harobikes - weren't they a decent bmx brand too?
Some interesting brands for sure, but other than some recognition with people in their mid 40s+ do those brands really have any value in todays market?
right but you've kind of got that arse-about-face... [I]warranties[/I] are optional, provided by the manufacturer & often not worth the paper they're written on depending on what they decide (see "lifetime" warranties, or Giant). What you'll lose if the retailer you purchased from goes bust is your [I]statutory rights[/I] which are way more important as a consumer...no because the warranty is with the manufacturer. Would only affect any companies that go down the plug with wiggle. So if you bought a hope brake hope would still be the warranty provider.
Some interesting blast-from-the-past names in that lot.
And a few "never heard of 'em" names as well, that people have paid £500 or whatever for the IP to.
Wonder why someone's paid £2.7k for the IP to Moore Lange as well?
interesting Thankyou Brant. That passed me by. Well that is a good example of how much a historical brand name is worth on its own. £4150
you have to remember alot of the value comes from pumping money into marketing. When that stops and the brand fades it’s not worth much at all. Certainly not the millions of debt which no doubt is lurking
it sounds like all the couriers have put them on stop and the administrator is working to get new temporary services in place now they have taken over as the legal entity. I’m sure they will get proforma accounts open in a few days but it will block up the system for a bit
Neil SuperstarComponents
I thought they were the UK rights holder of Rock Lobster (distinct from the US Ti frames). They had the Merlin Malt brand as well.
I found this as I was trying to get my reluctant memory to kick into gear:
http://www.barracudabicycles.com/
For some reason I remember the name from seeing it every month on one of those 2-4 page adverts that were just catalogue listings. For some reason my brain has associated the name with Merlin but chances are I'm totally wrong.
Chinese companies will pay for Western brand names to help distance themselves form AliExpress connotations, might be a bit of that going on.
Could be wrong but didn’t they do the same to another company on the way out? don’t blame them at all!
They did it to Halfords but not for non payment. They were an OEM supplier on some of the higher end Carreras so they also started to sell the whole Hope range through selected Halfords stores, was going really well. That was until someone in Head Office decided to dump a load of brakes and wheel sets on their online store for 40-50% RRP, breaking an agreement with Hope about discounting (it's why you rarely see Hope stuff with more than a 10% discount, Hope actively support buying through your LBS who can discount further for regular customers buying in-store). The very next day Hope stopped all supplies and even sent a courier to Halfords' warehouse to reclaim a recent delivery! I hadn't long left working for Halfords so had a few contacts from my time working on the Hope supply side (specific training and sales knowledge) and there were photos of the parts going back out the door being shared around, lots of ill feeling as we had all put a hell of a lot of effort into the whole deal and a few even left because of it. It was part of the push of the Bike Hut brand and was meant to be a separate entity to cater for the high-end market. That one thing meant that all the distributors were now wary of stocking Halfords with stuff, most moved to an individual part order supply deal instead, and turned the Bike Hut branding towards just being the new name for the cycle department inside the store.
but other than some recognition with people in their mid 40s+ do those brands really have any value in todays market?
*Some* of the historical brand stuff can be a massive seller to the middle aged mamil with deep pockets and spare time...
Super sad to see the struggle here for all involved, bloody tough times. I hope something good can rise from this situation with their brands and a revised structure.
Took a punt on a bike for the 7year old earlier in the week that turned up just now.
Placed a couple of orders yesterday showing as processing, I hope like Neil alludes to they can sort out couriers if the administrators keep it running (they most have so much stock on hand to get rid of).
That was until someone in Head Office decided to dump a load of brakes and wheel sets on their online store for 40-50% RRP, breaking an agreement with Hope about discounting
I'd be interested to see how that works/worked. As I understand it you can’t legally force someone to sell something at a specific price or prevent them offering discounts in this way. It's price fixing.
You can increase the buying price so they would have to sell below cost but it would be their decision to do so if they wish.
