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Speaking before the event, McKinnon told Sky News: “By preventing trans women from competing or requiring them to take medication, you’re denying their human rights.”
Trans athletes should (of course!) be able to compete in the sports they wish to compete in. However, I don’t believe anyone has a human right to compete in the category of their own choosing, and to have male to female trans athletes to compete in women’s events is unfair. Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
In effect, it already is, she could definitely compete in the men's category if she chose.
This will rumble on and on until someone puts a formal definition of what female is from the perspective of sporting competition.
Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
[Devil's Advocate Mode] Then she'd stand no chance of winning & she's not a man [/Devil's Advocate Mode]
This is a discussion that needs to be had - sooner rather than later, if I was a woman at this event & she turned up I'm sure I'd not race & protest her participation.
The biggest problem is when anyone tries to discuss or talk about women's rights they are shouted down as transphobic, which doesn't help anyone.
I didn't realise until yesterday, NZ downhiller Kate Weatherly is a trans athlete.
I've read the article, but just looking at the pic you have to think "is that looking likely to be a fair fight" ? The answer is.... No, not really.
I'm quite blinkered on the whole transitioning thing and was if i'm honest a little traumatised by watching the 'female' on Celebrity Masterchef recently.... So forgive me for being a bit ignorant/narrow minded.
But in competition like this, i'm struggling.
Legally still a man in the UK (no GRC). Is that correct?
There needs to be three categories.
[Devil’s Advocate Mode] Then she’d stand no chance of winning & she’s not a man [/Devil’s Advocate Mode]
If I recall correctly then before transitioning they did compete as male, and were mediocre at best.
Certainly doesn't seem like a level playing field does it?
So forgive me for being a bit ignorant/narrow minded.
why?
It's not like there's no readily available sources of information about the issues affecting trans people and being narrow minded is just saying you are intolerant of people not like you.
Ross Tucker is worth reading on this.
https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1186461132095012864?s=19
[Devil’s Advocate Mode] Then she’d stand no chance of winning [...] [/Devil’s Advocate Mode]
Just like the vast majority of all other humans then.
That’s not a reason to automatically allow her to compete in the Female category.
And yes, this deserves addressing. Ignoring it because it’s hard to address is harming the trans population, and exposing the female population to new potential threats.
It’s hard because there’s a subset of folk who will use any well intentioned rulings for their own ends. Men accessing toilets and changing rooms by declaring “I’m a woman” and removing those as safe spaces? It’s already happening.
The rights of the trans folk are important. The rights of the (much larger) female folk need protection too. Because often, men are arses.
Ignoring it because it’s hard does everyone a disservice, and puts folk at risk.
Edit: for avoidance of doubt... I have no issues with Rachel winning. It’s ok in terms of what the rules of the sport say right now, so as valid as any other win. But I do think the rules need review.
why?
It’s not like there’s no readily available sources of information about the issues affecting trans people and being narrow minded is just saying you are intolerant of people not like you.
Dont forgive me then 🙂
There needs to be three categories.
That wouldn't work either, as women who identify as men would suffer the same disadvantages against men who identify as women. IMHO there needs to be clear definition in sport, if you are biologically (as in you're chromosome makeup is XY) a man you compete against men, if you are biologically a woman (as in you're chromosome makeup is XX) you compete against women.
If you identify as the opposite sex (keeping it simple here as there appears to be about 100 different identities nowadays) then you compete in the category of which you were born, irrespective of how you wish to identify. Otherwise women's sport will become and absolute farce with trans people who wouldn't cut it in men's sport ultimately dominating.
Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels. I don't see it happening in athletics because of that, but it's clearly something the UCI are too delicate to combat - although sock length is vitally important.
As far as I know, and feel free to correct me, even those who are trans still have the same chromosome makeup they were born with.
Can we see a world though where someone actively changes gender purely to win ? Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
This is an issue for women to decide. It is patronising in the least for men to be discussing let alone making decisions on who should be eligible to compete in the womens category.
