caster Semenya, and that Caster Semenya possesses high male levels of testosterone, for unsurprising reasons, i.e. testes
* We do know of course that women (the kind with ovaries) can produce high levels of testosterone, this occurs in PCOS (which is defined at a level exceeding roughly 1/15 of the suspected Semenya reading), and ovarian tumours. Neither condition is consistent with competing successfully in athletics (testosterone is produced in adipose tissue, typically in PCOS).
* We know that Semenya is missing the SRD5A2 enzyme (Source: CAS etc., ibid.) as a result of a somewhat well-studied genetic mutation. SRD5A2 is one of three enzymes (SRD5A1/2/3) responsible for the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). (The SRD5A3 enzyme is found in all tissues in the human body, while SRD5A1 and SRD5A2 are specific to different body parts)
* The lack of the SRD5A2 enzyme from the foetal prostate as a result of this specific genetic mutation causes in the birth defect where XY males are born with external genitals that appear female. This is because DHT is an androgen, androgenising the genitalia, and also causing things like body hair. In less developed medical systems, this can cause the infant to be assigned female at birth.
* Although DHT is an androgen there is consensus whether a person such as Semenya, who seem to have high male T levels, but low DHT, is disadvantage vis-a-vis *male* athletes. (CAS etc., ibid.)
* However given that Semenya possesses high male testosterone, produced in the testes, it is certain that Semenya possesses an enormous biological advantage w.r.t. *female* athletes, whose average T levels are 1/50 of Semenya's.
* We know that while infants with Semenya's condition (5-ARD2) are undervirilised at infancy, the working SRD5A1 enzyme virilises them at puberty.
* We know that adults with 5-ARD2 who are assigned male at birth always maintain that gender identity in adulthood, while many adults with 5-ARD2 who were assigned female at birth are likely to change to male after puberty (e.g., Guevedoces in the Dominical Republic
* We know that while Caster Semenya has the legal status of 'female', Caster Semenya married a woman wearing traditional male clothing, and during adolescence, Semenya's gender identity has been ambiguous tending towards male
So to the extent that Caster Semenya's natural abilities are natural, they are natural because of testes....
(Note that in the 1930s, Mary Weston was competing and winning as female with this condition. He discovered that he was intersex, and later married a woman and had children. It is likely given Caster Semenya's relatively mild intersex condition (i.e. Caster Semenya is only a somewhat undervirilised biological male, not for example a completely unvirilised biological male), that
this would also be possible.)
I understand that the UCI use the same regulations as the IOC (which I think are being revised) broadly those regs are (for men transitioning to women)
1. Identify as a woman, that identification cannot be changed for sporting purposes for 4 years.
2. Athlete must demonstrate that her testosterone levels is below the regulated level for at least a year prior to first competition, and that will be subject to individual investigation should they deem it necessary on a case by case basis and be sport dependent.
3. Total testosterone must stay below the regulated level for the entirety of her time in competition
4. Athletes may be tested at any time, and suspended if non compliant.
If McKinnon meets that, then she's free to compete. Oh, and comparing Rachel Atherton (or any female athlete) to male athletes misses the point somewhat.
Oh, and comparing Rachel Atherton (or any female athlete) to male athletes misses the point somewhat.
In what way?
a few 'woke bros', but generally good natured.
Seems legit.
In what way?
It offers no illumination or insight into either event. You may as well compare an Olympic men's figure skater to a England Rugby forward*
*edit, I don't anything about Rugby, those are the house sized ones, right?
It offers no illumination or insight into either event. You may as well compare an Olympic men’s figure skater to a England Rugby forward.
The comparison was of male and female athletes in the same discipline.
Males are, as a result of those pesky immutable facts, physically very different to women. Bone structure, ability to gain muscle mass and stuff like that. In the same event, women's times are slower, heights are lower, performance is lower powered. Because, you know, science.
Saying "I'm a woman now" and taking the medals, knowing it's primarily because of the physical advantages that male puberty has bestowed upon you, takes a remarkably egotistical character. A nasty, narcissistic one, some might say.
I guess there are many people, and me, that think it does offer insight into how womens and mens performance in the same sport under the same circumstances, with the same kit and the same training differs somewhat. It seems very illuminating to me, yet, I'm interested in why you think it doesn't, always happy to be proven wrong. do you think you could explain a bit more?
