Powering a longer travel 29er.

…and I can’t quite my head round why…

nothing ****s you as hard as old age...

weight isn't your issue - whilst a lighter bike may feel faster, on all but the biggest of climbs it makes no material difference, even for a flyweight like you.

how are you fuelling longer rides? this will likely make more of a difference than any kit you can throw at the problem - as your training seems sensible enough.

As above - are you fuelling the longer rides?

Do you cycle ‘flat out’ or near enough on the majority of your rides?

I opened this thread with an inkling that you might be over thinking this...

I read your post, and I have no doubt whatsoever that you are overthinking it!

Or is it just the nature of big travel 29ers that they’re a bit of a drag to pedal and that EWS racers who sprint around on these things at full gas are redonkulously strong?

Basically... Yes! And then you have the eBike guys, who ride twice as far, on a much heavier bike, barely using the motor assist much of the time... The likes of Nico Vouilloz and Tracey Moseley race the eBike category because it's an even bigger challenge again, and their inherent fitness levels give them a more competitive edge.

and no the answer is not an e-bike. The answer is never an ebike

Except for many people, much of the time... It is!

You might not want to accept that... But as you go longer and longer travel, with bigger and burlier wheels and tyres, eBikes simply make more sense, regardless of your fitness and skill levels.

For reasons you describe, I know so many people who simply stopped enjoying riding their bikes the longer travel and burlier they got, unless it was uplift assisted. So they gravitated towards eBikes to be able to enjoy riding them again... Of course, the antidote to this is to go lighter, less travel, skinnier wheels and tyres. Not a route that most people want to go, but you need to assess where you ride and how you ride it. I've genuinely been amazed at what my 100/120 travel "XC" bike can handle when pushed to. Yes, it's running a dropper post, wide bars, relatively short stem etc. but otherwise is pretty much full XC spec. A "downcountry" bike if you must go by marketing terms, but hey ho... Anyway... It's my most fun bike to ride truth be told, but then again, I wouldn't take it to an uplift day either.

Bottom gear ratios are nigh on identical allowing for wheel size – 30/42 on the Soul, 28/42 on the Rocket – although it’s not the ability to turn over the gear, it’s the ability to KEEP turning over the gear.

You need to drop your gear ratios for sure... Those might have been considered short on a 26" wheeled bike, on a 29er with big heavy tyres it's quite a tall gear. I tried 34/50 when I first got a big travel 29er (similar ratio to 28/42), I couldn't pedal the 34/10 on anything other than a road downhill, and the lowest gear was hard to keep spinning on tech climbs. Dropped to a 32T which was better, but still a bit much on a big travel bike with big tyres (though is ok on XC bike). Then dropped to a 30T with the 50T on the back still, and much more manageable... Hell, my eBike has a 32T chainring with a 50T cog!

Have you had a go on one of the new breed of 120ish travel 29ers with the angles to do the business, but weights coming in around 26-28lb all up at all...? MUCH easier to pedal all day long, and though maybe not quite as quick on the descents, will be as much if not more fun.

I'm no expert, but man, that sounds frustrating.

IME no 1 culprit is wheels. Not just weight, but the build. 2 examples - went from Hunt Enduro-wides to mavic Edeemax on one bike. It was like letting the handbrake off. Amazing. On the other bike I have big relatively heavy 50mm Carbon 29+ rims with hope hubs - but they positively zing along.

Also, WTB tires I love for grip (also have judge and verdict), but they are heavy and draggy as ****. Makes a DHF and DHR combo (my summer tires of choice) feel like 28mm road tires by comparison 🙂

I've found also that shock tune plays a huge part on the rear of a full sus. Can suck the life out of a big ride. get that checked, maybe it needs a service and/or a re-tune. Also, I really don't get on with certain types of rear suspension (Horst link can go do one).

Or, you know, e-bike 😉

A few things probably - it gets harder as you get older, your lowest gear isn’t very low for a 29er, perhaps the position takes a bit of getting used to and maybe you need to just spin more rather than try and winch up.

In the spin / winch thing - if you concentrate on spinning more your aerobic system takes more of the strain. The more you push a slow but hard pedal the more you’re tiring out your leg muscles. I’ve found turbo training has made a huge difference to the cadence I ride at and has made me be able to ride harder for longer.

My gearing is 30t front chainring / 10-51 cassette. I frequently use the lowest few cigs on the cassette so my cadence can stay higher but hit my leg with fatigue a bit less.