The biggest problem is when anyone tries to discuss or talk about women’s rights they are shouted down as transphobic, which doesn’t help anyone
Totally agree and McKinnon seems especially good at doing this.
If I was a woman competing against her I'd be annoyed, no way is it fair on them. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with it now due to what defines a man or a woman being such a huge grey area these days!
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
The world has gone mad - it has nothing to do with human rights just having a level paying field.
There are people at foot using is to drive personal agendas. In comparison, what ever Lance did with performance enhancement becomes trivial.
“Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels”
Semenya is not biologically female, she’s intersex.
It’s a big issue in sport. Yes, all top athletes have inherent genetic advantages but there are a lot of sports where male or intersex characteristics give you a clear advantage over a similarly gifted female athlete.
And just as some PEDs cause permanent changes, so developing male causes changes that cannot be undone by manipulating hormone level, giving an unfair advantage.
Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
No operation necessary.
Intersex is a different scenario. We really shouldn't conflate the two.
Can we see a world though where someone actively changes gender purely to win ? Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
To be honest, in the world we live in today I can see it happening.
Semenya is not biologically female, she’s intersex.
Sorry about that, my mistake, so I'll hold my hands up.
So we need four categories then.
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
Provided they complied with the rules, yes. You know that you don't just have to say "I'm a woman now" and then wander into the womens' start line, right?
if you are biologically a woman (as in you’re chromosome makeup is XX) you compete against women
So the women's category get won by trans male athletes?
Men accessing toilets and changing rooms by declaring “I’m a woman” and removing those as safe spaces? It’s already happening.
Where?
This is an issue for women to decide. It is patronising in the least for men to be discussing let alone making decisions on who should be eligible to compete in the womens category.
Women have a history of being told how to do things by men & a lot of them see male to female trans athletes as an extension of this. Women have had to fight hard to get the rights they have got in the western world these days & some see this as another battle for their rights.
Provided they complied with the rules, yes
What's the rules ?
Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels.
2 points of reference here.
1. Semenya has an XY chromosome.
2. Whilst they inevitably get drawn into the same discussion, intersex and trans are different issues and so should be kept separate.
All three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex (have XY chromosomes). https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/
@ miketually.
Have a google for jonathan/jessica yaniv.
Interesting reading.
You know that you don’t just have to say “I’m a woman now” and then wander into the womens’ start line, right?
Actually, I believe some states in the US are actually allowing that. I'm sure there's some high school sports (which is a big thing in the US) being dominated by men who are simply saying they identify as women, as the state law allows that.
I 100% support peoples right to choose, but it cannot be a subject where all debate is shouted down as TERFs or whatever.
As far as sports go, governing bodies are setting rules that mean a lot more than just self id. However, reducing testosterone levels for just 12 months prior to competition does not counter many years of physical development during adolescence etc.
Actually, I believe some states in the US are actually allowing that. I’m sure there’s some high school sports (which is a big thing in the US) being dominated by men who are simply saying they identify as women, as the state law allows that.
Do you have any references to support that? I've heard similar but never from a reliable source (no insult intended).
Be much more sensible to just get rid of the categories full stop and force teams nations sponsors who ever to include female athletes at a good ratio (say 1:1) until such point as you'd achieve a reasonable ratio on merit alone.
Gender seems to me to have a lot less to do with performance than funding, support, training attitudes etc all of which are heavily skewed in favour of male athletes and will continue to be until you remove the distinction.
The gender gap in performance is shinking, do we think that's down to the physical difference between sexes getting less or the fact they're slowly being treated more similarly?
It's a complicated subject - there definitely needs to be more discussion at the top level, the topic of additional categories for trans athletes might be a touchy one though, as it's effectively segregating them from their "sex" class in sporting events, intersex athletes too, but I don't see where the "fair" split could be...
Even with testosterone limits to bring trans athletes back on par with non-trans competitors isn't really evening things out, a quote from Rachel McKinnon highlighted that her body hadn't produced testosterone for over 10 years... problem there is it's hard to negate any performance advantage of increased levels of testosterone during the 20-odd years of her physiological development prior to that.