It's a long while ago but I seem to recall this was the crux of tesco's case vs levi (which they lost on the basis they were buying grey import in order to still turn a profit)
I really don’t think their prices were THAT low to be unsustainably undercutting everyone else. At least not until they started the big discounts this year when they were already in trouble.
A large sized shop i used to frequent a decade or so ago couldn't get some of their parts at wholesale prices for the prices wiggle and CRC were selling them at. They'd also get them quicker and have less hassle with returns/warranty than they would with the wholesaler. More recently a shop a mate owned was still ordering stuff from CRC/Wiggle to keep his shop in Sweden in stock of basics (and not so basics!). Brexit put paid to that though.
There’s about 30 patterns
more like 300... I've got 8 or 9 different patterns in my box of bits, and that only covers about ~20 bikes (some of which i've sold of course)
*Some* of the historical brand stuff can be a massive seller to the middle aged mamil with deep pockets and spare time…
Yup, Use Carbon bars and stem on my winter road bike.
I thought manufacturers forcing fixed prices wasn’t allowed
Yep, there's a reason there's two Rs in RRP
Bugger. Ordered one of the half price Ragleys for the boy earlier this week, he was really excited. Going to have the CC faff to get a refund now. On the plus side (for someone on here) I probably have a spare hanger for sale as that arrived separately
Sorry to see this happen for many reasons, not least everyone who is going to lose their jobs
I’d be interested to see how that works/worked. As I understand it you can’t legally force someone to sell something at a specific price or prevent them offering discounts in this way. It’s price fixing.
From what I was told they didn't say you couldn't discount the products, it was more that if you do they reserved the right to no longer accept orders from you. We could discount orders in store but it was not allowed to be advertised which is where the online discount fell foul presumably. It was designed to stop big players undercutting your small LBS, similar to what anyone with Nukeproof bikes in stock now will be going through while CRC sell them off at massive discounts. It definitely was not price fixing, it was/is protecting your customers.
I'm presuming that Hope took back their stock/stopped supplying so that CRC couldn't dump a load of product online at stupidly low prices and history the market for a while.
harobikes – weren’t they a decent bmx brand too?
They still are - well, the Lineage stuff anyway. I'm puzzled by Lakeshoes.co.uk in that John Pye auction too, as Lake are also still trading.
Those two auctions appear to just be for the UK url - but I've no idea what you could do with that without a link to the parent company. Sell fakes?
Going to have the CC faff to get a refund now
Have they gone bump in the last few minutes? Until they do there's every chance you'll either get the bike or a refund through normal channels.
Whilst they're trading they still have to behave like they are
Those two auctions appear to just be for the UK url – but I’ve no idea what you could do with that without a link to the parent company. Sell fakes?
Could have been purchased by the manufacturer to sell direct in UK, or the distro that's picked them up now?
Took a punt on a Ragley frame on Tuesday. CRC dispatch email went out on Wednesday saying Friday delivery. Looking at the ParcelForce tracking info, it was only tracked as being sorted at the National Hub this morning.
Hopefully the next update is that it reaches my nearest delivery depot and not Chiggle’s, (suggesting it’s been requested back)! 😬
Nothing unusual about the bikes being delivered a bit late. I imagine a few staff have jumped ship and the remaining a swamped with orders, each bike needs to be set up and checked, so a delay would not be too concerning.
@dangeourbrain. There is something the suppliers can do to maintain their pricing, don’t know how/what though. For example I know companies want to maintain their brand image as upmarket through not offering discounts on their products. Dyson do not allow stockists to discount their hairdryers etc (this is why whenever a shop like Boots has a 10% off ALL hairdryers the small print says Dyson are excluded. Same goes for the high end fragrance like Dior/Chanel, when there is a sale these are excluded as the brands do not want to be associated with ‘discounts’ and want to maintain their image of being upmarket. If they find out a shop has discounted their products then there is some explaining to do to prevent them pulling the products. Shops that do offer discounts on these products have usually bought through a third party and not directly from the brand so don’t need to worry about upsetting them. Could be similar with Hope.