I don’t know if your body weight comes into it too much - lighter generally means easier to get uphill but maybe you’re a long way down on outright watts? I’m about 75-76kgs usually and between 230-250 watts ftp over the year depending on injuries etc.

My bike sounds heavier than yours based on the weight you quote - it’s an alloy Sentinel 2022 with Kitsuma Coil shock / lyriks / xm481 rims on Hope rear and Bitex front hubs / Code Rs / exo or grid trail casing tyres / carbon cranks and bars / XT 12 speed. I think it’s about 34lbs - which makes yours sound a bit light?

My thinking on initially reading is summarised pretty much exactly by mboy.

I would *not* like to haul that bike round on big rides out in the peak district. Weight, geometry, lots of saggy suspension etc... the front tyre alone is about 1.3kg.

It might be fun on properly steep/rocky and droppy bits but most of the peak isn't that in reality. There's a lot of up and in-between riding between relatively short sections of relative burliness.

My bike of choice in the peaks for long rides is a Kona Hei Hei Trail DL slackened -2 degree (yes, 100mm frame(!) travel, 120mm fork travel), Arch Mk3 rims, Tyres around 700-800g. sometimes even that feels overbiked/slow.

My first 29er is also a drag to ride. So much that it puts me off leaving the house as it's my only bike and I can't be bothered to pedal the bloody thing a few road miles to the nearest trails. Riding on the road feels like riding through glue.

Wheels and tyres make the biggest difference but when I fit lighter tyres they squirm and burp. To save any meaningful weight from the rims I'd have to shell out for carbon.

I either need a lighter, sprightly trail bike or an e-bike.

The bike fit is significantly different to any other bike I have – steeper seat angle and higher bars

could be this? I find steeper seat angles are great on steep climbs, and going down the seat is down so doesn’t make a difference. Everywhere else, I’m not convinced. Riding my older slacker seat angled bike I’m much more comfortable on flat or rolling terrain, can’t be scientific but also feels like I’m get more power.  Perhaps the new school geometry isn’t for everyone?

Sounds like its just too much bike for your build for all day riding.

If you're that light, then you probably don't need such strong wheels and tough tyres. So I'd look at lighter tyres and rims first of all. And maybe you need to spin on the climbs more and do more strength training along with more eating protein for the downs. Or as a last resort get a lighter bike.

42 on the back of a big 29er sounds way too hard a gear.

A 75 degree SA isn't what I'd call new school geometry. If it's sagging more towards the rear you're probably not in the best seating position. Are you tall?

I'm 74kg or so, and FTP of 280 a couple of months back, should be getting back to that same level by the time my next big trip comes around.

Granted I've not ridden my new bike on a 'proper' climb yet, but it's 17kg/37lbs work pedals, with supergravity casing tyres (on carbon wheels) which are 1300g each.

On the mellow stuff I've ridden it on it really does zip along nicely once the thing is up to speed, slow tech will need a bit more power and anything super steep I'll be in the 30/50t cog winching it up!

My previous bike was 1.5kg lighter overall, with 200g lighter tyres and I had no issues riding that on multiple consecutive fulls days in the peak District/Lakes/Scotland. So long as my fitness was there of course!

For reference, I ride a steel Hello Dave in stock build and despite it climbing really well and generally feels just like a normal bike, it feels like its made of lead compared to my lightweight xc full sus. I just need to accept the slower all-round speed to compensate for the great downhill ability.

depending on tyre choice

All in this. All tyres are a compromise... you've picked ones that make the downs as fun and as risk free as possible. I'm not saying change tyres... who wants tyres they can't trust... I'm saying accept the compromise and the slower climbs.

Oh, and more pies 🥧 [ not really ].

Your answer is in your post - a choice between:
a) E bike
b) Riding F300 again

You need to drop your gear ratios for sure…

But why - what's the mechanical reason? In meters development terms 26"@32/42, 27.5"@30/42 and 29"@28/42 are nigh on identical, and the "system" weight is near as dammit the same throughout. So why does the 29er "need" lower gears?. I do spin out the 28/10 reasonably easily.
Long experience also says that its WAY too easy for me to undergear, and end up breaking traction and spinning out on tough climbs. I'm way more successful if I use a bigger gear, attack harder and carry more momentum, even if I end up grinding it a little more. Going 1x, way back when, and losing a gear or 2 off the bottom only had benefits once I'd adapted

how are you fuelling longer rides?

