Old news but just noticed the £20k debt to Haribo
Guess there's no such thing as free sweeties then
Still bringing new products out that must have been in development long before admin.
Just spotted neil from superstar's comments a while back about competing with AliExpress...
"AliExpress etc is very interesting. I’ll be straight up it’s taken a huge chunk of our small item sales where people are only interested in price not quality"
I've bought a few items from Chinese sources such as lights but wouldn't trust them on safety critical components or wear and tear items like chainrings or chains. A brand needs to build trust over the quality/ durability of it's components, then a higher price can be justified over cheap imports.
I've been doing the post Xmas bike parts shopping, might as well completely decimate the bank account and we all need some retail therapy this time of year - Been buying bits from the usual online retailers - merlin, CRC, woolly hat shop, smaller bike shops with online parts stores, eBay and AliExpress.
Wanted to upgrade the crappy seat clamp on one of my bikes, wanting something quality and good value, maybe titanium, considered pretty much every seat clamp on AliExpress as well as the stores, Hope etc, ended up getting the £11.99 Alu job from superstar as they look nice in the pics. Couldn't really justify £50 for Ti and frame's a weird size but might do one day in a moment of madness/beer driven online shopping.
Haven't got round to seeing how good the clamp works but it's very well finished and a classy design. Reckon superstar could be making Thomson quality stems given how nice these look. I guess some customers just want to bling their bikes up and go AliExpress as they're skint... others just want to replace worn parts like rings, and upgrade the cheap contact points and small parts that came from the factory
My point is I think British manufacturers can compete with China but your brand needs a perception of durability and quality - aftermarket chain rings are an obvious candidate where we want decent wear, weight and price tradeoffs (as well as availability of older standards for those of us keeping retro bikes going), and after considering various brands inc middleburn, truvativ hope , that guy on the Welsh border,TA Specialities, Cranx etc, I ended up getting 5 Shimano rings - so I think there could be opportunities for British manufacturers- if superstar were knocking out Thomson level stems at superstar prices word would get around and they'd fly off the shelves.
I’ve bought a few items from Chinese sources such as lights but wouldn’t trust them on safety critical components or wear and tear items like chainrings or chains.
I'd much rather have to bin a skippy AliExpress chain than have a dodgy AliExpress Li-Ion battery/charger burn my house down.
I’ve bought a few items from Chinese sources such as lights but wouldn’t trust them on safety critical components or wear and tear items like chainrings or chains
Interesting take - lights are the last thing I'd buy from China. I'd rather have a chainring wear out too fast than my house burn down...
EDIT: #jinx! Popular opinion clearly...
😀
Again people are jumping on the china quality bandwagon without thinking .your mobile phone you plug in every night is made in china as is your TV .Samsung lg batteries are some of the highest quality and are made in china .
Yes there's poor quality around but how many of you had Christmas lights on your tree now that's more risky than any of the above .
I’d much rather have to bin a skippy AliExpress chain than have a dodgy AliExpress Li-Ion battery/charger burn my house down.
Which is why I bought a front light with no battery from Banggood for £22, sourced 2 genuine Panasonic 21700 batteries from a reputable UK source, and charge with the Xtar Li charger I've had for a couple of years, also bought from a reputable UK source
Again people are jumping on the china quality bandwagon without thinking .your mobile phone you plug in every night is made in china as is your TV .Samsung lg batteries are some of the highest quality and are made in china .
Well duh. But I am going to hazard a guess that Samsung/LG have slightly more rigorous QC than a BEROCK XP18 60,000 lumen light from Ali for £16.99 delivered. I might be wrong though, in which case I'll be missing out on some sweet sweet light bargains. A tradeoff I'm willing to take.
Which is why I bought a front light with no battery from Banggood for £22, sourced 2 genuine Panasonic 21700 batteries from a reputable UK source, and charge with the Xtar Li charger I’ve had for a couple of years, also bought from a reputable UK source
Gold star for you!
if superstar were knocking out Thomson level stems at superstar prices word would get around and they’d fly off the shelves.
If they got round to actually making Shimano DM chainrings, they'd make a few bob there too IMO.
