R2 Bikes - the last vestiges of cheaper EU parts gone?

Yea, I was very disappointed to learn this a few days ago

r2 is a really good place

If you think UK distros have time in a day to run active kyboshing campaigns against EU retailers you've got it wrong. Most are just trying to trade through collapsing sales channels, dismantled margin stacks and over stocking.

How about the Spaniards and the Italians (Deporvillage and Lordgun?).

I only shop at EU websites when (as frequently seems to happen) they actually hold stuff not available in the UK, otherwise the savings usually appear negligible.

It isn't a Brexit-tax...import duty needs to be paid when you buy something from another country and get it shipped to your country...it just so happened that the EU considers everyone in the EU to be the one place, so no import duty was charged. We aren't in the EU so makes sense that we have to pay import duty...it was caused by Brexit, but import tax has always been a thing.

However, I do agree that it is another thing to add to the Leaving EU was a mistake list of reasons...

Bikester are free of additional costs IIRC?

It isn’t a Brexit-tax....

....We aren’t in the EU

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it was caused by Brexit, but import tax has always been a thing.

So, a new tax caused by Brexit then, at least to us sad citizens who were once able to buy from the EU and now can no longer :-/

It's worth noting that I'm not sure that R2 were charging VAT at source as they should have been for < £135 orders so there was probably a loophole here that they either had to plug or, as they've done, stick a minimum order value on, at which point it becomes the problem of HMRC to sort.

How about the Spaniards and the Italians (Deporvillage and Lordgun?).

Thanks! Having had a quick look, Depor Village charge 17.99gbp to ship and LordGun £9.42 (both for a single tyre). The latter I've used before and have no complaints, but R2 were certainly cheaper and (prior to this) charged a very reasonable 7.50€ to the UK, taking around a week to get here. The key is to stay inside the £135 limit, which includes shipping, so the more you pay, the more likely you are to have issues here (as well as obviously eating into the savings!)

Of all the people to direct your anger at, UK distribution should be pretty low down the list… they were always going to look more expensive as the EU retailers weren’t adding VAT. HMRC have now clamped down on that.

This is how it was always supposed to be, post brexit. What should happen is the retailer collects UK VAT, signs up to the govt scheme and pays HMRC it’s just ze germans don’t want to be doing HMRCs job, and why should they, so it’s minimum order where you pay the VAT yourself, if HMRC can be bothered, but no owness on the retailer.

What you need is an EU retailer that has distribution/warehousing in the UK, such as Bikeinn

Also worth noting that you only pay import duty if the product was made, mostly, outside of the EU

Yup, shame but always seemed inevitable - they were probably cheap because they weren't charging the UK VAT (for items under £135) and sending it on to HMRC as required.

Nah, the key isn't to stay within the £135 'limit'...if you can't buy it in the UK for a price you want to pay then buy it elsewhere and the key is to pay in local currency. The shipping process is absolutely fine and you pay the import duty and it gets delivered without any issues (and very likely to still be cheaper than the UK price due to the Euro conversion rate).

Nah, the key isn’t to stay within the £135 ‘limit’…if you can’t buy it in the UK for a price you want to pay then buy it elsewhere and the key is to pay in local currency.

It depends. Most bike bits seem to get charged at 20% duty, plus £12 (for Parcel Force anyway) handling fee. So if you buy £200 in bits with £10 shipping (assuming VAT is correctly paid either at source or on receipt), you'll pay at least £50 in duty and handling fees on top of this leaving a final total of at least £260. If you split this into two, £100 orders, you'll pay just £220 in total as you'll end up paying two lots of shipping, but no import duty. Obviously, this is not possible on single items above the £135 limit, but for many bike bits it can be well worth breaking up orders to avoid paying import duty into the UK even if it means paying more for shipping.

Personally, I'm quite happy to not line the pocket of the taxman more than I absolutely have to, especially this particular tax which I consider somewhat offensive given the political background behind it.

What you need is an EU retailer that has distribution/warehousing in the UK, such as Bikeinn

Argh, I think it was BikeInn I meant when I said Deporvillage, in fact I'm not sure I've ever used Deporvillage so wouldn't want anyone to think I'm vouching for that particular site.

Its not just bikes...

I have a connection to an Audi A2 group ( the older boxy one ending 2002). Audi Tradition in Germany have stopped supplying the UK due to Brexit and that alone. A simple NLA part like a handbrake cable will put a car off the road for the want of a €60 item.

I have sent almost €20k of bits across, bought from Germany and sent via private parcels with only 2 interceptions.

