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I do one ride then wipe it with WD40 a second time which removes any excess that's worked its way out of the chain. From then on it stays clean on its own.
One tin of Putoline and a 1l deep fat fryer ordered. I have a new chain coming for the road bike too, so I’ll be giving it a try in the next few weeks.
As a recent convert to the big P, I found I wasn't too impressed after the first application, but then after the second 'dipping' it seemed to take better.
Might be my technique improved, or maybe it takes a couple of applications to really get into the links.
Don't make the DFF too hot, 120c is all you need. Making it too hot just means a thinner application due to it running off the hot chain.
The chain is ready when the air bubbles stop coming up, I usually turn off the DFF when the bubbles stop and let the chain sit with the lid up for maybe 10/20 mins before bringing the basket up and letting it drain a bit before taking it out to cool slightly, then wipe it down.
On my all weather bike (the one that doesn't get cleaned as much), I tend to leave the chain in the cooling wax longer and don't wipe it down (still let it drain though) so that there is more wax on the outside of the chain, that way after a wet ride, I can just put it away without worrying to much about it going rusty or getting stiff links.
It's always better having a rotation of chains, so that the freshly waxed one is just ready to go on and you can wax the one thats just come off whenever you have time.
A DFF is better than a pan (I started with a pan too) as any dirt on the chain just falls through the basket to the bottom and doesn't get back on the chain like it does in a pan.
I am getting between 300-1000 miles on a chain, obviously depending on conditions.
I did get 1500 miles out of the road bike chain because I forgot to check when I last did it, but it didn't sound like it needed done, plus it only really got used in the dry.
I have a poor commuting bike that sits out in the garden in all weathers, its not been used that much over the last year, but the chain is as smooth as when I first waxed it, can't say that for the gear and brake cables though!
FWIW my Putoline experience has been a bit trial and error but it is very very good. I'm a novice bike mechanic so please excuse my stating the obvious in any of my experiences below.
Initially I Puto'd a new but thoroughly degreased chain (degreasing process was petrol 8hrs, degreaser couple of hrs, methswas a few times - till it was clear basically - I know plenty of people will say no need to degrease a new chain but that's what I did in case the factory grease stopped the Putoline sticking. Yes, yes osmosis/capillary action, but the factory grease is designed not to come off I was told so I figured I'd help it along). My chain was therefore pristine when I started.
I bathed it in in the Puto, probably too hot as I had it up to 160c in the DFF, and didn't wipe any excess off. After every ride I washed the bike and in most cases I dried the chain with compressed air and sprayed it with GT85. The jockey wheels, and the chain ring to a degree, were pretty gunked up with excess Puto and I had to scrape/wipe them clean regularly. After a month of riding exclusively on gravel type trails with a few muddy puddles and the odd bit of 6 inch deep mud I started to notice rust appearing on the inside of the links and on the cassette after I had washed/dried. I concluded that I had basically washed most of the Puto out with excessive GT85 application - the chain wasn't noisy though.
I Puto'd my original chain and this time I wiped the excess off the outside of the chain while it was still hot. Although I was cleaning the bike regularly I just wiped the chain with a cloth impregnated with a bit of GT85/MucOff equivalent. No rust and no gunk build up on the jockey wheels. This chain lasted about 350 miles of winter riding (same conditions as above - wet trails etc) and then all of a sudden I heard noises like a grinding bearing - turns out it was the chain. Quick swap back to the other one I had standing by ready, and good to go again. The second chain I wiped after its Puto bath and I'll see how it goes...
I have checked the wear on the first chain and it's still at .5 after about 400 eBike miles - not sure if that's good or not as I haven't got 10000's of miles of chain wear to compare it to.
Observations:
Small DFF is best as the chain can sit in the basket and be retrieved easily - slow cooker is a no as it takes hours to heat up.
Not too hot 120c -140c
Keep 2 chains on the go so it's a quick process to swap to a fresh one.
