I’ve got a few Wiggle orders that I wanted to return: total value over the 4 orders is about £800.
Begs the question of how it why but, that aside...
If I were you no, not yet. I'd hang on until this time next week at least.
The withdrawal of the equity agreement will mean some major restructuring at the least. That could mean anything eg. Bikester goes but the rest the group is floated off the back of that though to the whole group isn't there by Monday.
If you don't return the stuff you can at least sell it. If you return it and they go pop you may never see it or the money again.
(FWIW suspect their stupidly generous returns policy and warranty liability won't have helped here)
And to think, I queried an issue yesterday, and the spare part to rectify said issue was sent out to me same day, CRC customer service can be very good. Would be sad to see them go, especially as I have a warranty interest….
Ordered forks and tyres yesterday, arrived this morning. That's the last order I'll make until things are a bit clearer!
Looks like my 'your order has been despatched' email which came through this morning could have been good timing then!
Hmm they've just got the E-Mythique in stock in a couple of the models, weren't yesterday....must resist
I’ll be sad if it goes. I’ve used them lots over the years, great shipping and returns policy for sizing and choosing kit over the years of three growing children. Never had any issues with customer service.<br /><br />
Seems like another victim of a false and hyped market during the pandemic, and now reality bites.
Im going to guess that any purchases made now, with CC or PayPal, would be protected anyway?
Hmm they’ve just got the E-Mythique in stock in a couple of the models, weren’t yesterday….must resist
I wish I hadn't read this comment. Now I MUST RESIST TOO!
Im going to guess that any purchases made now, with CC or PayPal, would be protected anyway?
Assuming you tick the relevant boxes in terms of item costs etc yes.
Seems like another victim of a false and hyped market during the pandemic, and now reality bites.
IMHO (and it really is opinion only) whilst the pandemic won't have helped it's likely what tipped everything not the main cause. The main problem is people won't pay for stuff*.
There's a constant race to be cheapest, margins are squeezed to razor thin because if Google says you're 2p more expensive than the next shop you don't get the order. That needs huge turnover to keep it viable.
The pandemic meant supplies were very difficult to maintain which meant maintaining that turnover was very difficult. Post pandemic the supplies have started to recover, in some instances meaning huge glutts of stock but, if your business relies on having tens of thousands of items to sell at cost +1% that's not terrible so long as there's a market...
...But, everyone is suddenly tightening their belts, discretionary spend has tanked and the market for moderately expensive toys with it.
Now they're left with huge overstock and no market to sell it to with and a history of tiny margins on huge turnover meaning they have no buffer, need external liquidity which was fine when you could stick £150m in to pay suppliers knowing its coming back over the next x months. Now there's no visible prospect of repayment so that external liquidity is pulled and no buffer means the company can't service it's day to day bills without huge borrowing. Interest rates from the open market are higher than their margins will allow them to swallow and sales are tanking so even if they could afford to borrow, few people want to lend.
*that's a longer conversation and not really relevant to this thread.
The main problem is people won’t pay for stuff*.
Mainly because Chiggle, in an effort to dominate the market and drive competitors out of business, were subsidising prices, and thus making them artificially low.
Mainly because Chiggle, in an effort to dominate the market and drive competitors out of business, were subsidising prices, and thus making them artificially low.
Nah, it's not just a "bike" problem and it's a lot older than chiggle but...
*that’s a longer conversation and not really relevant to this thread.
😉
CRC customer services have just been very helpful locating & sending the keys which were missing from my recent ebike purchase
Just ordered some pedals to go with it, hopefully they arrive as they're half the price of anywhere else
Wiggle/CRC entering self administration
Source? This comment might look very out of date very quickly but couldn’t see any news anywhere.
Mark Sutton is well connected, I'll be suprised if he's wrong.
Wow, it could really happen.
It's a well written article - I thought these points were interesting:
"A contributory factor to the loss of a competitive edge and thus profitability could be the moving of the business out of Northern Ireland where it would have enjoyed cut ties from the Brexit deal that effects a business based in England."
