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TroutWrestler is there any chance you can get the Madison part number for the replacement swing arm from Alpine Bikes?
I have a friend with a broken green Grapil just sitting in his garage (he swore he'd never ride it again after it snapped), that I might be interested in taking on if one of these new swing arms could be obtained for it.
Thanks!
I've got a couple of hundred miles on mine now. Had some thrashing around some trail centres in Wales. Lots of rocks drops and jumps. Still in one piece. Seems like a good bike, there's no MTB'ing I'd want to do that I can't do on this.
I've bodged some a cable rub protector onto the swing arm, but it's nigh on impossible to get it to stick to that CNC/forged linkage thing at the bottom bracket area.
I've wrapped an offcut from a chainstay protector, with a slot cut into it around the cnc part. It'll either kill or cure.
I'm still contemplating the integrated headset, looks like it would've fitted...
Try
https://sugru.com/buy/?gclid=CPqc-ayisMQCFSsKwwodyw8Arw
For protection
I'll try to find out when I collect it. Alpine Bikes have been much more helpful than the Madison "helpline".
I picked up the bike tonight. Looks good. The new swingarm is the curved weld design with no graphics. Time will tell if I trust it enough for a 10-day Colorado/Utah trip.
I asked about the part number, but the lad who I spoke to didn't know. Apparently any Genesis dealer should be able to tell you.
The guys at sprockets cycles in Kilmarnock have an ex demo Grapil with the new swing arm fitted 1x10 set up with s dropped all for £1099.99
http://www.sprocketscycles.com/grapil-20-18#.VQtatIqQGJI
I haven't heard of any problems with the revised swing arm
That demo bike appears to have the snappy chainstay...
Oooof, they do need long hoses don't they! Longer than my large anthem 29er.
New brakes time then. This isn't quite the cheap rebuild of my carbon 456 as I was aiming for.*
* well its still darn cheap for what it is becoming...
Turns out the new style swing arm snaps too, mine let go mid corner today on the drive side.
Both being Madison brands I cant see how Genesis got it so wrong while Saracen can happily win world championship DH races
I've actually been back to Alpine bikes. I had an annoying creak, when pedalling under load. It turned out to be the dropouts, but investigations revealed that the seatstays are bent. One of the pivots is about 8-10mm out compared to the other. It is difficult to get the pivot bolt in on whatever is the second side.
AB are going to contact Genesis on Monday. My position is the bend on the seatstays is as a result of the snap of the chainstay.
hope you get yours sorted Troutwrestler. Good bikes when they are working!
any pics of the snap jamesoz?
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*Groan*
Jamesoz - hard lines dude, your warrantee will still be good though, hopefully? And if they've run out of chainstays you might get a Kili flyer out of it*!
*this statement has no basis in reality but if madison are listening: do it, doooo iiit!
Jeez, how hard are you guys riding these things! Does seem to be pot luck which frames break and which ones don't. Or do I simply ride like a wuss?
welshfarmer - Member
Jeez, how hard are you guys riding these things! Does seem to be pot luck which frames break and which ones don't. Or do I simply ride like a wuss?
POSTED 31 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Middle aged man with a prolapsed disc hard.
AGAIN it looks like extremely poor weld penetration. The chainstay is literally pulling off the casting under tension. The weld has come off in a one-er. There is more contact between the pieces on the newer design, but the weld still looks poor.
Anyone from Madison/Genesis able to comment? Someone in design/QC must have something to add...
Time for Madison to give up on this one I think. Glad I opted out when I had the chance.
I've had a Grapil for a couple of years now after a frame swap. I snapped the chainstay about a year ago but wasn't covered under warranty as I wasn't the original purchaser. When I questioned Madison about the design/welding quality issue, here's the response I got:
[i]These frames/bikes were never withdrawn from sale, [b]it was a problem that only affected a small minority of the bikes, a large majority of the frames have no issue at all[/b].[/i]
[i]You would be able to buy the rear chain stay however through one of our dealers. All dealers can be found at the following link: http://www.madison.co.uk/dealers.