I could imagine R2 don't want to pay a fee on a return trip to Germany if the item is incorrect either.

This sucks! I've used them a lot over the past few years. Being able to shop one site for the niche xc parts is brilliant. Their site (for me) worked so well with filters and stock listings; is their a UK based equivalent (and please dont anyone mention 'poshbike'). Very annoying.

Came up here a few days ago:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/anyone-ordered-stuff-from-lordgun-or-r2-bike/

As I said there, can't really argue with paying the VAT, but the biggest PITA is the absolute requirement to order >EUR160 - R2 in particular often had bits (or stock of bits) that you couldn't get in the UK.

I could imagine R2 don’t want to pay a fee on a return trip to Germany if the item is incorrect either.

They were always very good on this, supplying me with a prepaid return label when they sent me the wrong thing. I guess as they were charging 7.50€ to ship out, the returns would be a similar. Bit more than in the UK, but not massively so.

really gutting - there seems to be a few german sites that are still the same - but dont have the same vast amount of rare stuff like R2 bike did - maybe they will follow suite too, but defo gutting it was a great place for tyres etc

I've had confirmation from R2 now, with the reason being somewhat unsurprising:

The reason for our required minimum order value are import regulations of the UK. These state that the retailer must charge the british VAT rate on orders under the value of 160 € (approx. GBP 135). Unfortunately, our shop system does not allow taxation for Great Britain. Therefore we can only process orders with a value of minimum 160 €.

Orders with a value of more than 160 € will be priced without VAT (0% VAT) as usual. In the country of destination, UK customs will charge customs duty and VAT. You will be advised of the amount charged in advance. After payment, the package will be delivered to you.

Oh well, good while it lasted but I'll be honest, this was more than about cheap bits. Time and time again R2 (like Bike Discount and Rose before) had parts that were very hard to source in the UK, so the loss is a proper pain. Can't blame them of course - they have to follow the rules and look to their own business - but it's surprising that there's not enough UK business to be done for one of the German retailers to consider upgrading their shop platform to support UK VAT!

Yay, Brexit.

It's not really a 'loss', though, is it? The prices are generally still reasonable, even allowing for import duty & Vat, if they're charged. And at least you're getting what you need.
I just buy something extra that I'm going to need before long, or ask a couple of buddies if they're needing anything, then order >€160. I've not been charged anything on import the couple of times I've done this with R2 in the last year, so plan to keep going down this route. Especially now that CRC/Wiggle is so god-awful..

As for HMRC, well, if the idiot tories will cut 50% of the staff and close the offices where all of the experienced staff were based, you have to expect a considerable reduction in service. See also the passport office, DVLA, DWP...
Even the Home Office/Immigration, with increased resources, cannot get to grips with migration, policing... Sincere apologies, just went way off topic there.

Sincere apologies, just went way off topic there.

Very much on topic.

It's the Brexit Tories like Johnson and Gove and the idiots that voted to Leave that have created shit like this for the rest of us. I don't see a reason to dress that up for anyone.

daern

but it’s surprising that there’s not enough UK business to be done for one of the German retailers to consider upgrading their shop platform to support UK VAT!

The UK seems to think there's not enough value in packages worth under £160 to be bothered handling them for customs, and they'e dumped that burden on retailers instead. IF the entire UK can't find value in it, you can hardly blame a retailer for following suit.

I've ordeed thing a few times that were over £135 from the likes of R2 bike and never been charged any extra. Is this likely to change now?

As a Retailer based in Germany (clothes not bike stuff) its more complicated and expensive than everyone is saying.

To send to the UK under the £135 limit its not about amending your system to the UK 20% (this bit is pretty simple as we now have to charge the actual VAT rate of each EU country we ship to anyway - from 18-15%) but this problem is that you have to register with HMRC and do a 1/4ly VAT statement and payment. Fo the other EU countries we can use a single mechanism and it gets sent to the right country but UK is now totally separate. It's just another cost.

On the bike distribution side I do find it strange that they don't have the stock and its generally more expensive.
Nearly all the main/ big brands make in the Far East and charge you in USD.
Import tax is very similar (if not same currently) for UK or EU.
GBP is stronger against the USD than the Euro is, so the goods actually cost less for the UK Distro than the EU one.
VAT is generally the same or higher.

So you buy from R@, etc. from UK. The list price has the import duty and 19% VAT included. A UK customer you get the 19% taken off and on delivery you have to pay the Import Duty again and UK 20% VAT plus handling charges. And its still normally cheaper...

