[Closed] PSA: Fancy a BTR? Now is the time.

I really hope sales pick up for him. Tough times ahead for many people trying to produce solid product in the UK.

I'd buy a Pinner tomorrow if I had the money, didn't get industry deals and they were still available! I've always liked what BTR do and their honesty in their Social Media posts is pretty refreshing.
I just looked on their website and the Chaser frame never seems to get a mention, as I guess people want the 'enduro' image. But it looks like a well thought out 'do everything in reason' type bike. No head tube brace either for for me is a bonus.

Way to stay classy.

Ukrainian farmers have been pinching broken down Russian military vehicles, one of which is a BTR or Bronetransportyor. Apparently the Ukrainian president has said (with dark humour) there won't be any income tax on any stolen Russian hardware if these end up on eBay. Pretty classy from the farmers and the president IMO.

Would love a Ranger frame but £1760 is far to much when I can have a Solaris Max for well under half that. I hope they continue as I really like what BTR do but they're well out of my price range.

Dim and tasteless comment.

you realise the Ukraine farmers are taking the Russian ones for scrap.

And what the **** does that have to do with a bike company struggling to make things work?

For the avoidance of doubt - tom's post was about BTR Fabrications who make bike frames; you, either through stupidity or a failed attempt to be humorous, are referring to a russian armoured personnel carrier.
Are you clear?

Lovely looking frames but unfortunately out of my price range even if I was looking. Hope they can make it workout and get the order book filled up.

Threads pretty much dead now for discussion about the actual subject!

Will try though, it's a shame to see a company going to the wall, but the market is pretty small for those frames, and the competition is pretty high, not much anyone can do, a few more orders won't fix the problem, which is how the margin is so low in such a high priced frames, knowing the markets to work in and having a programme to maintain some way of continuing to generate income.

1700 notes for a hardtail frame...

I have absolute sympathy for what he wants to do and he wants to make a living while in the uk but if thats what its costs to buy one and he isn't getting orders it doesn't seem like a viable business. You can literally go out and buy complete bikes that will do everythign it does for that value with wheels and everything.

To be clear I am not saying its to expensive for what it is if its hand made, I'm not saying its a bad frame or anything like that, I even think they look ace.

But number of people who will spend that is pretty small and there are other options to comete with at that prce point including other smaller brands.

1700 notes for a hardtail frame

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

1700 quid?

No.

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

And I can think of at least one UK builder who will do you a decent steel HT in any colour you like for under 1k.

An insight into what BTR Fab and Burf is all about

They're maybe not helped by being slightly odd compared to their competitors, like the Ranger being their "Enduro' frame but designed for a 120mm fork (Can you even buy a 120 fork thats suitable?), and the Chaser pegged as "Trail" with 100mm. Add that to the fact that the Ranger is 1780 (bottle bolts and dropper routing are extra cost), and they're a hard sell, that's a massive premium over other similar bikes, edging close to three times the cost of something like a BFeMax.

You've got to really want what BTR are selling to pay the extra, and they're very niche as a result. Look at 18 Bikes, their 853 UK made frame is a whole SolarisMax cheaper. I spent decent money on a hardtail recently, I did consider a BTR, but they just weren't an option for me, for the reasons above.

I appreciate they're hand made, high quality, etc but maybe there's a compromise to be made to broaden their appeal so that they cans sell more.

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

Oh! I didn't realise BTR did road frames too... in that case the business case for a crazy expensive mountain bike istotally there and i take it all back.

1700 is alot of money, not just a bit spendy but full on a major expense, you're talking a months paypacket for the average salary in the uk, its more than the average utility bills for a year. or 10 months of running a car.

Its an expensive product, its irrelevant if there are more expensive ones. If his order books are empty his business isn't viable either throgh no market or poor marketing.

I'd love for that not to be the case but even if 100 people stepped up and ordered right now having been umming and ahing for years whats he gonna make out of that £170000 and where are the next 100 going to come from?

Oh! I didn’t realise BTR did road frames too… in that case the business case for a crazy expensive mountain bike istotally there and i take it all back.

What I meant was, neither frames are necessities, yet one that’s mass produced & twice the price sell loads, and the cheaper, hand made, highly regarded frame hasn’t had a single order in 6 months.

I know what you meant i was being wide sorry, but think how many people know what a Cervelo is, when was the last time you saw a world champion dusting the competition on a BTR.

All i ride is steel hardtails or rigid bike but how many people want that when they can get a full boingy bike frame for that.

I’ve followed BTR since the early days of the Dirt review of the Belter - they used to work out of (and one of them slept in!) a shed not far from me and an early video was shot on my local trails.

Some years back I went around the ATC loudspeaker factory, partly hoping to learn a lot about how to run my own better. I came away with one main thought: Incredibly expensive though most ATC speakers are, once I saw how complex the manufacturing processes were I was surprised they could sell them for that “little”.

And with the BTR frames, seeing their processes via Instagram etc, it feels the same - the extra head tube brace, the chainring notch on the chainstay, etc, those details add complexity that other frames don’t have - and although I haven’t looked at other boutique builders’ processes I’d bet that few of them are going to such lengths with tube prep etc.

The other issue is that they’ve historically been more oriented towards smaller wheels and particularly to shorter forks - and their reasoning is sound but it’s not easy to get forks that short which match their gnarlier intentions.

It really is hard to make a living making stuff here but I’d argue that it’s easier with a small team than solo because you can get a lot of efficiency advantages and spread overheads across more output.

If I were in Burf’s position I’d be looking at getting similar frames made with one of the best Taiwanese builders, maybe as a part-time thing, and then aiming in the longterm to offer a small amount of custom frames that he builds if the production frames are making enough money. He might also be able to offer part-builds with forks etc sourced from the OEM Taiwan end.

It’s hard, I hope it works out ok for his life even if that means BTR ends in its current (or any) form.

Shame, look really nice.

I think people hand building like this need to raise prices to justify R&D / low volume sales.

If this was hifi the markup would be 10x production costs, sold as artisan, with some magic tech justification for price. They would only sell a few items a year but it would fund a passion business.

Far to spendy for me! Like what they're doing but they're only for dentists or someone that really wants to be different. Never gonna sell many.

@OP, I get where you're coming from, but as one of the very rare folk in a position to potentially buy one of these frames, is it telling that you didn't even call to check the wait time before choosing something else? Maybe they just aren't appealing enough.

At the time I bought my frame, end of October, he still would have had a long lead time, he’s posted up about them on Instagram before, always 6-8 months, I had no reason to think otherwise, maybe a lesson there. My patience for long lead times is still there, good things come to those that wait etc, but a couple of things that have taken north of 2 years after a promise of x months has maybe made me a little gun shy.

Sounds like my bathroom fitter :-/ . I'm sure whatever you've gone for will be worth it.

Sadly I wouldn't have thought with the nerviness Putin is causing, many folk at all will be dropping much on custom frames for the next few months.

I’ve looked at them a few times, but I’ve always thought they looked a bit ugly with that huge brace behind the head tube and have always gravitated towards a Curtis (that’s my dream bike) as they look nicer. Both are local to me and costly but I’ve just felt the BTRs aren’t as pretty (the Chaser looks nice)

Interesting comment from Burf on their Facebook about each frame order taking about 35 hours from consultation through build to shipping. That’s such a long time!

Yeah, that's a bit of time for one frame to be manufactured, you'd think they'd have the tubing pretty much ready, jigs ready and welding one up wouldn't be more than a two to four hours, then racked off, inspected and sent for painting.

Hopefully they can get their order book up though, always nice to have UK made engineering, or maybe they might be able to diversify a little if they have the machinery and welding ability, i've seen this work for companies in the past, bringing in batch jobs for other industries to manufacture kit to print, which might allow a little bit of flex in continuing the bike building.

after all the wind blown trees maybe he should fill his books with the trail tools he used to build?

I suppose we're mostly armchair experts here (I know I've never run a business, let alone something as niche as an MTB frame building company) but it is sadly the case that lots of premium, niche companies, in all sorts of sectors are going to go under in the next few years; UK discretionary spending is about to take a huge hit folks.

Consumer belts are going to be tightening over the coming months, and while I don't doubt BTR frames are worth the asking price for the man hours, materials and expertise, they simply might just not be viable any longer.

We're not poor and I could (theoretically) afford a BTR but The "Frank discussion" that would follow if I told* the missus I was buying a Belter frame, how much it costs, that I'd be needing at least the same amount on top to finish the build, and that it's only really intended for riding down hills, just isn't worth the hassle. Not when she's already convinced half our income is destined to go to the energy suppliers. I doubt I'm unique in this assessment...

*(I'm under no illusions)

A call to arms for us to go and buy very pricey bikes, just to keep two people in work at the same time as the average cost of living is about to go up significantly is sort of missing the point (IMO), it's a business not a charity.

35 hours doesn’t sound that long compared to buying a Marino bike. LoL

I doubt I’m unique in this assessment…

You're not. Things are about to get very tight around here.

I like BTR and I hope he can find a way to do what he wants to do. It sounds like he needs a way to move more/cheaper products to move some cash and cut down the time it takes to work on the big projects.

Unfortunately, posh bikes are off the menu for me for the foreseeable future.

It's a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly, if you have to charge that much for a hardtail to make so little you're doing something wrong, plenty more small businesses struggling and they aren't shooting themselves in the foot.
If you can't produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand, give it up or make some product or production changes.

I've been lusting after a pinner for years but bought a full new RocketMax for the price of a pinner frame last year.
No way with my current situation could I justify a btr, as much as a tried, if things changed and I won the lottery it would be one of my first buys.
I think the way he does things there is almost unique (if not fully unique) to Burf and it would be a huge shame to not have that passion making bikes.

I'd been after a Ranger since I first saw one in Dirt YEARS ago. Took 14 months from order to delivery, but it's gorgeous. Only just finished building it, but roll on the weekend.

https://ibb.co/d4dMKH7

Long lead times are just a huge issue in niche markets, you're basically pushing the small number of customers to competitors when telling them that it's over a year to getting the bike, it's a struggle though, as you want an order book, but you want quicker turnaround, hence why other products can help, or sub-contracts for other products in the area.

I'd love one but just can't afford it, always had a soft spot for slightly odd steel hardtails.

If you can’t produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand…

That doesn’t explain why Ti and carbon hardtails sell in higher numbers, for higher £££. I know steel is cheaper, but at this end of the market, the cost per kg of raw materials is immaterial. What people are looking for is a ride feel, a look, the craftspersonship or an X factor that isn’t on a balance sheet. Are Yeti struggling to sell their mass produced £1700 carbon hardtail?

Last I saw he had a pair of Pinner linkages going spare so two more could be built, dunno if anyone has taken him up on them.

I'm not sure if he's giving up or just being realistic about having a wage. He's poured a lot of time and money into Cindy (the CNC machine) over the last year so may yet find a revenue stream from that. Most of all though it's been supply issues that's been the issue, whether that's tubing or trail tool handles.

It’s a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly

I think that's a bit harsh TBH, they've been going for about a decade, so it's not like they became unviable overnight.

When they first started up their frames were about £5-600ish (IIRC), expensive at the time but not unheard of.

I remember watching a younger Burf racing DH, he was/is a talented rider who wanted to make (actually fabricate, not just import from SE Asia) a quality product that he cares about, I don't think that's vanity. BTR is certainly no 'Sick bikes'. Unfortunately the UK isn't a good place to actually make things anymore.

The real nub of it is simply that Brexit + Covid + escalating costs = death to small businesses.

They have my admiration, but sadly I can't really justify giving them my money...

That's a shame, but those frames are a very, very hard sell at those prices.

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn't a good look either...

A lot of the commenters on the instagram post said that they would be looking for a 29er frame instead. How difficult would it be for the creator of these frames to switch gears and start creating a similar frame but with a bigger wheel size?

My guess is pretty difficult but would be interested to know what that would take from someone more knowledgable.

