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Today's poll is "DH/Climbing etiquette - Who gives way?". If you haven't seen it currently DH gives way is winning. There's a bit more to it IMO. When going the same way slower rider gives way to faster when going in opposite directions the better rider gives way weaker rider or polite rider gives way to rude rider. All things being equal I'd go with the Climbing rider giving way as its usually easier for them get back into a rhythm after a stop. Downhill rider is probably having more fun so let them have it and keep the flow. That said the Downhill rider is one going faster and likely to inflict more damage so its up to them to stop if necessary, I just think the climbing riding shouldn't make it necessary.
Climbing rider giving way as its usually easier for them get back into a rhythm after a stop.
It rather depends on the climb.
The old etiquette* for road users was that you gave way to the vehicle coming uphill because it was harder for them to get going again. I'd say that applies to BWs as well so DH gives way to climbing IMO.
*There's no etiquette these days on the roads, it's every tw** for themselves!
It rather depends on the climb.
Well yes, if its a steep, technical bit then you won't get going again easily but I suspect a down-hiller won't be stopping too quickly on that either
Climbing rider giving way as its usually easier for them get back into a rhythm after a stop
Don't agree at all, much harder for the climber to get going again. Those going downhill can start rolling again reasonably easily most of the time.
No brainer for me, always the onus on the one going downhill to give way.
The climbing rider can usually hear the decending rider and may choose to pull over. The decending rider should (at least on a public RoW) be prepared to stop within the distance they can see, so if the climbing rider hasn't stopped I think the descender should give way.
I will also stop if I hear a faster rider behind me (but am I being unreasonable to feel a bit miffed when it turns out be an ebike?)
Both for me. If I'm climbing I'll happily give room for someone descending, providing it's safe for me to do so. But if you're descending a trail where somebody may be climbing up it then it's your responsibility to descend safely, you've got to be able to slow down or stop in time to avoid an accident. If I can't give fellow trail users a wide berth when descending I'll slow down and say hello, life's too short and don't be a dick.
I'll always pull over if I'm on the climb- I climb to descend so it's not like it can "spoil" a climb but stopping on your descent sucks.
But if I'm descending I'll always slow and see what's up and stop if necessary.
It's easier for the rider going up to stop. I would move out the way as I don't want to risk being hit by a rider who may not be able to stop in time
If I was coming down I would probably try to stop and pull over because I feel like that is the polite thing to do.
Don’t agree at all, much harder for the climber to get going again. Those going downhill can start rolling again reasonably easily most of the time.
No brainer for me, always the onus on the one going downhill to give way.
+1
The old etiquette* for road users was that you gave way to the vehicle coming uphill because it was harder for them to get going again.
I believe the reason for this is that it is safer for a car to reverse uphill than downhill because in the latter instance the car is actually freewheeling and therefore not under complete control.
I believe the reason for this is that it is safer for a car to reverse uphill than downhill because in the latter instance the car is actually freewheeling and therefore not under complete control.
I remember years ago in Innsbruck in winter being driven by a local (sister in law’s partner). He stopped at the bottom of a hill to allow the car to coming down to have right of way despite the parked cars being on that car’s side of the road. I asked why and he said it was etiquette as harder to reverse back up the hill in snow. Fair point I thought. Doesn’t work in the UK though.
Poll was 60:40 in favour of dh giving way when I answered.
As said above the rider going up is likely to have more warning of someone coming down and be able to get out of the way, but the rider coming down needs to be prepared to stop.
The old etiquette* for road users was that you gave way to the vehicle coming uphill because it was harder for them to get going again. I’d say that applies to BWs as well so DH gives way to climbing IMO.
^^^This for me...its so much harder to get started & get back in a rhythm again if you're forced to stop when climbing as opposed to descending.
Its all superfluous to some degree as here in the Surrey Hills the climbs & trails are now effectively 1 way systems...you wouldn't ride up a Pitch Hill trail to then descend the fireroad!
Highway Code
Single-track roads. These are only wide enough for one vehicle. They may have special passing places. If you see a vehicle coming towards you, or the driver behind wants to overtake, pull into a passing place on your left, or wait opposite a passing place on your right. Give way to road users coming uphill whenever you can. If necessary, reverse until you reach a passing place to let the other vehicle pass. Slow down when passing pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders.