No price fixing is highly illegal, thank god. Unless you have a selective distribution agreement which would be legally difficult to justify for cycling products.
10% off ALL hairdryers the small print says Dyson are excluded. Same goes for the high end fragrance like Dior/Chanel, when there is a sale these are excluded as the brands do not want to be associated with ‘discounts
This is usually achieved by not carrying the sale for the retailer. When boots have "20% off" boots aren't generally discounting anything, they simply ask/tell their suppliers they're paying less this month because they're running a promo. The suppliers carry the cost and boots margin remains the same.
Once a supplier or brand is big enough to think they can, they simply refuse to grant the discount boots want, boots don't promo it and the brand risks the loss in sales.
Loose too many sales and they delist you, that is very bad.
Edit:Quite possibly in the halfords hope case, halfords said "were doing this discount" and hope told them they were on their own so halfords told them to come collect all their kit. (which like a supermarket, I highly doubt halfords pay for until its sold).
Chiggle is for sale. Statement from administrators, lifted from PB...
WiggleCRC, the online sports retail group, is set to be put up for sale following the appointment of Joint Administrators.
Alastair Massey and Tony Wright of specialist business advisory firm FRP were appointed to Mapil Midco 1 Limited and Wiggle Limited on 25th October 2023. A group of subsidiary companies that form the remainder of WiggleCRC including Chain Reaction Cycles Limited, Chain Reaction Cycles Retail Limited and Hotlines Europe Limited are expected to be placed into administration imminently.
WiggleCRC was formed in 2017 following the merger of Wiggle and Chain Reaction Cycles. It was later acquired by Signa Sports United in 2021 and now operates a stable of brands across the cycling, triathlon, running and outdoor adventure gear markets, including Wiggle, Chain Reaction Cycles, Vitus, Nukeproof, dhb and Hotlines.
WiggleCRC and its brands remain fully operational and will continue to trade. The business, which employs around 450 staff, has headquarters in Portsmouth, UK and operates a 320,000 sq ft warehouse facility in Bilston, Wolverhampton. All staff have been retained by the Joint Administrators at this stage.
The appointment of the Joint Administrators and sale process come after the company lost its financial support through its parent company Signa Sports United NV.
Tony Wright, Partner at FRP and Joint Administrator of WiggleCRC, said: “WiggleCRC is one of Europe’s best-known sports retailers and has built a committed customer following in the cycling community. The administration provides a crucial period of protection for WiggleCRC as we prepare to market the business for sale. The group has a quality stable of brands and a leading market position, so we expect there to be interest and encourage potential buyers to come forward.
“We’d like to reassure customers that all operations are running as normal, including the websites and online sales of Wiggle.com, ChainReactionCycles.com and hotlines-uk.com . Customer service support is live and can be contacted with any queries through the respective websites.”
Where do the staff fit in this? At some point if they aren't likely to get paid and they see no future in the survival of the business I'd assume they stop turning up rather than working for free?
That might make order and return processing challenging.
Chain Reaction Cycles Limited, Chain Reaction Cycles Retail Limited and Hotlines Europe Limited are expected to be placed into administration imminently.
Interesting that they're somehow not already in administration even though wiggle is.
in the UK at least though that would be cybersquatting, and whoever owned the trademark could take the URL off you via the courts!If you were sportshoes.com you may see some value in lakeshoes.co.uk pushing straight to you.
Different legal entities?
Where do the staff fit in this? At some point if they aren’t likely to get paid
I believe just after the tax man and before the banks for wages (and holiday?) other stuff like expenses they're unsecured creditors and get pence in the pound if they're lucky.
you are correct in that most offers are supplier funded, but it seems to be more nuanced than that, and yes price fixing is illegal and as you said I too would like to know how that works. Reluctant jumper has given an example of what happened to Halfords/Hope and this can often happen with big brands. Given my experience in retail (not going in to it in an open forum, and as I am not the ‘buyer’ I don’t know how companies do it but they seem to do it) I have been involved in similar situations throughout my career so I would believe it was Hope not Halfords who made the decision like reluctantjumper said.