I’ve ordeed thing a few times that were over £135 from the likes of R2 bike and never been charged any extra. Is this likely to change now?

In theory, it's been like this since Brexit. I've had larger orders from R2 hit for the full-whack (and, indeed, more - Parcel Force did their sums wrong!) but I've also had stuff from China come through that has been completely missed. Last one was correctly declared at around £200 value, RM texted me to say "there will probably be duty to pay on this, we'll message you when we've checked", but it was handed to me by the postman the next day with not another word. Perhaps it sneaked through, or they just CBA to process it properly. I think it's just luck of the draw, TBH. Obviously, most China-originated stuff is "exempt" because they label it "Returned parts. Value: $5" which is a rather effective bypass 😉

Import tax is very similar (if not same currently) for UK or EU.

This is one of the more annoying things. Leaving VAT out, the goods being sold in Germany (presuming they are far-east origin) have already had import duty paid into the EU, so paying a second lot when they are exported from the EU to be imported to the UK is properly offensive to me. I don't object to paying for import duty (well, OK, I do from the EU because, Brexit) but I really do object to double-paying!

My earlier dig at UK distros was picked up by a few people, but the fact that you can buy from a German retailer, get double-hit on duty, pay VAT and shipping across Europe, pay an additional company's profit, and it's *still* cheaper than sourcing in the UK suggests that someone, somewhere is taking the mickey...

someone, somewhere is taking the mickey…

Smaller markets, lower volume, higher cost per a unit.

If we broke Europe down into lots of little markets, each with their own distributor, each trying to hold the right amount of stock to keep suppling to customers without having shelves of spare widgets not enough people need right now... then we'd all be paying UK style prices. As I said in the long boring threads about leaving the EU... give it just enough time for readers to not make the direct link to leaving the Single Market and Customs Union, and most of the UK papers will be leading with "Rip Off Britain" headlines.

I don’t object to paying for import duty (well, OK, I do from the EU because, Brexit) but I really do object to double-paying

I'm not sure you are double-paying though - the VAT is being removed at point of sale and then being applied when it comes to this country - UK is no longer part of the EU single market, so by law, we need to pay import duties - this has been the case long before Brexit. It just seems that the mad fools who actually voted for Brexit appeared to be clueless of this, but it was very obvious for others.

Not meaning to be offensive, but you appear to be arguing against something that has been around for a very long time and isn't new - although now that we are out of the EU, we need to pay it - which is 'new' but that is we are no longer part of that single market. If you ever order parts from the US, then you pay import and VAT...so the EU single market is the exact same as that (and wasn't hidden whilst the debate was raging to leave or stay).

In an attempt to try and stay on-thread and not slip into a Brexit stealing conversation - I'm happy to keep buying from EU, if the overall cost is cheaper than the UK...I tend to buy a few things at a time so I'm always over the £135 limit, so this isn't really bothering me (and I've not been able to split the order as the parts were over £135 individually), so made sense to put it all in a single order and pay postage once.

Fairly sure I've been charged VAT at source on R2 orders before?

I’m not sure you are double-paying though

Probably are on the duty.

R2 will be paying EU import duty, then selling the item on their website.

If you then buy it in the UK then R2 might reclaim that import duty, but equally they may not be the original importer, and therefore may not care. Either way the customer doesn't get a refund of the EU import duty paid.

Then the UK consumer pays UK import duty.

About the long and short of it. I think that double duty + VAT is probably what you'd be paying for a > £135 order today.

I don't know what (if any) frameworks exist that would allow R2 to sell with neither import duty or VAT added for UK customers, but it's quite clear that it's well beyond whatever CBA threshold their business has for doing business with countries still busy trying to extract their pitchfork from their own foot.

I've ordered obscure Shimano stuff from Taiwan in the past, but I really should try to hunt out a reliable, far-eastern supplier of kosher Shimano bits. OK, so it'll take a while to arrive, and may end up paying duty/VAT, but at least I'll only pay it once, and I'll be willing to bet it'll be a boat load cheaper (and, more importantly, will have stock!) than buying via official channels. Pre-brexit, CRC/Wiggle were apparently sourcing their Shimano kit from "elsewhere" - wonder if this is still the case, or whether they are now forced to use UK distro channels.

I'm really gutted about r2, I've bought many a part from them under the €160 over the years that were either unavailable or not distributed in the UK - 45nth fatbike tyres for example.

Of the last 10 orders over the last year only one was above the €160 mark, six were items either not in stock in the UK or unavailable here.

This is the third post about this, stop making me re-live the trauma 😬