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unklehomered - MemberRusty - no need to replace seals unless they are leaking. then its a repair not a service.
TJ its really not, service of this kind should bare minimum include dust seal and foam rings and I would say oil seals too. If they're leaking you're waaayyy too late.
why? do you change brake seals befoer they fail?
tehre simply is no need to replace a seal that is not leaking. why would you? You clean and lube the fork. thats all thats needed. No other similar application do you change seals if they are not leaking
[i]"In excess of £450"[/i]
Then you will need some.
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and a.
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Sorry dude.
You're being ripped.
You're paying for an experienced and skilled worker to maintain your bike to the highest possible standards,
You seem to be confusing a bike mechanic in an LBS with a NASA assembly line. No offense intended to bike mechanics but it's a bike, it consists of a pile of interchangeable and easily replaceable parts, mostly held on by an allen bolt or two.
5 mins an end on hopesI'd love to see the youtube video of this from starting with the bike on the floor and the tools all neatly put away to finishing with it all in the start state and everythign cleaned up.
I did mine last thursday between getting home from work, and going for a ride. Took half an hour, including getting naked, putting the washing machine on, finding all the cycling kit that should have been in my backpack but wasn't, filling a waterbottle, putting biking kit on and pedaling up the street.
Wheels off,
Tyre levers in to space out pads
Reservoir caps off
top up fluid
ring spanner on nipple
pipe on nipple
squeeze lever/open/close nipple/release lever
repeat several times at each end.
top up resevoirs,
seals back on
caps back on
wheels back on.
"No other similar application do you change seals if they are not leaking "
good workshop practice especially if its listed in the service schedule. - preventative maintainance.
i can name a few applications where its standard practice to remove and replace seals after EVERY use regardless of condition.
TandemJeremy - Memberunklehomered - Member
Rusty - no need to replace seals unless they are leaking. then its a repair not a service.
TJ its really not, service of this kind should bare minimum include dust seal and foam rings and I would say oil seals too. If they're leaking you're waaayyy too late.
why? do you change brake seals befoer they fail?
tehre simply is no need to replace a seal that is not leaking. why would you? You clean and lube the fork. thats all thats needed. No other similar application do you change seals if they are not leaking
[b]p-r-e-v-e-n-t-a-t-i-v-e m-a-i-n-t-e-n-a-n-c-e??[/b]
Because its cheap and easy to do whilst you're doing the oil change, plus it'll royally bugger up your internals and cost £££s if they start letting crap in between services.
[i]i can name a few applications where its standard practice to remove and replace seals after EVERY use regardless of condition. [/i]
Space shuttle underbelly fuel tank ?.
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£450 for a service!!!!!
why? do you change brake seals before they fail?
So far yup. Only on oros, shimano less likely to need it.
Old oro seals weren't leaking but they were degrading, making pad retraction an issue and letting crap into the caliper. Like a fork seal which is nearing death will let crap into the lowers. Even a good seal may still let some crap into the lowers... dust seals also get get crap stuck in them which will slowly begin to damage the stanchions usually around the sag line, where its back forth probably 10s of thousands of times in a ride...
Your forks though, your decision, but if a bike shop said they were servicing my forks and just change the oil i would be pretty darn narked.
a bit less hi-tech than that solo.
possibly one of the more rough and ready industries tbh who adopt the we need a bigger hammer thought process !
It's often lack of preventative maintenance that causes the real problems - people who, instead of replacing a chain when it gets worn, ride it until the cassette, chainrings and jockey wheels are knackered as well - stuff like that. People who, instead of replacing (rim) brake pads occasionally, ride until the steel pad holder cuts a hole in the rim. Stuff like that.
People often say "while you're at it, do anything else that needs doing" - I try to ascertain if they really mean that before they leave 😉
[i]£450 for a service!!!!! [/i]
😯
You could buy a car for that.
