[Closed] Proper softshell for mountain biking

To be honest I’m a bit belligerent/evangelical (aka right) about the whole softshell thing

Given that you're right why do you need suggestions? Surely in your mind you have the perfect solution already?

🤦

This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected

Given that you’re right why do you need suggestions? Surely in your mind you have the perfect solution already?

Yes, it was the now discontinued Gore Phantom. Also, I apologise for not pointing out the sarcasm so that you didn't miss it.

This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected

Given that the original phantom fulfilled these criteria it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

I've scoured the Internet and can't find a replacement, I'm interested to know if anybody else has.

Who wears jackets with nothing underneath? Really?

The original Phantom was labelled N2S (Next to Skin). They stopped making them about 12 years ago (maybe more).

The later Phantoms really are a jacket and I find them a bit baggy. I do have one but rarely wear it.

I can't offer any suggestions though. I always wear a baselayer, even under a summer jersey.

you want the jacket chips is wearing in his piece on the ripley. it’s not made anymore, either.

but wind proof soft shell jersey, 7mesh do a full wind stopper and hybrid jerseys that may fit the bill. more of a road fit, but fit they will.

decathlon also have soft shell hybrid jackets that could be worth trying on if there is a store close by.

edit: zip off arms, this always makes me think of pear izumi. they may have something suitable

Rab vapour rise ridge line:
https://rab.equipment/uk/vr-ridgeline-jacket

Roll the sleeves up instead of removing them?

It sounds like you really want a Buffalo jacket...

The later Phantoms really are a jacket and I find them a bit baggy. I do have one but rarely wear it.

+1

Mine N2S ended up as my workshop top, but it died late last year. The Mk2 I wear occasionally, but it's not warm enough nor wind proof enough for a long sleeve jacket.

I do still have the N2S short-sleeve version, perfect for days where short-sleeves are the answer but you want to keep out the wind. Threadbare is an understatement though.

And to answer the originally ask, nope, not found anything that gets close.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll take a look at them.

The reason for wearing without a base layer is that sweat is much more effectively removed by a true softshell like Buffalo or montane smocks or the original phantom. A base layer actually stops them working as well. The things marketed as softshells these days do need a base layer as they are scratchy next to the skin but are really part of the layering system school of thinking rather than true softshells.

I'd love a biking Buffalo or equivalent from montane but I run hot and I can't wear my lighter weight Buffalo for mountain biking when temps are above freezing. Works fine for my winter commute though.

The Marmot Driclime stuff is worth a look too.

Montane, Buffalo, Patagonia, Trax and Arcteryx are all making these kinds of products

From the article you linked to in your OP. Nothing on their websites?

I commute in summer with a phantom (might be a II, no sure) and wear it bare below, it's the one that has zip off sleeves, and it's like a soft layer inside.

Only in summer though.

Have found this on the gore site, has anybody used one?

https://www.gorewear.com/uk/en-uk/c5-gore-windstopper-zip-off-jersey-100222.html?dwvar_100222_color=0N99

Paramo Velez jacket/smock (sleeves don't zip off but more than enough pit zip to negate the need).

If you run 'hot' then the Quito would be the one to use. The Quito I know is comfy next to skin, Velez should be but I've not tried it.

OP - out of interest, does Polartech Alpha fall into the 'meant to be used with a base' camp for you? Expect it does/is, easier to sell that concept than the next-to-skin thing.

I always found Buffalo / Montane lacking in that n-t-s format if they didn't fit really well but then again I don't really find overheating an issue.

FWIW a few places like Uniqlo and Decathlon make good approximations of light buffalo style linings in their jackets. OH has one with a windproof outer, was ~£30 in Uniqlo. Perhaps not the same functionally in the wet as a Buffalo but I've also found the Decathlon Forclaz version of Primaloft gilets to be excellent so I wouldn't assume anything.

The reason for wearing without a base layer is that sweat is much more effectively removed by a true softshell like Buffalo or montane smocks or the original phantom. A base layer actually stops them working as well. The things marketed as softshells these days do need a base layer as they are scratchy next to the skin but are really part of the layering system school of thinking rather than true softshells.