Where do the staff fit in this? At some point if they aren’t likely to get paid and they see no future in the survival of the business I’d assume they stop turning up rather than working for free?
Depends on whether they think that the business can be saved. Why jeopardize that by withdrawing labour?
We'll know more by Monday as either they have an interested party waiting or it's a last gasp before it all folds. The staff must be in turmoil as finding work so close to christmas (seasonal recruitment has finished by now) will be tough.
Given my experience in retail (not going in to it in an open forum, and as I am not the ‘buyer’ I don’t know how companies do it but they seem to do it) I have been involved in similar situations throughout my career so I would believe it was Hope not Halfords who made the decision like reluctantjumper said.
It was definitely Hope who pulled the plug, it left three future Carrera models without a supply for wheels and brakes just as production was due to start. Only one model made it through as getting sufficient supply of replacement OEM parts was impossible as all the manufacturers had already filled their production slots for other brands. I can't remember which model it was that made it into the shops but it was obvious as it had a full XT drivetrain but random wheels and brakes. It didn't sell very well due to this. It led to the cancellation of taking the brand upmarket and the person responsible for the cheap selloff of the Hope kit was removed from their position.
We’ll know more by Monday as either they have an interested party waiting or it’s a last gasp before it all folds.
If as suggested up there somewhere the reason the liquidity was pulled was trouble at the top rather than inherent issues with the company then hopefully they can find a buyer. It's a strong brand with - until very recently - a strong position and a lot of potential for someone with the pockets to get through this.
I can imagine some of the house brands being dumped to allow them to focus better on retail or being hived off into a purely direct to consumer company distinct from wiggle crc.
(I suspect it'll be Wednesday when all those invoices tick past month end that we'll see something rather than Monday but purely guess work)
Shall we have a whip round and run it as a benevolent co-operative?
Good lord. Can you imagine the faff! You'd need to start the AGM 18 months early just to be sure everyone was likely to be ready by the time it's due to start.
Then ten minutes in you'd start with the "oh my pen has run out can I borrow yours" from the 80% who prefer to turn up to a full day meeting with only the clothes their wearing.
It's a real shame, hope they find a buyer. They've been around ages, and I've been pretty impressed with the Vitus/Nukeproof/Ragley stuff I've had.
Anyone remember the old magazine ads? This is from 24 years ago when we used to ride around lead-acid powered halogen lights and 80mm travel elastomer forks.
Crc had black hope v4 brakes for £159.99 earlier this week which is the cheapest id seen them by a mile, they also but e4s down quite a bit. Managed to get the V4s price matched by Tredz, glad I didn't wait around.
Was srprised to see Onguard locks in that list, they give all appearances of still trading as normal.
DT78
Free Memberharobikes – weren’t they a decent bmx brand too?
Aye, though like most bmx brands they also did a lot of crap. Bob Haro was one of the BMX riders in ET! Though, he sold up 30 years ago.
What does "renewal date" mean for those brands?
How does the latest news affect refunds. I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it.
How does the latest news affect refunds.
Officially it doesn't but...
I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it
They may not be there when you do, that would be bad.
Any return currently is a gamble
On refunds, I think it's hard to say.
I decided to bite the bullet and send my outstanding returns back on Weds via next day courier. Arrived with Wiggle yesterday and was refunded at 10am this morning. How long that continues for is anyone's guess.
neverbeentomoabFull Member<br />How does the latest news affect refunds. I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it.<br /><br />
i sent back a pair of £90 trousers on Monday, I suspect I’ll never see the refund..
May have been mentioned already (just catching up with the thread) and administrators appointed today.
I was owed £650 for an eBay dispute by Trisportsresort (wiggles eBay account) and was very pleased to have got it this morning after a prompt.