I don’t anything about Rugby
Brian Moore does. His article on this is behind a paywall, but the headline says enough, I feel.
Rugby is rightly an inclusive sport but until research disproves safety risk, transgender women should only play non-contact
Qualified solicitor, and rugby referee as well as a player.
A nasty, narcissistic one, some might say
And there's the plaguey rub. Lots of sportsmen and women are nasty narcissistic egomaniacs, it's what makes them (sometimes) the great athletes we all admire. All the athlete has to do is abide by the rules. If McKinnon has then that's a problem for the UCI, not her individually. If she hasn't, then her medal will be stripped, everyone will be bumped up a place, and she'll no doubt take to tweeting angrily...and the world will turn.
Saying “I’m a woman now” and taking the medals
The rules (as they stand currently) make that difficult to the point of absurdity for anyone who's not transitioning.
An why comparing Rachel Atherton to the men is irrelevant?
do you think you could explain a bit more?
How many times have you heard Rob Warner compare Aaron's times to Rachel, as opposed to the other way around? Why are the women's times compared to men times? I understand the temptation, especially in events where men and women compete on the same course in separate events, but it's patronising (in the truest sense of the word). I know it's largely not meant to be, but it is. Essentially it's suggesting that women's competition is only valid if compared to that of mens, rather than it being an expression of athleticism by itself
I pass someone every morning that has hair like this - don't know if he identifies as trans or anything and not bothered, and he seems to be 'fairly' comfortable in his skin - not sure this will do him/her any favours if it gets major publicity.
How many times have you heard Rob Warner compare Aaron’s times to Rachel, as opposed to the other way around? Why are the women’s times compared to men times? I understand the temptation, especially in events where men and women compete on the same course in separate events, but it’s patronising (in the truest sense of the word). I know it’s largely not meant to be, but it is. Essentially it’s suggesting that women’s competition is only valid if compared to that of mens, rather than it being an expression of athleticism by itself
All very valid but for the purposes of this thread the comparison between mens and womens sport of the same discipline is very relevant.
Essentially it’s suggesting that women’s competition is only valid if compared to that of mens, rather than it being an expression of athleticism by itself
No one is suggesting that.
It's a comparison to show the physiological differences between male and female athletes.
How on earth can she stand on the top step of the podium in a rainbow jersey and not feel embarrassment is beyond me. It's a bit like me being allowed to compete against the under 15s at my local club, then standing round celebrating whilst everyone just roles their eyes.
No one is suggesting that.
Proof it it was ever needed that some folk can't hold two concepts in the minds at the same time.
Mckinnon is one subject
comparing men and women in the same sport is a different one on the same thread Some people on this thread have made this point.
For those that don’t race TTs, you may be interested to know that there are standards for male and female at every age and distance. Riding to standard gives a time or distance above or below standard, and awards and placing are given based on this standard. The difference between male and female is about 20 years (and the same for trike to bike). So my 52yo standard is about the same as a 31yo female. Of course there are prizes for fastest and furthest, but placings based on standard as well.
I fail to note a huge difference between the East German female athletes forced to undergo virilisation under androgen doping (many with long-term health implications) and the reverse transition from male to female. Virilisation is not, sadly completely reversible.
Does it say ‘Sport is a Man’s Right’ on those shorts?
When I hear something like RA’s times being compared to the men’s I assume it’s to put into context how close she is despite the inherent disadvantage she has of being littler/lighter. Could be wrong of course, but I take it as them saying ‘that’s how good she is’ not ‘meh, the men are still much better’.
We know that while Caster Semenya has the legal status of ‘female’, Caster Semenya married a woman wearing traditional male clothing...
Well, evidence like that changes everything...
The point is, regardless of Semenya's specific physiology, she satisfied the existing criteria to race as a woman. I think that compelling her to use medication to limit her natural ability, if she wants to continue racing in her existing category is unfair and ethically dubious. There's a legitimate debate to be had about how you classify athletes, but you need to have a full and open discussion about how you do that, and potentially replace the existing male/female categories with something else, instead of applying a fudge to try and preserve a categorisation system that clearly doesn't work for everybody in its current form.
But who cares, if she’s XX she competes in the XX category. No ambiguity there, that’s be beauty of taking gender out of it and letting chromosomal makeup be the sole arbiter.
