Well i can confirm orders are still being dispatched - order placed yesterday and arrived today. Hope Chiggle survive...far cheaper than my LBS, much more stock, and frankly a damned sight more reliable.
AND still giving out Haribo!
Developing that Vitus E-Mythique with the Bafang motor must have cost a bit, there are no other mainstream brands using that motor and from the emtb review, it sounds like they spent a lot of time working with Bafang to improve the quality of switches and connectors and other bits.
Fantic use them and while its not a mainstream brand, you see a few about and one of the notable things is their owners always seem to report good reliability. Not sure how much needed doing tbh.
Neil, the key words in your most recent post are 'apparent problems' and 'looking to be'.
The absence of many hard facts means that much of the comment about the financial health of Signa Holdings is speculation.
Anyone in with access to Austrian and German business reporting?
That would be a better source of information.
It probably means that at its core, Wiggle/CRC is mostly viable,
It was losing money. A lot of money, £92mn in 2022. On sales of £252mn. Prices a third lower than the competition? How do you define viable? It’s been loss making for years. And now those losses need to be funded with money that is not free thanks to interest rate rises.
VCs don’t load a company with debt, it would be a drag on growth.
Private Equity do, to increase their leverage and profits.
Okaaaay.
So do we actually know this has happened, or not?
I' ve got a Wiggle gift voucher to use (from last Christmas) so I thought I'd better spend it. Not having shopped at Wiggle in the past I need to create an account but keep being told to "try again later" so looks like I may have missed the boat.
Has anyone managed to make a return in the last few days?
Fortunately returned most of my bits and pieces last year when I thought something like this was possible, but I did buy a £20 headset a few weeks ago which was not like the picture. Not the end of the world obvs, but I don't want it!
I'm not risking sending anything back.
I'll sell the trousers that were too big on eBay or here instead.
It was losing money. A lot of money, £92mn in 2022. On sales of £252mn. Prices a third lower than the competition? How do you define viable? It’s been loss making for years. And now those losses need to be funded with money that is not free thanks to interest rate rises.
The £92m reported loss in 2022 was misleading as a large part of that was interest to the previous private equity owners and transaction related costs. The adjusted EBITDA (trading profit) was a loss of £5.8m compared to a profit of £34.2m in 2021. Looking back further, 2020 was a profit of £14.5m and 2019 a loss of £0.8m. 2018 was a profit of £12.0m and 2017 around break-even. So it's been up and down (and it's probably safe to assume that 2023 will be worse).
I sent something back last Wednesday, arrived Thursday evening and they emailed to say the refund has been processed this morning.
Bikester, Probikeshop etc. goes
Aren't you supposed to stop trading if you declare insolvency?
Looks like both have their websites up and are still taking orders (although Bikester are saying they can't do returns at the moment).
Sent a couple of things back last week and got the refund into my account today.
Called into the Belfast store on Saturday and it was busy!
Sent a couple of things back last week and got the refund into my account today.
Might risk it with the £20 headset then, chances are it'll still be lying round this time next year otherwise.
Just read on road.cc that Mike Fraser has his beady little eyes on it for Frasers Group.
Can’t think of a worse owner. No doubt the existing brands will be replaced with cheap and nasty sweatshop equivalents. How much high street shit does he own now?
I know people love to hate Mike Ashley but he didn't run this once good business into the ground.
And at least he tries to keep the high street going. I was rather surprised when a Sports Direct opened in Matlock this year - they went into a big store vacated by M&Co on a fairly dead street that would probably have lay empty for years.
AND still giving out Haribo!
So THAT'S why they're in such financial difficulties!
And at least he tries to keep the high street going
He (Frasers) owns a number of prominent buildings in our town and he's left them all empty. H&M were in one and were evicted so he could put one of his brands in there, then never bothered doing it, so it's sat empty now.
He also has the old BHS and Debenhams buildings, both sat empty.
Meanwhile, Sports Direct is on the 1st floor of a building, out of the way of the main high-street.
When they bought Game, they closed the store and moved it into Sports Direct, so another shop (which I think is still owned by them) sat empty.
I was rather surprised when a Sports Direct opened in Matlock this year
As was I. Surely a loss leader and will be closed soon. There isn't the footfall to sustain that store there
...growing market for it though - Matlock is rapidly becoming a Sports Direct kinda town! 🙂
Aren’t you supposed to stop trading if you declare insolvency?
Perhaps there's a different rules where they're based? (I don't think they're a UK company are they?) 🤷♂️
Looks like both have their websites up and are still taking orders (although Bikester are saying they can’t do returns at the moment).
The Bikester one redirects to Wiggle now and won't let you place an order from the UK
Aren’t you supposed to stop trading if you declare insolvency?