Kind Regards,
Helen Baines
Warranty Assistant Manager[/i]
Seems like that "small minority"is increasing!
Well I've stripped it down and emailed ukbikesdepot. What I can't get out of my head is if it's replaced and it fails again at a critical moment before a drop or on a narrow track I'm gonna get hurt. As it is it now has a dent in the down tube where I abandoned ship.
So maybe something similar that has 26 inch wheels 31.6 post and a 142 back end?
You can still get Saracen Ariel frames with 26ins wheels & 140 or so mm travel, the 14x. Could be worth seeing if Madison will replace for one of those..
So maybe something similar that has 26 inch wheels 31.6 post and a 142 back end?
You can still get Saracen Ariel frames with 26ins wheels & 140 or so mm travel, the 14x. Could be worth seeing if Madison will replace for one of those..
I'm pretty sure they're 30.9mm, Madison offered me a couple of options from Saracen but I didn't really fancy any of their bikes and it also would have meant buying a new dropper post. Isn't there some reports of linkage tolerance issues on 14x bikes too?
Bandit 26 (later ones) fits the bill if you're buying 2nd hand, fun fun fun bikes compared to the Grapil.
The grapil is 30.9 too. At least both mine have been!
My Grapil is definitely 31.6
My mistake. 31.6. Not sure why I had it in my head it was 30.9. Glad I didn't win that Reverb on Ebay now 🙂
Oh the joys of getting old
I had a Saracen 14X, no problems with the linkage for me, it's an all Alu frame and I think the wobbly back end came with the newer bikes that switched to a carbon rear triangle.
Great bike though, would happily have another....bastards stole my one!
Update on the bent seatstays on the Grapil.
Genesis wanted the whole bike to assess the distortion of the seatstay. The seatstay sits about 8mm too high at the driveside seatstay pivot. When the bolt is through the pivot, but not engaged with the threads it is gripped by the shear force across the pivot, and it can't be pulled out by hand. I need to compress the seatstay down to remove/insert the bolt.
On the nds, the inverse is true with the seatstay down relative to the chainstay.
Photos have been sent to Genesis by Alpine.
Dropped mine off in the week, apparently the only new design to fail. The whole frames gone back to genesis I believe. It's done maybe 150 miles of Swinley, so nothing that rough.
Probably a good idea to actually get out & ride mine then before it breaks out of sheer boredom sat in the garage 😳
I'm half thinking about stripping the back end out of mine to check the alignment of the rear triangle... Just a thought.
Well, I guess it had to happen 🙁
After nearly 12 months with this, my second frame, the non-driveside chainstay finally went pop tonight. Bare in mind this is an original design, has done a week at Les Arcs and 1000 miles of natural singletrack around the Brecon Beacons and I guess it has feared far better than many of them. I heard it crack and on the next bump felt it shift, so was able to stop before any more damage was done. I am going to get my brother (a TIG welder by trade) to see if he can repair it and add some extra bracing around the whole shebang. Meanwhile I guess I will be looking for another frame. Hmmm, Liteville 301 anyone? 🙂
Grapil - lump of iron useful only for lobbing off cliffs.
Oh well at least I didn't do anything stupid like buying one.
D'OH!
Well mines been returned, pretty damned quickly with nice new chainstays. Unfortunately the head tube has been squashed.
I'm really enjoying riding mine, potential issue aside, I think it's a great frame. Running it massively mismatched with a 150mm fork + external headset, but as we all know, it's unlikely to fail at the headset first!
If it lasts 1-2 years I'll be happy, would have lost more than it cost in depreciation in that time on nearly any other new FS anyway.
@ Jamesoz. Is yours a large? I can provide you with a perfect front end with a new 1 degree slackset for a good price. Or if you want you can sell me your new chainstays 🙂
Sorry Welshfarmer, it's been taken back again by courier.
I'm really enjoying riding mine, potential issue aside, I think it's a great frame. Running it massively mismatched with a 150mm fork + external headset, but as we all know, it's unlikely to fail at the headset first!