I think your understanding of the breadth of what is a 'softshell' is quite narrow.
I also think you know what you want - just go find it.

What's the point in it being a zip open jacket if you're not going to wear anything under it? Surely a midlayer style fleecy thing like a Rab Nexus makes more sense.

How is this different to a Perfetto or Stolen Goat Orkaan?

My Orkaan short sleeve can definitely be worn next to skin, not sure if the long sleeve is the same cut.

I got an ion bike scrub amp soft shell. Soo comfy, multi stretch, good pockets and shower proof

What’s the point in it being a zip open jacket if you’re not going to wear anything under it? Surely a midlayer style fleecy thing like a Rab Nexus makes more sense.

IME softshells can be quite warm, vent works to dump some heat, plenty roadies do the same. I assume the OP is looking for something windproof, pretty sure the Rab isn't.

Great thread.

I look forward to learning more about how I've been doing softshells wrong all these years. because I don't have the same obscure, out-of-production garment as the OP.

Funny enough I shared this old pic of me wearing a softshell without a base layer yesterday...

Almost certainly not what the OP wants.

I’m not sure any next-to-skin softshell works as well as a Brynje base layer under a windproof with plenty of vents. Both look equally stupid when you get warm and start having to expose yourself. And I’ve spent years of my life in Buffalo shirts (and also worn Paramo next to the skin after a sunburn emergency).

Pile/Pertex clothing like Buffalo and Montane pre-date the term "softshell". You may need to rethink your definition of softshell.

Could you send your old favourite to those nice folk at Jurassic Park? They could take a DNA sample and clone it for you

😜

That photo reminds me I've got a lovely soft shell jacket that I used as a one-layer system many years ago as I have a similar photo. Waterproof, soft inside, fitted cut. No you can't have it (ok maybe you cna but it's a small or medium and black).

Made by Protective, and bought from EBC. I think they were a bit of a CX brand.

“...if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell. Me and Andy Kirkpatrick are cut from the same cloth on this one.”

If you read that article properly, rather than let your own bias misinterpret it, you’ll find that the cloth he is cut from doesn’t mind being over a base layer.

Those evangelists don't half waffle on a bit.

Now the main zip has torn out of the front, the face fabric is almost see through and it smells like I died in it a long time ago.

Could you send your old favourite to those nice folk at Jurassic Park? They could take a DNA sample and clone it for you

Sounds like they might end up cloning OP by accident?

Sorry I don't have much in the way of useful suggestions. I have a RAB Vapor Rise (so-called, ha!) softshell which I would be happy to wear next to my skin, although I haven't done it in anger. I've found it good for me for MTB but sadly it hasn't stood up so well to a year of gritty backpack use. Because I like it so well for walking and camping I've retired it from MTB duties before I kill it prematurely!

I thought i knew what a softshell was.

I even thought i owned two (Madison and Berghaus).

But now i realise I was wrong.

The word "softshell" is useless. It just has too broad a definition. I think my first was a Mountain Equipment Pertex/Microfleece jacket. I still have it actually, zip-off sleeves and all. It would be perfect for the OP but it was only in production for a couple of years.

if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell

see, to me, this level of closed mindedness just excludes so much decent clothing as to be seriously blinkered. You could get exactly the same effect with a light weight pile beneath a pertex shell, that they are two pieces of clothing and not joined together is irrelevant. In fact with a separate wicking layer you can very the effect (of wicking) to suit the conditions...heresy!