It's much better/easier/cheaper than making your own wax (I tried this and it was great in the dry but no good in the wet)
It's better than any other bottled lubes I tried as they need reapplying basically after every ride and they attract all sorts of dirt so you have to clean the chain too. Putoline seems to actually keep the chain and cassette clean.
Anyway - that's my experience if it helps anyone make a decision. 👍
Having read a lot of this thread, is there actually a consensus on whether a new chain can go straight in the DFF or does it need cleaning?
I put my last one straight in. My next one might get a little degrease as an experiment with some panel wipe
Two different chains on two different bikes
This isn't really a question on putoline but asking as having to take my chain off to lube is causing the question. Does it matter ifthe chain goes on a different way up? Like the side of the chain that touches the cogs then next time it's the other side as there's no markings on the chain depicting this
Perhaps it even decreases cog wear, or the opposite? Thoughts?
Sram nx if that's important
Important but not vital I'd say. There are actually 4 different orientations, not just two - same way up but run it 'in reverse' and then flip the chain over to use the other side. Of course whichever way you have it some of the wear is evened up by the derailleur jockey wheels that are designed to touch both sides but I don't think that has as much effect as some others might say.
It's also why I really don't recommend 32:16 for single speeds, with the two being such a close factor of each other, at the points in the pedal stroke where you put most power on (particularly going up hill at low revs) you are using exactly the same bit of the rear cog. if you consider where your right foot is full power to the chain at the '2 o'clock' position, call that tooth zero. When the left foot is at the same position half a rev later - tooth 16!! On the rear it's doing a rev each time and EXACTLY THE SAME teeth are engaged. Other teeth are barely used under load.
I know 32:16 is 'the law' but honestly it's madness. This is why I'd only use prime numbered cogs, 17 or 19 and adjust the front accordingly, 32:17 or 34:19. I'd ideally have preferred an odd numbered front cog too, but could never find a NW 33 or 35.
...but could never find a NW 33 or 35.
There's a good reason for that, if you think about it! 😉
someone did explain it but the maths got quite complex iirc
/2 complex?! 🙂
I didn't say too complex, just quite. It was all to do with the chain plate sizing and relative proportions to the respective size of the teeth on a NW which leads to incorrect meshing but that's a whole different kettle of fish and irrelevant to the putoline chain orientation question, suffice to say no-one makes 33 or 35T NW chainrings 'for technical reasons'.
Mate if you have an odd number of teeth it would go narrow wide narrow wide narrow wide narrow narrow wide...
Yes, but the narrow will work in both inner and outer plates. As long as it doesn't go narrow wide narrow wide narrow wide narrow wide wide
Yeah but then it'll be out of sync, the extra narrow will mean that the next wide will be trying to fit into a narrow slot in the chain!
suffice to say no-one makes 33 or 35T NW chainrings ‘for technical reasons’
- in that it is impossible.
Pedantically, if it ends with two narrows together, or two wides together, it is not a narrow-wide tooth pattern.
But more practically, on every second rotation of the chain ring all the wide teeth would be trying to engage into the narrow slots of the chain, which is not helpful for chain retention.
But getting back to the original subject of the thread, is there a consensus that Putoline should be used at around 120-140C and that 160+ is too hot? And a used chain does not need a degrease before it's first use of Putoline?
Yeah but then it’ll be out of sync, the extra narrow will mean that the next wide will be trying to fit into a narrow slot in the chain!
so make it a narrow?
yes I know, I think this is the third time I've argued this and still they come. FWIW the prime numbered cog thing is also BS. I can show you the maths for that as well
In other news, Mortimer and Whitehouse are doing an episode from STW Towers.
But getting back to the original subject of the thread, is there a consensus that Putoline should be used at around 120-140C and that 160+ is too hot? And a used chain does not need a degrease before it’s first use of Putoline?
I still think best practice would be to immerse chain at the hottest temperature you are comfortable with (I think I've used 180C but typically now 160C). This will help clean chain and makes wax as runny as possible to get right into rollers.