Been happy with my first outing too 🙂 off to the Brecons Beacons for a couple of weekends at the end of the month, so will see how it fairs then
OK, finally literally minutes away from its first outing.
What pressure are folk running on their rear shock and how much do you weigh? Just after a starting point...
Ta
No idea, 12st 4oz, mine's in the boot of the car now, see if i can a cheeky hour in after work. Assuming the arse doesn't fall off you'll find it a little ripper of a bike. 😀
165-170 on mine, 90kg. Not sure how accurate shock pump readings are from one to another though.
If i sit on it, seatpost up, its between 25-30% sag as indicated on the shock.
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^^Nice 🙂
Got out on mine this afternoon. Second ride on it since I finished building it and my fourth ride in the 21 months since the birth of our daughter, so nothing too extreme. Still fine tuning too. Need to reduce shock pressure a bit (only at 120 psi but only getting 2/3 travel) and add a click or two of rebound damping. Other than that very pleased.
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I think the STW review mentioned that the shock can only get 2/3rd of the travel.
Pretty sure the shock that comes with the Grapil is a 200x57 with an internal spacer that makes it behave like a 200x50 shock to limit travel to 120mm. The frame is certainly designed to run with 140 mm of rear travel as I have a 200x57 Fox RP23 on mine. Side by side with the original Monarch RCT3 there is no external difference in length and stroke, although it does say 200x50 on the Monarch???
Well, you live and learn. Does it not have the BB scraping its arse on the floor though (a la dog with worms)? Have ha a few pedal strikes as it is.
With shock fitted it is identical, irrespective of whether it is the standard "51mm" stroke one or the 57mm one. (I have just held them next to each other in the shed and they really are identical?). The only time the BB would be a bit lower with the longer stroke is in the last 20mm of travel and you would be unlikely to be pedalling if into that part of the shock.
BTW, just for info I have given my broken chainstay and rear triangle to a local ally fabricator (works on F1 & WRC cars and is a keen downhill MTB racer) with a view to getting it repaired better than original. Luckily I felt it break and did not twist anything so repair is a simple re-weld. I have made some additional strengthening which he may weld in if he thinks it will help. What I can say is that he was appalled by the quality of the weld that broke and could see almost no penetration. I will report back on the repair when done (he is very busy so may be another week or so).
My Grapil, with new chainstay, but bent seatstays, is back with Madison/Genesis. They have no new seatstay, so I have been offered a Saracen Ariel 14x, or a refund.
The Ariels seem to have potential tolerance issues...
This is my build to date.
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Rear triangle back from welding. It was blasted first (hence very white colour of the raw alli) and the stay welded on. I then got him to weld in a "horseshoe" of 6mm bar I had bent to fit, in order to add some bridging strength to the join. Time will tell whether it helps or leads to more stress and fracture. Surely cannot be worse than the original. The weld quality is light-years ahead of the original.
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Looks fittingly agricultural.
Might try a bit harder at breaking mine, I quite fancy an ariel
Err, just regreasing the pivots (practically dry when I gost them open) and not sure if i've lost a spacer/washer, is there one on the DRIVE side for the seatstay pivot?
@welshfarmer any idea if there is a spacer in there? might open my can up and see if it can be removed and if I'm able to get that 140mm travel.
If you mean the bushed pivot between the rear triangle and the shock there is only one spacer, on the lower pivot (not the frame one), and that is on the NDS...
so you are OK 🙂
It would be worth checking the main bearings (the red ones on my pic above) as my original ones seized within a few months. Worth cleaning them out and repacking with new grease before they die. I replaced mine with full contact Enduro Max bearings which seem better. There are 2 spacers on the main pivot through those red bearings so beware of loosing them!
Well, today mine was creaking like anything, and when i got home I found big crack along the drive-side chainstay weld.
This is a new frame too, been ridden for 5 months / 300 miles.
Just contacted the place i bought it from so the frame is probably going to be sent back soon.
Unlucky, was it the new back end without decals? I'm still waiting for my replacement for the frame the couriers bent after the stays were replaced. Starting to think I don't want mine back as I can be pretty sure the arse won't fall off my steel hardtail 20 miles from home.
Yes, its the new chainstay with no decals. Is that two that have broken now?
No regrets from me cutting my losses and moving on, bikes are supposed to be fun, not a pain.
Hmm, lost my last post? Yep mine was the first apparently. Not had mine for nearly two months now, not really missing it and if Madison had packed the frame properly in the correct box I gave it back in it probably wouldn't have been damaged.
All in I wouldn't touch a Genesis again if they can't weld or get somebody to weld a swing arm and Madison can't return a frame properly packaged.
How is everyone getting on with their frames? Mine is going well, no problems to report yet! It's even been up and down Snowdon so hopefully that indicates a strong rear end...*touch wood*
I'm pondering a change of rear shock - Cotic have got some cheap ones going and I'm mighty tempted - can anyone advise? I'm contemplating the Marzocchi Roco Lo 200x57. Firstly, is this shock any use? Second, because its the full 57 stroke, will this give me more travel than the 200x51 Monarch currently in place? AFAK, the shock is actually a 200x57 but limited to 51 stroke to keep the rear travel at 120mm...
Any input gratefully received! Thanks
Mine survived Nan Bield yesterday so still chugging along. Loving it actually, ace little bike.
Have been mulling the shock change myself but TBH I haven't yet missed 20 more travels.
You need to check the tune on the replacement shock and see if it is suitable for your bike. If not factor in the price of sending it of to a suspension specialist to get it retuned.
A longer stroke shock will give you longer travel but you need to check you have correct clearance and it won't cause problems eg the bridge on the seat stays could hit the seat tube.
A longer eye to eye (e2e) shock will (I think) cause the geometry to change, raising the BB height and steepen the seat angle.
Have you thought about getting the current shock tuned or upgraded instead of getting a new one?
Mine developed an ominous creak sounding like it was coming from the bb / main pivot area after not very many gentle outings. On investigation it turned out to be... a loose bolt.
Anticlimax I know, I had the outrage bus all fueled and ready to go.
Forgotten what mine looks like. Nice bump, I'll ask for my cash back tomorrow.
I only ever ran mine with a 200x57 shock in M M tune and with a high volume air can. Was used that way for 2 years. Withstood a trip to the Alps and did Snowdon (and plenty of other stuff besides) before finally snapping the weld at the Black Mountains Cycle Centre (see details of repair above.) Since being repaired I have ridden it a few times and it has done a fair few miles for a mate who borrowed it. All without coming apart again. Am now contemplating selling it on, just not sure whether to sell as frame only or as a complete bike???
FYI, I emailed Genesis re the shock length query and this was the reply:
It is possible to run a shock with a longer stroke on the Grapil, increasing the travel to 140. Please see below for further info :
120mm rear travel = the supplied 51mm stroke shock (200mm eye-to-eye)
140mm travel = a longer 57mm stroke shock (200mm eye-to-eye length)As long as the new shock you are looking at is within those measurements, it should fit and work fine !
Interesting!
Has anyone found a source of replacement dropouts/mech hangers, or a part number for them? Can they be bought online, or is it a bike shop order thing? Could do with picking up a spare fairly quickly.
I've done 145 miles on mine and its handled everything I've thrown at it to date (touch wood). I actually love it, when to town with the spec and produced a really fun ride.
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nice! (you tried to link to the page rather than image)
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Haven't seen any dropouts listed on any webshops, had a poke around the madison B2B site & couldn't see them, but my LBS phoned up madison & ordered them, so they are avaiable, any LBS with a madison account should be able to get them for you. From memory it was something like £20 a side.
OK, little update. I wanted this bike to be my fun bike for mostly pointing downhill. My Anthem 29er performs the all rounder role quite nicely.
Anyway, after the first few rides on the grapil it felt like it should be well on the way to what I want in theory, but wasn't quite there,a little too 'all roundery' with a cheeky fun side. It had a lowish bb, slackish ht angle and was long ish. It was designed around 125mm rear and 140 front and had a reputation for being hardtail like to ride... exactly what I'm after. I don't like to wallow in suspension travell, but my back suffers on a ht in the peaks these days. I wanted to run a short stem to keep the weight back on some of the steep rocky peaks descents, but with a 60mm stem on standard geometry it was a bit twitchy and didn't turn in too nicely. The seat angle was a little steep so that with a reverb even with the seat all the way back on the rails, I was still too far forwards with the seat up on pedally up bits. The back tyre dragged like crazy too...
SO I got pondering. What this basically needs for what I wanted is to slacken it off.
It's had a little make-over:-
* Added 2off Offset shock bushes (seat angle dropped back 1.5 deg ish, bb dropped a little)
* Took advantage of discounted Works Components 2 degree slackset
* Needed to change the forks to a straight steerer to work with above headset in the 44 head tube, so got some Sektors cheap and removed a travel spacer, so now running 150mm at the front.
* Replaced rear tyre with a Smorgasbord
And I've just taken it for it's maiden post-surgery blast round Parkwood Springs....
Ooooof!!! Mods worked exactly as intended.... really really good fun, handles nicely & really well balanced - lovely two wheel drifts 🙂 And no pedal strikes yet 🙂 Was laughing out loud riding the thing, just what I needed on a Friday afternoon!
26 is most definitely not dead 🙂
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Having replaced mine with a Liteville 301 as my go-to bike for the rough stuff I have actually gone the other way with mine since repairing it. I removed the angle set, put back the original 120mm shock in place of the 140 one I was running, and stuck it back as a 2x10 set up. I took it out the other day for a longish ride around the Doethie Valley in Mid Wales followed by a lap of the Cwm Rhaeder trail centre. I had forgotten how well it climbs and tackles the technical ups of roots and rocks. I found myself riding up stuff I wouldn't normally expect to conquer. And in the trail centre I was popping of everything I could find. Great fun. Best bit was that my repairs are fine and it didn't break 🙂
Interesting mods CP, very interesting indeed! I know what you mean re the twitchy steering, I've been pondering how to resolve that myself...
After all your mods, what do you recon the head angle and seat angle are at now? You said the offset bushes lowered the bb and slackened the seat angle, wouldn't this have shifted the HA as well? And then more HA slackening with the slackset - the head angle must be, what 65 ish now?! Slaaaaaack!!
Got a more side on photo so we can see the changes in all their glory?
Last q - did you go for burgtec bushes or the cheaper offsetbushing.com ones?
Cheers!
Yes, the offset bushes knock 1.5 degrees off the head angle too.
The genesis brochure lists the angles static with a 140mm fork, seat angle at 73.5 and head angle at 67.5
I'm going to assume the combination of 10mm longer fork and the lower volume (2.25 vs. 2.4) rear tyre offset the slight shortening effect the slackest has on fork length.
Offset bushes... seat angle 72 and head angle 66 degrees
Slackset - seat angle 72 and head angle 64 degrees.
For me (long legged 6 footer) this seems to work really rather well.
EDIT - bushings were from offsetbushings.com The supplied spacers were a little too wide (I didn't provide measurements, just frame and shock spec) so just re-used the original Genesis supplied ones.
64!! Bloody hell, no more twitchy steering then... 😀
For what it's worth, here's the side view - I'm not a fan of these as lens, distance from bike, angle looking at bike etc... all distort things anyway, but make of it what you will.
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Thanks for posting cp!!
For what it's worth, here's the side view - I'm not a fan of these as lens, distance from bike, angle looking at bike etc... all distort things anyway, but make of it what you will.
Fellow Sheffield-based Grapil owner, albeit the 10. What offset bushings did you use, a pair of 6mm? It's noticably twitchy at the moment so on your recommendation I'm going ot try some bushings. Not had it long but upgraded to 1x10/Zee set up and swapped the red bits for black/grey. Love it!