(yeah - I know this doesn't apply to bikes on narrow tracks)
“I’ll always pull over if I’m on the climb- I climb to descend so it’s not like it can “spoil” a climb but stopping on your descent sucks.
But if I’m descending I’ll always slow and see what’s up and stop if necessary.”
This it for me. I’d pretty much throw myself into a bush or fall off the side of a hill to avoid ruining someone else’s descent.
My view may be skewed because our trails, although ‘natural’ and unofficial, very much have an obvious direction - which is down!!! Fire roads are for back up - or you can ride up some of the descents but they are very much descents (in most of our minds...)
IMBA code clearly states downhill gives way to uphill, unless the trail is marked as one-way. This has been the case since I started MTB'ing in the 80s.
Having said that - common sense and generally not being a dick should prevail in the real world, and everyone should be willing to yield/stop no matter which way they are going.
^ this. It's been DH gives way to any other trail user as long as I can remember. Common sense mostly. Why change now?
(Riding up a clearly made cheeky DH run is silly, but still. Descender is in similar position in terms of duty of care as a car around cyclists. Uncool opinion but...)
“IMBA code clearly states downhill gives way to uphill, unless the trail is marked as one-way. This has been the case since I started MTB’ing in the 80s.“
These are the same people who tell us not to ride in the rain, aren’t they?
Unless signposted one way down then down gives way. Its only going down FFS whereas climbing takes some effort .
@chief - Uh, no. I think rain/mud defers to the "common sense / don't be a dick" real world usage.
What IMBA said.
You can't assume everyone is riding only for the downhill.
It's also safer.
I think the cars etiquette dates back to the days when a hill start carried a risk of clutch burning/ overheating etc. Far less of an issue with modern vehicles.
If you are riding down hill on a narrow track where bikes are likely to be riding up then you shouldn't be riding fast unless you can clearly see ahead. A rider going at 30mph riding into an rider going up at 10mph is not going to end well.
When going the same way slower rider gives way to faster when going in opposite directions the better rider gives way weaker rider or polite rider gives way to rude rider.
So beginners should **** of out of the way if a big hitter's coming through? And we should try to figure out who's better or nicer when approaching each other.
Maybe you're trolling but this is clearly bollocks.
All things being equal I’d go with the Climbing rider giving way as its usually easier for them get back into a rhythm after a stop. Downhill rider is probably having more fun so let them have it and keep the flow.
Maybe you're trolling but this, too, is clearly bollocks.
Giving people the idea that everyone else should get out of their way when they're barreling down a hill only encourages them to ride in a way that's going to end badly.
Are you an e-bike rider?*
PS no idea where the poll is on this site, can't find it.
(* that's trolling 😉 )
What Kerley said. The DH rider should be looking ahead, even moreso if on a bi directional trail.
Climbers are sweating and toiling away looking about 5m ahead at best.
And we should try to figure out who’s better or nicer when approaching each other.
The better/nicer rider already knows. If you don't then it's probably not you 🙂
Well the trolling’s going quite well, I’ll give you that 🙂
Whoever see's who first... kinna just common decency, rather than living by rigid rules.
PS no idea where the poll is on this site, can’t find it.
It's on the forum overview page
Ta.
I see 39% of forum users are bells. Not sure how that compares to expectations 😀
cynic-al
You can’t assume everyone is riding only for the downhill.
I think you can assume that most people are. If not only, then mostly.
Same as Northwind and Chief. The fun is in the DH so I always pull over and get out of the way. Sometimes I've been know to give a bit of encouragement and a bit of banter. Most times it's appreciated, sometimes its a grunt 😉
Reading the article, I might vote climbing priority over descent - but my local trails are not like that. The climbs are untechnical and frankly boring. The only time they’re actually fun with with e-power to do them fast. Maybe that’s why pretty much everyone here gives way to the descending rider?
And as I said earlier, although they’re unofficial, they’re all built as descents.
Here in Canada it's descending rider gives way to climber. The climbs are typically steep here and you'll have to push to the nearest flatter section if you stop.
DH gives way rule is sound for trucks and cars in mountainous country's a big truck hauling a heavy load may struggle to get the splitter box back out of low ratio if they stop... Different story now days with motorways in a country as flat as England. just try hauling 40 ton cargo on a 1950 Bedford with drum brakes and no power steering... your arms and legs would be shaking with the effort. I've done it 1959 Kent country bus three point turns up 15 switchbacks in Andorra... Totally needed help to turn the wheel... Got to the top for the locals to say how the fXXX did you get that up here... Jaw dropping... drivings a piece of piss now days with Power steering and gentle gradient roads...