Well if yo want to waste your money changing perfectly good seals then do so
Bike forks is the only application of this sort where I have seen this recommended. You do not with motorcycle forks, you cannot with shimano brakes as no seals are available
I really fail to see why you would want to replace a perfectly good seal.
Hang-on.
For £450, couldn't the OP do a course or summ-at ?.
or...
Go on holiday ?.
Just as an extreme example, I had someone bring me in his Scorpion fs (one of [url= http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/scorpion_fs.shtml ]these[/url] for you non-recumbent people) - he said he hit something on the pavement, and a small bolt had broken.
It had. It was the rear wishbone securing bolt. The reason it had broken was that the wishbone had been shoved hard rearwards. The wishbone doesn't like doing that, so it had also bent the anti-roll bar and, more importantly, knackered the main frame at the LH headset.
That needed a new mainframe, plus a full stripdown and rebuild. Ended up costing about £1000. For something that came in for a snapped bolt.
BenCopper.
Sounds more like accident repair rather than a routine service.
The usual it costs £XX for XXXX
No it costs £xx from merlin. Unless he went to merlin to get serviced its a pointless comparison.
The OP chose to pay someone to do it all for him. Its always cheaper to do it yourself and search out for the best buy something you won't get at one place.
Only an itemised bill can say if this was a rip off or not. (the receipt needs to be compared to other LBS prices not just Best Online Price)
TJ as an individual doing my own fork i do not change the seals
as a mechanic in a shop following a service schedule i did - reason being - if i didnt and in 1 hours time the fork fails - guess whos picking up the bill ?
you cannot assertain from looking at the seal its life span from that moment onwards.
another thing to bear in mind is that with the best will in the world , the best teachers in the world and the best instructional videos in the world - some people just cannot wield a spanner.
trail_rat - MemberTJ as an individual doing my own fork i do not change the seals
as a mechanic in a shop following a service schedule i did - reason being - if i didnt and in 1 hours time the fork fails - guess whos picking up the bill ?
Fair enough - if its in the schedule then yo do it when acting professionally and disturbing seals can make them fail
Sounds more like accident repair rather than a routine service.
True - it was an extreme example of something that was just "one little thing" that was far from the case. A maintenance example would be the numerous Bromptons which come in for one broken spoke, and under examination they need a full wheel rebuild (knackered rim), new rear pivot bushings, new transmission, new brake blocks and cables. Often people ride bikes until they stop working completely - by then they need a lot more fixed than that one straw that broke the camel's back.
as a mechanic in a shop following a service schedule i did - reason being - if i didnt and in 1 hours time the fork fails - guess whos picking up the bill ?
Exactly. If it's your own equipment, no problem if it needs the work redoing again a month down the line because a small consumable part goes, if some has paid, they're not going to accept that.
If working on other peoples stuff, you do all you can to ensure the work is done thoroughly and correctly first go. You do all you can to reduce the risk of error.
Yup, it's the same reason I patch my own inner tubes, but always put a new tube in for customers.
[i]Often people ride bikes until they stop working completely - by then they need a lot more fixed than that one straw that broke the camel's back. [/i]
That is very true and a good example of just how well designed the bike is that it can be made to keep going when its so far from being in perfect condition.
I carry out certain tasks on my car and nearly all work on my bikes.
WRT bikes, I do this as I can then satisfy my own level of attention to set-up and workman ship, etc.
squeeze lever/open/close nipple/release lever
It takes me a bit longer to bleed brakes as I have to say this out loud while doing it! But even I can manage two hope brakes in under an hour.
I don't actually think you are being ripped off. You are simply paying a premium for not knowing how to do it yourself. The LBS is charging what they think you will pay
So I assume DS has been on the phone to the LBS now and asked for the breakdown of what work needs doing???
If we are not allowed to speculate on whats wrong, at least give us the facts!
Experienced and skilled????