Then I just turn the fryer off and keep jiggling/checking chain until the wax is starting to solidify (takes at least half and hour) at which point I'll take basket out and hang on edge of fryer to let chain cool. I'll then wipe of excess whilst it's still a little bit runny, and job done!
One wipe with a GT85 rag and a first ride usually deal with any blobs of wax you've missed, especially if it's a muddy ride.
Crikey some of you lot have a hell of a procedure.
When the chain starts making "dry noises" a quick shake in a jam jar of white spirit then into the pan of putoline ar 170 degrees. Turn off the flame let it site for 10 mins, fish it out with some pliers, quick wipe trying not to burn hand then straight back on the bike.
I don't do anything to it in between rides, just lash it away. Sometimes it will be really filthy the next time I get it out, a quick spray of wd40 and a run through a rag and its quiet again.
Sometimes if its been wet next time there will be a rust evident, just ignore.
Repeat every 3 months or so or when it sounds "dry". I rarely ever clean my bikes either.
Chains are cheap, I'll just replace when they start to show wear. New chains go straight in the putoline pan.
Can hot wax really run out of the chain to any significant degree? I think that even if it's very hot, capillary action in the thin gaps between chain parts will mean it will retain a lot of wax.
I tend to run mine to the hot end of it's range, around 170, agitating the basket until it stops bubbling to make sure the air gets out and wax gets right into the chain.
@alexnharvey - I don't know the physics, but at higher temps (say, above an indicate 150 on my cheapy DFF), I definitely don't get as long out of an application before the chain sounds noisy again.
Well they say one good experiment is worth a ton of mouthflapping. Will try dropping the temp before removal next time.
is there a consensus that Putoline should be used at around 120-140C and that 160+ is too hot?
My current thinking is 160 for summer, 120 for winter.
Can hot wax really run out of the chain to any significant degree?
Depends what you mean by significant. It still works fine at 160, but it is a lot thicker at 120 which means you have a thicker layer.
My current thinking is 160 for summer, 120 for winter.
And the logic is?
I'm sold on it, been on mostly my Hardtail this year with lockdown and the chain has just reached .75. that's unheard of for me.
Some truly manky rides after the admittedly glorious spring. Quite a few rides filling the drivetrain with Berkshire clag, followed by Swinley sand, then Berkshire clag again.
Plenty of Chilterns clag too.
Damnit I added a photo to a post earlier.
I think if you get it too hot excess runs out of the chain rather than holding in it.
And the logic is?
Hotter = thinner, so more runs out, meaning less excess and a somewhat cleaner drivetrain. Sufficient for dry summer conditions.
Cooler = thicker so more stays in, so lasts longer in filth.
It's only a theory. Warmer temps did work well for me this summer which was overall quite dry for me, I had a permanently clean drivetrain and I was getting loads of miles from one frying.
I emailed Putoline yesterday and asked what was the optimum temp.....
The melting temperature from this Putoline Chainwax product is approx. 55 degrees Celsius. Don’t heat it up above approx. 70 degrees.
Best Regards,
Bernard Voortman
Bernard Voortman
Technical Support Manager
Lol, D'OH!
Interesting as I was about to post about the Silca Hot Melt Wax which only requires to be immersed in a pot of *almost* boiling water, but then the Silca stuff requires a clinically degreased and clean chain to start with...
70? really? Blimey!
I asked why and this was the reply..
It will evaporate (awful smell) and it’s starting to “burn” (higher temperatures).
The light wax/oil fractions will evaporates quicker than the more heavy ones and the rest product will be for that reason thicker
Hmm.... could that explain the poor results some of us have had with our 'first' applications? We basically hadn't burned off enough of the light wax/oil fractions and these made the wax less durable?
Doh! Just dunked my first chain, in at about 150C, let it cool to 120C and out to hang.
I wonder if @tjagain has had his Putoline slowly change as it looses all the lighter parts of the wax mixture, but hasn’t noticed. Maybe time to buy another tin and compare in the name of scientific investigation TJ?