Insolvency is a condition, whether you declare it or not. It's being in a position where you cannot pay debts as and when they fall due. You can be insolvent but still profitable, and solvent but loss-making. You should not trade while insolvent.
You can continue trading if you're in administration. The administrator's magic statutory powers means they can suspend payments of the debts falling due so that the company can continue operations and be quasi-solvent until the underlying problem can be fixed. But the administrator has to give due notice to buyers and vendors that the company is in administration - and the buyer/vendor can decide if it's worth the risk of doing business.
(This is in general, in England and Wales. Who knows what happens in Germany or whatever...)
This Rene Benko geezer and Mike Ashley sound like they're two "colourful" entrepreneurs who would find a lot in common if they bumped into each other.
I’ll sell the trousers that were too big on eBay or here instead.
You could always try putting on a bunch of weight. It seems to work for me...
You could always try putting on a bunch of weight. It seems to work for me…
😂
I've got a Code R I purchased a month or so back that I don't really need now. I paid on a credit card so is it safe to risk a return do we think?
Has anyone else done a return in the last few days?
I’ve got a Code R I purchased a month or so back that I don’t really need now. I paid on a credit card so is it safe to risk a return do we think?
Did it cost enough to be covered by section 75 anyway? (the brake had to be more than £100)
What have wiggle failed to deliver if it was? (wiggle having delivered the brake and your right to cancel not extending to about a month so I'm not sure what you'd be planning to rely on the cc protection for).
Are they accepting returns at the minute? (seem to think I saw a post up there saying otherwise).
Who arranges shipping if you do return it? (if the answer isn't them then if it doesn't get accepted at their end it's your risk. if it is them then in theory, so long as you've proof it was collected you may have recourse further down the line if needed.)
For a brake where losses aren't likely to be especially big I'd be deciding how much I think I'd get on ebay at this point.
FWIW I do wonder how much of a negative impact their ridiculously generous returns policy has had on their profitability.
FWIW I do wonder how much of a negative impact their ridiculously generous returns policy has had on their profitability.
I doubt much?
If somethings faulty you can return it.
If something doesn't fit you can return it.
The only generous bit is that you get a year to decide if it fits or not, rather than the usual week to a month most shops allow. How many people are buying trousers and not wearing them for 364 days before raising a return request?
Yeah, marginal difference since they stopped covering the return postage IMO.
Mentioned earlier in the thread, in a piece of impeccable timing I ordered a bike on Wednesday evening. Then saw this story Thursday morning. Had a slightly nervous wait when bike appeared to be dispatched, but not in the hands of the courier for a few days according to the tracking. After a failed delivery attempt yesterday, I can confirm that the bike turned up today. Phew!
Was very well packed and appears to have been carefully built.
It's 'Self-administration', right?
So, what the execs are probably doing is restructuring Sigma to be profitable. Keep the brands and retailers which look to have a future and then probably packing up the poorer bits to sell (maybe to Sports Direct).
I ordered a cheap 11sp XT derailleur (only £48) on Friday, was delivered Monday. I've placed another order today, for more very competitively priced parts. Fingers crossed CRC keep things going...
How many people are buying trousers and not wearing them for 364 days before raising a return request?
It's the ones which have been used/worn particularly I'm thinking of.
Or the buy a brake etc on the off chance then send it back three months later when you've bought something better or didn't need it in the end by which point they've replenished stock etc.
Or the return it to rebuy it for £5 less than the previous one you bought and so on.
There's always a big part of any volume over distance selling that relys on the customer being too lazy/slow to return things like the two extra sizes of shoes they bought and so on. The longer a window you give the more likely they are too get round to it but also the more likely you are to end up with over stock, old delisted kit and do on.
The also the "it's a huge bargain so I'll buy it in spite of not wanting/needing it" side of things which is great for creating cash flow but coupled with 12 months returns gives a big chunk of time for buyers remorse to set in.
Are they accepting returns at the minute? (seem to think I saw a post up there saying otherwise).
Who arranges shipping if you do return it? (if the answer isn’t them then if it doesn’t get accepted at their end it’s your risk. if it is them then in theory, so long as you’ve proof it was collected you may have recourse further down the line if needed.)
Yes, my return was refunded yesterday (arrived there last Thursday evening).
Just dropped it off at a Evri collection point where they print the label for you and job done.
It’s the ones which have been used/worn particularly I’m thinking of.
Do they not fall foul of any returns policy?
I placed an order for a bike on Monday, order has been processed and it's marked as dispatched.
I'm aware if they go under it could be tricky with warranty but I'd be surprised Nukeproof totally vanish.
Ordered shoes Sunday evening, delivered today. No issues.
It’s the ones which have been used/worn particularly I’m thinking of.