Sometimes maybe, but 'rushed and underpaid' could also be just as true. I've seen some right howlers of mistakes, bodges and corners cut by LBSs. I've had to correct them for other people
This. Most jobs don't require much skill so really it's just a case of time and attention. Something that is in short supply from a busy, underpaid mechanic.
The LBS is charging what they think you will pay
Not sure if that's what you meant, but I doubt the shop looks at each job/customer individually and weighs up what the most they reckon they can get out of them is.
They'll probably just work out what the parts are going to cost (at list price, not scouring the internet for the best deals), how long they reckon it's going to take them, and what their hourly rate is to arrive at a figure which will [b]always[/b] be substantially more than you could do it for yourself.
IMHO if they're charging for things that don't need replacing (e.g. mechs, cranksets etc) then yes, that's a ripoff. Otherwise it's just their price to make it all go away, which the OP can either accept or not.
Also as said above when people say "What? Get that from Merlin for £xx" they're basically writing off their own time as being worth zero, and very likely conveniently forgetting all the faffing around the job itself. The LBS will be charging for both those things.
That said, the prices shops charge for this stuff does need to be backed up by a decent standard of work, and often it's lacking. For me that was just as much a factor as the cost when I started to do it all myself.
So what you are all saying is you want to pay peanuts for bike servicing, but you don't want monkeys working on your bike right?
The cost the OP gave is about right for an LBS. * if it is nessecary to replace all those parts
Proper lolling at TJ the master mechanic too 😆
Why Ziggy?
So what you are all saying is you want to pay peanuts for bike servicing, but you don't want monkeys working on your bike right?
Who's saying that?
not all mechanics are underpaid either ..... I wasnt and i know a few folk still making good coin from it !
just gotta pick your shop well and then justify your pay packet with a skillset - unfortunantly just being "the" mechanic isnt going to justify that.
4 pages in an hour....good effort folks!
The same amount of time that it takes to bleed a brake (if you're charging by the hour that is)
How much time does a bike shop mechanic need to spend on STW every hour?
It's only right the customer pays for this IMO.
[i]How much time does a bike shop mechanic need to spend on STW every hour?
It's only right the customer pays for this IMO.
[/i]
😆 😆
You only need new chainrings if your old drivetrain was TOTALLY knackered.
You almost certainly don't need a new rear mech - they go on for ever unless you smash them on a rock. I'm running 2007 parts and I've got a 2000 mech somewhere that's still fine.
You might need a new front mech if you've got it caught on something and twisted it, otherwise the same as for rear mechs.
Forks do need servicing, £80 or so would be reasonable.
You should learn to do this stuff yourself - it's incredibly easy.
Seems to be plenty of folk here who would like to see lbs owners/workers condemned to <min wage for ever 😕
I never use a shop for servicing but would expect them to make a decent living from it if I did.
I expect dn want the LBS to make a decent living on servicing - I did link to MY lbs servicing costs.
In the case of the OP tho I believe the costs seem on the surface well over the top.
[i]You almost certainly don't need a new rear mech[/i]
maybe he wanted to upgrade from something lower down the groupset peckign order?
[i]You should learn to do this stuff yourself - it's incredibly easy. [/i]
So's servicing cars but a lot of people are happy to pay someone else to do it and use the time on doign other things.
Not everyone enjoys mechanical tinkering or has the time to do it.
How much time does a bike shop mechanic need to spend on STW every hour?
I'm procrastinating while doing the VAT return 🙂
I wonder if this is tax deductable?
There seems to be a lot of assumptions in this thread. In fact almost every post since the first is completely made up. No one actually knows what the OP has asked for, or what service the bike got. So pricing it is no more possible than intergalactic space travel.
So here's a typical derek_starship thread. Open with an obviously contentious statement, thin on detail, then walk away, ideal breeding ground for the frothers. 🙂
So here's a typical derek_starship thread. Open with an obviously contentious statement, thin on detail, then walk away.