I had a direct from china torch set itself on fire whilst charging, luckily I was out in the garden and noticed the horrible smell of burning plastic before it go too bad. Made a mess of the worktop. Anything that is non uk I charge in a metal box or fireproof sleeve now, as it was a close call
A bit OT but does anyone buy Thompson stems anymore or care about their products that haven't been updated for what seems like 20 years, are they really still the benchmark, I don't see them on any bikes anymore, especially those under 40 yrs old.
As for SS making 'Thompson' level stems or Shimano rings - like there are a shortage of either for acceptable prices now from non Alibaba sources? - The market is absolutely teeming with parts and manufacturers now vs when SS started. SS may be very slightly cheaper in some places but is it a big enough margin to really matter to anyone?
E.g. - SS rings are £35 - everyone elses are £40-£50.00 - does £5.00 really matter, especially as again the competition do seem like a 'nicer' product.
This is one of the reasons hopefully Nukeproof survive - most of their parts are nice enough / have modern design and are pretty much 'SS' prices too, expecially as they are almost always on sale.
I wouldn't buy anything from Alibaba really, zero resale value, zero chance of warranty, support or ability to return and absolutely no help for the bike industry we all claim to want to support.
Thomson certainly used to be "aspirational" but were they ever really any better than the competition? The seatposts were notoriously under-sized too.
I do have a set of their Titanium bars on one of my bikes - bought because I liked the backsweep (they were bought off the STW Classifieds).
there are a shortage of either for acceptable prices now from non Alibaba sources?
Yes, there's a specific shortage of reasonably priced Shimano DM narrow-wide rings. Particularly in 28t.
Still was last time I looked anyway.
Yeah Thomson's time has probably passed, I just mention them as their level of quality was seen as a yardstick.
And yeah there are loads of alternatives for rings out there, just not in the antiquated sizes I need (I'm still sure 1-by is a fad I can safely ignore) and yeah, no point just churning out more cheap stuff like everyone else, but if a manufacturer could innovate with materials to get durability up, weight down and offer a higher quality product I think they would sell. At least I'd be a potential customer for what that's worth!
You might be a little out of date there then.
You can get shimano from alutech, garburak, unite, works, burgtec and others.
A quick google shows burgtec have them in 28t and probably many others too, sure the Burgtec isn’t £35 but you can get them for about £45.00.
The problem isn't that things made in China are bad. I think the problem is that certain unscrupulous people are subverting the usual quality process and flogging crap - either knock-offs or quality rejects - and those things happen to be made in and/or sold from China. For no other reason than the factories that make the good stuff are in China, and people might be making money on the side cutting corners or not closing the doors of those lorries properly when they take the rejects away.
I must admit that I have bought a few lights of Aliexpress on the recommendations of people on here and have been happy with the quality of goods. As Big-Bud says, nearly everything we buy now is made in China. I guess the main thing is to realise that some retailers may not have the same QC standards as some of the big manufactures.
My dad works and lives in China and consults for a few of the big manufactures. Tesla is one. He says there is a huge issue with people stealing stuff and selling on. We are not talking small amounts either and some are so regular/large that they suspect that the sub contractors themselves are behind it.
Copying things is another issue. When I was there I spotted a dealership selling what I thought were Land Rover Evoques but turns out they were almost an exact copy but with a Chinese name.
I also saw lots of really small practical EV's at reasonable prices. I think they are way ahead on that sort of thing. Small eMotorbikes/mopeds were also very popular,
I find what is said above interesting, a lot of the “quality” decisions are made based on perception not reality. The way you change people’s perception is marketing (let’s be realistic pretty much all the bike media’s claims of journalism is in reality paid PR), pretty much all of it is bu£&@hit. Can you believe an article by a company who’s major revenue stream is paid for by said brand they are apparently critiquing?