Bugger.
Will try mine as low as it'll go next time.
Could try today, as it's a rest day and I plan to MTB at the weekend.
Hmm…. could that explain the poor results some of us have had with our ‘first’ applications? We basically hadn’t burned off enough of the light wax/oil fractions and these made the wax less durable?
No you are not meant to burn off any of the compound.
I have my spare ready to go so I'm goin to do it again at 70 and see what happens (if my DFF will even go that low!!)
I still have half a tin left so I might swap it over in case i have ruined it by having it too hot.
I also asked if it was necessary to degrease a new chain....
It’s not necessary to degrease it before wax it. Only clean the chain from dust and dirty mud etc. Die the heat, the normal grease will be removed also for a part.
I think that means no - one can just dunk it in...
Worth noting I don't get any bubbles and I get minimal smoke, so the lighter fractions can't be that volatile. Although if I dunk a chain that's dry but has had say Shimano Wet on it, I do see bubbles from the chain, suggesting that the wet lube has lighter fractions in it that are evaporating at fryer temps.
I always clean my chain thoroughly (shaken in a pot of paraffin) before putolining. I have no idea if it's beneficial, it's certainly not 100% essential, but I just don't like the thought of putting a manky chain in clean lube. Doesn't take any length of time and definitely doesn't cause any harm so I'll keep doing it I reckon.
Wow, so you’ve all been applying it incorrectly? Be interesting to see what happens with applications at 70degs
For all those binning their fryers, Argos also do a mini slow cooker for £11.99 😉
I bought one cos I went with Molten Speed Wax, who say the correct temp is 93C (max 104C) so a fryer is too hot.
Lowest setting on the dff is 80 degrees.
Just trying that now.
Though I went for an insanely wet ride earlier today, and my chain was still quiet at the end of the ride.
Was going to redo it anyway, so we'll see if lower temp = better.
Hmmm, 15 mins at 80c and it's still solid.
Maybe we've been pranked?
Just read the safety sheet on the website, and the only temperature info is that the melting point is 68c and the flash point is approx 200c.
No warnings about heating to 120-150c.
So I've just tried mine at 80 which is the lowest setting on the DFF. I used Mrs P's digital Thermapen meat thermometer (shhh!) and it said the temp was up near 100. I put the cold metal chain in and the temp dropped to 70 but at that temp as soon as I lifted the chain out it started to set solid on the chain meaning there was 2 - 3mm of wax on it. Far too much for my liking. I put my finger in it and it wasn't too hot at all ( I have just done the same experiment on my hot tap which was reading 60 on the thermometer but was too hot to leave my finger in obviously.) I turned the DFF up to 120 and left the chain in until the reading on the thermometer was 100 and that seemed to be a much better temp - there was no smoke or horrid smell so I'm guessing I wasn't evaporating all the oils... I lifted the chain out gave it a wipe and hung it up. Seems fine......
I have emailed Bernard again to ask what's afoot with 70 as it seems too low.
Feel free to ask Bernard yourself though technicalsupport@kroon-oil.nl
Ignoring potential wind ups and the probable lack of accuracy on a cheap fryer thermostat, I'd think a motorcycle chain would want a far thicker application than a tiny bycycle chain so would benefit from a lower temperature.
I have no idea on the temperature as I use a camp stove outside, I consider it a successful application if, when it cools, fast backpedaling makes the chain go slack where the links are full of wax.
Edit:- just saw the post using the kitchen temperature probe, brave, brave man.
Can I have your bike if she finds out?
Edit:- just saw the post using the kitchen temperature probe, brave, brave man.
Can I I’ve your bike if she finds out?
She'll never find out. It's spotless again thank goodness 🤞 And I put new batteries in too for good measure. 🙂
I wonder if @tjagain has had his Putoline slowly change as it looses all the lighter parts of the wax mixture, but hasn’t noticed. Maybe time to buy another tin and compare in the name of scientific investigation TJ?