The gore stuff is great and no need to try it on first for me anyway I must be their template for a L
It's always the zip or cuffs that would go first but I tend to wear them with a base layer or t shirt if just out walking
Amazon occasionally gives great bargains but a lottery due to the sizing sometimes £50 of difference between a large and a small no idea how that works

Andy Kirkpatrick knows his stuff through experience but when I want advice I go straight to this guy

There are two items that'll work great for you in the next to skin category

micro pile lined tops - Rab VR, Marmot Driclime. I have a couple of Rab VR tops, get the lite version or it'll be too hot. They're designed to be wind resistant, not wind proof, so are very breathable

alpha tops - OK next to skin. Something like raw alpha with a windshirt, or a top designed around alpha. there are different weights and they're combined with different outers depending on usage

I've been searching for the same thing as you for years, not found it yet and not sure the perfect thing exists from bike brands. In climbing/ mountaineering world I'm amazed by a Rab Alpha Direct jacket that is close to what you're after in terms of being comfortable against skin and great across a range of temperatures, it's so soft and wicks exceptionally...but it's not a bike cut and has a hood. Also a big fan of Mountain Equipment Exolite non-membrane soft-shell for warmer conditions but again its not a bike cut, likewise Rab's Vapourise stretch is very close to ideal and could work.

The closest I've seen in mtb world (not counting skin tight roadie cuts) is the Rapha Brevet Insulated Jacket with Polartec Alpha, or a very similar Alpha jacket from 'Pedalled', 7Mesh also do one that could be mighty close. These have super lightweight face fabrics though to breathe well so only really suitable if your concept of Mtb is tending towards gravel as it will shred in a fall or could easily tear on branches - plus, Polartec Alpha is great if hovering around freezing. Above 5Degs it may be too warm.

see, to me, this level of closed mindedness just excludes so much decent clothing as to be seriously blinkered. You could get exactly the same effect with a light weight pile beneath a pertex shell, that they are two pieces of clothing and not joined together is irrelevant. In fact with a separate wicking layer you can very the effect (of wicking) to suit the conditions…heresy!

As a Montane/Rab/Buffalo user for almost 30 years I can assure you that it doesn't work as well. This is what I have been experimenting with for the last few years on the bike out of desperation and have come to the conclusion that to work properly the wicking pile/microfleece needs to be attached to the pertex style shell for full effect.

“…if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell. Me and Andy Kirkpatrick are cut from the same cloth on this one.”

If you read that article properly, rather than let your own bias misinterpret it, you’ll find that the cloth he is cut from doesn’t mind being over a base layer.

I have worn a base layer under mine on occasion (very cold dry environment) but, and this is crucial, you don't need to for it to be comfortable and it is more effective at keeping you dry in a damp environment without. So I would say that I did read the article properly and you missed the entire point.

Thanks for all of the suggestions of Polartec Alpha or specific models from manufacturers to look at, I will have a browse over the weekend. I still find it strange that a technology ideally suited to high exertion activity has been adopted by almost every aspect of the outdoor community except mountain biking.

I think your problem is that you're in a minority, what you're describing as working for you doesn't work for me. I can wear my buffalo shirt when walking for four or five months of the year but for mountain biking it's generally too warm. In fact in 20+ years this is the first time I've worn it on the bike, I've worn it three times in the last month when temps have been around freezing and it's been wet. I now have a system of layers that works really well with a bit of tweaking, for all other conditions. I think a single layer isn't flexible enough for most people. I had an Endura convert jacket that seemed like a good idea but was too compromised. At the end of the day manufacturers can't cater to everybodys whims.

One issue for Polartec Alpha that's not immediately obvious is that the face fabric's tend to be so light that it's very difficult to incorporate decent pockets into the garment, I tend to carry tools/ tube pump in a back pocket which would be too much for flimsy Alpha Face fabric - though there are obviously other carrying solutions. The other big issue being that Polartec Alpha is ridiculously expensive, in fact Rab seem to have dropped Alpha Direct and do their own version this year maybe for that reason. It also doesn't have so great shelf appeal as it appears too light to offer warmth/ protection...but if you know what you want from a garment as per that Kirkpatrick article, you'll understand that the concept works well.

The 7Mesh Freeflow does seem to have a slightly tougher face fabric, Rapha seems perennially out of stock, Pedalled ships from Italy with all associated BWord nonsense and fit could be a gamble...

So "proper softshell" is actually fleece-backed pertex?

