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The book.
Anyone else? I'm a week into its insightfullness, down 1lb and .5% less body fat by what is effectively and organic / wholemeal diet and modified eating times.
I made a big mistake last weekend; I ate according to my daily calorie intake on Saturday and semi - bonked (not a single bonk more a constant lack of energy / pace) on 50mile ride, then found out my net Sunday calories should have been 5000 (due to the ride) which I couldn't possible eat. (I fell 2000cals short)
This Saturday I'm overeating the plan (about 3000 - 3500 healthy cals) to ramp up the carbs for Sunday's ride to see if that works.
Phew!
a whole lb - a decent shit will weigh that 😕
I can't eat enough beforehand to cover a days' riding, so snack constantly plus pretty much always have (at least one) a cafe stop.
just remove a couple of links from your chain, maybe?
😆wwaswas - Member
just remove a couple of links from your chain, maybe?
Like most riders, I take of that bit pre-ride. Winterfold, the emphasis on the book isn't to drop weight like a stone, its to become lean and maintain your strenght and endurance hence slow(er) weight loss tham might be achieved in other ways.winterfold - Member
a whole lb - a decent shit will weigh that
Although as I pointed out, my mistake at the weekend was to not prem-empt the need for 2-3 thousand extra cals and I rode on a normal daily diet. The fact though I completed 50miles 1000m climbing with a 17.4mph average (at my level) is testament to the fact that it worked to some degree as it didn't kill me completely.
b r how far and fast are you riding? a typical (not bradley wiggins) body is storing 50-100,000 calories, but only 2-3000 are instant access.
I read it last week. Very interesting stuff, bear in mind though that (it seemed to be anyway) to be firmly aimed at professional athletes/very serious amateurs (e.g. he recommends training at least 6 days a week in the [b]off season[/b]!) so if you're a more recreational athlete you'll not want to follow his advice to the letter. Still a lot of decent info to take home.
I actually liked the way the author was sometimes contradictory or ambiguous in his advice because often there [i]is[/i] no one right answer, especially coming from a bloke who is generalising and has never actually seen you! Better to cover all the angles (or at least acknowledge they exist) rather than insist that one particular way is perfect for everybody.
Also bear in mind a 1lb weight/.5% body fat fluctuation over 1 week is meaningless due to a) inaccuracy in measurement and b) changes in hydration, etc. I'm sure if you keep it up though you'll start to see something more concrete!
One the tiny glycogen stores are gone (isn't that in like the first 45mins of a race) you're going to need topping up with food anyway.
I think you think [b]way[/b] too much, Just eat more pasta the night before and a healthy dose of porridge and banana before you ride.
I actually liked the way the author was sometimes contradictory or ambiguous in his advice because often there is no one right answer, especially coming from a bloke who is generalising and has never actually seen you! Better to cover all the angles (or at least acknowledge they exist) rather than insist that one particular way is perfect for everybody.
Yes me too, hence I'm adapting my weekend calories to average them over the weekend rather than stick to may daily allowance and have a defiecit I can't make up on Sunday.
Also bear in mind a 1lb weight/.5% body fat fluctuation over 1 week is meaningless due to a) inaccuracy in measurement and b) changes in hydration, etc. I'm sure if you keep it up though you'll start to see something more concrete!
True, I actually recording my measurements using bodyfat scales on a four weekly basis. I have last week as a base (13st, 23.6), I'll record again in 3 weeks time.
I think you think way too much, Just eat more pasta the night before and a healthy dose of porridge and banana before you ride.
I do this, but I tend to overeat/eat rubbish by habit during the week, this kind of thing helps me keep a generic discipline.
I think you think way too much, Just eat more pasta the night before and a healthy dose of porridge and banana before you ride.
+1
move more eat clean should see you move through amateur ranks no bother.
the upper echelons require a bit more science.
how ever if your entering at master level your screwed by all the wasbeen elites.
just the act of setting a goal or challenge should keep you on track - reading a book less so. ive struggled to find a challenge recently that appeals - but i might be onto one now - in a different sport - found something i want to achieve - now to shift 2 stone.