ON my second tin now and notice no difference in a new and old tin. I certainly heat it to above 100c
It’s spotless again thank goodness
And will last for ages with no awful grinding noises, win!
Just to add another inane level of whataboutery to this discussion I did wonder if heating the chain up to >150 degrees would cause some problems for the pin/plates because of expansion? Another reason to do it as cool as it'll melt and run off?
And will last for ages with no awful grinding noises, win!
Ha ha that's hilarious. 🙂
In truth any of the cooking that requires the use of a thermometer is normally done by me - still she wouldn't be happy if she knew it had been in my bike oil!
My guess is that it must be more difficult to read the temp of wax oil for some reason - I left the probe in until the temp stopped climbing so it wasn't a case that the wax immediately surrounding the probe cooled down and gave a false reading. It definitely wasn't at 70 degrees though as my finger will confirm.
I have to say I'm puzzled.
Just did two chains in cooler wax. Took ages to heat up, and the wax was definitely thicker. Set the dial to 120 and it obviously wasn't that hot, did one chain that way as normal. Some bubbles came up on agitation. Let it cool to around 90 on the dial, dunked the chain and it came up a congealed black blob so clearly too cool.
NO! Having spent the last few years free styling Putoline on a camping stove in the garage a couple of days ago I pushed the £15 click and collect button for the DFF from the ‘gos (as frankly there is F all else exciting these days), was going to pick up this afternoon BUT now...
@molgrips I would guess that dunkin a cold chain in the lower temperature wax would seriously lower the wax temp even further and it would probably take a relatively long time for both the chain and wax to get back up to temp. You didn't say how long you left it in for? Must admit, I'm a bit doubtful of the lower temp advice given further up the thread but am willing to be educated.
Suggest leaving the chain on top of the wax while it heats so it’s less cold when it goes into the wax.
I wonder if the DFFs have an actual thermostat or if the temp readings are approximations for oil temps? Might explain why they’re so far out.
Just took the plunge and ordered a tin of putoline. I'm currently using molten speed wax on my mtb and road bike. I have 4 chains in rotation on my road bike and it's been a bit of a faff this winter, since MSW doesn't seem to last more than a couple of rides on a chain and often I'm left with a rusty cassette and chain links after wet/damp rides.
I'll just put the chains in boiling water to clean them and then replace the MSW in my slow cooker with the putoline.
Do many others use putoline on their road bikes? Get any rust, or just wipe down with a GT85 rag?
I have no idea what temp my fryer does it at- I just treat the chain when the consistency feels right, which for me is thicker than oil, thinner than custard. Precision!
Did a couple of experiments with my Asda DFF (£15) and my contactless temperature gun.
Surprisingly, the temperature settings on the dff are surprisingly accurate... almost perfect.
Heated up to 120 degrees then left to cool, the Putoline was still very much a thin liquid at 70 degrees, and started to thicken up as it dropped through the 60s. Solid by about 64 degrees.
Do many others use putoline on their road bikes? Get any rust, or just wipe down with a GT85 rag?
Yep, on the winter road bike. I just wipe down with GT85 after each ride, very little rust, much cleaner than previous wet lube applications, quiet and durable. Pretty pleased.
thicker than oil, thinner than custard
I feel this is how we should measure viscosity from now on
nickc
thicker than oil, thinner than custardI feel this is how we should measure viscosity from now on
Carefull now! This could lead to a debate on how thick custard should be. Personally I like it thin, OH likes it thick.....ooer missus!...........I feel you should reconsider..
Thinner than custard which is exactly as thick as my custard
@Northwind Please.....this isn't the sort of place for that sort of talk!
If you can’t slice it, it’s too thin.
Custard, not Putoline obvs.
Briefly rotate bowl 90 degrees so it is vertical, custard remains in bowl = appropriately thick, custard now on floor = too thin 👍
CBA looking back through thread.
Is there any visible wax on chain after it's been dunked in the putoline. Does it go black after a while or just a regular wipe down clear the chain.