Do they not fall foul of any returns policy?
Up until fairly recently it was no quibble, to the point they almost encouraged returns of warranty stuff as it was quicker than warrantying it.
They willingly accepted used stuff.
breadcrumb
I’m aware if they go under it could be tricky with warranty but I’d be surprised Nukeproof totally vanish.
You know any new owner is unlikely to be obligated to honour the contract between you and the previous owner of the company.
I’m aware if they go under it could be tricky with warranty but I’d be surprised Nukeproof totally vanish.
[guess mode] nukeproof will end up like muddy fox. Even if the retail arm stays that nukeproof USA has all but vanished makes me suspect it'll be gone in its current form. Expensive to develop, expensive to market, wiggle owned in a crowded market and it's going to be difficult to deliver the USP of value without the buying power of Signa behind them. Loss of supplier and reseller faith following this too.
It'll be sold off as a house brand to someone like Evans, halfords, go outdoors or decathlon. [/guess mode]
That. See above
Neil SuperstarComponents
You know any new owner is unlikely to be obligated to honour the contract between you and the previous owner of the company.
True. It's a gamble I'm willing to take. It's a £800 hardtail, with a quick search no real trend of broken frames.
Anymore than that and I wouldn't of been so eager.
Wouldn't HAVE been so eager.
nukeproof will end up like muddy fox
I mean, I remember nukeproof before nukeproof was nukeproof
I mean, I remember nukeproof before nukeproof was nukeproof
You mean when they made hubs that you might have found on a fancy 90s mountain bike before they cracked?
Wouldn’t HAVE been so eager.
🫡
Surely Nukeproof is a viable brand worth picking up by investors, new products recently launched and extra team members this year suggests they were making a profit regardless of bad business practices by the ownership having lots of eggs in one big basket. It would be an absolute travesty if they vanished.
Bigger brands have come and gone, sometimes twice over.
Look at Iron Horse and Saracen. Plenty more where they came from. It's just a label at the end of the day, once this year's run is gone does it really make any difference?
breadcrumb
I’m aware if they go under it could be tricky with warranty but I’d be surprised Nukeproof totally vanish.
______
You know any new owner is unlikely to be obligated to honour the contract between you and the previous owner of the company.
Agree not likely to see a warranty honoured IF Nukeproof ceased to exist in its current form (and this is all still speculation just now).
There is an argument that if you were buying a hardtail (especially) at current discounts you're unlikely to be far out of pocket even if you break one large ish part.
Let's say the frame breaks then you've still got an entire hardtail of parts at a good price.
With an FS the frame is a bigger part of the price and the economics might not be quite as good.
If I was in the market I'd have no qualms on a Scout but would accept I could end up shopping for a new frame a year or two down the line in the pretty unlikely event I cracked it.
Bit of a risk based decision. Cash benefit of a bargain vs. Probability of breaking it and needing to pay to replace some large part with part of the saving you already made.
Surely Nukeproof is a viable brand worth picking up by investors, new products recently launched and extra team members this year suggests they were making a profit regardless of bad business practices by the ownership having lots of eggs in one big basket. It would be an absolute travesty if they vanished.
IF they disappear it wouldn't surprise me. I guess they (and Vitus) would be hard to value as I doubt their non-CRC sales through LBS's make up much of their turnover? So if CRC goes, any buyer would need to start up from scratch with nothing more than some IP and a rolodex of contacts in Taiwan. They'd need:
New offices,
New staff (assuming all but a few are shared with other parts of the business).
New direct to consumer website?
Speaking of 90's bling brands I'd like to see make a comeback, I reckon Woodman would look good on the side of a range of XC/Trail bikes.
is there a responsibility on the previous owners to realize they are getting into a deal with the devil and think about maybe less growth/profit but greater long term stability?
Is this a thinly veiled British Empire / Gaza reference?
I'm sure Nukeproof would be pleased people think it's such a solid brand.
It was only about 10 or 12 years ago they revived the brand name with that first, round-tubed Mega - and they've made some really good (if sometimes flawed) bikes since then.
Personally I'd like to see them successfully restructure CRC/Wiggle and keep Vitus attached, hopefully with Nukeproof as well.
I really don't think their prices were THAT low to be unsustainably undercutting everyone else. At least not until they started the big discounts this year when they were already in trouble.
It was only about 10 or 12 years ago they revived the brand name with that first, round-tubed Mega
They've been making components a while longer than that. Not sure the brand ever disappeared as such but I think crc bought the name about 15-20 years ago and used it as a house brand for bars stems and the like for a number of years before they started doing frames.
I really don’t think their prices were THAT low to be unsustainably undercutting everyone else. At least not until they started the big discounts this year when they were already in trouble.
