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Anyone converted a Fox 36 RC2 to Coil using the PUSH ACS Couil conversion kit?
Worth it? Lots better? Reliability?
Nice conversion but a lot of £££££ Looked at a Luftkappe?
It's a lot smoother off the top than ANY air fork I've tried...especially after a few months of riding....it stays smoother for longer, reacts a bit better to repeated braking bumps, harder to tune but if you can be arsed messing about with springs....pays off....because of the independent dual rate spring system.... similar to what rally cars and baja trucks have....main spring for setting ride height....secondary spring for bottom out force....latter spring doesnt effect tge former...and is 300g heavier than your air setup....and shitting expensive.
You will end up with the best fork on the market bar an ACS3 Grip 2 fork.....and you'll pay a lot of money for that last 5 percent of performance.
Looks great. It's not cheap but there is alot more to it than the coil conversion Pike kit I got for my Pikes - which is brilliant and has converted me into a 'coil lover', and that came in at about half the price I think...so the additional cost of this might be worth it...at the end of the day it will be like buying a brand new fork and they cost alot more than this conversion.
One thing about Push is they seem to be the real deal. I had my previous Fox CTD shock rebuilt with Push internals and it was a significant improvement and I've often drooled over their rear shock, but it's a tad pricey! so I think the claims they make for this coil conversion kit will deliver.
Yeah Scott, my ACS kit ended up even smootger than my coil Pikes ever were. Nit sure if thats the Kashima or the effort Push put into reducing coil bindand thus frictiin between the coil and inside if the stanchion.
Loving mine, forks much smoother, especially small bump and chatter sensitivity. I’m right between two spring weights so if I went to anywhere really lumpy I’d need the heavier spring.
I'm right on the border of the blue and green, I'm running the Green spring which gives me 21 percent sag and 10 psi in the bottom out spring (which governs the last third of travel) which leaves me with about an inch left over on a typical red descent....which is what I want.
The green spring is supple enough for me off the top, if I was running the softer blue spring Ming - I'd consider running the new Grip 2 damper, bumping the air spring up to 30+ psi, stiffen the high speed rebound damping and run the low speed rebound quite fast so the softer spring didn't pack down as much.
I have had the 36's pushed for rebound for about a yr which made the compression damping brilliant and fitted the AC3 about 3 months ago. As mention above the small bump compliance is amazing and the top out/progression works really well to change the linear nature of the coli spring so an amazing fork now but more push than fox!!!
Tbh, unless you arr well outside the 75kg average that Fox seem to base their tunes on, the RC2 stock damper is great once you coil it. It feels overdamped because of the considerable frictiion in the iFox air assay, at 6 clicksof LSC and 6 clicks of HSC it actually now feels on the underdamped side.
How are we all getting on hmm? I'm looking at getting this done in March but wondering if i should wait for the Vorsprung smashpot thingie, if it ever comes out.... Still think its a worthwhile upgrade?
Still think it's worthwhile but I think Vorsprungs will be even better, 10 coils to choose from and a secondary adjustable bypass damper, like rally cars and Baja trucks? Ever wondered how the suspension is so soft - but when the get sendy they don't bottom out hard and they don't bounce? Bypass dampers are the answer.
Means you get the bottom out resistance without the rebound kicking back at you. Which will also mean you can run your midstroke rebound quicker
Cheers, interesting. I presume that you choose a kit for a certain amount of travel and you are stuck with that? Want 150mm now but 160 in a year for a new build....
Vorsprung kit is adjustable travel I believe.
Take my money Vorsprung!
you can pre order if you are in the states/Canada. no word from TFtuned yet.
by 'here' i mean Sweden. my 'dealer' (haha i love that use of the word) has said it is available to book in for a late feb. conversion
Can anybody explain the difference between the push and the vorsprung bottom out systems please - I know the push system "kicks in" part way through the travel when the shaft hits the damper thing and the vorsprung seems to do its thing from the start of the travel but I'm struggling to understand the difference in how they work - aren't they both just a hydraulic damper of sorts, so essentially the same thing executed differently?
VorsprungSuspension (7 hours ago)
The Push kit is a really good concept - coil performance for the first 2/3 of the travel with an adjustable anti-bottoming system. Fundamentally both the ACS and Smashpot pretty similar there, and with any given spring rate you'll notice absolutely zero difference in performance during the first 2/3rds of so of the travel since a coil spring is a coil spring. Both have anti-bottoming systems which as a whole achieve a pretty similar thing.