I hadn't immediately thought of the impact of CRC leaving NI.
And
"Needless to say, as the bike industry’s largest online platform, the ripple effects of any wind down of the business will touch just about every business in the supply chain, if not directly, then as a consequence of subsequent stock sells offs."
A shame
Why did they leave NI?
Did Royal Mail / other couriers offer them a discount to relocate to Birmingham?
If you’ve got returns, hang onto them as there’s a chance of them having some value whereas send the stuff back and you’ll be added to the growing list of unsecured creditors who may at some point in the future get something like a penny for every pound owed.
Lack of parent company guarantees probably means that many suppliers will now demand cash-up-front as the impending fire-sale will probably see a few losing their shirts.
Although they’ve announced self-liquidation I expect to see if they can find new backers, I doubt anyone in their right mind would want to pick up the tab for their debts when they can wait a while for the pending fire-sale of assets and stock.
If/when the bankruptcy sale starts, the market is going to be flooded with cheap stuff which makes life harder for other distributors and retailers as demand dries up and interest rates stay high.
Likewise, I won’t be placing any orders either as there’s a high probability they’ll take your money but the goods might not turn up.
Administration is not the same as liquidation. They will be trying to sell the business or find new backers as a going concern, rather than conceding defeat, shuttering it and just liquidating all the assets.
So it will be business as usual until they have exhausted all possibilities to keep things going.
The administration thing is more of a problem to other businesses who haven't been paid and might have been trying legal routes to get their money, or to get the company wound up, as it stops those efforts in their tracks for now.
@solarider it was from a good source who I’d rather not name. I’m not one to just make stuff up.
hatter
I imagine the cost savings of moving everything to one massive warehouse that was located slap bang in the middle of the UK so better logistically.
Yeah, was probably the right thing to do, and then after Brexit, it's a huge advantage lost.
I ordered something yesterday and just got a dispatch note today. I will order something from them again, but will just make sure it is on a CC. Companies have gone bust on me before and CC has always paid up. Any non-wiggle branded stuff will have a manufacturer warranty valid whatever their circumstances.
That current 30 day vitus trial thing could work out great for some if they go bust shortly. Nowhere to send bike back to.
Surely you have to pay up front?
They're private equity funded aint they,
So hugely exposed with a loan? Thats what happens isn't it?
Surely you have to pay up front?
And even if you don't, don't expect the administrator to just shrug the debt off
That current 30 day vitus trial thing could work out great for some if they go bust shortly. Nowhere to send bike back to.
It was the first deal of its type I’d heard of in almost 3 decades of purchasing stuff online or mail order… There are cynical people out there that might suggest they were never going to be able to honour the deal!
Fingers crossed for all involved. Can’t be easy times for anyone who is potentially losing their job, their livelihood etc. possibly if they do go to the wall…
Sad news. Hopefully the good bits will remain after the inevitable. Nukeproof were really on a roll recently.
Hate to think what they will do to sponsored/ supported athletes. Hard times
Well that happened quicker than expected.
nukeproof was on a roll, not surprisingly with the huge marketing spend and giving the stuff away at taiwan manufacturing cost🤣 whoda thought
while I’m glad to see VC funds get utterly shafted after their greed powered forecasts blew up in their faces. There are real people who have been harmed by this who I’m sad for. The staff, the supply chain around them but most grimly their suppliers who are going to get utterly screwed. I think this is going to kill off several distributors as a knock on effect.
we will only know when the administration report is published but I remember Evans taking down I think £70 million in debts to suppliers who won’t see a penny for it. That destroys other businesses….
I’ll say again, there won’t be a liquidation sale. It will get piled on pallets and shifted in bulk via auction. Will end up all over Europe.
grim times ahead but on the other hand good news for real businesses struggling against funny money VC funded greed zombies
Neil SuperstarComponents
That current 30 day vitus trial thing could work out great for some if they go bust shortly. Nowhere to send bike back to.