Whichever way they divvy up the classes someone's going to be disadvantaged
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
Pippa York can of course compete as a woman. The fact that she has given up competitive cycling should be a relief to any veteran female cyclist. She’d probably still beat me.
If you didn’t know, Before Bradley and their ilk, she was Britain’s most successful male cyclist.
Minefield, socially and more importantly, scientifically. The article about Kate Weatherley is surprisingly well-balanced
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/
I have little time for McKinnon, however.
So how would this work in a sport like boxing?
Born male, identified as female and competes as a female. Would that also be fair?
I've absolutely no idea what the answer is but I don't have any time for McKinnon purely down to her attitude!
It's simple, take gender out of it because that's fluid.
Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.
'XX' and 'other'. Problem goes away.
So how would this work in a sport like boxing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
Male puberty fundamentally changes the body.
I’ve absolutely no idea what the answer is but I don’t have any time for McKinnon purely down to her attitude!
Agreed, when she started accusing her competitors of being 'irrational' I lost any sympathy.
I think there's a bigger question here - what 'right' do people have to be able to compete in professional sport? Why does a category even need to exist? How far down the road do we go? Do I deserve a special 'Injury prone, 36 year old, father of 1, Scots-Italian heritage, etc. etc*' category so that I can make a living out of cycling too?
*insert however many other criteria would be required to guarantee me win, quite a lot I suspect...
Why cant you just have male and female. If your trans, intersex or whatever then you cant compete.
Its not stopping someone competing in a sport at a non professional level.
Why cant you just have male and female.
Define "female".
That's the initial problem right there.
If your trans, intersex or whatever then you cant compete.
If you're trans, intersex whatever you can compete - it just has to be against men - and yes you'll be at a disadvantage instead of an advantage which is a shame, but such is life.
Mckinnon doesn't help clarify the issue much - she's a gift to those of a transphobic disposition, like a right wing parody of an entitled trans athlete.
Ultimately the binary biological sex classification is the utilitarian solution for sports - although whether governing bodies can be expected to lay down the law like that I doubt, you generally can't look to outfits like the IOC or UCI for that sort of leadership (tbf it's asking a lot as it is a societal issue)
Define “female”.
That’s the initial problem right there.
xx chromosome
This is medical science ****ing people up. Just because you can use surgery and hormones to changes someone's appearance and demeanor doesn't mean you should.
It stems from psychology originally, which has a massive replication crisis, so who can tell if their theories are true or not. It is irresponsible.
Now changing your appearance and demeanor because you want to, is a different matter, we should all have the choice, but validating those changes as conforming to the other is just delusional.
Its not stopping someone competing in a sport at a non professional level.
It absolutely would.
Do you have any references to support that? I’ve heard similar but never from a reliable source (no insult intended).
If you’re trans, intersex whatever you can compete – it just has to be against men – and yes you’ll be at a disadvantage instead of an advantage which is a shame, but such is life.
The point is why can't non-binary people compete against non binary people and let the men compete with men, and women compete with women?
The vast majority of non-binary people are still male or female, regardless of what they believe. I fully respect their belief but they don't have a right to have everyone else believe it too. Just like religious beliefs really.
The point is why can’t non-binary people compete against non binary people and let the men compete with men, and women compete with women?
Because a man who identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a woman still has a basic biomechanical advantage over any woman who now identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a man.
but they don’t have a right to have everyone else believe it too. Just like religious beliefs really
.... or dietary choices, life style choices or anything else for that matter.
Unfortunately it's now the way of the world we live in and to be honest I feel a bit concerned about the future that lies ahead for my 3 young boys
Because a man who identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a woman still has a basic biomechanical advantage over any woman who now identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a man.
I think you misread me, I agree entirely. I am saying that if you have gone through this procedure then compete in a new class, TRANS.
Because a man who identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a woman still has a basic biomechanical advantage over any woman who now identifies as or has taken medical procedures/ drugs to be a man.