Don't worry trail rat, I'm a 40yo wannabe just wanting to be ahead of the pie eating weekend warriors, I won't be entering master categories (unless by accident I can ride that fast 😯 )
🙂
[i]b r how far and fast are you riding? a typical (not bradley wiggins) body is storing 50-100,000 calories, but only 2-3000 are instant access. [/i]
Normally +50k and 1000 to 1500m of climbing , all offroad. But I've never been able to 'store' energy, which is why no matter how much I eat I don't put on weight (48 and can still fit in my wedding suit..., with a BMI of 20).
I use to really suffer until I realised it was just how my body worked, and I needed a constant intake of calories.
I think you [b]think[/b] way too much
+1........x 1000.........to the power of Gnaaaar.
If you put as much effort into your biking as you did worrying about minor details, you'd be in the Elites by now. Just ride the ****in' bike(s)! 😉
Surprisingly I need to put more effort into eating. Todays, what feels like adequate meals leave at only approx 1700 cals (according to myfitnesspal)! This is it:
Granola Cereal with semi skimmed
2 Slices wholemeal toast
1 x Geobar
3 x Wholemeal pitta's with houmous
400g Organic chicken & rice massala chunky soup
1 x dried apple snack
Wholemeal pasta with fresh tomato sauce & bacon.
I need to find another 800*, yes 800 just to stay alive!!
*May arrive in the form of beer later
yep youd be surprised how much CLEAN food you need to break even on calories.....
eat junk and calories come easy.
br - fair do's - that is a decent ride and sounds liek you are in good nick. I would need to eat a decent amount on an XC or trail ride like that.
I find with MTB you ride at high tempo/threshold a lot more and dont have the option of knocking it off into the fat burning zone but still keeping an OK average like you can on the road.
Kryton - 13st doesnt mean much on its own - how tall are you? do/did you play rugby etc. 28kmh for that kind of ride is not bad at all if you were riding solo, but if it was all that threshold you will be starving afterwards and your daily intake would need to be ~4000 cal.
Anyway, I just had a cup of tea and nana and my weight went up 250gm. I'm going to write a book about it.
ride more.
eat porridge.
and bananas.
get some protein
avoid chemical shit.
stay hydrated.
dont become a diet bore.
that will £6.99. Or it would be if I didnt get that advice free from the NHS dietitian* after my op and feel honour-bound to share, and she has 2 degrees, a masters etc
trail_rat - Member
yep youd be surprised how much CLEAN food you need to break even on calories.....eat junk and calories come easy.
Yeah, as you can see I'm finding that. This (roughly speaking) is in the book - a McD's Cheeseburger (400cals) and a Carrot (60cals & more nutritious) take roughly the same time to eat. Carrots aren't marketed or as generally available / easy to eat vis a vis most people go for the easy option of wolfing don 400 dirty cals in the same time they could eat the carrot if they'd made the effort.
Kryton - 13st doesnt mean much on its own - how tall are you? do you play rugby etc. 28kmh for that kind of ride is not bad at all if you were riding solo.
5ft 11 and 3/4, I used to play rugby (outside centre)up until 15 years ago at a then weight of 12.5 stone (3 gym workouts, 2 training session and a match in that though) now biking is my sole sport / hobby, only 18 months into riding events of any kind competitively and same amount of time on road bikes. On that ride I may as well have been riding solo as I was dropped off the back pretty much after an hour, for 2 1/2 hours (first 20 miles was a 19mph average). Bear in mind here it was very windy on Sunday with very wet roads and floods in places.
I'm new (6 rides) to club riding, last year my fastest solo was 31.5kph over 30k and 28.5kph over 70k.
Enough of a background?
Edit: One of my goals this years is to do that 70k with a 20mph average.
It can be quite hard dropping that rugby weight. I had to crash my car and have half my guts cutout to do it. I don't recommend this path.
make sure you eat while you're riding if you are learning to hang in with the fast group on your club ride, you will be eating into your glycogen store pretty quickly if they are testing you out or just like riding hard. If you are doing 28 kmh solo then you should have the power to ride with a 34-36kmh group, but maybe havent got the nous yet? It will come.
It is wierd but it is long steady rides that build your base power. Put the miles in at endurance/moderate level, then you will find 30kmh becomes a tempo ride rather than balls out 😉
I am doing so winterfold. 2 lunchtime midweek rides of 20 miles has me riding balls out inc 3 x cat 4's on a Tuesday and Z2 or mtb on a Thursday. With the Sunday club rides included I'm struggling for any more time with work / kids.