It was the first deal of its type I’d heard of in almost 3 decades of purchasing stuff online or mail order… There are cynical people out there that might suggest they were never going to be able to honour the deal!
It's not a free bike, it's just a 30 day no-quibble refund.
And not unheard of, Cotic for one example have almost exactly the same offer.
I remember Evans taking down I think £70 million in debts to suppliers who won’t see a penny for it.
OT but not what I remember, I was there at the time.
Bikester(same group) website states we can’t process returns for the moment
Unfortunately I have some handlebars currently on the way back to wiggle. Fortunately 'only' £50 and part of larger order I paid for on CC but still potential unnecessary faff. Sorry for all those that may lose more or their jobs.
Road cc reporting rumours of a Mike Ashley buyout (strip out let’s face it)
hmmm - just remembered I bought my Ragley trig on 12 months paypal interest free finance. I wonder if it will continue as is, a demand for the outstanding or a right off.
Road cc reporting rumours of a Mike Ashley buyout (strip out let’s face it)
Which would really suck for all I'd imagine.
hmmm – just remembered I bought my Ragley trig on 12 months paypal interest free finance. I wonder if it will continue as is, a demand for the outstanding or a right off.
CRC will have got the money the next day. Afraid you will have to pay it! It works like a credit card so it's very hands off for the shop.
Just a quick Google suggests also Trek, Ribble, Tifossi, and Rutland cycles offer it on the whole range.
Jameso. Just checked the Evans administration files. It was £87 million. They payed out £8 million to preferred creditors ie their bank
they changed the company name to make it harder to find…..
F. W. E. REALISATIONS LIMITED
Company number <strong style="font-family: inherit; border: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit;">02784079
Specialised and trek were taken for around 3 million each. Look at the public documents online for the full list
the crc documentation is going to make interesting reading
Neil SuperstarComponents
Do those documents say how much SD paid those creditors once they took on Evans? RE the 'not a penny' bit of your post.
Do those documents say how much SD paid those creditors once they took on Evans? RE the ‘not a penny’ bit of your post.
Are you saying it was a penny? 😉
SD will have paid the bare minimum in good will to keep the suppliers on board but I would be very surprised if that was close to zero.
The thing is, depending on how the business was structured it could very easily have cost the folks owning Evans very little indeed allowing them to walk away and do the same again with little more than a shrug.
Regardless though. The ripples from this will actually be pretty big waves and run a long way.
I've bought loads from CRC / Wiggle over the years. More recently I've not bought much but that's been a general trend from me to not buy lots of stuff I don't need. I've not really moved to other retailers.
In the last year I've bought a cheap trisuit and other bits of tri gear, bib shorts and tops etc. The dhb stuff is really good value IMO.
I for one will really miss these companies if they go under.
The thing is, depending on how the business was structured it could very easily have cost the folks owning Evans very little indeed allowing them to walk away and do the same again with little more than a shrug.
This is true. Business and tax law seems an ass to me.
They payed £8million. That’s where the small amount of debts paid off came from. It’s all listed in the documents on companies house
SD didn’t do anything wrong, they bid what they were willing to offer and the best offer wins. It’s not their debt but the failed companies. The suppliers who offered credit terms are who got shafted
now the bit which annoys me is these big companies demand credit terms not ask. So their suppliers are effectively bankrolling the retailers with their own money. Often it’s bully boy tactics. See several of the big bike makers retrospectively demanding longer credit terms ie Giant a few months back.
I wonder how much tax is due which our government services won’t see….
we will find out in the end
Neil SuperstarComponents
Started to see murmurings of Nukeproof dropping their athletes & closing its own international distribution arms.
That'd be a terrible shame for the riders... some of them have done exceptionally well lately and with more and more companies throwing it all in, it'll be a lot harder for them to get rides for 2024.
they changed the company name to make it harder to find…
Any evidence for this allegation of misconduct?