Right. but at the moment the latter have to compete with men.
Because they are still men.
The vast majority of non-binary people are still male or female, regardless of what they believe. I fully respect their belief but they don’t have a right to have everyone else believe it too. Just like religious beliefs really.
I understand what you're getting at. I just wonder if the difference is that if you passively do not believe in someone else's religion it has no effect on them following that religion (for the most part, bar the odd point of contention).
If you do not believe in someone's gender, that can place serious day-to-day constraints on their ability to live a full and normal life. It would affect schooling, sports clubs, use of public amemities, participation in events etc.
McKinnon is acting like a dick and should be told to gtf if she/he thinks that it is fair to enter a race under the female catagory, its utterly absurd that she expects to compete in female events with a lifetime of previous testosterone abuse as a male athlete before declaring he is now female.
Just gtf and stop being a dick.
Indeed. XXY? Who will you race against? I have my own genetic subclass MC1-R homozygous, XY and plenty of others. It’s very complex. I’m of the personal opinion that gender reassignment prior to puberty is reasonable for trans females to compete. One could police this based on Tanner staging. I think puberty will always confer an advantage. Just ask the former East German female athletes. For trans male, there is no issue, other than a TUE for testosterone use. Which is a prohibited substance exogenously.
Of course should I be unfortunate enough to suffer and be treated for prostrate cancer, I might have to consider the 60yo female TT distance records. Not really, but the treatment is the same as that which McKinnon is receiving.
It's an interesting debate, for sure. It's clear to me that McKinnon is operating within vastly different sporting parameters to most of the female category. It doesn't look fair to me.
Sport is great because it represents the pinnacle of human physical achievement, pushing boundaries and going higher, further, faster. Which is all great - although I'll never be the fastest cyclist in the world, and nor will *any* woman (Caveat: in some ultra-endurance events there are women who probably outpace men). That doesn't stop me loving sport, though. Because of course there are other reasons why sport is good - for peoples' physical health, social, mental wellbeing etc. That's the real reason I like sport.
Being female is a handicap in most sport, but we as a society have created a female category to overcome that. So now we have a situation where female athletes can have something to train for, can still strive for excellence, and inspire others. Sport is good, and sportspeople help to promote goodness in the world.
As a society we have to decide whether the rights of a small minority of intersex or trans people are more important than the rights of all other women. Ironically McKinnon's 'sport is a human right' mantra might well come back to bite her when we all realise the vast majority of women also have that right.
Of course should I be unfortunate enough to suffer and be treated for prostrate cancer, I might have to consider the 60yo female TT distance records. Not really, but the treatment is the same as that which McKinnon is receiving.
I would love someone to do this just to prove that McKinnon is being an asshat, and to be totally open about it.
It would make for an interesting sports science study. Most of which are done as static bike 10 mile TTs. McKinnon is vet champion on the track, which is not really an endurance discipline. But yes, there is a valid experiment there.
It is, possible, however that the cancer treatment and surgery might bias the results. And I would struggle to get ethical approval for the “pure” cross-over study!
This will rumble on and on until someone puts a formal definition of what female is from the perspective of sporting competition.
This is the nub of the problem. The historical definitions of "male" and "female" that are currently used to categorise sport are no longer fit for purpose We now know that gender covers a complex range of different physical, hormonal and chromosomal conditions, occurring naturally in intersex individuals or as a result of medical intervention, where people have transitioned. No one has come up with cast iron definitions that can resolve this.
xx chromosome
Case in point. Five minutes on Wikipedia will show you that doesn't work as a definition of "female".
I think Semenya has been treated unfairly, because whatever her specific physiology (and despite rumours and partial leaks, the exact details of her condition have not been made public) I believe she is legally a woman, so she should be able to compete in that category, as currently defined. It seems perverse to force her to medicate to limit her natural abilities.