I’ve made my feelings clear in the past on this. I can’t be bothered bribing companies to promote my stuff any more and stick to word of mouth. Sure I’ll sell less but I’ve got other stuff which I’m interested in.
as for value proposition sure you can buy a chainring for £7 on AliExpress, good for you. But bear in mind their government subsidises the shipping so they pay less to fly it around the world for less than half what I pay to post it U.K. to U.K. then throw in it’s exporting our cash so no U.K. jobs and no U.K. tax. Electric run on majority coal, dubious worker and environmental protection. Make your choice, but don’t tell me your eco friendly etc
as for if Superstar rings are lower quality than brand xxx. Well you just got suckered in by marketing… but if it makes you happy go for it. <br /><br />I know money is tight so hopefully some people value the parts I make. Hopefully all the corporate destruction machines are getting their comeuppance finally and 2024 will be a good year for the little guys out there for once
people have commented that I’m sometimes negative about selling bike parts. Well some days I think I should just Jack it in and just go get an easy better paid job at one of the F1 teams who are desperate for machinists. (I make parts for them already…) Then take every evening and weekend and spend it focusing on my family and not people bickering about something they don’t know about on the internet.
either accept there’s a lot more to your purchase than a cheap price or accept that you are choosing to be ignorant.
Neil SuperstarComponents.
A quick google shows burgtec have them in 28t and probably many others too, sure the Burgtec isn’t £35 but you can get them for about £45.00.
This is exactly my point though, I had to buy a Burgtec last year but I prefer to pay £30 or whatever when Superstar are doing a promo.
And I find their rings last better than most brands anyway, including Burgtec.
Another misconception is lorries of QC rejects. Any Chinese factory is on such a small margin they can’t make any more than a fraction of reject parts. All the cheap junk is made as cheaply as possible specifically, it’s how they have stores full of stock.
why do they do this? One single reason, customers buy it and demand it.
oh and I’m in process of making shimano rings. So hopefully I can sort demand for than in spring.
neil SuperstarComponents
Just checked and Works have them in 28T too for £40, blackspire for sub £40 too, will be many others (making out there is some kind of drought was a little off the ball don't we think?) - but yea if you are super tight / frugal / willing to wait then they are about £24.00 when a SS promo is on - for a ring that is Alibaba pricing.
Neil - I am amazed you can make a worthwhile profit on these at that price - From my brief experience at work with aluminium pricing I bet they cost you a tenner to make all in with anodising and stuff, couple of quid to post and a few quid to the VAT man - About a fiver profit left in it for you?
Used to love Thomson kit, it was really well made and nice to own. Strong and light so just the job. Still have a dropper and it still feels premium compared to the Reverb’s, Fox or Brand X posts I’ve had.
Don’t see it for sale anymore. I assume the switch to dropper posts and stubby stems kind of spoiled their market?
for a ring that is Alibaba pricing
It's not even close. Direct mount Shimano compatible rings delivered are ~£8 each. They last well enough to not need replacing before a chain and are cheap enough to swap with a chain. They're hardly a complicated product and the actual function is similar to a Wolf tooth one I bought years ago.
The only way I can do the price is I make lots at once. Years back I was making 3-400 rings a day with one guy on 3 machines. I bought the metal 5000kg at a time direct from the mill. Fast machines and good tooling plus the big machine had a pallet changer so it never stopped for the whole shift. <br /><br />
right now electric is crippling at nearly ten times what asia pays. Anodising is silly, I’m giving up on small parts when minimum per part went from 10p to 35p. Literally made it pointless to sell chainring bolts overnight even though I’ve got tens of thousands sat machined on the shelf. <br /><br />metal went silly but is getting back to normal. Availability is still rubbish. Rent rates waste etc all massive, packaging is bonkers. I bet people didn’t realise that the wheel boxes we used to use cost £4.50 each when I bought 1000 at a time filling a 7.5 ton lorry. Straight in the bin without a thought probably
postage has skyrocketed same with everything else, yet my prices haven’t changed much. Couriers I think are going to rocket soon with wages and costs up.
I probably should put my prices up. Realistically once this blip of bankruptcy stock dumping is over I’m certain everyone will go back to 10% discounts max and RRPs will all go up 20-30% to reflect reality. Prepare to pay alot more soon!
neil SuperstarComponents
Oh and I have bought loads of the cheap rings over the years and other stuff to compare designs and spec. Once I’m done with them I send them to the recycling company and get them to zap them with the niton gun. It’s a X-ray spectrometer which tells you exactly the alloy composition they are made from.
so far not one has been the 7075 they claimed they are made from. All just generic soft 6000 series
so as expected they look like a chainring but aren’t what they claim they are. But that fools enough people and normal punters don’t have access to check what they are getting.
Neil SuperstarComponents
I would rather give my £20-30 extra to Neil or the other UK guys for a chainring than send any money to alibaba for one.
