benpinnick
Sounds like the german version is similar, just a bit more hands off.
The german version of anything will involve a lot more paperwork, and actual paper forms needing signing and stamping.
They're a funny old mix of very modern and very old school bureaucratic, it's kind of charming until you are actually dealing with the hassle of it
Bit late to this but there are some Euro names I know connected to Signa who are Berlin based.
Probikeshop
fahrrad.de
Bikester
Brugelmann
CRC/Wiggle
I'm hesitant ordering from any of these now and will probably stick with R2 and Bike Discount.
Good riddance if they go as far as I'm concerned.
I had a set of XT M8120 brakes in my basket at £124.99 and £139.99. I removed an item and the page refreshed with the brakes at £169.99 and £154.99. A short chat session and I was told prices do change. Given the poop they are in you would have thought the instructions would be honour all baskets when customers noticed the increase.
I'm not expecting them to hold the basket at that price for days, we're talking 24 hours here.
Marko
Good riddance if they go as far as I’m concerned.
I had a set of XT M8120 brakes in my basket at £124.99 and £139.99. I removed an item and the page refreshed with the brakes at £169.99 and £154.99. A short chat session and I was told prices do change. Given the poop they are in you would have thought the instructions would be honour all baskets when customers noticed the increase.
I’m not expecting them to hold the basket at that price for days, we’re talking 24 hours here.
Yes, they should all lose their jobs. I'm sorry you had to go through this. Overnight pricing changes are something nobody should have to cope with.
The are a few European countries with their own Hotlines entities all with their own structures and dependences waiting to collapse. Hotlines France sells through bricks and mortar shops and supports a domestic enduro team, so that's another crowd that'll be desperately searching for support.
Given the poop they are in you would have thought [s] the instructions would be honour all baskets when customers noticed the increase. [/s] they may be under some legal obligation to try and make enough money to keep the business afloat and not sell at a loss
Ftfy
probably stick with R2
I ordered from them a while back and had no end of issues with chasing a delivery via UPS that eventually has ended in a dispute as they'd damaged the package so much 2 of 3 items were missing, and it came (finally) in a UPS box that wasn't sealed. I got my money back for the missing items - R2 were pretty easy to deal with about that, but it took over a month from start to (sort of) finish , and was constant hassle of waiting, paying import fees, calling UPS to remind them that I'd paid them, chasing R2 to chase UPS, trying to find the package, them ignoring me for ages, and so on and on.
Doubt I'll be doing that again in a hurry, and I still need to re-order the bits that were missing from somewhere
How are shops meant to introduce a price change exactly? Should they start increasing a price 1 pence every 30 minutes until they reach their target in a weeks time?
Your timing was just unfortunate but it's not exactly the end of the world.
Companies House is still showing Wiggle as an active company. I know that this is all only a day old, but I’d have thought that this would have needed to be up to date.
You've not dealt with Companies House much, I assume? No, the records often don't update that quickly.
Wtf is "self administration" anyone? Never come across this (and I've been involved with some companies going into administration before, it invariably involved appointing (outside) administrators).
Wtf is “self administration” anyone? Never come across this (and I’ve been involved with some companies going into administration before, it invariably involved appointing (outside) administrators).
I believe it's the german version of administration with intent to continue trading through it.
Thanks Ben.
They've just put up their Black Friday offers - Wiggle Black Friday Deals 2023 | Wiggle
I was not saying it was wrong to change name, just pointing out that it had happened and thus it was less easy for people who don’t know to find the publicly available information to inform themselves.
No, what you said was:
they changed the company name to make it harder to find…
This is utter bullshit. Other posters above have explained why company names are often changed in insolvency situations, and it's not to make them harder to find. And neither is it true that changing the name makes the company harder to find: you whack the company's old name in Companies House website and it takes you to the company's record under its new name.
This is not the first time you've made wobbly comments about your competitors on here.
benpinnick
Sounds like the german version is similar, just a bit more hands off.
If they have to engage an external administrator, would that make it more Hans on?
Thoughts and prayers for Marko.
They’ve just put up their Black Friday offers – Wiggle Black Friday Deals 2023 | Wiggle
Some of the in-house bikes and frames are looking remarkably good value... If your brave enough to skirt some potnetial warranty issue, a full carbon trail bike frameset with a Fox factory shock for £1400 plus any other discount you might get from BC etc.