He's good at it though isn't he? 😀
So's servicing cars but a lot of people are happy to pay someone else to do it and use the time on doign other things.
Not really a valid comparison. We're talking about a number of repairs on the OP's bike, not a routine service. I wouldn't describe changing the clutch as easy.
Must be well knackered to need the lot doing. If your time poor / cash rich its an easy option I guess.
National bike shop tried to charge my work colleague £480 for exactly the same work on a 1 year old bike.
We ordered the parts from CRC and had them delivered to work (amazing next day delivery). We fitted the parts in under 30 minutes in the car park. Total cost for the parts was just under £100 (SLX cassette, chain, jockey wheels, middle ring and two pairs of juicy brake pads).
Forks didn't need a service, shop just thought they needed one due to the condition of the drive train . Brakes didn't need bleeding, they came up firm with new pads.
This appears to be a revenue generation scam.
So he wrecked a drive train inside the forks service interval - 20-30hrs ?
Not saying its not possible - ive certainly done it but its not normal.
I struggle with long sentences but these appears to be a huge amount of guff on this thread, one randomly chosen example:
You almost certainly don't need a new rear mech - they go on for ever unless you smash them on a rock. I'm running 2007 parts and I've got a 2000 mech somewhere that's still fine.
Crap! Loads of folk year them out quickly. 10s speed is more sensitive to year than 9 than 8 too.
One issue is the lack of specification on the op, nowhere near enough detail for the armchair expert lbs managers to work out the price.
Derek if you have space and time, DIY. Get a workstand, the Park tool '3 allen keys in a starshape' things and a copy of the Build Your Own Mountain Bike DVD. Watch it through, it shows you how most parts go on (and therefore off).
When both my LBSs failed to sort out an issue with my M4s dragging I got sick of taking it back, rolled up my sleeves and went from there.
If you get stuck or need help on tecnical stuff, put a properly worded query here. (There are no end of knobbers on STW but there are also plenty of decent people who will help out)
You won't regret it and you'll enjoy your biking more.
Doing research out of curiosity now:
Leisure lakes catalogue a says:
SLX chain - £30
Cassette - £55
Rings - £50 for all 3
Bottom bracket £15 to£40 let's say £30
Devore cables £25
Brake pads assuming SLX £15 an end so £30
Fork service - £90 from TFT
So £310 in parts and "contracted out service"
Aside for this there will be:
Pretty much strip and re-build - frame. There isn't much left.
The wheels will have been checked and trued/tensioned if necessary. Hubs will also have been checked and possibly adjusted. Possibly with new bearings fitted if cup and cone.
Brake bleed is great and quick when it goes well but can be problematic!
The fork will have been removed and replaced. With adjustment.
So that is a fair amount of likely work for £140 assuming my guess on parts is correct. And yes I know parts are cheaper on eBay but that is a decision you make when you prefer the service of a LBS.
No one has been ripped off. Just charged retail prices for a fairly major lump of work. I may well be light
on parts but reckon that I am there give or take. As for labour - it is going to be an hour to sort the brakes front and rear, and I would guess a further 90 mins to 2 hours to sort the rest of the mess is not unreasonable!
All this talk of doing it yourself got me thinking that I should really tackle the 'trickier' jobs that I normally pass onto the LBS. Which led me in a roundabout way to this page
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-bike-maintenance-website-ideascheme-opinions-wanted ]http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-bike-maintenance-website-ideascheme-opinions-wanted[/url]
which has some really good links for DIY guides a few posts down the page. Particularly liked the Pinkbike guides.
But if anyone can recommend a day course in the Bath/Swindon area, I'd be interested. (Apologies for the post-hijack).
This is why I talk to my customers about the bike they have brought in and show them how to check things if they are interested in listening so there are less surprises in the future.
It is always worth getting to know your bike even if you don't do the work yourself.