Certainly the Rocket feels far more calorie heavy than anything else. Up to 3hrs on pretty much anything else, I wouldn't bother eating and I'd maybe get through a mouthful or 2 of water. This Rocket I'll have a bar or a handful of fruit/nut/chocums mix. But again - why? What makes this bike so different that I need a different fueling strategy to anything else. If I went for a (hilly) hike with a 35lb pack on, I'd just stop for a normal lunch (or at the top whichever came first).

Do you cycle ‘flat out’ or near enough on the majority of your rides?

I have no idea. I just ride. Tap the climbs out, smash the descents. Most of the time I feel like I'm having to force the Rocket to keep a reasonable pace (which is part of the issue). On the odd occasions I ride with a group I usually end up near the back at the bottom of a climb and one of the last left riding by the top.

Have you had a go on one of the new breed of 120ish travel 29ers with the angles to do the business

If it was one MTB for everything, maybe. But I've got a very competent 140mm forked hardtail, so it needs to be a good bit bigger to be different. I also don't see that I'd get away with significantly lighter wheels/tyres for where and how I ride, so there would only be a couple of lb in the frame

Also, WTB tires I love for grip but they are heavy and draggy as ****

Agree, which is why the Judge only comes out for special occasions or full winter wet. I've tried a 2.5 DHF on the front in summer, and I'll stick with the Verdict, thank you...! I lose 300g rotating weight sticking the DHR/Rimpact combo on the back, but its just not that good on steep wet offpiste.

I’ve found also that shock tune plays a huge part on the rear of a full sus

I'm pretty happy with how it works - it was serviced not that long ago, and it always been the same issue right from new. I spent quite a while with Cy getting it sorted, as there were some initial problems with the shock I first had.

you might be over thinking this…

Almost certainly. Its what I do. But its been a problem for not far off 3 years now, so I've done a LOT of overthinking.

blahblahblah ebike blahblahblah

I don't care. A. Bicycle. Does. Not. Have. A. Motor.

b) Riding F300 again

I think this is the answer, sort of.

If the only time the bike felt easy to ride was when you were much fitter, it's likely you're not as fit as you think you are - and doing a few unstructured rides a week is probably just about maintaining your current level of fitness.

If you don't know your FTP it might be worth finding a way of measuring it - it's not for everyone but I've seen massive improvements in my fitness thanks to zwift structured training plans.

for me that gearing is far too high, a bottom gear of 32t/51t is ideal for me on a bigger travel bike around the peaks / hebden / west yorkshire style of up and down, i'm far heavier at 85kg circa 20psi tyres but enjoy both ups and down.

used to run a 11-46t with a 34t upfront, it was damn hardwork on the steeper climbs, even on a 27.5 140/130 fs
a 30 upfront massively improved the ride quality for me

A 75 degree SA isn’t what I’d call new school geometry

Yup. I deliberately went for the last Mk2 Rocket in stock rather than a Mk3, as I REALLY didn't want anything steeper. The bike sags equally if I'm stood in attack position, but as always with LLS bikes there's next to no weight on the front wheel when just sat on it, so you get rear sag, but next to no front which pulls the SA back to something more traditional. As I said - getting up steep stuff - amazingly good, so long as I'm fresh.
5'10" on a medium...

Riding my older slacker seat angled bike I’m much more comfortable on flat or rolling terrain, can’t be scientific but also feels like I’m get more power.

Agree with this - especially on rolling tech terrain.

If you’re that light, then you probably don’t need such strong wheels and tough tyres.

Long experience says I do. I'm not known for subtle descending...! This bike started off with Hunt Trailwides on. They lasted a couple of rides before they were ****ed. Tyre wise, I pinch flat the Verdict occasionally which says its about right; when I swapped the DHR/Rimpact combo out a few weeks back, there was a small pile of foam offcuts rattling around in the tyre carcass that had been sliced off the Rimpact, so again that feels like its not OTT.

Part of the problem is that because its such hard work, I don't ride it so much for "just going for a ride" rides. It mostly gets pulled out for Wharny or Win Hill sessions, so I'm never that acclimatised to it. This post was partly sparked by yesterday's ride where I dragged it round a Stanage/Blacka loop. For maybe 10 minutes out a filthy 3hr ride, it was amazing. The rest of it was between "meh" and <<puke>>

Given the weight of my mates Flare Max build, I doubt your Rocket Max is anywhere near 32lb.

I also agree with the tyres comment. Compound and carcass changes make a big difference to how a bike feels. Going from the stock Assegai/DHR with inserts set up to Reserve wheels with Wolfpack tyres knocked 1.25kg off the weight of my Sentinel and transformed it on trail rides. IMO, too many people are over-tyred for the majority of the riding they do.