Chromosomal category might be part of a new system, but I don't know if it would be sufficient on its own. I believe there are quite a number of different chromosomal disorders (on both the male and female spectra) but I don't know enough about it to understand if you could use them to form practical categories.
How on earth can she stand on the top step of the podium in a rainbow jersey and not feel embarrassment is beyond me
Lance Armstrong managed it...
I don’t follow the trans rights movement closely, does anyone know if there is unity of opinion behind McKinnon’s stance or do some others see her as counter-productive to the cause?
I don't follow it so can't claim there to be unity, but from what I can see from those I know/am connected to, her behaviour seems to be viewed as counter productive.
Well, evidence like that changes everything…
If you ignore all the other points I made....
The point is, regardless of Semenya’s specific physiology, she satisfied the existing criteria to race as a woman. I think that compelling her to use medication to limit her natural ability, if she wants to continue racing in her existing category is unfair and ethically dubious. There’s a legitimate debate to be had about how you classify athletes, but you need to have a full and open discussion about how you do that, and potentially replace the existing male/female categories with something else, instead of applying a fudge to try and preserve a categorisation system that clearly doesn’t work for everybody in its current form.
That depends on what you mean by unfair.
It is unfair for me to race against 7-year-olds, for example, because I am not a 7 year old.
If you want to decide whether it is unfair or not in the case of Caster Semenya then you need to determine first what the difference between the 'male' and 'female' classes are in a sporting context.
And the obvious answer to that is 'possessing testes', since testicles produce testosterone, which is the major performance-enhancing steroid.
There really aren't many good alternative answers to this.
As far as 'natural ability' goes, the better answer would be that Caster Semenya belongs in the male category, and leave things at that.
However this seems to be difficult legally, in that Semenya's birth certificate says 'female'. So they tried a different approach.
Clearly you can only deal with these situations as they arise and I imagine that the rules were made with good intentions, but when you have someone who possesses normally-functioning testes in the women's race it makes a mockery of the sport.
It’s a bit like me being allowed to compete against the under 15s at my local club, then standing round celebrating whilst everyone just roles their eyes.
It is unfair for me to race against 7-year-olds, for example, because I am not a 7 year old.
Age is just a social construct.*
*Actually, I'd better make it clear that I don't believe that. It is, however, a comment I've read.
I think in real life, people with trans/intersex characteristics should be treated with compassion and understanding to help them achieve the same quality of life as anyone would want.
Once we enter into the world of sport, then it remains an issue bigger than sport can really cope with. Unfortunately, most sports administrators are just not really qualified to judge how to marry the social pressure to be inclusive with the need for level playing fields. I certainly do not envy them.
Funnily enough, I just watched Robert Millar's win in the Pyrenees in the 1989 Tour. True quality performance. It is no secret now that Robert became Philipa and I am glad to see Philipa still can write about the sport and I hope has found her peace. However, if Philipa raced in the women's races, I would certainly feel uncomfortable about what the other competitors had to face. Perhaps, trans or intersex should be a separate category in terms of sport? (I admit there will always be outliers in any category, and many athletes are genetic freaks in terms of hormones etc., but you have to try to draw lines in some common sense way...)
That depends on what you mean by unfair
What I wrote. Disqualifying someone from an existing category (for which they satisfy the criteria) by introducing a fudged requirement mandating unnecessary medication to limit performance.
There's a valid case for re-examining how we categorise athletes, but the IAAF didn't do that properly, resulting in a very poor outcome for Semenya and a number of other athletes.
You lot are so behind the time.
Channel 4 had this covered way back in the nineties - did nobody ever watch Trans World Sport on a Saturday morning after rolling in from a good night out?
------I'll get me coat ;o)
How on earth can she stand on the top step of the podium in a rainbow jersey and not feel embarrassment is beyond me.
I'd imagine being a narcissist helps.
Mumsnet claiming this photo says it all
Maybe resting posture should be the determinant?
LOL. Yeah, pretty obvious in that one. However, we do have to be careful not to judge simply on physical appearance (TBH, I think that's one of the reasons we have this current mess). For instance, tall folk might gravitate towards basketball but there might still be one or two players who are unusually tall and would stand out in much the same way. Interesting sitting pose though. 😉