What is it with bikers that make them the meanest consumers on the planet at the expense of keeping your bike on the go and your lbs in existence ?
Seriously, if you think this is a rip-off get a like for like quote.
This is why I talk to my customers about the bike they have brought in and show them how to check things if they are interested in listening so there are less surprises in the future.
Yes, it also makes them appreciate more why things cost what they do. Like when I go through my tools and explain how much they cost 🙂
£66
£27.50 for the MOT
£28 filler cap (it was broken, but looks like the spanner monkey might have broken it a bit more than it already was as the fault had been there for ages and it was in several pieces when I got the car back!)
£8.50 for a new bulb and cleaning out the connectors
I have no problem spending good money on a proper service.
My time is too valueable and my attention too limited to faff with my bike for hours.
Its the booking bit that's got me stuffed. Perhaps they should charge more IMO.
Slight sidetrack:
My LBS asked me to wait 10 days to bleed my brakes (damn avids!) as the workshop was full. I am well known in the store as I spend loads there and my bikes break frequently.
Obviously no regular rider would want to wait this long with our current weather, so I asked the manager if I could pay one of his mechanics cash to do it in his own time. I offered to pay him twice whatever his hourly rate at the shop is to do it in his own time.
I was quite abruptly and rudely refused.
I've now changed LBS as of yesterday.
I can't see what his problem was really but I have no issue paying good money for quick and reliable service.
Hmm, I can see why the manager would be annoyed by that, unless you were suggesting that this mechanic could do it with your tools in your garage or something?
Absolutely - and insurance? And who keeps the shop open longer?
Oh, and the "I've spent lots of money here, I want special service" line never goes down well 🙂
Loyalty and special service is all an LBS has to offer and it what you pay for.
Otherwise I'd use online retailers.
It's a free desperate market and I'm sure one of the kids would have loved the opportunity to earn a few extra quid.
I dont see the problem with paying his overtime.
But where would you expect him to do the work?
Hugor - you are a doc - would do do cash work on the side uninsured?
You said pay him cash.
What manager wants to encourage his staff to moonlight? What precedent would it set?
In a shed instead of an operating theatre 🙂
Don't care where he does the work as long as he fixes it. He can take it home. It's only a bleed FFS!
As for overtime and insurance I regularly work beyond the European safe hours directive which effectively means I am uninsured so yes I do!
I don't get a penny extra though!
And he can use his own tools, and his own stock of oil? And if he messes up and your brakes fail, you won't sue him?
If it's that simple, do it yourself!hugor - Member
It's only a bleed FFS!
Don't want to derail further from the OP but he's got a better chance of getting it right than I have.
Litigation is not something I considered TBH.
If I spent too much time worrying about that I couldn't do my job either. I'll take that though.
Are people really that feeble, time poor and/or profligate to pay such stupid sums to "service" a bike? I mean I'd not begrudge the LBS the revenue it seems fair considering the whole feeding/clothing/housing their family thing for them to charge the going rate for labour and parts...
But a £450 bill to keep a bike rolling? what sort of useless **** lets it get in that sort of state and then uses the twin defenses of being too inept and too busy/important for such menial labour?
Half an hour every weekend (maybe the odd hour now and then) is about all it takes - order your spares/tools/oil & lubes online, save a packet and learn a little... Then again I suppose IT won't manage itself now will it...
STW 🙄 FFS....
Lbs please fit my rrp parts for nowt - boo or hooray?
Bill that size? I'd buy a decent donor bike, swap over the necessary bits, sell the rest and come out smiling.
Good call cookeaa - I bet these malcontents who work in IT are just to stupid or lazy for the deep satisfaction simple folk like us get from maintaining forks, brakes and drivetrain-
..let's toss our old pads at them: whilst we service ourselves for 30 mins each week?
Sorry to say this but your ignorance of things mechanical is clear and the LBS is treating you in the same way as a car dealer would a driver who has no idea about cars, i.e. a cash cow.