Given the weight of my mates Flare Max build, I doubt your Rocket Max is anywhere near 32lb

That's one of the reasons I went Rocketmax - it's only fractionally heavier than a Flaremax.

I built it as light as I could afford - Helm Airs, XTR cranks, XX1 cassette, Renthal carbon bars, Selle Italia SLR. On the same scales it's ~1/2lb lighter than my other half's 650b Flare.

It's not the tyres IMO, if you mainly have a DHR on the back.

I've tried enough tyres to tell you that Verdict is not particularly draggy. The tough/high grip Verdict Wet was horrific, by contrast.

Your bike is on the lighter side, if you're happy with the shock & tune then I think gearing is the next place to look. Might let you manage your energy better, so you're fresher when you need a bit of grunt?

A few years ago I was riding a 170mm Specialized alloy enduro around wales, Spain, and Whistler. I found changing from the heavy stock wheels helped but I kept the Maxxis Aggesors DD for their durability and because I can't be arsed to swap tyres about, the gearing I was using was 30t front with a 50t at back and that got me up everything okay.

But why – what’s the mechanical reason?

Power (or work done) by the engine (you) is a multiple of torque and rotational speed... You need to increase one, or the other, or both, in order to go faster or to make it easier...

So you either need to up your FTP substantially, or lower your gearing... Or buy an ebike... Or stop complaining that it's too hard! The choice is yours...

We moved on from range limiting 10-42 cassettes on MTB's about 7 years ago now FWIW. Embrace a wider range cassette, you can have your cake and eat it!

Long experience also says that its WAY too easy for me to undergear, and end up breaking traction and spinning out on tough climbs. I’m way more successful if I use a bigger gear, attack harder and carry more momentum

A key to being a good climber is knowing when to sit and spin and preserve energy, and when to use the energy that you've preserved to attack the more technical sections in the manner you describe... If you can't sit and spin a low enough gear at any point, then you're using more energy than you need to on the less technical parts of the climbs.

I don’t care. A. Bicycle. Does. Not. Have. A. Motor.

Many. Do.

Your lack of desire to embrace them does not mean that they don't exist, and aren't popular with a great many people, and for good reasons...

I get it, kind of. I still prefer the feeling of riding a well balanced unassisted MTB on a decent trail than I do an eBike that weighs maybe 6-10kg more. But by the same token, the eBike allows me to get more trails in for a given effort, so it's swings and roundabouts... I'm certainly not telling you to buy one, but don't bury your head in the sand as to their existence, and why they are so popular amongst other riders! And a HUGE part is that modern, long travel, long/low/slack bikes with 29er wheels, big grippy slow rolling tyres with inserts in etc, the kind we all ended up riding for their capability on the descents, have blunted the enjoyment of riding for many people by penalising them on the uphills more than they reward on the downs. At least if you're not EWS-worthy fitness wise.

I'm not saying this cos I work for a tyre company, but try ditching your slow/heavy rear tyre for a faster rolling one, ideally a semi slick, and see how you feel after a ride. Were the trade offs worth it? It will be quite personal of course, but I found for a lot of my riding when I was on a 160mm travel 29er, I was happy enough with a Rock Razor out back and a Magic Mary up front, and the trade off in reduced braking traction on the rear was more than worth it in rolling speed elsewhere... Not always mind, but more often than not... YMMV of course.

Interesting thread.

I also have a RocketMAX that weighs around the same. My previous 'big' bike was also a lighter mk2 Rocket.

Weirdly I have some of the same 'misgivings' about the RocketMAX as an 'all day' bike.

Granted, mine is run in fairly extreme guise - 27.5+ rear end and 29+ front. Gearing is 1x9 with an 11-42 cassette and a 32t chainring. In spite of what others have said here about that not being low enough gearing, climbing is fine as I like to sit and grind it out, and on technical stuff the RocketMAX climbs brilliantly as long as you keep it moving.

The thing is an absolute beast when you get moving. With momentum, it's pretty much unstoppable and is capable WAY beyond my limits of talent and skill.

My issue feels like it's getting up to that speed on the flat (out of corners, etc.) I really struggle to get the thing to accelerate sharply. It will get moving, but on its own terms and at its own pace. The mk2 Rocket was much sharper and responsive to pedal input.