How long has this been up? About 2 weeks? then it all goes titsup for CRC
Pair of NP trousers for me and a new seat ordered for mini-DBW #000002's new bike build.
I'm currently building an N+1 hardtail for the coming winter. Comparing prices on parts with other retailers, there is very little that CRC/Wiggle are cheapest for. If cashflow is their biggest issue right now, I expected them to be undercutting everyone, to get cash in asap.
PCA I’m not making statements and accusations like you just have. I was just pointing out the name change makes it harder to find if you were just googling it or similar. That’s actually the reason they do it.
Neil SuperstarComponents
If cashflow is their biggest issue right now, I expected them to be undercutting everyone, to get cash in asap.
I feel like they were doing that a couple of months ago, when there were some crazy deals, and this BF sale is just a pre-planned marketing thing.
Once you go into/decide to go into administration then you stop selling stuff cheap. You wont be able to afford to replace it/get credit for a while, so you need to sell stuff at the best price you think you can get over whatever period it will be for.
<br />honourablegeorgeFull Member<br />benpinnick
Sounds like the german version is similar, just a bit more hands off.<br />The german version of anything will involve a lot more paperwork, and actual paper forms needing signing and stamping.
They’re a funny old mix of very modern and very old school bureaucratic, it’s kind of charming until you are actually dealing with the hassle of it
I'll say. My wife is trying to renew her German passport at the consulate in Cardiff. They will only accept payment via a Postal Order. She had to buy one in the PO yesterday and they had no idea how to do it, had to look it up. She then had to withdraw cash from her card at the PO counter to pay for the postal Order they were selling to her! Madness
Your timing was just unfortunate but it’s not exactly the end of the world.
I was under the impression that it was all about cash flow in a crisis, not profit. They clearly have the item in stock and were selling at a profit at the old price I assume? Hard to believe that they would not give me a discount code to bring my basket back to the old price given the circumstances.
Purchased from Biketart for an extra fiver.
@welshfarmer - LOL, that's exactly the sort of thing
Years back, remember queuing at some tax office to get a form, then having to join another queue when I had filled out the form, got to the top, the clerk stamped the form, and told me to go to a different office halfway across the city to hand in the form. Whole day gone.
Once you go into/decide to go into administration then you stop selling stuff cheap. You wont be able to afford to replace it/get credit for a while, so you need to sell stuff at the best price you think you can get over whatever period it will be for.
But they're not selling anything unique. We are talking about items that can be bought from other retailers at a lower price. Why would anyone want to order from CRC for more money, when there is a risk you may not even receive your purchase?
Seems like a sure-fire way to ensure collapse.
Looks on the website there are some bargins to be had. But do you think consumer faith is there in the long run with worries over returns and warranty problems ..
Looking for a GX 12 speed chain , Wiggle have slashed their price from £30 to £ 29.99 ! 👍£23.99 from Certini that includes postage . 🤔
That’s actually the reason they do it.
I really don't think it is.
Once you go into/decide to go into administration then you stop selling stuff cheap. You wont be able to afford to replace it/get credit for a while, so you need to sell stuff at the best price you think you can get over whatever period it will be for.
Once a company enters administration it's the Administrators who decide what to do and their primary objective is to maximise returns for the creditors.
Normally they try and keep the business running whilst they look for an alternate buyer, if that doesn't seem viable they sell off everything for the most they can, to raise as much money for the creditors.
I was under the impression that it was all about cash flow in a crisis, not profit. They clearly have the item in stock and were selling at a profit at the old price I assume?
Well they weren't, they were losing £200k/day!
The parent company pulled the financial rug from under them that was supporting that, and here we are, prices go up to reflect what it actually costs to sell them.
I expect they were still had a markup on most of the stuff they were/are selling, but that may not have been enough to cover their staffing, tech, marketing costs on a lot of items they've been knocking out cheap.
Once a company enters administration it’s the Administrators who decide what to do and their primary objective is to maximise returns for the creditors.
The German system being used is slightly different it seems... the owners still have some control, at least at first.
I expect they were still had a markup on most of the stuff they were/are selling, but that may not have been enough to cover their staffing, tech, marketing costs on a lot of items they’ve been knocking out cheap.
Still selling it at less than "cost", just with your definition "cost" is articially low.
If I make a million widgets on a million pound machine, with £5 raw material cost, and sell them for £5.50, I'm still selling them at less than cost.
Just that CRC's raw materials are a finished product and it's machine is a website and warehouse / distribution center.