I seem to recall they were very much a bargain until the merger with wiggle when vitus took that mantle and NP became more of the premium house brand.
Iirc vitus was wiggle's house brand and as a result mostly road focused, NP was crc and mostly mtb. (part of me thinks that's wrong and wiggle's brand vanished but I can't think what it was called if it did)
Speaking of 90’s bling brands I’d like to see make a comeback, I reckon Woodman would look good on the side of a range of XC/Trail bikes.
Were Woodman ever that "bling"? I remember them being pretty lightweight but non-descript parts - Woolly Hat Shop was a big dealer for them 🙂
Woolly Hat Shop was a big deal
Ah, the 90s, we miss you.
Speaking of 90’s bling brands I’d like to see make a comeback, I reckon Woodman would look good on the side of a range of XC/Trail bikes.
Syncros coming back as proper Syncros would be nice. Or Klein as proper Klein with fancy paint done properly. Not that I'd want a Klein but it's good to have pretty things to look at.
Iirc vitus was wiggle’s house brand and as a result mostly road focused, NP was crc and mostly mtb. (part of me thinks that’s wrong and wiggle’s brand vanished but I can’t think what it was called if it did)
Vitus was bought by Chris and Frank from CRC, and was a CRC house brand.
If I remeber correctly CRC own X-Lite too which is a name some might know from 90s bling products.
Were you even a mountain biker in the 90s if your bike didn't sport X-Lite bar ends!! 🤔
Vitus was bought by Chris and Frank from CRC, and was a CRC house brand
You can't recall wiggle's old brand can you? It's bugging me quite a bit now, as these things do.
My thoughts exactly, if the frame were to fail (unlikely) it's only a HT frame, and it would give opportunity for something else at not much £££.
The forks will be swapped for a set of Pikes I have before it turns a wheel, the OE fork will be sold, knocking a few more quid from the purchase cost.
Iirc vitus was wiggle’s house brand and as a result mostly road focused, NP was crc and mostly mtb. (part of me thinks that’s wrong and wiggle’s brand vanished but I can’t think what it was called if it did)
Vitus was bought by Chris and Frank from CRC, and was a CRC house brand.
Verenti was the wiggle equivalent, I had a Rhigos, it was good. I think Vitus having an actual history meant they shoved all of the 'cheaper' own brand stuff under that banner.
Verenti
Thank you!
I still have a saved search on ebay for a 56cm/large Verenti Isolation (the bargain 853 SSCX they were selling off for a daft £300).
Woolly Hat Shop was a big deal
They still exist, mostly selling via ebay.
I get pangs of nostalgia for their wierd / unique / ahead of it's time / overly javascripted website whenever I see their name come up.
They still exist, mostly selling via ebay.
Woolly Hat Shop now trades as www.BikeParts.co.uk
I remember their early website too, nostalgia indeed. The 'thing' I remember clearest from ordering BITD was calling Merlin Cycles with my MBUK paper advert in front of me, and it always being the same bloke who answered the phone with a very cheery "Merlin Cycles!" in a distinctive manner.
If I remeber correctly CRC own X-Lite too which is a name some might know from 90s bling products.
X Lite is now better known as muc-off. Not sure Alex ever sold it on?
If I remeber correctly CRC own X-Lite too which is a name some might know from 90s bling products.
Really?! I thought it just became Muck-off and was quietly retired as a brand name after Rex Trimnell died.
😮
I wanted X-Lite bar-ends so badly when I was a kid, had to make do with Tioga Power Studs.
I'll be back in a day with an amusing bar end related update.
I was more than happy with Onza bar ends. Seem to remember X-lite often being photographed in multiple pieces.
Have bar ends come back for flat-bar gravel yet?
If not, someone should get in there quick and corner the market. Could even be the salvation of Chiggle?
SJS already do a clone of some ergo bar ends, I have a pair and they're ace.
@brant ah well, it's been over 13 years, I'm sure we can wait a bit longer.
I wanted X-Lite bar-ends so badly when I was a kid, had to make do with Tioga Power Studs.
I had some enormous steel ski-bend things from halfords, they were practically wide TT bars.
I’ll be back in a day with an amusing bar end related update.
Moleskin bar ends with brass hardware handmade in Yorkshire?
I’m genuinely surprised they didn’t make a U.K. made boutique brand out of x-lite back when they bought it.
maybe the lure of cheap stuff out of China was too powerful
Shame really
Neil SuperstarComponents
@superstarcomponents, apparently Muc-off took off so well that they never got round to it.
Nice problem to have…
maybe the lure of cheap stuff out of China was too powerful
For the buying public or crc?
I remember X-Lite from the days before I had my own money. Always wanted a Fly stem. Think I bought some of the knurled handlebar plugs from Bike '98 at the NEC or similar.