Given the relative similarity in geometry, weight and suspension setup, the big difference for me can only be the wheels. My DHF 29x2.8 up front is a tractor tyre and the DT Swiss wheelset isn't the lightest. My previous Rocket I ran as a 26+ so while similar wheels and the exact same tyre models they were quite a bit smaller and lighter.

I guess my 100kg weight might also be a factor, but I seem to pump out enough power to keep my other bikes moving quick enough.

Having said all that, I'm currently of the mindset that what it's good for (big mountain days out) the RocketMAX is as good as it gets so I'll put up with the occasional feelings of sluggishness. If I just want a blast round the woods I'll take the old 29er Epic or my 140mm hardtail (unless I'm feeling a bit masochistic then the RocketMAX gets dragged out there too - 'train' on the bike you want to ride and all that).

(I do have a hankering to rebuild the older Rocket as my messing about bike but the new one was my 50th birthday pressie and I'm not sure Mrs Noise would get why I was riding the 'obselete' bike again)

Other option is to change the wheels - I have both a full 27.5+ set or some conventional 29er wheels I could swap in. I guess common sense says I ought to try this spring to see what difference they make, but I'm shallow enough that I just love the look of the monster truck wheels and that puts me off going more conventional again!

I’m not a Peaks ‘specialist’ but have done a few rides to get a feel for it & the reality is, I wouldn’t want to ride a bigger travel 29er for what I have ridden & seen there, for all of the reasons you have stated.

My little bike (Spur) is built light, but with an angleset & its geometry is almost identical to my bigger bigger bike (Madonna) & 90% of the time is the better, faster bike.

I tend to swap out to heavier wheels & bigger tyres for those days that warrant it (steep, S. Wales valley riding) or I run a very light set of wheels with a EXO Dissector/Rekon combo around home (FoD) usually, which can be fruity on the steep stuff, but on everything else, the bike is scary fast.

There is a reason why I ride it most of the time. The Madonna feels like a pig in comparison unless I’m wringing its neck, or racing. But then thats exactly what it’s for, not general riding around (unless I’m feeling sadistic).

Demo something similar with different suspension kinematics, I would be surprised if lots of brands don’t run more anti sag than cotic.

Ps I’m doing Stoneking on my 31lbs coil trek remedy 27.5 next summer. Round the Surrey hills it’s a great all day bike, I’m just hoping I feel the same when I get back! 😬

Take a look at your rear suspension. I found, in 2021, that I didn't get on with the Bird Aether. Great bike that seemed to handle brilliantly. I still hold some descending KOMs from that bike.

BUT, the way it used to squat around its sag point and then not move much just seems to really drain my power output like I'd just been off the bike for 3 months.

I swapped all the components, bar the forks onto a longer travel Ripmo - same wheels, same tyres, and instantly I wasn't pulled out on every climb.

Also av2000m ascend day is pretty respectable to start with, and those are big ass grabby tyres.

I rode a Cotic RocketMax on a demo day and it felt a lot draggier, slower than my Vitus Sommet.

I think it's just a mix of everything, including the geometry, which just makes it feel big and slow. 99% of the time, it's too much.

I'm about the same weight, and as my name suggests, no spring chicken, but don't have the same problem on my Sentinel. Don't think the big wheels have any detrimental effect - quite the opposite.

The thing is an absolute beast when you get moving. With momentum, it’s pretty much unstoppable and is capable WAY beyond my limits of talent and skill.

My issue feels like it’s getting up to that speed on the flat (out of corners, etc.) I really struggle to get the thing to accelerate sharply. It will get moving, but on its own terms and at its own pace. The mk2 Rocket was much sharper and responsive to pedal input.

That's exactly it.

Your lack of desire to embrace them does not mean that they don’t exist, and aren’t popular with a great many people

I'm all too aware they exist and they're (too) popular. I saw a whole 2 non-ebikes yesterday, both being ridden by people significantly older than me (go them!). I'm still not interested. Same as I'm not interested in AXS or DI2, despite having ridden bikes with them on and thought they were amazing. I will NOT have a bike that needs a laptop to make it work.
A mate reckons he laps 3 times as fast on an e compared to a non-e. Still don't care. Its not about speed, its not about ground covered, its about the satisfaction of doing the job right, and if you're a healthy, able bodied person, you do not need a motor to do the work for you. I'd also be interested to know if these eriders doing 3 times the distance and thereby causing 3 times the wear on the trails are doing 3 times the trail maintenance and/or donating 3 times as much to their local advocacy groups.
Sorry - bit of a sore point with me. Too many idiots buying their fitness and not having the skills or the respect for the countryside to back it up and just trashing the place instead.