Wore a pertex jacket (used to be my only MTB jacket for years) the other week, it was awful compared to modern (not)softshell jackets - and not any more water-repellent.

Castelli Perfetto is probably closest to the original Gore Phanton, both windstopper fabric, both close fit.

Windstopper though is closer to a hard-shell than the concepts mentioned above of Alpha, Vapourise, Buffalo. It has its place for sure but it'll never breathe to the same extent as other more active fabrics, which is why in mountaineering world they've mostly consigned full windstopper type jackets to dog walking duties. Its terribly subjective though, maybe if one has the sweat rate of a Prince Andrew then a layer of porous cling film may work, but if you like to get your pace on in cold conditions and sweat loads then more comfortable alternatives are available...

Polartec Alpha is ridiculously expensive, in fact Rab seem to have dropped Alpha Direct and do their own version this year

What jacket is that @endoverend?

"I have worn a base layer under mine on occasion (very cold dry environment) but, and this is crucial, you don’t need to for it to be comfortable and it is more effective at keeping you dry in a damp environment without. So I would say that I did read the article properly and you missed the entire point."

No, you're missing the point. I got a Buffalo S6 in 1994 and it got used for everything outdoorsy (when it wasn't too warm) and I never wore a base layer until its latter days as daily workwear. Night exercises, skiing, caving, MTBing, walking, canoeing etc. Also commuting and later on wearing it every day for work for most of the year. Literally wore it out, zip pulls broken, velcro falling off, frayed edges, various rips. Retired it in 2013, so it's now tucked into a cubbyhole in my car boot, along with the hood and mitts, for emergencies. Had some S6 trousers too. And a belay jacket. And I've never owned a conventional waterproof bar a tiny emergency cycling one. And yes, it works best without a base layer.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that there aren't better solutions. Have you tried a (hideous) Brynje mesh base layer under a windproof or uninsulated softshell? It's even better unless it's super cold. When it's warmer I use a conventional base layer so I can take off the windproof without looking like I should be at a bondage night.

Although Alpha Direct looks like a better version of Buffalo I'm sure it's too warm for much MTBing use and definitely not tough enough.

@chakaping - "pertex" is a brand name, not a product. There are LOADS of different variations that do different things - quantum, microlight, endurance etc

Some are waterproof, some are windproof, some are resistant etc

Surely even the word 'softshell' is indicative of the fact it's meant to be worn as an outer layer, ie over something? Where does one go to find the true path to softshell enlightenment?

BTW my Patagonian Dirt Roamer jacket is called a softshell, but I wouldn't really call it one. 🙂

It’s weird, something that was designed 30 years ago to move people out of rigid thinking about protective clothing has itself over time become its own rigid and inflexible set of rules about what to wear.

What jacket is that

The one I have is literally called the 'Rab Alpha Direct', it's from a few years ago, is amazing, was new at the time but now seems to have disappeared from the UK website (still shows on US site rab alpha direct). Its like a lighter more breathable Buffalo, it's comfortable in an uncannily wide range of conditions and as such is the most useful winter hill jacket have ever had - one caveat though, it's not super warm so tend to throw a down gillet over if static in really bad conditions. There must be some story as to why it's gone so soon, maybe to do with cost or availability of the 'named' fabric, or maybe the Alpha's just disappeared as between seasons... There seems to be a similar styled jacket in the 'Vapour rise summit' which is close but using their own brand VR tech.

Hi I have a castelli perfetto ROS.

I would be happy wearing it next to skin as it has a nice feel inside. It's windproof and is supposely water resistant although I've been lucky enough not to test it on that yet.

It's great on the road bike. I went for bright orange for visability on the road, I think the colour would not survive MTB mud. Its too pricy for me to risk on Brambles!

There is a zip off sleeves version as well.

There are road pockets on the back, I'm sure they would come off with 30 seconds and a sharp pair of sizors.

£240 on wiggle

I've had it on down to 0 with lots of layers and up to 15 with a thin jersey under. So depends on your idea of 3 seasons. I run cold.