Well they weren’t, they were losing £200k/day!
But not on the item I was about to purchase. It's not like the original price was massively undercutting the competition, so instead of making some profit they've just handed the margin over to Biketart.
How do you know they were making some profit?
Still selling it at less than “cost”, just with your definition “cost” is articially low.
This, but also just plain old below cost. I bought some OE parts last week for £39.99 a pop, £33.25 ex Vat. Those have a price of $68.95 FOB from the factory. So once you paid to import them, 4% duty etc maybe $75 a go. £33.25 is 50% off OE price. Yes CRC probably paid less than I do for them, but not that much less.
If their Bilston warehouse is anything like the Argos RDC I worked at up the road, most stock will have been slung over the back fence by now!
The German system being used is slightly different it seems… the owners still have some control, at least at first.
That's the parent company, Wiggle / CRC is a UK registered company and if/when it enters administration Companies House will assign a UK Administrator to handle the process.
So has anyone ordered anything today and had a confirmation of order or dispatch notice? There's a few bits I wanted to order, I'm not bothered about sending stuff back or warranty so if I know they're still posting then I would make the purchase.
Ordered some things last night and arrived today.
I took a chance in a cheap 105 cassette.
Its down as processing....i paid at about 9am today
Ooh, now down as shipped....
@marko have you ever heard the phrase "you snooze you lose"? You snoozed, you lost, get over it. Would you still expect them to honour the sale if someone had bought the last one whilst it was sitting in your cart for a day or however long you planned to sit on it? There's plenty you can knock them for but that's just a load of entitled nonsense.
Neil is Mr superstar components, it's his company.
I welcome his insights into the cycling business world.
I don't think he's saying anything contentious
Debt is cheaper than equity and stakeholders happy with growth over cash generation leads to stuff like this when the cold wind blows.
The brand can sometimes be the only thing that survives so there's plenty of lifting and shifting and asset moving with suppliers and the tax man left with the problem
I presume you are still discussing the semantics of changing company name? Can you tell me why they do it if its not to make it different to the new Phoenix company?
1) There was no Phoenix company in the Evans administration.
2) You're creeping away from your original claim that "they changed the company name to make it harder to find…".
1) There was no Phoenix company in the Evans administration.
This +1
The term is only truly applicable where the successor entity is under substantially the same control as the insolvent entity.
There was an independent third party buyer in the Evans matter.
Can anyone spread any light on purchases made through PayPal and if there's any recourse similar to Cc's?
Need to send back a bike and obvs getting refunded by wiggle/CRC is slim, but if PayPal is on the hook then it's a no brainer....
I have some returns to make. I am waiting to see how things pan out with actual press releases first. Appreciate that might be frustrating, but I am not confident whats going to happen yet.Just my own view.
They payed £8million. That’s where the small amount of debts paid off came from. It’s all listed in the documents on companies house
More was paid out after the sale though. But anyway, I think we're in agreement about how these things go in general/principle.
I used to like going through the double page mag adverts with all the lists on and phoning up a bloke with a full norn iron accent
In hinsight, they were miles ahead of their time weren't they? Must be 20 years ago I first started buying bike parts - CRC always had what I needed, at the best price, and were doing free next day delivery even way back then.
Haven't used them for years now mind - the stock situation is crap, prices are crap (unless you want size XXXXXXXXXS), postage costs as much as anywhere else
Haven’t used them for years now mind – the stock situation is crap, prices are crap (unless you want size XXXXXXXXXS), postage costs as much as anywhere else
Guess it depends on what sort of stuff you buy. I am still buying lots of stuff from them as they tend to have what I want 80% of the time, it is the best price (with platinum discount) and it gets delivered within 2 or 3 days when picking the free postage options
I will miss it if it goes
Guess it depends on what sort of stuff you buy
My ten pence worth.
I usually know what I want so Ill Google it. Due to cookies etc crc/wiggle usually shows up with a good price so I'll click it. It's then either out of stock or it will have two prices. The cheaper price is either for a really bad colour or a silly size. The one I want, if it's in stock will be more expensive than the competition.
From time to time I'll see something I want. The other day I was trying to bring the basket up to £100 to use a code but couldn't find anything else I wanted.
I had a look last night to see if there was anything I wanted. Looked at shorts, they had 111 variations of shorts but again, when I clicked on ones I liked the cheaper price was either bright red or xxxxl. I gave up in the end. Just couldn't be bothered.