The first clue is that you even put the bike in for a service.... bikes don't need regular services, they need constant checking and maintenance especially when used in off-road conditions.
Wow,
SLX 44/32/22 chainset
SLX 11-34 cassette & Shimano chain
X2 Shimano jockey wheels
X4 Shimano resin brake pads
Shimano mineral oil
£160.84 delivered (action sports.de)
£40-45 cashback if you sell the new crank arms on here.
Rockshox service manual - Free download
Shimano service Manual - Free download
Icetoolz Cassette removal tool - £6'ish
Chain whip - £10'ish
Reba service kit - £39 from TFtuned (includes enough oil)
So that's £195. I think I'd be studying the service manuals long and hard.
Writing off another £50 for anything I have missed then your paying them £200 in labour costs!
I suppose it may seem daunting for a novice but there are plenty of good tutorials out there.
Jesus, the thought alone of being mugged for £200+ in labour costs would be an incentive to learn.
I think given labour costs, and the parts at RRP we can agree it works out. My concern is the need for all those parts. But OP hasn't come back to describe the state of the bike, but in my early days I once went into a LBS thinking my mech was broke and needed replacement, and they sorted it with sensible maintenance. Could easily have sold me a new one.
I know its maybe not the done thing, but I would hope to get a discount on RRP if I was spending that much and having it fitted in house. Not down to CRC type prices no, but maybe 5 or 10%.
Comparing it all to the cost of doing it yourself with Superstar pads and bits from Ribble is daft, of course your LBS will cost more.
Litigation is not something I considered TBH.
If I spent too much time worrying about that I couldn't do my job either. I'll take that though.
Litigation might not be something [i]you[/i] have considered, but this thread just goes to show how difficult customers can be even under quite fair circumstances. And inside working hours any reputable business will have insurance to cover mishaps, negating the need to worry about it. Outside of working hours they are screwed. And managers instructing employees to work under such circumstances screwed even further.
I don't know why you're having a go at the OP for not knowing much about the mechanical intricacies of his bike. Not everyone cares to service their own bike or learn how to service forks or set up a derailleur or whatever, there are bike shops for this sort of thing.
If a service existed where my bike was collected, fixed up and returned to me in perfect working order every month or so I would use it.
presumably he knew if it worked or not, if chain was skipping, gear selection was ****ed etc...
I regularly work beyond the European safe hours directive which effectively means I am uninsured so yes I do
I smell BS....
hugor in the time you've spent faffing trying to get your brakes bled, then add in the time to take it to the shop and pick it up and then take it back again because they likely won't do it properly, you could easily have taught yourself and have done it.
next time you need it there is no learning curve and you'll do it quicker, and when you went not a couple of weeks ahead
Hugor - you are a doc - would do do cash work on the side uninsured?
My doctor brother in law does cash in hand side work. Makes a fortune botoxing vain middle aged women. An absolute fortune.
I don't know why you're having a go at the OP for not knowing much about the mechanical intricacies of his bike. Not everyone cares to service their own bike or learn how to service forks or set up a derailleur or whatever, there are bike shops for this sort of thing.
I think the term is willful ignorance, and when your sat by the side of a track trying to repair you bike with a rock because you were too important to learn some basics on the function and maintenance of a (relatively simple) machine, the rest of us will just point and laugh* at your foolishness...
If a service existed where my bike was collected, fixed up and returned to me in perfect working order every month or so I would use it.
Such services do exist, but they ain't free...
I have no sympathy for the OP or anyone else who is unable to operate their own opposable thumbs, and hence get an unexpectedly high bill...
Of course its more than likely that evolution will see most them off within the next couple of generations, I imagine most will starve to death when faced with a can opener...
*Most people won't really point or laugh, they'll offer help and/or tools, but the world would be a slightly better place if useless people were a bit less useless and bothered to learn how to maintain/fix things for themselves...