I was owed £650 for an eBay dispute by Trisportsresort (wiggles eBay account) and was very pleased to have got it this morning after a prompt.
Nice one mate, just squeaked it in there.
😀
Sorry if this has been posted on here already but The EscapeCollective Geek Warning podcast has just been talking about this and said Mike Ashley might interested in parts of the business.
Coming soon - the 2024 £399 Nukeproof Mega Hybrid with Shimano Tourney 7 speed, rack and guards.
Where do the staff fit in this? At some point if they aren’t likely to get paid
I believe just after the tax man and before the banks for wages (and holiday?) other stuff like expenses they’re unsecured creditors and get pence in the pound if they’re lucky.
My understanding is wages are the priority, then the creditors get whatever is left
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees.
Administrators will (almost) certainly tighten returns and refund policies to satisfy only the minimum legislative requirements.
Anything else will be at their absolute discretion
I think it depends - for a large brand that depends on customer care (ie a john lewis) that wouldn't be the case as you lose more value messing with the brand than you get for refusing a couple of kettles. for someone like CRC where that's less of a issue, I expect you're right. That said, the stuff they punt on their ebay site (returns/ex demos) doesn't seem to be loads cheaper than the stuff on their core site
Employees are somewhere near the bottom of creditors. It's the banks/secured lending first, then HMRC, then suppliers.
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees
Exactly this!
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees.
This is unfair (in general). Administration is time consuming and difficult. There are many creditors and shareholders just waiting to pounce on you for the slighest wasted expenditure. It's facile to blame administrators instead of the former management for creditors not getting paid (in general).
It’s facile to blame administrators instead of the former management for creditors not getting paid
The difficulty is the administrator is often more expensive than the day to day running of the business. It's not that they're not doing a hard job and doing it well, it's that they sure as hell know how to charge for that and manage to take their money when even the tax man can't.
It's difficult not to find it galling that a business can enter administration for two weeks and end up paying 60-70% of its value to the administrator leaving everyone else to squabble over the 30% when there would have been a 3x bigger pot to divy up had they just gone bust.
Of course counter to that are the businesses saved when they go into administration who go on to settle up their debts and come back out profitable. There's got to be at least one of those a year.
Employees are somewhere near the bottom of creditors. It’s the banks/secured lending first, then HMRC, then suppliers.
Happy to be proven wrong but I'm pretty sure you've got the ordering here incorrect.
It's a long time since I had any reason to be interested but seem to recall when it all loomed over me:
VAT
salaries
Secured lending
Other tax & NI liabilities
Supplier (contractual only)
Redundancy
Unsecured creditors (including supplier - anything outside contractual debt)
Can I place a bet on Mike Ashley coming in to buy it all? Evans / Wiggle / CRC / Sports Direct all under one roof.
In fact, I bet he buys it, takes the stock and closes it all to leave one overarching brand selling bikes and kit...
I'm not so sure, his businesses are very high street focused wiggle crc just doesn't fit that model.
That being said there's a definite gap for a "last season" clearance cycling kit shop online (think Paul's cycles but for bits and clothes) and crc wiggle would slip into that without anyone noticing the change.
Hotlines would be gone overnight though.
I thought it would be HMRC/Govt first, but apparently not:
But sorry, employees are much higher up than I thought
Since 1st December 2020, HMRC are also ranked as secondary preferential creditors
I wonder if they were higher up the list previously.
But fair do, I stand corrected too.
It's the internet, it's only normal we were both wrong
Having been in the receiving end of tbis situation twice last year (frying pan - fire) paying staff is fairly low on the list. You can however claim loss of earnings, pension, redundancy pay if applicable from the govt but its capped at i think £570 a week. (You get taxed on this and it takes a few weeks to set up, complete forms and get processed).
We also (300+ employees) set up a claim for lack of notice period and got some ££ for this about a year later.
But yes a worrying time for staff and theyll likely be out of pocket for a period with likelihood out of a job too.