Nukeproof USA basically no longer exists. All staff and contractors let go, and right now they don’t even know if they’re going to get paid. Several freelancers/contractors who have already completed work also not getting paid. Individuals are losing their livelihoods. It’s all very sad. And it’s some pretty dark reading once you get into the whole Signa holdings/Benko/real estate wormhole.
Fingers crossed for better news for the UK folks.
Any evidence for this allegation of misconduct?
No misconduct, but it's common to change the holding companies name to something different to disassociate yourselves from the indebted business. Common sense really.
Nukeproof USA basically no longer exists. All staff and contractors let go, and right now they don’t even know if they’re going to get paid. Several freelancers/contractors who have already completed work also not getting paid. Individuals are losing their livelihoods. It’s all very sad.
TBH its pretty normal for the US, their labour market is a lot more fluid than ours, other than the unionized trades. Those people will have jobs again soon enough (I hope!). Maybe not in the bike industry though, that has a way to go before hiring is a thing again.
So when are you going to get rid of the CRC strap on the top of the forum Hannah? I guess it pretty clear, they won't be paying out....
Shoot me, but the sponsored riders are not at the top of my list of folk I feel sorry for. It's the big stsndard employees of the Signs companies or their suppliers and the owners of the smaller supplier companies possible owed business closing amounts.
HobNob
Started to see murmurings of Nukeproof dropping their athletes & closing its own international distribution arms.
Ronan Dunne now lists himself as "Factory rider for" on Instagram, Nukeproof no longer mentioned
And it’s some pretty dark reading once you get into the whole Signa holdings/Benko/real estate wormhole.
Any chances of getting an article on it?
I've just received a CRC email for their latest offers, some items with a black Friday heading on, so are they still trading or what.
I know it was mentioned earlier, but this must sting a bit for the STW crew. Hope they paid in advance.
@soundninjauk probably not! I’m on holiday today! And it’s not bike stuff - it’s German real estate, banking rules, company restructuring and sales. For me it would be like taking on a whole research and learning project, and the chances of me then turning that into something accurate and non lawsuit inducing enough to publish…
You could start with the FT: https://www.ft.com/stream/26102ab4-b139-45e4-b413-7b3bc7a4ee5f
so are they still trading or what
Yes. They're in (self administered however that works?!) administration so they can try to trade out of the hole in theory
Ronan Dunne now lists himself as “Factory rider for” on Instagram, Nukeproof no longer mentioned
Gutted for him. Best ever(?) result one month, next month team goes pop.
Yes. They’re in (self administered however that works?!) administration so they can try to trade out of the hole in theory
Administration will still be handled by the appointed adminstrators AFAIK, it's the going in thats self-done. You can be forced/compelled, or choose to go into administration.
We should be clear though, once a company enters administration all bets are off for buying stuff until the administrator says so. It's entirely legal for them to take your money and not supply the goods in the interim period, or rather its entirely legal to do so if you they did otherwise intend to ship the goods at the time of taking the order (otherwise thats just good old fraud). Only once the administrator decides its in the best interest of the creditors to the business to continue trading (and declares as such) can you get any level of guarantee your order will be serviced. If you order something and it turns out that the administrator decides the following day not to continue trading and your order hasn't yet shipped, into the unsecured debtors list you go.
No misconduct, but it’s common to change the holding companies name to something different to disassociate yourselves from the indebted business. Common sense really.
Agreed and it's also common to free up the name as a condition of the sale (in this case the business name was sold as disclosed in the SIP16 statement appended to the Proposals at Companies House) as you cannot have two companies with the same name at the same time registered at Companies House.
That particular format is particularly common for insolvency transactions because it's non contentious, consistent across a large part of the industry and unlikely to be blocked at Companies House on a change of name registration.
[Company number] Limited is another.