I do think the main perceived negative difference between modern bikes and older ones is that the bigger wheels and heavier tyres have more rotational inertia resisting and I think humans are surprisingly sensitive to that.

The flip side of that is what you lose in resistance to acceleration you gain in resistance to deceleration. And the bigger wheels roll over the rough better and grip better so they win in those ways.

Obviously an increased weight of bike+rider is less efficient uphill (but it’s bike+rider that matters, not bike weight). Also heavier and sticker tyres tend to have more hysteresis loss and you can’t do anything about that - faster bikes downhill tend to need heavier tyres.

On the whole these big new bikes are faster and easier but they will need more force to accelerate, so there’s an argument to have a lower gear to help with that when you’re tired.

You’ve done very well to make it that light with those tyres on it. As others have said there is no way I would ride your gear ratios in the Peaks. My 29er is 32 oval and 10-50 out back and I wouldnt want to make it any harder especially in the winter where ground conditions mean Im 1 gear lower than in the summer in most places even with the same tyres

“I will NOT have a bike that needs a laptop to make it work.”

That would be very annoying!

My favourite MTB at the moment is my Pipedream Moxie hardtail. 29” wheels, 160mm fork and singlespeed. My other MTB is a Levo - 29” wheels, 160mm fork, 11 gears and a motor. I connected it to an app a few times but that was annoying, for me it’s mostly a time saver for squeezing in MTB rides when commuting - two handy buttons that speed up the boring/slow bits.

“if you’re a healthy, able bodied person, you do not need a motor to do the work for you”

I’m not sure about these people who think they need gears to go MTBing, I think they need to get fitter and stop going on such long rides causing trail erosion when a singlespeed would send them home sooner…

Ps I’m doing Stoneking on my 31lbs coil trek remedy 27.5 next summer.

I’ll see you there, then. I’m the timing & food station monkey. Expect it to be emotional. Ash is a ****ing sadist (in the best possible way).

I have the exact same bike, which I bought in exactly the same way (not bothered by the 27.5, laugh my ass off on the 29), smashed up the trail wheels in a couple of rides, used to ride predominantly in the Peak......but, I love that bike for everything, quick laps to 3000m+ days. I find it actually goes pretty well up and along, it has a nice momentum while still feeling pretty snappy when I need it.

I'm a bit heavier than you, about 73kg, but I find it shifts pretty well for it's size/weight. While I've had it I found that tweaking the shock has made a big difference, but I've settled on what I feel is a nice mix of composed and poppy. Potentially tweaking the settings/pressures could help a bit? Not sure what shock you have, but I found the Cane Creek app pretty good for helping hone in the DB Air on mine. If it's a little boggy, the bike will feel like riding a sofa.

Position wise, again, I found it took a while to get an all day position sorted. I've got the seat pretty far forward. I don't think dropping the stack on a long, stretched out bike like the Rocket MAX is going to help, if you're steerer allows it, I'd try dropping a couple of spacers under the stem and see if that makes any difference. It might open up your upper body a bit, opposed to being in the superman position.

I run 30t - 11-46, which I find gives me enough rage for pretty much everything around here (Vancouver, BC), and it only really leaves me wanting on this one 30%+ loose fire road, but maybe dropping your ratios a bit will encourage more spinning? Likewise, I didn't notice your height, but there's been a lot of crank-length chat lately, maybe some shorter cranks would feel a bit better? It would certainly help with the clearance on the Rocket. Know anyone with some 160mm knocking about that you could borrow?

I think you've just come up against the fact that big bouncy 29ers ride very differently to bikes like your Soul. And that if you're used to sprinting and hopping around on a Soul, a big 29er is going to feel pretty hard work in comparison, especially on longer rides.

Big 29ers are heavy, and that does matter if you're hoiking the bike up a techy climb, or accelerating repeatedly out of corners, especially on flatter ground or longer rides. Unless you're an absolute monster or a pro EWS rider, it's hard work.

Try and make the bike livelier with different tyres or lighter components and you potentially compromise it elsewhere. Nature of the beast.

FWIW I run the same gearing as you on a hardtail on it's absolutely fine pretty much everywhere. But I think you (and I) maybe need to accept that on a bigger bike we need easier gears to conserve a bit of energy if we want to ride as we'd like to the rest of the time.