I hope they find some capital or a new buyer and they continue. I wish them well. Like most of us, I've used them a lot over the years but less so recently.
If they do go under it will be interesting to see how the market reacts and how it will change everything. I suspect prices will go up if they are not around anymore as the competition fill in the gaps.
I took a punt and ordered something yesterday afternoon, wiggle dispatch email at 11pm and courier tracking says it's due for delivery tomorrow. On the face of it everything seems to be working... I will report back if it goes pear shaped
People forget administration happens. Stanton did it and seemingly are doing ok now, Planet X did (I think) Evans did etc. Sometimes it is just the restructuring of debt that needs to happen.
Might end up as a different looking business but it'll carry on in some form. Hopefully with a better website and minimal impact on staff and suppliers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
Neil had a log in as "fruit" which he used to promote his brand without declaring it was his brand
Wtf is AstroTurfed?
When a company/organisation creates a load of seemingly innocent "supporters" (or customers or whatever) that pop up "unsolicited" to support whatever the company says.
So a company could post something under their own legitimate name to publicise themselves then change accounts and start posting favourable "reviews" or supportive comments about the company posing as "innocent buyers".
"Ooh yes, I bought from this company and they are amazing!"
Happens a lot on Twitter too. Bots mostly on there. In real life if it's one person, the posting style and phrasing normally outs them eventually.
I dont like to be critical, but I do find it quite bizzare that STW are not covering this. People dont want to be gateposted to ft.com etc. Its one of the biggest UK companies and brands so being dismisive and zero coverage seems a very odd editorial choice. If this isnt news worthy then what is?
The website really is terrible, wife is considering a new 650b gravel bike.
I filter by "in stock"
I filter by "small"
I filter by "S"
I filter by "extra small"
I filter by "XS"
I get about 25 results.
There's just 6 actual bikes that fit what I'm after & I need to scroll and scroll to see if any are 650 because that's not a filter.
Wtf is AstroTurfed?
crazy-legs
When a company/organisation creates a load of seemingly innocent “supporters” (or customers or whatever) that pop up “unsolicited” to support whatever the company says.
Wow, that is a great point @crazy-legs and very reliable. Actually a lot of my friends say that @crazy-legs makes lots of great points, and the prices and delivery are very good too. I think I am going to sign up for the @crazy-legs news letter, it has weekly discount codes. There's even a giveaway this week on the @crazy-legs newsletter! 🌟 🤩 ⭐
suspendedanimation
I dont like to be critical, but I do find it quite bizzare that STW are not covering this.
It's literally on the front page of the website.
@suspendedanimation There is a story on this. The ‘this’ I pointed to the FT on is the Benko/signa holdings wider story. That’s just beyond my field.
This rumours thread started before the news story, which is here and has been widely shared and cited (DJ Brandt even included it in his Instagram post):
This is all getting a bit underwhelming. Would be nice to stay on topic (thank you stwhannah).
The price sensitivity of stuff sold online is an issue, but I've started happily paying a bit more from companies I 'trust' and that included Chiggle. If they said they had it in stock, they genuinely had it in stock and delivery times were reliable as a result.
Theres a lot of online bike retailers who are selling 'in stock at our supplier' which they don't actually have a stock info link to. So the mudguards I had to cancel recently as 'delivered in 7 working days' became 6 weeks when the order was confirmed (clearly it WASNT in stock at their supplier after all).
I needed a few bits for my bike, ordered yesterday afternoon and should be turning up this afternoon. If they don't turn up I know it won't be Wiggles fault it will be the inconsistent Saturday DPD driver we have around here.
For the poster asking about returning a bike (and other stuff) my personal approach would be this:
If I paid on cc or PayPal within their time limit (xx days I think but it was summarised nicely on the news thread) and if the carrier collecting it is wiggle's, I'd arrange the return ensure I get a receipt for collection, take a photo of it being collected, and send it.
Once the carrier has it if wiggle organised and paid for carriage it is their problem, then if wiggle becomes a problem it's the cc or pp's risk.
If either of those caveats isn't true at this point I would not be sending. The risk of them not being there when it gets delivered exists. The risk of it but being receipted etc exists and it all becomes too much of a gamble in my opinion .
To clarify this is not advice, it is my personal opinion. It is a gamble either way and you need to decide your appetite for that risk.
Section 75 covered by droplinked in the comments here:
