[Closed] PROTEST TONIGHT 6PM BOW ROUNDABOUT

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Used to ride/work round there - extremely dangerous roundabout, RIP to all those killed. If ever there was justification for separated bike lanes it's here.

Good grief. Someones died, let them rest respectively and their families grieve rather than using their last place in this world to incite a protest.

Have a think about how to do this and do it in a few weeks time when a mourning period has passed.

RI[b]P[/b].

Have a think about how to do this and do it in a few weeks time when a mourning period has passed.

When everyone's conveniently forgotten about it? Far from being 'disrespectful' as you seem to suggest, it's actually an attempt to not let yet another cyclist die in vain.

Somewhat off my normal commute, but will try to get along to support. Too many deaths at this one spot alone, well overdue for something to be done about it.

Thanks for the heads up, Bez,

I'd just like to go on the record as saying if I'm ever killed on the road through the fault of rotten highway engineering, rotten driver training or rotten law enforcement, then if no-one protests to try to prevent the same happening to others then I shall come back and haunt the lot of you. And if my family were to look back on a lack of protest and say "I'm glad no-one made a fuss for others' benefit" I'll be back to haunt them as well.

I'm struggling to think of a family of one of the victims who haven't supported activism for protected cycling infrastructure. Debbie Dorling, for instance, was at the last Space For Cycling ride giving her support.

Well said Bez. Action, not apathy, is what's needed. Better to go and make your protest publicly felt, than sit around anonymously moaning about thing in the internet.

It's absolutely the right time.. The roads are becoming a bit of a war zone at the moment if the number of cycling deaths is anything to go by..

A polite shuffling about of disgruntled prats on bikes next month will be as shallow and ineffective as a ****ing sit down protest picnic in the park..
A line can be drawn here and this will be a powerful gesture, especially if people of kryton's mindset can get involved.. Enough is enough

A polite shuffling about of disgruntled prats on bikes next month will be as shallow and ineffective as a [s]**** sit down protest picnic in the park..[/s] Critical Mass ride

I would be honoured if five cyclists turned out to protest about my untimely death on the road, let alone hundreds.

I live just down the road,an never use that roundabout,I use the flyover,so many cyclist killed in last two weeks weird !

Hundreds? There were about 5000 of us last time. I hope they get good numbers tonight.

I'll be there, just up the road from me...

Bez - Member

Hundreds? There were about 5000 of us last time.

Ok. 😕

I'd just like to go on the record as saying if I'm ever killed on the road through the fault of rotten highway engineering, rotten driver training or rotten law enforcement, then if no-one protests to try to prevent the same happening to others then I shall come back and haunt the lot of you. And if my family were to look back on a lack of protest and say "I'm glad no-one made a fuss for others' benefit" I'll be back to haunt them as well.

So very well said Bez, if only i lived closer i would be there.

CRITICAL MASS TYPE RIDE IS WHATS REQUIRED,AS SOMEBODY SAID ABOVE.LOTS OF MEDIA ATTENTION AND HOPEFULLY DELAYS FOR ROAD USERS,TO SHOW THEM WE HAVE SOLIDARITY AGAINST THE NEEDLESS DEATHS ABD INJURUIES MOTORISTS CAUSE, ALONG WITH CRAP ROAD DESIGNS.

If this happens to me, please feel free to be ****ing furious and to protest en-masse. Thanks

Have a think about how to do this and do it in a few weeks time when a mourning period has passed.

If you leave too long, someone else will have been killed and you'll have to start the mourning period again.

I'm very much on the side of being vocal about this. I think Critical Mass is counterproductive, in no small part because it's not a protest about anything specific (or at least that's how it's regarded externally) and just seen as the usual stereotypes trying to annoy other road users.

A big ride for this would get media attention and would have a very specific target which people could understand. We are getting closer to critical mass (ironically given my comments above) where many if not most people now know someone that cycles be it for commuting or leisure.

Oh, and this -> http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2013/09/26/nazan-fennell-me-you-and-everyones-future/

If I was in the area I'd go to this.

Hope it goes well.

[quote=clubber ]I'm very much on the side of being vocal about this. I think Critical Mass is counterproductive, in no small part because it's not a protest about anything specific (or at least that's how it's regarded externally) and just seen as the usual stereotypes trying to annoy other road users.
A big ride for this would get media attention and would have a very specific target which people could understand. We are getting closer to critical mass (ironically given my comments above) where many if not most people now know someone that cycles be it for commuting or leisure.
All of that.

Just about to head over to Bow. Come along if you can make it; more numbers means a greater voice. I'll be on a silver/blue Trek 7300 ss ratbike with carbon fork if anyone wants to say hi/chat.

Can we have a report from anyone who manages to get there please?

Unfortunately I'm bikeless tonight. Would love to see some real change in cycle planning in London Borris be bold make London a motor vehicle free city

The real benefit would be in lives saved from pollution

FWIW, I didn't say don't do it - I'd join in also. Just not within a few hours of that poor young ladies death.

Cycling issues won't go away in a few days, nor will they be fixed in a few days either.

But there you go, that's just my opinion.

Has everyone joined CTC and written to their MP? More numbers means a greater voice.

via @London_Cycling
[img] [/img]

Seeing that picture has put a lump in my throat _ RIP to all who have fallen.

Just heard you all on LBC radio, good to here the media being positive....

Used to live there for many years
Became worse for riding around/on/off the round a bout after they put in the raised curbs.
If the vehicles get to close you cannot escape and simply have no where to go.

Would be best if the bikes go onto the paved areas outside of the round a bout
rather than use the actual roads.

On another note make these larger aggregate type lorries exempt for driving certain times
Like they used to do many years back.

I'd just like to go on the record as saying if I'm ever killed on the road through the fault of rotten highway engineering, rotten driver training or rotten law enforcement, then if no-one protests to try to prevent the same happening to others then I shall come back and haunt the lot of you.

That has always been my sentiment - word for word, great stuff. I was driving down the A12 at 9:15 this morning and saw all the queues and wondered if it was another dead cyclist. its quite unbelievable why Boris has not dealt with this junction - its just a load of concrete - not some Listed or historic space that no-one wants re-arranged. I like Boris but don't understand this.

Having no idea what this was about, I just watched the following Youtube clip

Seems like [b]all[/b] categories of road users are just ignoring the signals?

Look carefully Colin - lights on left are for cycles. Lights on right (and hidden behind bikes ones) are for vehicles.

Borris ditched ken's cycle superhighway plan that would've meant a genuine segregated cycle network instead he had some bits of road painted blue. He then claimed kens bike scheme as his own and handed Barclay's the most amazing advertising deal London's ever seen

He has closed down pollution monitoring stations and covered up smog alerts as well as axed the western congestion extension and ditched the supper polluting car tax ken also proposed

His rep as a champion of cycling is based on his canny PR stunts rather than his actions

[quote=matt_outandabout ]Look carefully Colin - lights on left are for cycles. Lights on right (and hidden behind bikes ones) are for vehicles.
There's one cyclist on the pavement early on and another goes through the "cyclists" red light later on. Of course, you've then got cars and vans trying to "beat" the lights too and filling up the ASL 🙄

wish I'd known about this before I got home, I would have definitely gone.
I wonder how many deaths caused by tipper trucks and similarly sized lorries would not have happened if those large HGVs were banned from being on city roads during peak commuting hours.

Ah yes, the ASL, just more room to sneak further up as 10' means you get to the office earlier...

"There's one cyclist on the pavement early on"

That seems very much like the wisest way to deal with the deadliest piece of cycling infrastructure in the country.

Any coverage from last night?

Awful news - sympathies to all the families involved. And well done to those on the vigil.

Not being a city boy, I'm glAd I haven't come across that system at Bow. Hows it meant to work? If a cyclist has a green light does he/she still have to stop just a few meters up the road at the roundabout entrance proper? Or can they just go onto the roundabout safely?

Whitechapel last night:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942 ]And so it goes on[/url]

🙁

I've ridden road bikes for 25 years and have never crashed and or had any real altercation with a car past a mutual '**** off'. Why are all these people getting squished? Is it the popularity of cycling just putting more people on the road for the texting drivers to hit or is it that the new post Olympic cycling converts are inexperienced?

The views from the bus driver make interesting reading further down that report. He acknowledges that in 12t of bus it doesnt matter what speed you hit some one their going not going to come out of it well.
There is also an earlier stat that london buses kill or seriously injure 1.03 people a day over the last 5 years. The bus companies say they cant find the figures but a foi request managed to get them!
It really is getting awful on the roads as the light has changed people seem in more of a rush and give you even less space on the roads. Not just in london. The worst drivers i encounter are in watford. 3 times i had to take manuovers last night. Or is this recent spate of deaths just making me ride more defensively?
BTW i'm not saying it was the bus drivers fault on the last one.

I've ridden road bikes for 25 years and have never crashed and or had any real altercation with a car past a mutual '**** off'. Why are all these people getting squished? Is it the popularity of cycling just putting more people on the road for the texting drivers to hit or is it that the new post Olympic cycling converts are inexperienced?

a friend has been hit 4 times, and bikes been written off 3 times, he had been cycling 30 odd years

JCL - Member
I've ridden road bikes for 25 years and have never crashed and or had any real altercation with a car past a mutual '**** off'. Why are all these people getting squished? Is it the popularity of cycling just putting more people on the road for the texting drivers to hit or is it that the new post Olympic cycling converts are inexperienced?

I think it's all of that. IIRC, the number of cyclists on London's streets has doubled in a decade and bikes make up almost a quarter of all inner London traffic.

There seems to be a wide range of cyclist from the stereotypical psycho courier to clueless newbies who seem to think it's like bumbling through Hyde Park when negotiating Mile End Road. In theory, there's a billion quid being spent on proper segregated routes etc but I think the earliest of these is a couple of years away at least.

CoLC & TFL are now making it compulsory for any firm that works for or on behalf of them to have all HGVs fitted with an approved 'side-scan' system to try & prevent the most common cause of serious injury/death although it seems like buses are excluded from this requirement.

Walking around the city and seeing commute vids (such as NJEE's recent one) I am genuinely surprised there aren't more incidents. Hopefully, protests like last night's will all concerned parties take a bit more care on the streets.

I went along to Bow last night; was a very small group of perhaps 20-30 people, and it didn't go on for very long (finished just after 7). Was nice to see a few folk out paying respects though.

I can't believe any cyclist would want to go anywhere near that junction. It's practically a motorway interchange. The sheer volume of motor traffic is huge. Utterly terrifying.

Thing is, there are actually possible alternatives; there are two footbridges between the Bow interchange and Hackney Wick. These would link Old Ford and Victoria Park with Fish Island, the Greenway and the Olympic Park. Both are quite narrow so probably not suitable for high numbers of cyclists. I'm sure they could be upgraded though. What with all the money spent on the Olympics, I'm amazed such a project wasn't considered, as this could really help give cyclists a safer alternative route. The A11/A118 is a major bottleneck, always has been. With today's tragic death, that's now 3 in 2 weeks on the same stretch of road. The 'cycle superhighway' much heralded by the mayor. Well, I hope Barclays have got what they wanted from the cheap advertising deal.

From CM facebook page

I'm just back from LCC's protest/remembrance ride around Bow roundabout. There were so many cyclists present that we filled the whole roundabout. I know BBC TV and LBC radio were also there, along with a fair police presence.

Unfortunately, the behaviour of *some* drivers was far below standard. All stopped for the police, but there was a lot of honking during the 1 minute silence and one driver gave me the quote of the night as he was speaking (shouting) at a uniformed police officer to attempt to convince the officer to let him through:

"[b]I understand that [someone died], but these lot don't even pay road tax![/b]"

Who/what is CM? I got there quite late, and missed the 'occupation' of the roundabout.

That quote from the driver just sums up the selfishness of sadly the majority of drivers in London. They really believe they have the 'right' above all others to do as they please, and seldom consider the consequences of their actions.

But while the car manufacturing and oil production lobbies continue to enjoy so much influence on government policy, we'll see very little change. A change of thinking must happen on a big scale, not just painting some bits of road blue.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass_(cycling) ]critical mass[/url]

CS2 does seem like a bit of a deathtrap. FWIW I find CS7 fine - here's the video Nobby refers to - starting in leafy Surrey and riding into the City. Covers the whole of CS7 from about 2ish minutes I think.

Shame we still have so many naive car drivers, but nothing you do will change that.

Why are all these people getting squished? Is it the popularity of cycling just putting more people on the road for the texting drivers to hit or is it that the new post Olympic cycling converts are inexperienced?

I think it's definitely the latter - a lot of people ride really really badly, particularly women (not being sexist in any way, indeed a disproportionate number of KSI cyclists are women), who are often far too defensive and seem to lack any forethought whatsoever. Last week I watched one ride between two lanes of traffic, then when the lights changed she didn't like being between the moving vehicles, so just stopped dead in the middle of the road to let the traffic clear. Asking for trouble. Not to mention undertaking LH turning vehicles.

a lot of people ride really really badly, particularly women

Can you actually prove this? It's just that from my own experience, I have a totally opposite opinion.

not being sexist in any way

Really? 🙄

And here we are again, attacking/finding fault with particular groups. And instead ignoring the real issue, which is that there are far too many cars on London's roads, using infrastructure that in the main, was not originally designed for large volume motor vehicle traffic. Ignoring that fact won't make it go away.

And instead ignoring the real issue, which is that there are far too many cars on London's roads, using infrastructure that in the main, was not originally designed for large volume motor vehicle traffic. Ignoring that fact won't make it go away.

Who's ignoring it? You're of course right, it's common sense - ideally the two user groups shouldn't come into contact. But it is what it is, and without bulldozing large chunks of London you're not going to change it. With more investment (as we're promised) you could use the space more intelligently, and do more than a bit of blue paint, which in the case of CS2 perhaps lulls users into a false sense of security.

Can you actually prove this? It's just that from my own experience, I have a totally opposite opinion.

Good for you. No I can't prove it conclusively, but there's a lot of stuff around to support it, first thing on Google [url= http://www.rudi.net/node/16395 ]here[/url], or [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-most-accidents ]here[/url], or [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm ]here[/url]. I think the fundamental issue is an over cautiousness - not wanting to be an inconvenience they are far more likely to tuck themselves into the kerb and get squashed. I've also never consciously seen a woman screaming obscenities at drivers or other riders, seen plenty of men doing it mind, in the round they're more likely to be assertive/aggressive.

May we have your evidence to the contrary?

That quote from the driver just sums up the selfishness of sadly the majority of drivers in London.

I don't agree that it's the majority, it's that those are the ones you notice and remember so that's what it feels like - you don't remember the 100s of drivers who don't pass too close, cut you up or shout abuse, but you remember every single one that does so it feels like there's more of them than there really are as a proportion of the whole.

It's the same thinking that leads to comments that "all / most cyclists" run red lights, ride on the pavement etc.. They don't, but you only notice the ones that do, especially if it's confirming a view you already hold.

Spot on.

edlong - Member
I don't agree that it's the majority,

So, Njee20, you claimed that:

a lot of people ride really really badly, particularly women

Yet the very articles you linked to state:

Women cyclists are far more likely to be killed by a lorry [b]because, unlike men, they tend to obey red lights and wait at junctions[/b] in the driver’s blind spot, according to a study.

Women may be over-represented in (collisions with goods vehicles) because t[b]hey are less likely than men to disobey red lights[/b].

So, far from riding 'really badly', women are actually more likely to obey the rules of the road. So you're basically saying women are poor cyclists because they obey the rules of the road?

See, I interpret that information as road junctions being poorly designed, as well as trucks having poor all round visibility, rather than female cyclists being at fault. A conclusion I have come to by actually studying the facts, and thinking carefully about the issues, rather than laying the blame at the feet of the victims.

I also considered other factors, such as the type of bicycles that many women tend to ride, which don't lend themselves to the quick acceleration out of danger (we could also talk about men perhaps being on average stronger and quicker at accelerating), and the naturally greater levels of aggression in men, as mentioned in that report.

May we have your evidence to the contrary?

30+ years of cycling in London, cycling pretty much every day in London over the last 25 years at least, being a cycle courier for a period, knowing lots of women who cycle (of all cyclists I know, it's the men who have had the greater number of accidents by far), working in bike shops (higher proportion of female customers inquired about safety equipment such as helmets, lights, hi-viz etc), and the shocking statistic that a far higher proportion of deaths caused by traffic collisions are in fact male. Most of the people I see riding without lights at night are male. Most of the accidents/near misses i've seen have involved male cyclists. Just about all the incidents I've had involving stupid/ignorant/dangerous behaviour by other cyclists have involved blokes.

So after all that, you seem to be suggesting that women don't ride 'agressively' enough. Do you not think that's an issue that's related to the design and layout of roads, design of trucks etc, rather than women being at fault?

Theres two seperate issues here.

1. To ride safely on the roads AS THEY ARE DESIGNED AT THE MOMENT, you need to be assertive and adpot vehicular cycling methods. Its not enough to simply not put yourself in danger, [i] you have to actively prevent others from putting you in danger too[/i]. This is not only very difficult (I've been doing it for 20 years, no accidents yet, but i still find it very difficult), but its actually not possible for many people. My mums in her 60's, negotiating 3 lane roundabouts is not possible for her.

2. The roads in cities are no longer fit for purpose, the fact that number (1.) is necessaary is a symptom of this. John Franklin, the author of Cyclecraft, was actually aware of this, and pointed out that the above was not a recipie for creating a safe cycling environment just a way of dealing with the crap situation. The roads need redesigning, and where necessary this includes full segregation of cyclists and heavy traffic.

Privately advise 1 to friends and family.

Publicly advise 2 to the government and councils.

If you make the mistake of advising 1 publicy, it becomes victim blaming. This happens all the time whenever people comment on an accident, somehow blaming cyclists for not preventing the mistakes of others.

Yet the very articles you linked to state:

Yes, fair comment, my choice of words was poor. I meant badly in the context of "likely to get yourself killed", as opposed to "not in keeping with the law". You can ride (or drive) badly whilst still being complete lawful.

So having slated me for my use of anecdotal evidence, you have nothing but that?

As I said, I agree that the primary cause is often poor design of junctions/vehicles, but again, that's what we're stuck with. Whilst I don't 'place blame' on the victims there's a duty of care on both parties.

So having slated me for my use of anecdotal evidence

No; I've 'slated' you for your unconstructive sexist comments.

We should be discussing how to improve matters for all road users, not arguing over which group is worse than another. Because by doing that, we just end up being bogged down in unhelpful arguments, rather than addressing the real issues.

I answered a very valid question posed by JCL about why folks are getting squished with my opinions, a part of which is that certain user groups are more vulnerable, for reasons I outlined. My comments were constructive in the context of this, I agree that as a standalone statement they would have been less so, but ignoring the context is a little pointless, even if it suits. I apologise that you felt my remarks were sexist, but I provided evidence that suggests there is some truth in it additional to my anecdotal experiences, which I felt gave more weight to my reply to JCL's question.

Anyway, I'm growing weary of this. I don't need to justify myself to you, I don't like the persona you choose to adopt on here. You are now perpetuating discussion that truly is far removed from the original point, and we're both detracting from the matter at hand.

I felt I was (justifiably) challenging your views. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do. I think this part of the discussion is done, and am happy to leave it there and move on. No hard feelings.

Stayed at a friend's place on the isle of Dogs last night, so commuted in to the RCJ. Used CS3 and then up past Monument and St Pauls. Here are some observations:

*CS3 along Narrow Street then Cable Street is an excellent route, although it has been there long before Boris had it painted blue. Safe and quick, keeps you away from the Highway and Commercial Road, both very dangerous arterial routes.

*Surprisingly few cyclists use bells to alert other cyclists as to their intentions, or to warn pedestrians.

*Tower Hill is ****ing dangerous, with several arterials converging to a pinch point. The Bus lane entrance at Great Tower Street is inexplicably closed to cyclists.

*About 1 in 6-8 vehicles is a large construction work type truck.

*Addison Lee vehicles appear to be driven by morons.

*Black Cab drivers are surprisingly reasonable towards other road users. Especially if they have passengers on board.

*Every ASL and yellow-hatched box junction had motor vehicles in them when traffic was stationary.

*Cycles are by some margin the fastest vehicles on the road during rush hour.

*Quite a few on-road 'cycle lanes' seem to peter out after a short distance. Many vehicles drive in what lanes there are.

*St Pauls looks amazing in the morning sun.

*Ludgate Hill is another pinch-point, not helped one bit by current road works.

*The majority of RLJers I saw were motorists.

*Many motorists don't indicate when turning left. Neither, for that matter, do most cyclists.

*None of the cyclists I saw were wearing headphones, texting/using 'phones, or otherwise distracted. At least a dozen motorists I saw were using 'phones.

*A 42/16t SS ratio, whilst offering a reasonable 15-17mph cruising speed, is a little too high in very slow traffic, or to offer good acceleration. A 40 or 38t is better suited for such conditions.

*Some motorists won't see you even though you are wearing a hi-vis vest, and there's bright sunlight. These motorists may look quite perplexed when you suggest they 'get a ****ing eye test'.

But above all else:

*Cycling is by far the best way to get around town.

Just for info my missus works for a large aggregates and concrete company that are supplying to crossrail and several other projects in London. Her company take the issue of mingling with cyclists extremely seriously. The amount of sensors and cameras on the vehicles now is crazy, too much for one person to monitor. There's some development work on light curtains and warning zones around aggregates vehicles in development now. Her company are also looking at when they can deliver out of hours and even how they can plan routes with the minimum number of left hand turns in built up areas.

Good to hear at least one company is starting to take these issues seriously, Yossarian.

That doesn't hide the fact muck shifter/tipper drivers are the dumbest of the dumb!

I didnt really comprehend the actual number of cyclists on the road on London till I watched that video njee posted, I'm lucky if I see two in five miles in Oldham!