Perhaps we ultimately have to move to having more sporting categories, based on different criteria (I'm not suggesting there's an easy answer to defining those new classes). We seem to accept the principle of many classes in paralympic sport (despite some controversies) even though the classes can include athletes with significantly different disabilities. Boxing is another sport where multiple weight categories are applied within a gender, and I don't think anyone has seriously suggested having single open "male" and "female" boxing categories.
Perhaps trans F to M and M to F should be in the "para" categories, as they are after all conditions that require lifelong medical treatment.
Ironically McKinnon’s ‘sport is a human right’ mantra might well come back to bite her when we all realise the vast majority of women also have that right
I don't think there's any 'realising' to do - we have someone who has declared they can compete in women's sport because they're artificially manipulating some numbers to be in line with what women have. How that is then sufficient criteria to then perform in women's competitions is bizarre
The sporting authorities should have rejected this situation until it had been fully agreed - instead they've bowed to those who shout loudest, throw accusations of hate and infringing 'their rights' without engaging with the people that this farce is being foisted onto
xx chromosome
Case in point. Five minutes on Wikipedia will show you that doesn’t work as a definition of “female”.
Can you think of a better one for sporting purposes? (The whole point is to separate out the people who had massive testosterone boosts in their teenage years.)
But as I said earlier:
It’s simple, take gender out of it because that’s fluid.
Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.
‘XX’ and ‘other’. Problem goes away.
Maybe someone can tell me - in what way is Rachel McKinnon not a man? I don't believe there are any genetic/physical factors involved.
Being female is a handicap in most sport, but we as a society have created a female category to overcome that.
Is it, or is it a handicap in the same way it is for a job or pay? Isn't having these categories exactly why it's a handicap? We treat women differently, we teach them differently, we spend less money on them, we don't celebrate their achievements in the same way (by and large (in sport) because a man has done it first) and then we say "oh they're not as good".
It's the same as public school producing better results, it's very little to do with genetics it's a lot to do with money and social expectations. Or do you think Africans are generally less able cyclists than Europeans? That Kenyans are natural runners but not great shot putters?
It’s the same as public school producing better results, it’s very little to do with genetics it’s a lot to do with money and social expectations
It isn't, though. Within that same school, the very best male and female athletes are probably going to be pretty close on performance until around 14/15 years old. Then something happens which means that even with all the best training, equipment and so on that money can buy, the male athletes will perform better.
It's not about money, social standing, geographical location or anything really. It's about immutable biological facts. Male puberty fundamentally changes the human body.
It’s the same as public school producing better results, it’s very little to do with genetics it’s a lot to do with money. Or do you think Africans are generally less able cyclists than Europeans? That Kenyans are natural runners but not great shot putters?
So you're saying that with enough money and support, a female athlete can beat Usain Bolt's 9.58s 100m, or play Rugby for England (men) against the all-blacks? I am aware that a lot of women's perceived workplace performance deficit is a social construct. But this isn't about that, it's about biology. I don't think that's a controversial statement.
To answer your other questions: I don't think any Africans have really broken into pro cycling yet, but yeah it's something that I've wondered about before. I'm not sure about Kenyan shot putters, though. I don't think either of those examples are relevant.
To answer your other questions: I don’t think any Africans have really broken into pro cycling yet, but yeah it’s something that I’ve wondered about before. I’m not sure about Kenyan shot putters, though. I don’t think either of those examples are relevant.
more to do with the lack of decent roads, any history with the sport, and the cost
The one observation I have is that the issue is a M - F transition one. No F - M transitioned person is competing at that level and winning world championships. It would suggest that the assertions of some of the impact of transitioning don't stand up.
Perhaps trans F to M and M to F should be in the “para” categories, as they are after all conditions that require lifelong medical treatment.
is an interesting, though controversial, idea.
I think Semenya has been treated unfairly, because whatever her specific physiology (and despite rumours and partial leaks, the exact details of her condition have not been made public) I believe she is legally a woman
So is McKinnon.
To answer your other questions: I don’t think any Africans have really broken into pro cycling yet
Sure they have...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Teklehaimanot
But access to Early cycling and racing infrastructure is probably the rate determining effect.