As I say, don’t comment on a thread that it’s a shame when another company goes under because you have saved a few quid buying alibaba stuff because ‘it’s not a complicated part’.
the wheel boxes we used to use cost £4.50 each when I bought 1000 at a time
Lovely things those. Not surprised they were so expensive!
some days I think I should just Jack it in and just go get an easy better paid job at...
I understand there's a ready market for On/Off switches for cockpit voice recorders. Might be worth looking into.
News have just came through that their flagship store in Belfast is closing down. This may not impact many here but it is a major blow for regular users that myself and, more importantly, the scores of employees who will lose their jobs.
@Donncha, I posted about that earlier. It didn't get much interest sadly
road cc have a story on it
https://road.cc/content/news/chain-reaction-cycles-closing-flagship-belfast-store-306171
After this thread we should all make it a quest to look on Superstar Components first before buying stuff and buy some of theirs even if a little more expensive
Apologies jonnyboi
I've got a request for Superstarcomponents Neil, could you make the DM Shimano rings with similar aesthetics of Works or Garbaruk rather than the butt ugly Burgtec, oh and don't stop at 32t like Works do, a 34t option would be nice. Cheers.
A teaser of what they're gonna look like would peak a lot of interest.
Probably will look like our existing raceface ones in all those sizes but I copy paste a different spline in….
I’ll probably do 26-40 tooth options but 80% will be 32/34. Bigger than 34T is the next size plate up so 30% more material so costs more and takes longer to machine.
I’ve got to finish moving the warehouse and making some Porsche cup race car gearbox casings before I’ll have time to do them.
working on titanium rings too. I want to make hundreds so there’s a lot of time involved in soaking the process in. If I said sub £200 would that interest people? Billet alone is £40!
neil SuperstarComponents
Realistically once this blip of bankruptcy stock dumping is over I’m certain everyone will go back to 10% discounts max and RRPs will all go up 20-30% to reflect reality. Prepare to pay alot more soon!
Is this really a period of massive discounts though?
I'm asking because in my head I'm still in the 2010 to 2015 period where, when I was building up a new bike, I would make a list of parts I needed, go to CRC, click 'Sort by Discount First', and I normally didn't need to look much further than the items that were 70% off minimum.
I guess that started to changed with the all the new standards. There probably was still stuff that was 70+% off but I'd already filtered it out because it wasn't going to fit on my bike.
I've always looked around when buying new bits. Used everyone, from the likes of works, & superstar through to the major retailers... I've always gone on "value for money" but I've stuck to branded or UK made equipment, the (higher end) bike industry is relatively small, so supporting small business that do things right, quality check, use the right materials, don't use (what is essentially) slave labour etc.... is of higher importance.
Back in the 90s when I was a teenager riding my GT Tempest, I used to be in the LBS every weekend getting stuff repaired or replaced on my bike, a couple of years later the only original part on the bike was the frame... And there was no such thing as "internet prices" back then, all my earnings from my evening job washing dishes at the local pub went on my biking addiction hobby! ...I remember going through a huge number of d521 rims!!!
Im absolutely gutted that the Belfast store is closing. I’d hoped that a new buyer for the whole shebang would be found and the store might survive. That’s where I try on all my bike clothing before buying - dunno about you folks, but I find it very difficult to judge sizes and feel of clothing without actually trying them on in the flesh. Bummer! Bummer bummer.
and more importantly, having been laid off twice, I’ve some idea of the trauma for the poor employees, which is just awful.
The amount of time this is taking is making me think much more that any buyer wont 'save' much of CRC/ Wiggle at all.
There can't be much stock left now, there will still be some heavy debts - especially to companies in the far east that supply the in-house brands so what is really up for purchase other than a website, stock nobody really wants and debt, oh and Nukeproof of course but who would buy the whole thing to get the brand (Again with no stock)
Its looking a bit bleak if you ask me - At least the employees have some warning here, small consolation I know.
Just see that CRC/Wiggle/Signa owe Sam Hill £34k....
Just a heads up that my EU return from 20/12 has been returned back to me again. Customer service have given multiple reasons and I feel none hold up (I'll keep the details vague so far). Long story short I think this is the end and buying anything is probably risky even in the UK.