Certainly the Rocket feels far more calorie heavy than anything else. Up to 3hrs on pretty much anything else, I wouldn’t bother eating and I’d maybe get through a mouthful or 2 of water. This Rocket I’ll have a bar or a handful of fruit/nut/chocums mix. But again – why? What makes this bike so different that I need a different fueling strategy to anything else. If I went for a (hilly) hike with a 35lb pack on, I’d just stop for a normal lunch (or at the top whichever came first).

how often are you eating on longer rides? a single bar on a 3 hour ride means you are absolutely rinsing your body's energy levels, go any further and you'll bonk, hard (this is why average marathon runners tend to die around 20 miles in - no energy left after 3 and a bit hours). You should (in my opinion) be taking a little bit in every 20-30 minutes, either through a sugary drink or a handful of snacks, or whatever you like. It will keep your energy levels up and avoid dying off.

i'd disagree on gear ratios - your 42T sounds small, but you're pairing it with a small 28t up front - your gearing is already marginally lower than a 34/50. at 60rpm you're doing 3.5mph. a 50T would have you going 3mph. I don't personally think that'll make much of a difference to finding a climb tough - if I'm going anything like that slowly over a long distance I just get off and walk. maybe try a larger casette from a mate, but I wouldn't buy a bigger one unless yours is worn out

I’m not sure about these people who think they need gears to go MTBing, I think they need to get fitter and stop going on such long rides causing trail erosion when a singlespeed would send them home sooner…

Ha.

I did actually use to single speed a fair amount in the Peaks. The SS bit was alright as the typical descents of the time were more about not braking than trying to apply power, and most of the climbs weren’t too bad on a silly light nippy bike. I ended up cracking the frame and never really got back into it.

I still commute round Sheff on a fixie, mind.

Have you done any structured training - both for pedal fitness and strength? Might be worth a go.

I still think your gearing isn’t very low - I find on the 29er it goes much better with higher leg speed in a lower gear. It definitely holds speed up better than my previous trail 27.5” - but loses a bit of initial acceleration feel.

Also I find with a good spin I don’t ruin my legs so quickly and I have more energy in reserve to accelerate up through steeper tech climbs.

What shock have you got on there and how is it setup? I always find air shocks feel a bit too much mushy in the mid range and that can make them feel a little lethargic - unless you have them pumped up really high and then you lose the small bump. I’m therefore on a cascade link and coil shock on my sentinel. Feels like there’s more to push against whilst retaining small bump plushness.

the massive flywheels shod in hefty rubber

Big grippy tyres will always be slow to pedal. Great on descents, they suck the life out of you everywhere else.

If you are going to be riding for several hours, you need to find a level of effort that you can sustain and just keep in a gear that lets you spin away. Assuming you are eating some food mid-ride, if you are moderately fit, you should be able to ride for 6 hours or so as long as you just stick to spinning in relatively easy gears. My guess is that those big tyres make it feel slow and you're overdoing the effort to compensate.

But I’ve got a very competent 140mm forked hardtail,

I would just ride that. I do just ride that. I can't stand riding a FS bike for any kind of distance.

I use the same gearing as you and don't have any hill issues up to 25% incline.

And tyres definitely make a difference.

Perhaps the real answer here is a new bike?

My most-ridden MTB is my Orange Stage 4 which is light, super-responsive, fun and engaging - and pretty capable (with some geo mods).

I wouldn't like to have a long-travel 29er as my only bike, much as I love them.

A mate reckons he laps 3 times as fast on an e compared to a non-e. Still don’t care. Its not about speed, its not about ground covered, its about the satisfaction of doing the job right, and if you’re a healthy, able bodied person, you do not need a motor to do the work for you. I’d also be interested to know if these eriders doing 3 times the distance and thereby causing 3 times the wear on the trails are doing 3 times the trail maintenance and/or donating 3 times as much to their local advocacy groups.
Sorry – bit of a sore point with me. Too many idiots buying their fitness and not having the skills or the respect for the countryside to back it up and just trashing the place instead.

Solidly off topic, with a load of absolute guff on a rant. 😆

FWIW, I would say, like for like, I can probably get 2.5 times the laps in on my ebike over my leg bikes. I don’t actually ride that amount more trails, I just do it all a bit quicker, but to ranting like some virtue signalling martyr is stretching it somewhat.

And to get all presumptuous about trail maintenance because we ride more trails? in my experience where I am, it’s mostly people who dig ride ebikes.

I always associated the rocketmax - particularly the newer ones - with winch and plummet enduro racing. As such not sure it’s ever going to feel great for marathon days out as it’s not really what it’s designed for? If cotic are your thing a jeht or flaremax as an all rounder may give you some more zip? Personally sounds like if you were starting again a 130mm rear / 140/50 front all rounder would be a good bet. Something like the nukeproof reactor or shorter travel canyon strive

I'd maybe try sticking something like a Rock Razor on the back for long rides. You'll lose a bit of grip for sure, but also shed a massive chunk of rolling resistance and you may not lose as much grip as you think, particularly if your longer rides aren't as full on technically as your shorter outings.

A mate of mine rides a Geometron with mahoosive, heavy casing tyres on and keeps complaining that he's lost fitness - I suspect he's simply dealing with a huge amount of rolling resistance. Or you can simply work at becoming astonishingly strong and fit. The tyre option is probably cheaper and easier.

I expect a lot of it is simply that pushing on the pedals has a less immediate reaction the more travel you have.

23psi F/25psi R

Disclaimer - I'm out of touch with how hard you can hit things on a bike like that and my local riding isn't as rocky as yours -
Is that a fair bit of air in tyres of that size for someone your weight? Bike could roll better overall with tyres that can conform more rather than ping?

I know little to nothing about enduro bikes, having been out of mountain biking for 10 years and just coming back with a little xc bike, but it seems odd that anyone would look at a 160/170mm steel enduro bike and wonder why it isn't sharp and snappy out of the corners and is hard work over a long day of climbing.

everything in mountain biking is a compromise and it seems that the complaint is that it's not very good at the things it's not intended to be good at.

It's a main battle tank, not a rally car.

Hmm. Something about the type of bike/wheels/tyres inevitably will make it feel like you describe. My steel FS 29er (with 2.6/2.5 DHF/HRII) is 'harder going' and less sprightly than my steel SS HT (with 2.3 HRII/Forecaster), which in turn is harder going than my Ti gravel bike with 700x40c WTB Nano's)

The other, possibly contributing factor, maybe your increasing age and amount of exercise. I'm 55. Throughout my 40s, I was commuting 4 days a week, plus often a weekday night ride, a big ride on my day off, and another ride at the weekend. Increasingly, over the last 3-4 years, I've found that volume of riding just a bit more fatiguing, I could ride it, but would sometimes feel tired, or lacking in that 'zip' or top end you feel when you are really 'on it'. If you're riding 4-6 days a week, plus gym/weight sessions, you might not be giving enough attention to what recovery and rest looks like, or how important it is for overall fitness.

I've recently bought the 'fast at 50' book, and read some threads on here about exercise/fitness as we get older. Not read it yet or actively done anything differently, but am conscious that a more sophisticated and focused approach is probably increasingly relevant rather than just the 'ride as much/often as you can' to maintain fitness.

I’m not a Peaks ‘specialist’ but have done a few rides to get a feel for it & the reality is, I wouldn’t want to ride a bigger travel 29er for what I have ridden & seen there, for all of the reasons you have stated.

My little bike (Spur) is built light, but with an angleset & its geometry is almost identical to my bigger bigger bike (Madonna) & 90% of the time is the better, faster bike.

I tend to swap out to heavier wheels & bigger tyres for those days that warrant it (steep, S. Wales valley riding) or I run a very light set of wheels with a EXO Dissector/Rekon combo around home (FoD) usually, which can be fruity on the steep stuff, but on everything else, the bike is scary fast.

There is a reason why I ride it most of the time. The Madonna feels like a pig in comparison unless I’m wringing its neck, or racing. But then thats exactly what it’s for, not general riding around (unless I’m feeling sadistic).

I'm very much in the same thoughts as @HobNob
I have a Ripmo AF coil and its a bit of a heffer to ride my usual trails, when I compare it to my Spur. And that sticks in my mind come choosing a bike to ride. The Spur just feels so zippy and so much less effort to ride. But, it has its limits and that is when you need you bigger bike.
To me, the biggest difference is tyres. +1kg tyre and soft compound on the Ripmo makes a huge difference. When I put light XC tyres on my HT a few years ago for a long epic ride, it was so noticeable, so much easier.
The Rekon EXO on my spur is excellent. light, fast, tough and fairly grippy. I would try something like that on the rear first. I use this and an Assegai exo up front for my grippy, winch and plummet riding on my Spur. Rekon/Rekon when its a long day out.
I'd also look at more range on your gears. Its the cumulative effort of 3hrs riding that zaps you. Might be ok for 2hrs, but once you start getting beyond, it'll drain you quick.
Pro's can get away with the big tyres front and back. They are much younger and stronger!