I have considered doing club rides bi weekly and doing a long solo z2/3 solo in the intervening week.
yep its hard to combine with any kind of life and why full-on roadies are wierd
Was wondering how you were getting on with it. Picked up the book earlier this week but not got much further than the body types for various sports bit. I'm beginning to think reading the rest may not be a great idea!
Though I did find [url= http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/ ]this chart[/url] the other day showing watts/kg for various categories. Then knocked up a chart with watts against kg. Can see that 1.5 kg is roughly the equivalent of 5 watts, or about a 0.07 difference in watts/kg. Well I thought that was interesting! At least it gives you some sort of idea about what sort of weight change you would need to make a significant difference.
this is as good a resource as anything: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/ if you are a bit of a geek and need to know/worry about everything <scratches chin to think of anyone who might fit that description> then look at Andrew Coggan's blog/academic papers. Then think 'did I eat a massive bowl of porridge this morning?' before going on a hard ride.
In part due to circumstances borne out of near death (totally my own fault from driving like a tit) I have had to look hard at my diet/exercise/priorities but is really ****ing satisfying at 46 to be as fit as I've ever been, pretty skinny and looking forward to doing some racing this Summer knowing I wont be straight out the back. But it isn't rocket science.
The hard bit is working out how to balance work, life and family - I took the decision that hard work and being hung about status and career was killing me and then post-rationalised that by reading all the research that said more money doesn't make you more happy once you have what is really quite a modest income (except the £4k I need for a new Foil Di2 😉 )
Yes Coggan is very interesting, I think the chart i liked to above is based on a spreadsheet of his. Easy to get quite obsessive about this stuff though.
Crikey MrBlobby, my fastest on Thursdays quick ride was 227watts. divide that by 82kgs and you get 2.7 over 7 minute which puts me at the untrained or at best fair category.
(average 187 over 30k)
😯
Yes, that chart can be quite depressing!
Oh and losing 1.5kg will only improve your number by about 0.07 🙂
mrblooby, agreed a kilo here or there really doesnt make a lot of difference to 40 something recreational riders and amateur racers.
10/12/15kg does though.
Unfortunately at about 75kg and about 8% body fat, I'm going to need to do something drastic to lose 10kg!
FWIW the race Weight table recommended I went down to 11.5 stone. So thats 10kgs roughly leaving me with *does maths* 3.15 or fair / moderate.
Blimey, I'd look like a stick at that weight, all that suffering to not much gain!
Kryten - work a set of nasty supermaximum power intervals into your week.
5 x 3 mins on 3 mins off. They need to be done above threshold, as hard as you can go for 3 minutes. Be properly warmed up.
that will get your 5 minute power up (and your lunch) 🙂
That is a good set for keeping up with a group and being able to put some hurt on when necessary 😈
I kind of thought I was doing that by accident on my weekly fast ride winterfold, by "thrashing" up the 3 cat 4's that are on it as fast as possible.
I say thrashing....
But I get it.
Yes, if that power is an indication of your FTP, would suggest there are big gains to be made from intervals focusing on FTP.
Philip Gilbert is your height (5'11") and looks reasonably built for a cyclist (ie he could beat my daughter in an arm wrestle) and is 67kg. Barking! They must disappear when they turn sideways.
mrblobby - yep my musculature basically rebuilt itself over a year in a cyclist shape rather than a 'rugby player who took up cycling' shape. My thighs got thinner but are way more powerful (I am about 4.5-5 W/kg for 5 mins on a good day). Either I had a lot of visceral fat or there was a load of muscle there that felt hard but was just dead weight on the bike. Still got my hookers ribcage though so will never get down to a true 'race weight', which I reckon would be 62kg-ish at 5'8".
my fastest on Thursdays quick ride was 227watts. divide that by 82kgs and you get 2.7 over 7 minute which puts me at the untrained or at best fair category.
Sure you can go quicker than that!
you improve your FTP by pulling it up from above and pushing it up from below. So a combination of base miles (your zone 2 rides) and supermaximum intervals.
'thrashing' up successive climbs sounds about right. Just riding along at 80%/mid zone 3 the whole time is not particularly effective when you are time poor. Strava is a massive help here as it encourage focused effort.