Ooh, i was going to return items too....i think i shall wait for now
There can’t be much stock left now
I noticed when searching for "Ragley" only 6 items came up (three mech hangers, cable guides, blanking plates and some gravel forks). Crazy given how much Ragley stuff they have had
The list of creditors makes depressing reading when you see how much is owed to some smaller companies who probably can't afford to take that kind of hit.
I've just had some great customer service from them the last few days. I'm not sure I'd be worrying based on a very vague return experience.
There can’t be much stock left now, there will still be some heavy debts – especially to companies in the far east that supply the in-house brands so what is really up for purchase other than a website, stock nobody really wants and debt, oh and Nukeproof of course but who would buy the whole thing to get the brand (Again with no stock)
That's not entirely how it will likely work out. The debt will likely get written off with the sale of the business assets.
Companies do get sold with debts, but not (AFAIK) out of administration. The administrators will add up all they've made from selling assets, IP, real estate etc. Pay themselves, then HMRC, then anything left is split between the other creditors. Then the 'new' company starts with a clean slate.
Crazy given how much Ragley stuff they have had
Someone looks to have got their hands on a load... whether that was from Wiggle stock or direct from a let down supplier, I don't know...
I ordered one of the £400 Vitus Sentier 29 VR hardtails on 6th Jan and have just had a dispatch notification (due tomorrow). Should I be concerned that apparently it is being delivered in two parts (it was built by CRC)?!
Anyone received their’s yet - I’m sure it won’t be a problem, just curious?
@ricbikemag - I wouldn't worry - mate and I ordered the Sentier 27, his showed as 2 parts - both bikes delivered, intact, yesterday. The 48hr delivery was somewhat longer - ordered 5th, delivered 15th, but both got here.
Did anyone get a set of the 650 prime gravel wheels, that they actually dont need?
Cracked a rim at the weekend so happy to pay a little premium if someone wants to move a set on?
@northshoreniall cheers, good to know 👍🏼
On the refunds, I sent something back on 23 Dec, they eventually got it on 1 Jan, and got the money back on 4 Jan. Seems OK to me but obviously things could change quickly.
Rich_s
I understand there’s a ready market for On/Off switches for cockpit voice recorders.
The on switch is where the shortage is, there's no shortage of off switches.
Im finding more and more stuff i want to buy is cheaper elsewhere, is out of stock or says stock coming soon
Its got to a point where ive decided not to renew my Wiggle+ for this year and my Platnuim discount has lapsed
Shame as ive been uisng them since they were Butler Cycles in Southsea and they were a good local employer and still have a small office based team here in Portsmouth
Did anyone get a set of the 650 prime gravel wheels, that they actually dont need?
I've messaged you about some non-Prime carbon gravel wheels 🙂
oh and Nukeproof of course but who would buy the whole thing to get the brand (Again with no stock)
Lunchtime ride ponderings:
They've cleared out Ragley, maybe it was a small brand and wasn't worth much more than the stock?
They've sold off all the Vitus MTB's, but not the road bikes, my guess is they're going to try and package that up as a road brand and sell it separately.
Same with Nukeproof? They sold of the gravel framesets a while back. Leaves the core business of the MTB's as a nice package for someone to take on.
Which just leaves the big-ticket physical/virtual assets of the shopping side of things.
And the assorted other in-house brands (lifeline, DHB, etc), which as mentioned before probably aren't worth all that much as a brand without much of a going concern (see Brant buying Onza for less than the price of a 2nd hand Fiesta). DHB probably doesn't have enough brand recognition to appeal to the likes of Mike Ashley or VC's in their own right, but might appeal to another outdoor clothing brand with no cycling presence, like Rab or Terra Nova, they'd have the resources to bring bits of them in house and make savings. Whereas Lifeline, every distributor already has an in-house brand of tools and consumables so I can't see that surviving outside CRC.
The re-platforming of the ecommerce solution which was part of the website redesign was outsourced
Yeah, I'm not sure how much value there is in a boutique brand like Ragley. They've always been a bit under the raydar.
Its got to a point where ive decided not to renew my Wiggle+
Can't renew anyway - it's not currently available to renew or take out. I tried as mine expired on 27th Dec and queried it on their chat when I couldn't get it to renew. Not surprised TBH as it was mega VFM for the next-day postage.