I don't know if this is classed as a softshell but it fits most of your criteria or is at least going to do a similar job. Feels ok next to the skin, has some windproofing and is v.breathable.

https://www.endurasport.com/c/MT500-Thermal-L-S-II/p/E3194-Black

I think it's the new version of one I bought several years ago although not 100% certain.  A lot of the time the only extra that one needs is a thin gilet over the top if the temperature is dropping or the rain's picking up a bit.  Gilets are a lot less faff-inducing than mid-layers or jackets given that lack of faffage is possibly your main aim?

Edit: looking closer, it isn't the same as no back pockets.  The 'windchill' jacket here is nearer to a new version of mine - https://www.endurasport.com/c/Windchill-Jacket-II/p/E9161-Rust-Red .  Labelled as a softshell no less - win win!

The point where Andy Kirkpatrick started writing poetry was a Rubicon moment for me. There was no excuse for that.

Anyway, what works for me, but won't work for the OP, is a combination of a DHB Polartec Alpha gilet layered over a Brynje mesh baselayer - Right Said Fred live - and under a soft shell / windproof / waterproof depending on conditions. Or without if it's right for what's going on.

Windstopper is frankly a bit crap when it comes to breathability. It's a PTFE, waterproof membrane without a protective PU smear and with untaped seams. When MHW first used is as an N2S layer called Transition, I used it quite a lot next to skin. On some days it was perfect, on a lot of other days, it simply wasn't. There's a reason no-one does next-to-skin Windstopper any more and it's that mostly it doesn't work that well.

Personally I find Polartec Alpha is great in cool conditions, but is expensive and rare in bike specific versions. Fox Racing does an Alpha bike jacket but it costs north of £200. DHB has an interesting hybrid jacket mixing Alpha with other Polartec fabrics. Buffalo seems to appeal to one-time mountaineers of a certain age who think it's still the 1980s and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way.

It’s weird, something that was designed 30 years ago to move people out of rigid thinking about protective clothing has itself over time become its own rigid and inflexible set of rules about what to wear.

Not really. The term softshell was appropriated by marketing departments and now means something to most people that isn't reflective of what the original use and idea was (see Kirkpatrick article) and everybody gets confused and talks at cross purposes. Just see this thread for examples.

Surely even the word ‘softshell’ is indicative of the fact it’s meant to be worn as an outer layer, ie over something? Where does one go to find the true path to softshell enlightenment?

@grum yep, you wear it over your skin! A good reference to what the original inception of softshell was here.

@chiefgrooveguru I've not tried one of those base layers but could be tempted if it works (I usually ride on my own no where near schools so not concerned by S&M vibe), what windproof do you use it with? The thing I liked about the Phantom was that I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC up hill and down dale only having to adjust the zip or pull the sleeves off when things were at the limits of that range. Literally nothing else that I have found comes close. In Scotland I could put it on and know that I wouldn't need to don or remove layers for an entire day unless the heavens truly opened, I rode into a desert or the next ice age turned up. In the time I had it, riding every week, year round, my waterproof probably got used 2-3 time a year. It was really that good. It was so good that when I was at risk of unemployment a few years ago I considered setting up a company to make a newer version just so that I could have one! But too few people seem to understand the concept for it to be viable. Which is probably why gore stopped making them and the potentiall viable biking-focussed alternatives that people have suggested on here masquerade under names other than softshell because the word no longer means what it used to.

So “proper softshell” is actually fleece-backed pertex?

Wore a pertex jacket (used to be my only MTB jacket for years) the other week, it was awful compared to modern (not)softshell jackets – and not any more water-repellent.

Pile is not the same as fleece, they do different things. A pertex classic or similar jacket over a fleece is not the same, in fact it is usually a sweaty mess. Pertex classic dries fast but isn't very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable. In this situation I think a lightweight gore-tex waterproof jacket (or similar) performs better than pertex because it is breathable rather than fast drying. This is why softshells work best when they are a snug fit touching you all over 🙂 , my biggest gripe with Buffalo is that they use a bin bag as a template so large areas of skin do get sweaty because there is nothing wicking it away.

DHB has an interesting hybrid jacket mixing Alpha with other Polartec fabrics

What's the fit like on the DHB Polartec? I like the idea of the blend of Neoshell/ Alpha but the picture of the garment flat makes it appear incredibly long armed and close fitting/ short on the front like a Pro Cut Rapha or Aero Castelli fit - whereas I'm short of arm with increasing pie retention at waist...needs to get out more. Ronhill tracksters are really good by the way.

Buffalo seems to appeal to one-time mountaineers of a certain age who think it’s still the 1980s and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way.

🤣🤣🙃

"and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way"

I've still got the ones I bought when I was 16. They fit more like tights now! Fortunately for everyone they're only used instead of thermal underwear (rather good at that).

"I’ve not tried one of those base layers but could be tempted if it works (I usually ride on my own no where near schools so not concerned by S&M vibe), what windproof do you use it with? The thing I liked about the Phantom was that I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC up hill and down dale only having to adjust the zip or pull the sleeves off when things were at the limits of that range. Literally nothing else that I have found comes close."

I don't even know how that is possible thermodynamically!!!

I have a Paramo Enduro Windproof - velcro cuffs with wide sleeves so you can roll/push them up if need be, elbow to waist pit zips and a double-ended front zip. It's a pretty heavyweight mountaineering type thing with a massive hood. You probably want something with a less absolutely windproof fabric.

I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC

cycling in 20degs in a Gore N2S! Christ I’d drown in my own sweat!

I'm still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.

"Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable."

The pile and pertex on a Buffalo shirt are not bonded to each other, they just join where they're sewn together at the hems, cuffs and zips. Uncoated pertex breathes very well compared to any waterproofs but if there's a lot of moisture and a temperature gradient you get condensation and wicking instead.

cycling in 20degs in a Gore N2S! Christ I’d drown in my own sweat!

It was quite warm but those days often started out at less than 10degC with the sleeves on and at 20degC I could remove the sleeves and unzip the front more. Yes it was a bit sweatier than a jersey at the hot end but overall I guess my point was that it was very versatile and could deal with a very wide range of conditions without needing to add or remove another garment. Now when I go out in similar conditions I need a shortsleeved base layer, arm warmers, windproof and a gilet to cover all the same bases and I have to constantly stop to swap between them, stash them somewhere, and I still get sweatier and am less comfortable than I was in the Phantom. More faff, less comfort, heavier bigger bag.

“Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable.”

The pile and pertex on a Buffalo shirt are not bonded to each other, they just join where they’re sewn together at the hems, cuffs and zips. Uncoated pertex breathes very well compared to any waterproofs but if there’s a lot of moisture and a temperature gradient you get condensation and wicking instead.

Interesting. My Montane has someting keeping the two in close proximity (peering through the bigger rip anyway), they aren't just loose. Maybe bonding was the wrong word and more in keeping with the original gore N2S approach.

I'd always read that pertex classic was supposed to be breathable but I've never found it to be particularly good on it's own, even compared to heavier gore-tex or eVent membranes, so just assumed that it was marketing spiel.

I’m still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.

Kind of funny given that I think that you are trolling me!

Now when I go out in similar conditions I need a shortsleeved base layer, arm warmers, windproof and a gilet

or a long sleeved base layer (push the sleeves up if you need to) and windproof gillet...you do seemed determined to make life hard for yourself.

or a long sleeved base layer (push the sleeves up if you need to) and windproof gillet…you do seemed determined to make life hard for yourself.

Not really. The ideal thing existed, but Gore stopped making it. Everything since, including your suggestion that I often now resort to, is a compromise in my experience.

This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected

We do appear to be veering towards this. There have been some really helpful comments and suggestions on here so far. The jacket you bought years ago is no longer available so you'll have to either choose between some compromises on your requirements or being unhappy with the choices available today.

There are several of us on here lamenting the demise of the original Montane Krypton. I know how disappointing it is

We do appear to be veering towards this. There have been some really helpful comments and suggestions on here so far.

I guess you missed the bits where I've thanked people for their suggestions that I will go and look at later, many of which look like good options, or where I've asked for more details on alternatives.

@ElShalimo
Full Member
I’m still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.

I agree.

In 20*c I am in shortsleeved baselayer and shorts, sweating like a pig in a butchers, and that is before I have even got to the bottom of the hill.

In 1*c not only are my hands and tootsies struggling to keep warm, I am wearing a decent couple of long sleeve baselayers and windproof top or full waterproof.

“Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable.”

So you are saying that Rab Vapor Rise, Buffalo (all), Montane Krypton & (old) Dyno, Montane extreme, Alpkit Morphosis and Jura, Vaude Croz etc are all really sweaty jackets, much more than a bonded Goretex Windstopper? wow.

Gore have never released breathability for Windstopper - much rumor it is original GoreTex fabric, of super low breathability and low Hydrostatic Head.

I have a Patagonia gore Windstopper fabric jacket of 2005ish vintage. It is my least worn jacket as it is a sweaty bin bag between soft fleecy liner and woven outer. I can wring it out on most days I wear it - so bad it is my gardening jacket.

I think you put too much sway in what Mr Kirkpatrick says, instead of trying a couple of things out for yourself with some newer fabric in baselayer and windproof layer.

I am a huge 'softshell' fan and a huge (more so) layers on and off fan.

For riding in cold I used to love my old Montane Dyno, made of early Pertex ECO, over a baselayer. The most breathable (and not quite windproof because of that) jacket I think I have ever had.

Now I have 'made my own' now - a running nylon Tog24 top with zip off arms and mesh panel down each side, with mesh pocket and zip to rear to open up venting even more. Under I wear a baselayer, and this I swap or double up depending on the weather. It is about as least sweaty yet windproof as I can go - although I want to try an GroundEffect style windproof front/non-windproof back jacket too. All have a back pocket or bar bag on bike I can pop various arms or layers in - I can even remove stuff while riding (although I am crap at being able to put it on while riding...).

As others have said, you seem to be fixated on something that is a) old tech and low performance compared to newer options b) fixated on one solution being better than anything else anyone can suggest and c) drunk too much mr_kirkpatrick cool-aid.

is a compromise in my experience.

sure, but the thing you seem to be fixated on 1. Probably wasn’t a “soft shell” in the proper sense of the garment that Andy Kirkpatrick describes, and 2. Doesn’t exist anymore anyway, and 3. no one makes anything similar

You’re going to have wear different things for different conditions.

As others have said, you seem to be fixated on something that is a) old tech and low performance compared to newer options b) fixated on one solution being better than anything else anyone can suggest and c) drunk too much mr_kirkpatrick cool-aid.

Sorry Mat, but no. It  may be old tech but it worked brilliantly. I've tried as many of the newer options as I can afford (my own favourite walking/cragging top is a Montane Dyno). I only found the Kirkpatrick article last night after many years ruminating on the subject and thought it summed up most of my own thoughts without me needing to write it down.

Gore windstopper is sweaty and nasty. Gore N2S was very different and much lighter weight. As I admitted above my comment about bonding was a bit ott and inaccurate. Pertex in close proximity with microfleece/pile seems to work (but is too hot for me on a bike). Pertex over a fleece doesn't work in the same way in my experience. The closest I have come is a merino baselayer with a pertex shell but it still isn't as good as the N2S fabric.

Probably wasn’t a “soft shell” in the proper sense of the garment that Andy Kirkpatrick describes

How so? It is almost the definition in my book! Single garment, next to skin, no layers, wicking liner, windproof outer, effective moisture removal, weather resistant, wide comfort range, etc.

I read this last night but couldn't summon up the willpower to reply. From now on I am going to evaluate every cyclist I see to consider if they are wearing anything underneath their outer shell.

I read this last night but couldn’t summon up the willpower to reply. From now on I am going to evaluate every cyclist I see to consider if they are wearing anything underneath their outer shell.

You only need concern yourself with those wearing "softshells" 😉

No way I'm reading all that so apologies if I'm repeating. I have a couple of cycle specific fleece backed softshells, generally wear a baselayer but you would not have to. Dont know if they do zip on'off sleeves.

Have a look at 7 mesh and also alpinestars

How so? It is almost the definition in my book!

Because, as the link in your OP describes, and much discussed here, the original concept for a soft shell was pile fibre inner with a pertex outer...Gore N2S was neither of those things. So not by mr Kirkpatricks description is it?

Maybe you’re looking at the wrong material? And really you just need a slightly weightier jersey? Which is after all, what the N2S was in reality

I think someone said SG Orkaan

https://stolengoat.com/product-category/mens/?filter_collection=orkaan

Because, as the link in your OP describes, and much discussed here, the original concept for a soft shell was pile fibre inner with a pertex outer…Gore N2S was neither of those things. So not by mr Kirkpatricks description is it?

I just went back and reread it. It doesn't say that at all and neither did I. I thought that I had been clear that what I consider to be softshell is the theory (single garment, next to skin, no layers, wicking lining, windproof outer, effective moisture removal, weather resistant, wide comfort range) not an item made by a spcecific manufacturer.

It my mind it covers everything from thin and lightweight stretch fabrics (Schoeller?) through the Montane/Buffalo pile/pertex kit all the way to wearing a polar bear inside out. The Gore N2S was more like the Schoeller fabrics than inverted polar bear.

And really you just need a slightly weightier jersey? Which is after all, what the N2S was in reality

Sigh, it really wasn't. I literally have it in my hands now while I try to see if I can repair it one last time and it most definately isn't "like a weightier jersey".

I have an old Ground Effect top of which Matt describes. I think it's a Baked Alaska or equivalent. It's my most worn top. You could probably wear it next 2 skin. I wear a base layer under it, short or long sleeved depending on temperature. It's a really good bit of kit as are the other Ground Effect things I have. Shame they are in New Zealand.

Fair point. I'm actually sitting here wearing Schoeller trousers. The same fabric would work well as a jacket, though it would need to be fairly tight fitting to wick well.

Huh, shows we’re all different I suppose. I thought the N2S was OK for winter wear, waaaay too hot for anything else, and was a sweaty bag to boot.

@igm and whoever else suggested the Orkaan - thanks, it looks closer than anything else i have seen. How do they size up?

[EDIT] - their colour schemes aren't for the faint hearted! I may have to paint everything else black to compensate!

Jesus I started reading that Kirkpatrick article but I'm amazed anyone can get through it. I used to think I was nerdy about outdoor gear. I think for him it's fair enough as it might keep him alive for but bike rides for fun I think you are massively over-thinking this. Each to their own though.

I'm starting to suspect that our faith in "technical" adventure clothing is just another fetish, one that owes more to the logic of consumerism than our desire to be in the great outdoors.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2010/nov/25/outdoor-gear-bad-science-ugly

BTW in that AK article he says 'there is no concrete definition' of a softshell

Orkaan – thanks, it looks closer than anything else i have seen. How do they size up?

I found the chest and waist a bit slacker than expected and the arms a little tighter. 40” chest meant I needed a medium for road riding - large would have been ok off road. The arm warmers are large and I could perhaps go XL.

My ego was massaged

PS I believe it’s made by BioRacer

Jesus I started reading that Kirkpatrick article but I’m amazed anyone can get through it. I used to think I was nerdy about outdoor gear. I think for him it’s fair enough as it might keep him alive for but bike rides for fun I think you are massively over-thinking this. Each to their own though.

Maybe. I guess I had what I considered to be the best bit of kit I've ever used and now have to make do with what I consider to be inferior alternatives. If I had never owned one I probably wouldn't be missing it.

BTW in that AK article he says ‘there is no concrete definition’ of a softshell

Well, no, people will always quibble about the fine details, but somethings would definitely be considered softshell while other wouldn't.