Dont get too hung up on your average speed, focusing on that is a good way to end up riding at 80% the whole time. Once in a while, do your route you want to do at 32kmh and see how you are going against your target.
Is Kryton down our way then njee?
Njee / winterfold here:
http://app.strava.com/activities/39160262
(Njee thats the ride I broke my chain on but...)
I thought I was going pretty hard, it was a blustery day but you should be able to see my power & HR on the Performance tab. You'll see where the chain and later the puncture occurred also.
28.6kph It felt faster too but hey....
winterfold - Member
Is Kryton down our way then njee?
The flip side of london but we've ridden together socially on MTB - mutual friends.
Very interesting stuff, bear in mind though that (it seemed to be anyway) to be firmly aimed at professional athletes/very serious amateurs (e.g. he recommends training at least 6 days a week in the off season!)
My training plan has me training 6-7 days a week all year round, lots and lots of hours in the off season (18hr week) as its just building base (z2). Even Joe Friel says these days in base you don't necessary need a recovery week.
I've still not finished the book, but its interesting. I started eating clean last year. Lost 2.5kgs only Z2 training. Now i'm upping the intensity, i can cope without the need for high GI around exercise time as my body had long enough to adapt to eating clean without stressing it with higher intensity work. When I initially lost 1kg, i noticed the difference straight away when riding with the fast guys on climbs.
To get faster, going out and thrashing yourself every ride isn't necessarly the most effective way of getting there - i went from cat 4 - cat 2 in one season, i was surprised at how easy a lot of my sessions were...long recovery in between intervals etc.
Slightly off topic but why refer to rides in km
But was that absolutely flat out seeing what power you could put out? I imagine you can manage more than 227w for 7 minutes. Do you use any 'proper' software for analysis as you obviously have a power meter?
Dont get too hung up on your average speed, focusing on that is a good way to end up riding at 80% the whole time. [b]Once in a while, do your route you want to do at 32kmh and see how you are going against your target.[/b]
Thats pretty much what the Race Weight book suggested. The four weekly weigh in is also a recording of an all out effort on a known / the same route. Its says to measure time but I've added power to my spreadsheet as my route include traffic lights etc.
But was that absolutely flat out seeing what power you could put out? I imagine you can manage more than 227w for 7 minutes. Do you use any 'proper' software for analysis as you obviously have a power meter?
No power meter, just strava and a garmin...
If I was doing it specificlally measuring FTP / LT yes maybe over 7 mins I could get higher. I've been up to 270 on some rides for 2-3 mins so perhaps if there was a focussed effort....
There's an 8 min fairly flat stretch in there (Lap 5). I'll repeat that ride Monday, doing z2 up to the beginning of Lap 5 and go blindingly hard for that 8 mins and see what happens....
No power meter, just strava and a garmin...
Then ignore the 227w altogether!
Didn't realise it graphed the power when you didn't have a power meter - thought it just did the average on segments!
I'd suggest that's not going to be accurate enough to use for training porpoises - it's just based on speed/weight/gradient.
Not sure I'd bother with 8 minute intervals - too short for FTP building, but too long for anaerobic. I personally tend to do 5 minutes or less, or 15-20 minutes. Or rather I did when I actually trained!
I'd suggest that's not going to be accurate enough to use for [b]training porpoises[/b]
Yes I'd imagine that'd be the case too LOL! 😀
Agreed though, but perhaps all being the same i can [i]really[/i] try next time and see how it changes.
Yes, and if you do it with a tail wind it'll make your power even higher!
Fair point.
I used my Powertap and measured it against Strava - Strava was miles out so I wouldn't bother using it as a measurement. If you've only got HR then train with that, much more effective than using a calculated power output based on weight, gradient and speed. So many other variables to take into account.
The racing weight book does make a good read but having read it, it does just seem to be common sense. My coach said that on training days eat what you want, its on the rest days you need to watch what you eat.
Unless you're looking at top level racing, I (personally) wouldn't focus too much on your diet as long as its 'clean' and healthy - everything in moderation. Cutting out beer helps massively though, if you regularly drink stopping it will shed weight quickly. Winter time do lots of long zone 2 sessions, only starting to ramp up to speed stuff closer to the race season.
Oooh, and sleep. Lots. The recovery side of things is nearly just as important as the training.