Important to highlight that creditors (i.e. those who are owed money and have an economic interest in the outcome rather than "academic") will have been informed of this during the administration. There is no "hiding" going on. There are specific rules for insolvency about disclosing former names in certain documents.
Search for Evans Cycles on Companies House and it comes up with previous name and in administration in the first 10 company results.
I was not saying it was wrong to change name, just pointing out that it had happened and thus it was less easy for people who don’t know to find the publicly available information to inform themselves.
there’s alot of people saying things like “it’s a sound business” with literally nothing to back it up. I just base my opinions on the public facts. Don’t believe the marketing hype. As buffet says Only when the tide goes out do you learn who has been swimming naked
unfortunately accounts are always out of date by 12-24 months on reality.
Neil SuperstarComponents
Administration will still be handled by the appointed adminstrators AFAIK, it’s the going in thats self-done. You can be forced/compelled, or choose to go into administration.
It's a long long way from my area of expertise but AFAIK the current directors do the administration, they're to some extent protected from creditors but unlike [not self] administration the company is still run by the same people, not an insolvency practitioner, at least until such point as things get worse.
I don't think it's the same as voluntary administration but, my bit of googling only turns up details from Germany. I wonder if it's [edit for clarity: just] Signa sports rather than wiggle crc that have gone into self administration? [and somehow wiggle crc are not in administration]
I placed an order yesterday and got postage confirmation this morning so it doesn't look like it's quite at the "take your money and run" stage yet *cough*.
I'd not have bothered but a part I need came down to a price I could afford. Glad I didn't also order some kneepads as they're an almost certain "try on and return" item, but operations seem to be normal for now.
I wanted one of them vitus ebikes but I'm now holding off ordering trying to understand if they are likely to sell-off cheaper on Sports Direct in a few months 🙂
Yeah, I guess the good thing is that result hopefully wins him a new sponsor quickly
Hopefully, but next year is looking more and more like a game of musical chairs where all the chairs except one get taken away when the music stops.
I wonder if it’s [edit: just] Signa sports rather than wiggle crc that have gone into self administration?
Companies House is still showing Wiggle as an active company. I know that this is all only a day old, but I'd have thought that this would have needed to be up to date.
It’s a long long way from my area of expertise but AFAIK the current directors do the administration, they’re to some extent protected from creditors but unlike [not self] administration the company is still run by the same people, not an insolvency practitioner, at least until such point as things get worse.
During a regular administration the administrators are only around for a few weeks AFAIK if the company is looking to restructure its way out. Once a plan is drawn up and agreed, the regular directors are the ones to see it through. Sounds like the german version is similar, just a bit more hands off.
so are they still trading or what.
Yeah, these things have a habit of just slowly grinding along, until either one of two things happen.
1. They grind their way out of the hole they've created, move some deckchairs, and pretty much just rumble on,
or
2. it all comes crashing down around their ears very rapidly in a sudden rush
Well this sucks. Have a mis-sized Vitus I need to return, paid for with PayPal.
What's the best course of action?
I guess there are other* share holders in wiggle crc for exactly this purpose, rather than it being wholly owned by Signa?
So they're protected to some extent from the legal status of signa if not from the fall out of it, so I'm theory wiggle crc could be a going concern despite SSU going pop.
*who I'd assume are other Signa shareholders but holding just enough shares either privately or through another holding company to keep their bank accounts away from any potential damage they cause.
Well this sucks. Have a mis-sized Vitus I need to return, paid for with PayPal.
What’s the best course of action?
Facebook marketplace? No that's never the best course of action, even if it's the only course of action.
@stwhannah yeah fair enough! Thanks for the starting point, I shall Do My Own Research.
I shall Do My Own Research.
Do come back and tell us what exciting things you have learned. Especially if most of your research is done via youtube videos:)
Do come back and tell us what exciting things you have learned. Especially if most of your research is done via youtube videos:)
I've been at it 8 minutes and what I've gathered so far is that somehow it's all the fault of covid vaccines.