This is a real shame... I remember meeting one of them, probably Burf, at one of the first kinlochleven enduros, I was having a bit of a grouch about a new tyre I'd just fitted and how I was pretty frustrated at not knowing what it'd do, and he was basically "Yeah I know the feeling, I finished welding this frame yesterday and I'm still not used to it" 🙂 I think that was the first ever Ranger. Really nice guy and obviously the sort of person who gets ridiculously difficult things done just by not quite realising that they're ridiculous and doing it anyway.

To be honest the range feels a bit confusing, and some feel a little bit left behind- like, the Ranger's geometry feels pretty conservative now. And the headtube brace is such a signature feature so it always felt weird when they released frames without it, but then that makes you wonder if they could build without it, to simplify designs or just to stop putting off people who don't like it...

Damn sad to see them go but I can't honestly say I'd be close to buying anything they make now. And Bury is such a talented guy, it seems like the bikes might be holding him back?

endomick
Free Member

It’s a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly, if you have to charge that much for a hardtail to make so little you’re doing something wrong, plenty more small businesses struggling and they aren’t shooting themselves in the foot.
If you can’t produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand, give it up or make some product or production changes.

Rule #1 Mick - I get where you're coming from but stay classy.

I'll agree it's a hard sell at the artisan pricing but can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame? A quick look at the competitors shows they start at £1200-1300. Remember there's no economies of scale with a BTR and I'm fairly sure Burf makes everything except the cable guides.

At this level it's all about marketing.

It's doubly frustrating when you see what the SICK! boys did with that brand in a relatively short period of time.

I wish I had a bit of cash I could invest/give to help turn it around as I think with a bit of work there's a decent small business there.

G

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn’t a good look either…

I spotted that but then they're all as bad each other in the 'spouting off online' department!

That doesn’t explain why Ti and carbon hardtails sell in higher numbers, for higher £££

The answer's in the question.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

Just looked at the prices and it’s £1700 for a 120mm hard tail off the peg (no custom geometry ) frame with no stealth dropper routing, bottle cage mounts or anything as they all cost extra.

Simple fact is that it’s too late expensive. And even if it something you can afford you’re probably going to look elsewhere for a longer travel fork frame. You don’t need to pick it apart any more than that really.

Never mind frames - I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

Simple fact is that it’s too late expensive.

A Curtis equivalent is 1300, so it's in the ballpark for these sorts of frames. I think it would be a shame to see them go, always admired what they do, but I've not the cash to spare to buy one. However, that's not to say that there isn't a market for these bikes, there absolutely is. There's plenty of folk with money who would have one, but that would mean changing BTR into a different sort of company altogether, and I don't know if that's the plan.

Unfortunately when I look at a Curtis after seeing a BTR its like looking at how a hardtail should be. BTRs make me think of a solution looking for a problem

A Curtis equivalent is 1300, so it’s in the ballpark for these sorts of frames

30% more expensive isn't really the same ballpark

I’ll agree it’s a hard sell at the artisan pricing but can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame?

18Bikes No9? https://www.18bikes.co.uk/2021-18-bikes-9-frame.html

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn’t a good look either…

I spotted that.

They could be the best frames in the world but it's £5225 for a Pinner with an EXT shock, internal routing and ISCG tabs. Thats pretty hard to make an argument for buying IMHO.

At this level it’s all about marketing.

Well unfortunately it's not his strong point. I know 4 people with BTRs, all have a close relationship with Burf (and previously Tam) and only 2 actually paid for their bikes. I can't remember ever chatting with anyone who was seriously considering buying one.

In my view, there are a few key things:

They're almost never in the public eye (look what even lukewarm PB reviews have done for Starling)
They are expensive compared to similar bikes
There's always been a perception that they take 1+ year to get
He's determined not to make "fashionable" bikes (150/160mm 29ers) - the problem is, those are the ones people buy

The Pinner is a cool bike for sure and I really hope he's not forced to close. It doesn't seem like the current business model is working though.

Never mind frames – I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

definitely!

UK discretionary spending is about to take a huge hit folks.

This, sadly. A lot of people who make amazing, but expensive, products are going to struggle in the face of doubling (or more) energy prices, and the knock-on effect on other household bills, not to mention rising interest rates and increased taxation.

This is a premium, luxury, product, and there are going to be a lot of high-end framebuilders competing over a shrinking group of affluent customers.

militantmandy

He’s determined not to make “fashionable” bikes (150/160mm 29ers) – the problem is, those are the ones people buy

I think that's one of the biggest issues. The Ranger is designed for a 120mm fork, but this is all the explanation you get - nothing on why they recommend a 120 fork, or why every other brand is wrong in offering long travel. IF you want someone to buy something that's far from the norm, and spend a huge premium to do so, maybe give them a reason why.

They’re almost never in the public eye (look what even lukewarm PB reviews have done for Starling)

This too - Starling have grown loads maybe five years, and are selling lots, despite not being cheap (though not BTR money). They've been willing to compromise though, they have some production (swingarms/hardtails) in Taiwan, but do their front triangles in house (think those were in Taiwan for a time too). Am sure they'd like to do it all i house, but they did the sensible thing for cost/time. Stanton too - you can get a cheaper frame, or pay a UK premium.

BTR are around for ten years or more, but they're still on bike #275. One is a business, the other is more of a hobby

I have a Ranger, so perhaps I'm chiming in with a slightly biased opinion, but it's the best steel hardtail I've had, hands down. Previously had bikes/frames from Orange, Cotic and Stanton (six in total across these brands over approx 8 years). For me having something built to my specification, by a man I can pick up the phone to and discuss the stages of the build, adds something more than walking into a shop and picking something off the shelf.

Many have this attitude towards other products, not just bikes, hence demand/high price for the workmanship. You can buy generic carbon bars for £50, or pay £160 for Hope's version. Same as their cranks or brakes. There are always pricier/boutique options, many will happily pay a little more for something UK-built and/or something a little more bespoke than what others offer.

There is no denying the base price is expensive, but I'm hoping to keep it for a good few years and using a cost-per-use basis will work out a reasonable outlay in the long run.

Starling have grown loads maybe five years, and are selling lots, despite not being cheap

They are looking increasingly reasonably priced TBH.

Well, probably not the hardtails or the steampunk freeride bikes, but the Murmur and Swoop are.

30% more expensive isn’t really the same ballpark

I don't think most folks would look at it like that though. If you choose BTR you'll make sacrifices in the rest of kit to get to your budget, If you choose the Curtis, all of a sudden that extra dosh just gets swallowed by a fancier fork or wheels or whatever. Folks have a frame in mind and a budget for a bike. If you're looking for a steel H/T that's a wee bit out of the ordinary, then both BTR or Curtis would be on everyone's shopping list.

there are going to be a lot of high-end framebuilders competing over a shrinking group of affluent customers.

Tom's inbox is going to blowing up.

CalamityJames

many will happily pay a little more for something UK-built and/or something a little more bespoke than what others offer.

That the point though, since the price increase, it hasn't been "many", it's been nobody at all

They are undoubtedly fine bikes, but they are not selling for a variety of reasons.

“The Ranger is designed for a 120mm fork, but this is all the explanation you get – nothing on why they recommend a 120 fork, or why every other brand is wrong in offering long travel”

It’s a fairly long time ago now but I started designing my own steel hardtail inspired by the BTR Ranger and my Banshee Spitfire (if I recall correctly I wanted longer chainstays than the BTR and an eccentric BB plus someone I knew said he could get me a one-off prototype cheap from his Taiwanese frame builders). In the end this happened: https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bird-zero-am-review-warning-bicycle-content/

(TLDR: 130mm fork plus -2 deg headset on the Zero allowed me to test the geometry for minimal effort and cost. 6+ years on I’m still riding the mule!)

Now I’m not a rad rider like every clip I’ve seen from BTR so it may be due to my more sedate pace (I’m not glued to the ground and I’m not that slow but my riding would only impress non-MTBers!) but for my ability level I’ve found more fork travel just works better. I didn’t ever try 120mm but the Zero was gradually increased from 130 to 140 to 150 and now I have a new hardtail frame on the way which will have 29” wheels and a 160mm fork.

So it may be that there’s a mismatch between the (often younger) riders who can shred a short travel hardtail like a Ranger and the riders who have the money to buy one (who are more likely to be my age or older). Actually now I think about it, the quickest/gnarliest riders I know in their 30s/40s/50s all ride full-sus bikes for that kind of riding, though many have hardtails for more XC, dirt jumps, pump tracks etc.

I think Starling were very cheap to begin with and had a great review from Dirt which really helped them. Also a steel single pivot was quite a USP at the time whereas steel hardtails are hardly unique so it's harder to stand out from the crowd.

dc1988
Full Member

I think Starling were very cheap to begin with and had a great review from Dirt

This review?

https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/starling-murmur-steel-bike-thats-blown-us-away

£1,500 was without a shock iirc?

I miss Dirt! Steve Jones’ reviews in particular were amazing - either nonsensical gobbledegook or evocative inspired enlightenment and you never knew what you were going to get!

That Starling review seemed to have a huge impact, not just on that one brand but on changing the conversation across MTBers from “NEW MODEL WITH 25% MOAR STIFFNESS!!!” to a better understanding of compliance.

I miss Dirt! Steve Jones’ reviews in particular were amazing – either nonsensical gobbledegook or evocative inspired enlightenment and you never knew what you were going to get!

I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background. Still bought the mag though 😀

“ I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background.”

And sideways too!

can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame?

Fill your boots:

https://www.properpushirons.com/product-page/eponym

I'm not sure I buy the proposition that 1700 quid is in the ballpark of 1700 either!

It's a shame they're unable to continue but when they came out they were undoubtedly breaking the mould and at 'reassuringly expensive' prices. Now the rest of the world is catching up and they're charging a lot for a product which for whatever reason is not being valued as highly by the market. So change something or don't.

Damn. 1700 Vs 1300!

Now the rest of the world is catching up

If they arent offering a 29er then the rest of the world has caught up and disappeared off into the distance

mashr
Full Member

Never mind frames – I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

It's good- if you're going to scratch out a line with one tool, without too much digging, it's fantastic actually, basically just takes the classic macleod and improves it a bit in that direction. But it's a bit neither one thing nor t'other and most things it does are compromised. Not heavy enough to really replace an azada or mattock for digging, and the shape and cutouts aren't ideal for tamping. IMO it could do with a plain head and a bit more substance but it's still good.

But if you're going to really dig, you're much better off with a mattock or rogue hoe. Man I love my rogue hoe, it's such an effort multiplier/muscle saver. So I'd rather carry 2 tools than use the BTR but it's definitely got its place.

finbar
Free Member

I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background.

As an experiment, I showed my dad Dirt- I think it was a page of mostly blue ink on a pink background- and asked if he could see it OK. He said yeah, no probs. Then it turned out he just couldn't tell that there was text on those sections at all.

So I emailed Dirt that and Steve told me I was wrong.

For a HT I find 120mm to 140mm to be the sweet spot depending on the rest of the bike. Anything over just seems like it would benefit from some rear suspension as the angles change too much when riding. Just shy of 45 here and prefer HT’s in general. The whole more travel thing has always seemed a bit daft for the majority of UK riding. Each to their own though.

some of the design is explained on the website

https://www.btr-fabrications.com/blog/travellers/

https://www.btr-fabrications.com/blog/sixty-one-degree/

with leadtimes
https://www.btr-fabrications.com/support/build-queue/

and other stuff
https://www.btr-fabrications.com/support/faq/

If they arent offering a 29er then the rest of the world has caught up and disappeared off into the distance

They do, both the Ranger and Chaser.

paton

some of the design is explained on the website

Yeah, was me making that point, I didn't see those when I was reading about the Ranger.

@speeder, I did say produce not sell, he claims he's never made a living wage from BTR, so if a frame takes 35hrs ( let's call it a week) sells for £1700 at least, internal routing, iscg and bottle cage mounts put it closer to £2k, then that suggests after including all his expenses, workshop rent, materials etc, he can't make the frames for under a grand.