Kryton, have you got a turbo trainer? Can recommend trainerroad.com, it can work out power based on cadence for the type of trainer you have. Have tried it alongside my powertap and it's very good. You can then work out your FTP and base your workouts around that.
Flange - thanks. I only drink on Fridays.
Mr Blobby - no, I had one, got bored and annoyed by the whole spare wheel/cassette/tyre thing and sold it. I have been thinking of reinvesting though as I have lots of space in the man cave to sit and spin.
Know what you mean, I just set up an old road bike as a turbo bike and just leave it like that permanently. Got my power hub and a turbo specific tyre on it. Worth having though. And the trainer road workouts do add an extra dimension to turbo training, not got bored of it yet after a couple of months.
Yeah. Might have to get one and a cheapo wheel to stick a cassette and tyre on - I only have the one bike.
Mr Blobby - no, I had one, got bored and annoyed by the whole spare wheel/cassette/tyre thing and sold it. I have been thinking of reinvesting though as I have lots of space in the man cave to sit and spin.
For quality of training I personally don't think you can beat sitting on the turbo - although mind numbingly dull. Doing high interval stuff on the road giving it death can be a little precarious if you've got your head down and you're properly going for it. I understand what you're saying though, it can be a bind if you've got just the MTB. They do (or at least used to) sell rim based turbos but I haven't seen them for sale for a while
what flange said 5/6 posts above.
i cant stand the turbo personally. I used it for a bit after the crash when I could not clip out because my ankle was borked and I was desperate to do something and even with sufferfest I find it hard work. There is no skill, bike handling element to it.
It can be hard to get the kind of structure you need for interval training in on the road though, I am quite lucky living in the sticks in that regard, there is always a suitable interval hill or dig I can spin to.
Winterfold by Alderbrook, then Barhatch, then Ride Way, then Houndhouse is a good one 😈
make the turbo easy. what put me off is not the riding but the 15 mins to get the bike out, change the tyre, move a bike, find a table set up a lap top etc etc.
I got a spare wheel and do intervals based on ipod playlists, just need a bike and ipod now, and finding it much easier to use the turbo 😀
Which race weight book have you got - there seem to be a few?
Which race weight book have you got - there seem to be a few?
Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald.
For quality of training I personally don't think you can beat sitting on the turbo
I'm short on training time so find it's pretty much the only way I can get quality work in. You can really focus the workout and avoid the junk miles. Basically use the little time I have as productively as possible (usually late evenings.) Though I do try and get out on the road/trails as often as I can just to remind myself why I do trainer stuff 🙂
Or rather than spend money on an expensive trainer, buy a cheapy one and pick up a knackered/rubbish bike (doesn't matter what it is, it'll spend its life on the turbo). Then set it up and it's always ready to go. Expensive turbos in my opinion are a bit of a waste of money. If noise isnt an option, an old magnetic tacx will do the job and you'll pick one of those up for £50.
That'll be me Mr Blobby. A quick scan of sale trainers on Merlin, plus I need a speed/cadence thingy for the bike/my garmin and the wheel is coming in at around 200 notes.
Sigh. And for what, I'm a 40yo dad of two, no Monsieur Wiggo...
When you are 11st 10, 32 kmh avg, looking at an office full of potential heart-attacks and most importantly, dishing out some hurt to 20 and 30 somethings on training rides you will know why
Im still shit downhill on a MTB though 😳
Seriously - don't spend a lot of money on a turbo. I've got a tacx thing (£500+) and a cheapy elite one and they both do the same thing. Have you got an HR monitor?
Well if you are anywhere near west berkshire then I have an old turbo you can have. It's about 15 years old and the resistance thing doesn't work, but I'd still be using it now if I hadn't needed one with variable resistance for mrs blobby. Whatever it was stuck on was fine for me though. It's an old Tacx CycleForce One.
@ flange - yes a Garmin 500 HRM.
@ MrBlobby thanks for the offer but if I but after having sold one before, I'll either not bother or I'll spend the cash and get setup properly with a remote adjust etc.
Can't find any of the Merlin ones on the traineroad list! This looks good though: http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/training/trainers/elite-trainers/elite-supercrono-power-mag-elastogel-trainer.html
I can use a road tyre on a Turbo right? Just means more wear an tear but potentially is just tyre/chain/casste replacement as if I was riding on the road? Or not?