However, the Smashpot is cheaper, has internally adjustable travel, goes to both longer AND shorter travel settings, has a wider range of spring rates available, is transferable between forks at a minimum of cost, has no components impacting one another mid travel, has no air seals to worry about, doesn't need a shock pump to adjust and is guaranteed* to get you laid.
*eventually, probably.
The ability to change the travle is a big thing for me. I want to run 160-170mmm on the next bike i have planned at the end of this year, but want to get a full season at 150mmfirst
The vorsprung is a position sensitive and speed sensitive damper that only kicks in, in the last 50mm of travel like the push ACS3.
That is where the similarities end, the PUSH conversion effects spring rate and creates a two stage spring. Meaning that the force of an impact is transmitted back to you during the rebound stage.
The vorsprung damper uses the same principles found on wrc and Baja dampers, the damping is position sensitive and bottom out control is governed by the hydraulics. Using dampers to do this means that bottom out control does not effect the rebound speed and means that rally cars can fling themselves of jumps and land in a nice pillowy fashion without the difficult to control rebound of two stage spring setups.
Steve mentions something similar in the pinkbike comments, but because he's a terminally nice guy he doesn't want to be a dick to PUSH.
I have the PUSH kit, it's good but incredibly sensitive to minute changes in air pressure in terms of bottom out control and it also feels like a bit of a bodge compared to this kit. The vorsprung kit is giving you functionally similar technology to what is found in EXT mtb and rally car dampers.
Thanks. Trying to get my head around it!
https://jalopnik.com/how-a-rally-suspension-works-1750488986
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-suspension2.htm
Springs store energy and return it, dampers dissipate it.
Let's say I make my spring setup more progressive by adding more air, I then have to slow the rebound down to keep the end stroke under control. Well now I also have a slower rebounding midstroke and have possibly compromised the performance of the fork in the midstroke. Some shocks and dampers have high speed rebound adjustment, but on the CCDB and the DHX2 these are hardly independent from the low speed circuits and as Steve has explained in his tech Tuesday videos - essentially useless. Not sure about the GRIP 2 damper though.
Basically doing this hydraulically makes your optimum rebound settings easier to achieve as the rebound is linear.
Just had a very quick skim, is that a full length spring (ie no long rod)? If so I’d guess it’s the heaviest of the 3 approaches I’ve seen so far. Price point is likely to sit between TF/CRConception and Push too, which is interesting (and makes it very tempting)
My Push conversion added 300 odd grams, so it won't be much heavier.
Not that you should care if you are going coil.
I'll be moving to this as my current bike is optimised around a 180mm fork.
Yep, that's really the price. It was going to be $419.99 but the stickers pushed the price up by $0.70.
That's it, i'm in.
mine is ordered. The mechanic said 'i admire your commitment'
Oh wow, Steve just sent me an email directed to me personally to update me that the kit was now available and he'd ship it direct to me if I wanted otherwise kits are enroute to dealers.
Woot, the guy is crazy motivated!
Having.
It's a coil party!
#coilmasterace
Because i’m being impatient (and cheap). Thinking about a Yari conversion. Does the cheapo damper work any better/worse alongside the coil setup? Certainly coil Boxxers had no issue at all, but has it been tweaked to go with the air spring?
Wouldn’t mind saving £100+ and getting a setup without extra bottom out control of it’s not needed
If anyone is interested i have a Yari/Lyrik CRConception coil kit for 160mm conversion. I hadnt planned on selling it, but this thread made me think i probably should as its sat in a drawer since changing forks.
What’s the difference between a push coil Fox 36 from nowadays compared to a van 36 rc2 from 2006 (apart from tapered steerer)? Is it better or just shiny as it’s newer? Honest question as I really love my 2006 fork.
Ganic, what weight are you (and how much sag do you run)? Might be interested, but maybe not so much point if I need to go hunting for a replacement spring
Grip 2 damper is quite a bit better, bit lighter even with the coil conversion, more bottom out control.
Do we know how much springs cost in case you buy the wrong one?
TFtuned will usually let you swap it for free...
Grip 2 damper is quite a bit better, bit lighter even with the coil conversion, more bottom out control.
Ok. I get the lighter bit. Why is everything else better?
I have high and low speed compression which is buttery smooth on the small stuff and it takes the big hits well. I never felt the need for more bottom out control.
Do we know how much springs cost in case you buy the wrong one?
