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First of all stash the bike then with all your might drag the body and hide it in the nearest bushes ( removing the helmet is optional at this stage) if you hear reports there has been a walkers body found you'll know your safe to go back and claim your new bike. ?
I got taught ABCD: Airways, Breathing, Circulation, Disability.
i.e. Only AFTER ABC do you worry about the risk of disability. Wheelchair's no good to the fellow if he's dead...
If he ain't breathing and you need to remove the helmet to get some air in, do it.
I got taught ABCD: Airways, Breathing, Circulation, Disability.Only AFTER ABC do you worry about the risk of disability. Wheelchair's no good to the fellow if he's dead...
ABC C-spine Circulation is what I was taught, no point in doing CPR on a guy with a broken neck.
c345 keep the diaphragm alive
Thanks for that Drac, thought I hadnt been listening properly for a moment. I have to say that a lot of firts aid courses delivered are not necessarily by trainers with up to date training packs ie they may not be specialist first aid trainers but trainers given a first aid lesson plan to deliver.
Interesting, interesting. I think I should probably get an up-to-date first aid session sorted in the very near future!
Anyone have any recommendations for organisations, etc? e.g. SJA any good?
Circulation now encompasses the DRRABC assessment as a priority with trauma injuries to prevent major blood loss. One of the lessons learnt in Afganistan. No point checking the airway and breathing whilst those precious 5-6 litres of blood leak out.
I think your guidelines are different for a reason.
If he deffo wasn't breathing I'd start the CPR (becasue I'd not know how long he'd been down) to get some oxygen in, then get help within a minute or so (Assuming I have phone signal) But if he's not breathing you won't 'cure' him on your own
This is unwise as if you have ever done CPR on someone, you can't just stop to make a phone call. CPR is no good unless you KNOW someone is on their way!
Oh now I've read your post properly budgie, you talking about reversible causes that's been in long before Afghanistan my friend.
I think your guidelines are different for a reason.
I'm not in the armed forces and my guidelines cover all trauma care. A mountain biker suffering trauma in a high speed collision with rocks, branches etc could quite possibly get an injury causing them to bleed out.
Shoosh and read this some you lot (he is dead BTW)
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74021
Budgie read my follow up post and err please don't lecture me on mechanics of injury. I've learnt a thing or two in the last 21 years of experience.
Budgie read my follow up post and err please don't lecture me on mechanics of injury. I've learnt a thing or two in the last 21 years of experience.
Drac I'm not lecturing anyone as there is no clear way to deal with a hypothetical situation and sorry but I didn't see your follow up post.
Ah no worries, sorry had some booze so a bit sharp.
No problem
Check for danger, to myself and the casualty, me being the first priority.
Shout for help.
Shout at the casualty and look for a response.
If no response, check for roughly 10 seconds for breathing.
If no signs of breathing, dial 999 or 112, let them know your about to start CPR. I'd remove the helmet carefully but rapidly. I'd be as careful as I could, but it would be removed pretty damn quick.
30 chest compressions.
2 rescue breaths.
I'd continue the cpr and rescue breaths until either someone took over, the casualty recovered or I couldn't go on any longer.
The chances of bringing someone back using CPR alone is slim. As are the chances of a spinal injury if the guy had the right armour on. 😀
All the debate about detecting the casualty breathing or not is rubbish.
If they are not breathing then cyanosis is horribly apparent,blue lips, pale skin etc. they literally look like death, as they are dying.
It is unmistakeable. It happens very quickly after a reduction in oxygen levels in the blood.
Realman;
Never practised mouth to nose, is it fairly simple?
Our bi-annual first aid training is delivered by the stout fellows at the Mines Rescue Centre. They taught us the nasal technique using 'Annie' the plastic doll.
One trainer told us a particularly horrific story involving a guy whose jaw was hanging off - so mouth to mouth wasn't possible. The casualty's nose was full of snot and blood, so the first aider sooked it all out with his mouth, spat it out and began mouth to nose breathing 😕
It is unmistakeable. It happens very quickly after a reduction in oxygen levels in the blood.
Well not in adults it doesn't no and cyanosis is not a sign of not breathing, like you say it's a sign of reduced oxygen levels in the blood.
Drac, point taken about paramedics / helmet removal; however at my recent 1st aid course trainer did a quick throon how to remove helmet at request of group as many of us MTBers. Difficult to do! I also learned how to do removal when with MRT a few years ago, again very tricky; at my scene quoted above 999 controller was about to talk me through getting mcycle helmet off when the ambulance thankfully arrived 🙂
Lovely breakfast reading 😆The casualty's nose was full of snot and blood, so the first aider sooked it all out with his mouth, spat it out and began mouth to nose breathing
Not a nice (original) scenario and a First Aid course in a classroom, while a lot better than nothing, will not prepare you for the actual event should you be unlucky enough to be first on scene!
Therefore [b]Keep it simple[/b] - ABC's (airway, breathing, circulation) and try and do it as per meehaja's post.
Drac, and anyone else with first hand experience, have you encountered agonal breathing? the trainer on our course was very keen on laboring that particular issue and was obviously quite proud of his impersonation, just curious as there was a lot of emphasis.
Yup it's not unusual but there's not much you can do about it as a first aider. Probably nice to know so if you were successful in resuscitating or seen it on someone ill just to know that it occurs.
It is fairly obvious and can go by other names eg, Cheyne-stoking and is often an irregular deep 'gasp'.
Definitely under the heading "anyone with an opinion" as I think I would just freak out. To solve the helmet on-off debate, empty your camelback and pull the valve off, shove it up their nose and squeeze the bladder? Would this get air in or cause more harm?
My wife is very sceptical of people who are 'First Aid' trained, and the almost romantic (ok perhaps not best use of the word) thought that they could bring some one back from the dead because they have been on a course.
As one or two have said above, being trained to give mouth to mouth and CPR, and actually doing are a world apart.
Mrs FD says that even in a hospital setting with lots of kit, drugs and many staff it is very difficult to keep some one going who has crashed, and its very unpleasent with every type of bodily fluid coming out of every hole.
I've often asked about this kind of scenario before and she has said that if I were to come across it I should 1. Check they are not having a kip, or just a minor injury (apperently it is quite easy to tell)2. Dial 999 3. Do the proper checks above if only to let paramedic/doc know what they are dealing with.
Now I could be wrong here but isn't the latest advice that mouth to mouth isnt necessary and chest compressions alone should keep some one going? However Mrs FD has said to me before, good luck in keeping chest compressions going for 30 mins.
Personally I wouldnt take a helmet off whatever, I havent been trained to do it, and besides I don't have the specialist skills and expertiese to do anything when its off, I think people who have done a first aid course are kidding themselves if they think they do. Leave that to the Paramedic/Doctor. I am sure I can be correct, but you should be able to keep the airway open without removing a helmet.
Stupid idea and it wouldn't work, you been watching too much McGuyver.