Oh it was so obvious. That banana industries shop thing with virtually no details of who they are… I thought it smells very Planet X. I did find the company details and went on companies house and BINGO I’m straight on the money davie boy
My money is on Dave buying all the stuff CRC failed to pay the factory for as a highly likely guess.
made my day that.
Neil SuperstarComponents
And apparently a bankrupt bike frames brands whole stock which he is selling back to them in drops as they can afford it to relaunch like nothing happened. Like the bike industry crack dealer🤣
I didn’t know Brant bought Onza, interesting…
Neil SuperstarComponents
Oh it was so obvious. That banana industries shop thing with virtually no details of who they are… I thought it smells very Planet X. I did find the company details and went on companies house and BINGO I’m straight on the money davie boy
Yep. Funnily enough I went down the same rathole when Brant linked to their socks which all links up too.
And apparently a bankrupt bike frames brands whole stock which he is selling back to them in drops as they can afford it to relaunch like nothing happened. Like the bike industry crack dealer🤣
I heard that from a good source the other day too.
Oh aye? Frame brand?
Isnt that the old old well documented story thats part of the Stanton relaunch? Good spot on Banana tho'.
And apparently a bankrupt bike frames brands whole stock which he is selling back to them in drops as they can afford it to relaunch like nothing happened.
Well, except the 800 or so frames that were still in the factory but the less said about them the better.
I like Stanton bikes and glad they have survived but did find it a bit odd how the ‘internet’ seemed to label the investor who had ploughed almost a million quid into the business evil because he wanted to see some return, a million bloody quid - gone.
For those who have had their cheap Virus HTs delivered, when did you order?
We ordered the Sentier VRW for my wife on 6th a Jan and still haven't had a dispatch notification.
Well, except the 800 or so frames that were still in the factory but the less said about them the better.
The ones that STW ran that weird article about when they showed up on a German(?) site?
I like Stanton bikes and glad they have survived but did find it a bit odd how the ‘internet’ seemed to label the investor who had ploughed almost a million quid into the business evil because he wanted to see some return, a million bloody quid – gone.
Yeah, that was more the PB comments than here but I do agree. Wasn't the investor that had run the company so far into the red eh.
the PB comments<br />
🤷🏼♂️
For those who have had their cheap Virus HTs delivered, when did you order?
We ordered the Sentier VRW for my wife on 6th a Jan and still haven’t had a dispatch notification.
Same here.
Ordered theVRW on the 6th. Got dispatch notification last week and the bike arrived yesterday.
@dogthomson - I ordered 5th, turned up 15th. I know somewhere on the PSA Vitus thread someone said been advised may take until Feb for delivery. Some have contacted and said willing to take without their PDI - so you need build bike more than standard delivery.
The re-platforming of the ecommerce solution which was part of the website redesign was outsourced
Thanks for the link. Speaking as a grizzled software engineer that article consisted almost entirely of red flags. The old system might have been a crufty nightmare creaking at every interface, but a ground-up rewrite is pretty much always the wrong choice.
Realistically once this blip of bankruptcy stock dumping is over I’m certain everyone will go back to 10% discounts max and RRPs will all go up 20-30% to reflect reality. Prepare to pay alot more soon!
I suspect this too.
What will be odd is that there is a *lot* of very cheaply bought kit and bikes around, and the second hand market will be somewhat fubared. And we are still at a time of hugely increased household living costs. This may have an impact on new purchases through the next couple of years...
In case anyone is worrying about returning stuff I returned a cracked Vitus frame in November, CRC confirmed they couldn't repair it and would refund me on 22nd December and...that's the last thing that happened.<br /><br />They're now not responding to emails / queries using the "contact us" form on the site and the person on their live chat couldn't get any information about it beyond a pdf of a returns form with no financial information attached to it. That live chat person promised to email me with the transaction details (as the bank's confirmed nothing's been sent from them) but so far...nada.
Looks like a small claims case incoming 🙁
So maybe be a little wary...
Yep. Funnily enough I went down the same rathole when Brant linked to their socks which all links up too.
Didn't Brant actually design the Ragley stuff to start with as well? This all seems a bit incentuous or "inbred".
@twinklydave did you pay by credit card rather than debit card? If so you can log a claim with your CC company who should be able to sort it for you.