$60(CAD) iirc. At a guess, £30-40 by the time they get here
Im 176lbs, but have two springs for the set up, one softer and a firmer spring, both Rockshox springs, sag can be adjusted with 2 inserts, but i ran it at around 15 - 20%
Sent you a PM rather than clogging up the thread
Ok. I get the lighter bit. Why is everything else better?
I have high and low speed compression which is buttery smooth on the small stuff and it takes the big hits well. I never felt the need for more bottom out control.
Improved damper seals with lower friction. Improved damper tunes (external damping adjustment is not the be all and end all). Proper mid-valve shimstack. Clever way of externally adjusting high speed rebound. Self bleeding damper design meaning it's more resistant to air getting into the damper. Damper the right way round meaning that the unsprung weight is better and the fork is more reactive.
Coil forks when combined with closed system dampers with no bottom out control are a bit meh and always always a fine balancing act of having to add a lot of high speed damping to resist bottoming or harshness.
The bottom out control on the Vorsprung system is better than the PUSH one in my opinion - and if you read the rest of the thread and understand what it is, then you can understand why it would allow you to improve your bike setup. For example, it would allow you to tune the speed sensitive damping on the right leg damper for brake dive and midstroke support only - without having to worry about end stroke performance - which can then be dallied in on the coil side damper. Allowing you to separate the damping zones and attain the optimal setup for both. Which is great, because your high speed adjuster has a higher effect on the mid-stroke of the fork where shaft speeds are the highest - meaning that when you increase it to give yourself that bottoming support, you are quickly going to make the midstroke too harsh.
If you're happy with a 26 inch bike, then I wouldn't bother. But if I was looking to upgrade to a 650b or 29er, I'd also be wanting to get off a 13 year old fork due in part to safety as well.
I'm looking at the vorsprung coil kit for my 2017 lyrik, not sure if I would be better off selling it and getting a mrp ribbon coil or maybe helm coil instead?
I think the Vorsprung kit would be better.
The Helm is just a standard spring and I don't even think the MRP bottom out system is actually truly functional.
The Vorsprung kit and Lyrik can be adjusted all the way up to 180mm, both those forks top out at 160mm. Something to keep in mind, the Lyril would be more adaptable for a wider range of bikes.
Yep the bottom out system looks good on the vorsprung, hadn't really thought about the travel adjust thing but that is pretty handy too!
Vorsprung Smashpot is now making it's way from TF to my garage.
Hope to have get time to fit it over the weekend.
My old man just ordered one, it's at his tomorrow! I'll be ordering one when I have a bit more spare cash.
Just got mine, unfortunately dont have all the required tools to fit it so it'll be another few days yet. Should have checked what tools were needed really!
What tools do you need? Cassette remover to take air spring cap. 5mm for base of leg and a big socket or spanner for the new top cap? Anything I've missed?
Quite a list of tools:
Looks complicated.
I might wait until the LBS has done a few before dropping mine in.
Still tempted to just get a Helm coil.
Just about to start on my Smashpot, all the tools, some SRAM butter and fork oil lined up ready. The instructions do look intimidating but once you see the kit it seems to make sense - just hate getting the lowers back on, always a faff for me! Anyone got any tips?
just hate getting the lowers back on, always a faff for me! Anyone got any tips?
I always lock the damper out at full extension. The damper rod usually sticks out a bit more than the spring rod. This means you can locate the damper foot nut in the lowers, unlock the damper and then locate the spring footnut.
Nothing more annoying than not being able to get enough footnut threads showing for the nuts to grip
Meant actually getting the uppers through the wiper seals.
You can remove the tiny springs from the wipers, thread them through the uppers and install the lowers. The wiper seals will go through easier without the springs. Once the lowers are in place, install the springs back.
Anyone know how much weight a mid range spring one adds to a lyric? 250-450g is very vague. 450g unacceptable for me. 250g well worth a go
Looks like you’d want to do quite a neat job with the first bit of heatshrink. Worthwhile having a heat gun (which they oddly miss from the tools list, but then immediately mention it)
Anyone know how much weight a mid range spring one adds to a lyric? 250-450g is very vague. 450g unacceptable for me. 250g well worth a go
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I'll let you know ASAP
I wonder if the quoted weight increase includes the 110ml of oil too.
Unacceptable.
Or: if you have to ask, you are not the target customer.
I was a bit thrown by the chamferless socket, 22mm cone wrench and heat gun. Oh and the torque wrench spanner adapter!