Tempted to dabble for new rainbow chain in the AXS groupset bought.
There's visible wax even after a wipedown. It's sticky stuff!
So Bernard's response to my question as to whether 70c was definitely correct....
Probably a little bit higher temperature, but I thought not really more, but you can easy try it. I am sure it not 100 degrees, normally waxes will be fluid around the mentioned temperature.
Regards and have a nice weekend.
Bernard
I'm going to try testing the temp again.....
TBH his answer isn't exactly brimming with the confidence of expertise.
My down gear changes on a putoline setup seem to be really sluggish when it's down near freezing. Is it possible the wax is too sticky at low temperatures or just all in my head?
(XT mech with serviced clutch and new inner and outer cable)
Quite plausible
I've noticed my road bike drivetrain feels 'heavy' with the Putoline drivetrain, but only in the stand, still haven't figured it out.
The wheel freewheels for ever, the cranks spin freely in the BB, pedals spin freely, jockey wheels lubed, it's really weird.
XT mech with serviced clutch and new inner and outer cable
Have you checked shifting with the clutch off? I reduced the tension on my GRX clutch and the shifting improved.
If the temp is too low, the layer of wax that melts will insulate the remaining wax. You'd need to agitate the bulk wax or turn the temperature up.
There's quite a bit more excess on the chain after the first ride after frying at a lower temp - as expected. But the whole thing is greasy and clearly very waterproof even after a wet ride. So I'm expecting it to last loads longer. I've wiped the outside down and it's not overly messy - and the rest of the drivetrain (cassette, jockey wheels and chainring) are still clean so despite this it's still an improvement on normal wet lube.
Interestingly, my Sram chain is a lot shinier and cleaner looking than the Shimano one. It's possible that the Shimano one is a duller finish or the outer plates have rusted slightly.
So I wonder how often you would expect it to last on a motorbike chain? I can't imagine having to reapply it every 500 miles or so is going to be appealing to most/all motorbike riders so perhaps the lower temp keeps it really thick on the chain. Possibly too thick for cyclists though...
I've ordered a thermometer so I am going to test it again. it's interesting that there is no mention of temperature anywhere on the website or data sheets (other than flashpoint/melting point) it just says to put the tin on the cooker. I would imagine that this would potentially get a lot hotter than 70? Maybe the aluminium tin dissipates the heat or something so it doesn't get too hot......
TBH his answer isn’t exactly brimming with the confidence of expertise.
LOL who needs experts anyway. This stuff has zero instructions and even the maker hasn't a clue.
Why even use a thermometer? Like a chip pan on the hob if it starts stinking or smoking it's too hot, turn it off.
Ah chip pans on the hob, them were the days, come back from the pub, chop some potatoes with your sharpest knife, wang them into a smoking pan of boiling fat. Totally safe after 9 pints of "premium" lager. Whoever thought that was a good idea.
Ah Yes, I have a mate with some nasty scars up his arm from an after pub chip pan fire. Made the classic mistake of picking up the pan to take outside.
almost perfect.
Heated up to 120 degrees then left to cool, the Putoline was still very much a thin liquid at 70 degrees, and started to thicken up as it dropped through the 60s. Solid by about 64 degrees.
That sounds about right, the thermostat will be on the metal bowl, so a bit like the ice in your single malt is probably at -18C (because it's in a 40% v/v ethanol solution) but the outside of the glass is nearer room temperature, but left indefinitely the thermostat on your radiator will melt the ice and the whole lot will be at ~19C or whatever.
Then to freeze it again you need to get the whole room down to -18 but that will probably be a much slower and even process.
So I wonder how often you would expect it to last on a motorbike chain?
It's designed for non-O ring chains, so generally motocross now. Doing the chain every weekend is probably the least part of maintenance for a 'crosser.
speedway riders also - my father in law sponsors one of the Edinburgh Monarchs riders, and as soon as he smelled the garage as the chains were in my DFF, he said "ah, putloline! smells just like the Monarchs' pits"