Hope stuffs back
Makes sense for administrators to pay employees otherwise they'd be off the moment they were appointment which would crash the value of the business.
Since 1st December 2020, HMRC are also ranked as secondary preferential creditors
I wonder if they were higher up the list previously.
I can answer that. They previously ranked equally with employees for the first £800 of arrears of pay and accrued untaken holiday as preferential. This was a long time ago.
The Enterprise Act in 2002 (apologies to any lawyers as I've not quoted the full legislative changes of the time and any oversimplification that follows😜) stripped HMRC of their preferential status and introduced the Prescribed Part which was a ring fenced fund for unsecured (last in line) creditors in which HMRC would share. The Prescribed Part is basically 20% of recoveries net of costs and preferential creditors (those employee claims above) up to £800k (back then £600k) before floating charge creditors get paid. A floating charge creditor is one with security over assets you can deal with in the normal course of business like stock.
In 2020 Crown preference was reintroduced ranking behind the employee claims but before the Prescribed Part for taxes that HMRC considers are collected by the company and held for them. The easiest example is PAYE where it is taken off an employee to give to HMRC. VAT is another tax caught. Corporation Tax is not because it is a tax on the company itself.
This article from 2020 sets out some of the issues as seen by the Insolvency trade body R3 as one view point. I am not offering a personal view here.
https://www.r3.org.uk/press-policy-and-research/r3-blog/more/29492/page/1/royal-assent-for-the-finance-bill-but-r3-s-opposition-to-crown-preference-continues/
It is fairly common that the Crown gets stretched harder than other creditors when things are difficult. They cannot put you on stop like your suppliers. This was one of the pro arguments for reintroduction. The flip side of course is they supply nothing to the business directly and someone who shipped a box of goods is now further down the pecking order.
The Prescribed Part comes out after HMRC.
So in practice by the time you're done with HMRC and costs there's a high chance that there's nothing for the Prescribed Part or the floating charge creditors (those with movable security).
Employees have another safety net if not transferred under TUPE because the government underwrites part of their claims and then claims in their place in the estate.
👍 Thank you for that
I had so much of that add - Qranc full fingers, shorty copy stem, sidewinders...
I don't know anything about retail, but I will bet that Mike Ashley wouldn't buy Wiggle for its stock. Dealing with property, workers, IP, this, that and the other...That'd be an expensive way to get stock. (And if the rumours are true, they may have a fuzzy idea of what stock they have...)
It’s not that they’re not doing a hard job and doing it well, it’s that they sure as hell know how to charge for that and manage to take their money when even the tax man can’t.
It’s difficult not to find it galling that a business can enter administration for two weeks and end up paying 60-70% of its value to the administrator leaving everyone else to squabble over the 30%
Getting out of a car crash is often more complicated than getting into it, it's true...
I ordered a set of pedals off crc on Wednesday. Order is listing as 'shipped' . Expectation is they'll arrive tomorrow if everything is ok.
Despite this temporary wobble, CRC have a great rep, internationally, even.
Goodwill, too.
Nice if that could transfer to a high street branch…quick repairs and the odd accessory.
Theres always post offices with excess space😊😊😊
Prices on a Few bits I'm watching have dropped again today, worth checking anything you're after
Anyone else having problems with the return portal not allowing you to select your country? I’m returning a couple of things before it’s too late and can’t get past entering my address on rebound. It’s currently only offering Christmas Island as my country!
@bentleywood I also see the "Christmas Island" problem. It is the only country I can select in the Returns portal so the return fails as the address isn't right.
Cynical "admin error" to reduce returns?
I am tempted to enter an address in the Christmas Islands anyway but not sure I want to gamble that on an expensive dropper going missing.
I have emailed Wiggle, lets see what they say.
"CX" is the ISO code for Christmas Island, sometimes "CX" is used as an abbreviation for "Cancelled" also.
Half of this thread is about people returning stuff.......are you the issue