You'll have to do a LOT of hours on a turbo to wear out a road tyre. Just get a gatorskin or something cheap.
Don't bother with cadence - just an HRM will do, you're only interested in zones and time.
flange - the days of cheap gatorskins are long gone - they cost more than a ****ing High Roller ❗ £30+
A lithion or cheapest Vittoria for £12 will be fine.
I have the cheapest Tacx thing, it works fine. It was £70ish new a few years ago, I would have thought they are cheap on ebay or your local clubs s/hand list.
Excellent. Might just get a turbo an bang the bike on it then.
Flange are you suggesting to just simulate z2 and intervals on the turbo?
have you got an HR belt for your Garmin?
Google Karvonen method, work out your resting HR, set the HR zones on your Garmin, customise display on your Garmin so you have a 'turbo' screen with HR data on it.
See if you can do all that without asking any questions on it 🙂
Then: Do your intervals.
5x3/4x4/3x5 need to be hard, above threshold, heading into zone 5 towards the end and getting it all out. I prefer to do these on the road, on an incline with a ramp at the end, so you can sprint for the top and really max out. But that's me and being fortunate to have plenty of suitable ramps of varying length and steeps a nice warmup from my house. Others prefer to do intervals on the turbo eg if you live in a town with traffic and lights, junctions etc. Music and Sufferfest help a lot when you're on the turbo IMO
Btw - as njee pointed out strava power is a bit of a joke.
I did some above threshold intervals on Saturday and Strava was giving me 220-250 watts when I was repeating the same climb within a range of 7s over 4 minutes.
I calculated my power output to be 330W, allowing for headwind. 295W if I ignore headwind. Either way its ****ing miles out, so ignore it.
If you want to know your power in W, you need a power meter. Strava can tell you if your competitive via the leaderboard on well contested segments. Without being rude, this thread has provided you with enough to worry about without thinking about a powermeter.
Cheers.
Still looking at the Turbo option, but as has been pointed out to me this weekend I am just an office bod with a biking hobby.
Could have used it too - work has knocked out any bike time until Thursday :-/
BTW - Better ride this weekend - I ate over my cals to 3000 on Saturday (still clean food) then 1 and 1/2 portions porrige & wholemeal toast pre ride. Overall (despite headwind on the way back) the fastest/most strava power average I've done to date on a club ride.
Holy Smoke.
Mrs K has just come back from the weekly shop, the first one which is more or less 100% "clean" - and a 40% rise in cost.
Yikes, the price of health these days.....
need to start carb loading food wise 2-3 days before not just night before for a long ride
Do you? I thought the point of "carb loading" was just to make sure muscle/liver glycogen stores were at maximum. But since they are extremely limited anyway wouldn't they be at max just through normal eating anyway, unless you are regularly exhausting them with very long/hard efforts (ooh er)? Which I don't think people would really be doing a couple of days before a planned long ride?need to start carb loading food wise 2-3 days before not just night before for a long ride
We found this too although not buying snacky "treats" offsets it to some extent. We have definitely become better at seeking out bargains though - the local Waitrose just before they close often has massive meat/fish discounts!Mrs K has just come back from the weekly shop, the first one which is more or less 100% "clean" - and a 40% rise in cost.
Last week I rode 40 miles hard on sunday after "dieting" all week (1 z2 ride in that week). I loaded up on Saturday only (3000 cals, 67% carbs according to my fitness pal as opposed to 2300) with a large bowl of porridge oats and 2 slices of toast. I could have done another 10 no problem I reckon, and still had 1 bar and 1 gel plus 1 bottle drink to go.
We found this too although not buying snacky "treats" offsets it to some extent
I've found I need to eat a lot more "stuff" on a clean diet. I put Biltong, Kiwi fruit, Dates, parma ham and dried fruit on the shopping list for snacks, maybe thats the difference.
I'm pretty confused as to how anyone can know they've lost 1 lb of weight. That's not much more than half a pint of water.
ormondroyd - Member
I'm pretty confused as to how anyone can know they've lost 1 lb of weight. That's not much more than half a pint of water.
Scales that measure weight / BMI / Fat % /hydration. Not entirely accurate but you can spot trends....