I thought at one point they used the level of testosterone as the differentiator between Male / Female events to try and accommodate all the different Chromosome combinations; I assume that has been abandoned?
Mckinnon doesn’t help clarify the issue much – she’s a gift to those of a transphobic disposition, like a right wing parody of an entitled trans athlete.
Have to agree with this.
I've had a dabble in the world of trans-rights through work and to say that it is polarised is an understatement, it makes Brexit look like a polite disagreement over how to make a cuppa.
You also used the word "utilitarian" and that's what it should come down to IMO, her insistence on her right to exercise her advantage over her competitors impinges on their right to a fair contest IMO. And there are many more biological women than trans, obvs.
Rules will surely end up changed, but it's gonna be awkward.
I believe she is legally a woman
So is McKinnon.
Not in the UK though?
To answer your other questions: I don’t think any Africans have really broken into pro cycling yet
Not heard of this fella?
So you’re saying that with enough money and support, a female athlete can beat Usain Bolt’s 9.58s 100m, or play Rugby for England (men) against the all-blacks? I am aware that a lot of women’s perceived workplace performance deficit is a social construct. But this isn’t about that, it’s about biology. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement.
The recent women's World marathon record makes her the 15th fastest athlete of any gender ever over that distance. Why, if she can achieve that now and it's down to gender have women not permanently been in the top 20?
I don’t think either of those examples are relevant.
My point is people don't excel in things they aren't encouraged to do.
100 years ago you'd be having the same genetics argument about black people being less able than white.
Within that same school, the very best male and female athletes are probably going to be pretty close on performance until around 14/15 years old. Then something happens which means that even with all the best training, equipment and so on that money can buy, the male athletes will perform better.
Until you look at things boys are encouraged to do and girls not so much, like cricket or rugby or football.
It’s not about money, social standing, geographical location or anything really. It’s about immutable biological facts. Male puberty fundamentally changes the human body.
I think you give to much credit to the biology, in the grand scheme of things that make a difference IMHO testosterone is way up into the marginal gains end in a professional athlete.
Not heard of this fella?
He's British isn't he? Don't tell me you can just choose which country you want to ride for that gives you the best chance of winning. Its like Zola all over again.
So is McKinnon
Yes, so the same principle applies. If she satisfies the current criteria, she is eligible to compete in that category.
You return to the original problem. If the objective is to categorise people for the purposes of competition, the categories of male and female, as currently defined, are too simplistic to adequately cover the spectrum resulting from intersex conditions and gender transition or identification.
I think you probably need to re-think classification, but that's a big debate, and I don't think it has a simple answer.
I think you probably need to re-think classification, but that’s a big debate, and I don’t think it has a simple answer.
Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?
I think you give to much credit to the biology, in the grand scheme of things that make a difference IMHO testosterone is way up into the marginal gains end in a professional athlete
This is demonstrably false. One example where people at the top end of their game show that men are more powerful than women. https://www.topendsports.com/sport/tennis/men-v-women.htm
Or compare mens and womens weightlifting world records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting
Or look at mens vs womens DH, Rachel Atherton and her mates probably get the same level of funding and train as much as Loic Bruni et al, yet at snoshoe fro example, the women came in at 3.43, the men at 3.03, thats 20% faster.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/final-results-snowshoe-dh-world-cup-2019.html
This is demonstrably false
Also a brilliant example of where women are treated as second class, not invested in, get reduced prize money, lower sponsorship money, lower incentives to start out, less opportunity to play and develop at a young age and so on.
In not debating that women preform differently to men, I'm saying the data is completely skewed by the non biological factors to the point its not reliable.
We know those social factors are a huge limit in pretty much every situation so why not the major limit in sport? Does every successful male athlete have very high testosterone?
Look at Rachel Atherton as an example of a woman who was given a fairly level playing field with the men from a young age, she's Pretty handy in a bike and has put in plenty of times faster than a chunk of the men's field over the years if I'm not mistaken.