Depends entirely on whether I'm going up or downhill.
It depends if I can see someone is climbing with effort then I’ll give way, counter wise if I’m climbing leisurely I’ll move over. On a few uphills were I know riders speed coming down them then concentration of eyes and ears usually means I can be off track before a bike reaches me
IMBA code? Really? 🤔🤣
I'll give way to descenders, cos I can see them coming at my slow pace, and descending is why I climb.
Though I'll always slow when coming down to anyone climbing, wouldn't expect them to cede, but they often do.
F knows what some archaic driving rules have to do with it tbh.
Fortunately, never really meet anyone on my local stuff anyway.
If it's a purpose built trail then they are usually "directional" so you shouldn't be riding in the opposite direction. If it's a BW then it's a public ROW and falls under the "rules of the road", plus rule #1 applies.
Does depend on what the trail's like, a lot of BWs are wide enough or have wider sections to allow passing.
if you say that the DH rider has priority then this will quickly turn into ive got the right to go as fast as i like and everyone else needs to get out of the way.
the uphill rider takes priority. its safer.
if you say that the DH rider has priority then this will quickly turn into ive got the right to go as fast as i like and everyone else needs to get out of the way.
the uphill rider takes priority. its safer.
No one takes 'priority' and no one behaving like dicks is my preferred option.
I would've said the uphill rider should give way as it's harder and less safe to try and stop when going downhill. it's easy and safe to stop when going up, it's just inconvenient. Safety trumps inconvenience.
So beginners should **** of out of the way if a big hitter’s coming through? And we should try to figure out who’s better or nicer when approaching each other.
The rider on the cheaper bike should always give way. That's how capitalism works. Ideally riders should carry a purchase receipt to resolve any disputes.
if it's
harder and less safe to try and stop when going downhill
then you're going too fast for your skill level. what the *** happens if you get round a corner and meet a horse, or a family out for a walk? You should be able to stop safely.
F knows what some archaic driving rules have to do with it tbh.
Your right they don't. Only rule is don't be a dick. Going down be aware that some people might be coming up, going up watch out for people coming down. In practice it works fine, it's only ever an argument on the internet !!
I don’t know if it’s just me, but when I’m going up a trail:
1. It’s a damn sight easier to hear someone coming down it at speed than when I’m the descender listening for people coming up (which is why I get out of the way and let them continue enjoying their descent).
2. On 99% of local trails the singletrack was made as a descent, so if you’re going up it you know that you’re in a minority and you try not to mess up anyone’s descent.
Obviously on bridleways and footpaths the behaviour should be totally different. Not being a dick seems to work in all contexts.
In practice it works fine, it’s only ever an argument on the internet !!
100%
The ROW nerds love a chance to wield their keyboards like axes! 🙂
every ride is a race
surely the one who's about to get a new Straaaavaaaaaa!!!! KoM has priority?
which of course for roadies is correct and uphill, but MTBers, that'll be down hill.
there should be an option for "use commonsense to determine right of way" in the poll. I've given way to horses, and had horses give way to me. same with hikers. same with MTBers in both directions. only been apprehended by dog walkers for telling me I was riding too fast on a cycle path while their mutts were running wild in a nature reserve.
as for cars, on snow, lose traction uphill and it's potentially tricky to get moving again, but lose traction down hill and errm good luck, hope you don't fall of the side of the mountain.
Having 'earned' my descent, I love giving way to those who are on their way to earning it...
I try to give way whichever way I'm going tbh, 'cos it's just nice. That doesn't necessarily mean coming to a complete stop though - on a lot of the trails I ride there's room to pass whilst moving, and often the funnest downhill line is not the line you'd generally pick to climb up anyway.
Some of the places I ride though there are definitely trails that are 'known' as descents, and those that're known as climbs, so a lot of the time people tend to be going in the same direction anyway. And some of the places I ride there just aren't any people, which is the best.
"Don't be a dick" is entirely commendable as a fundamental way to interact with the world, and if it actually worked as a rule we wouldn't need most others. The problem is that quite a few people do behave like dicks, and rules/guidelines/protocol/whatever exist to (a) give guidance to people who can't figure out how not to be a dick, and/or (b) give some recourse against people who don't care about not being a dick.
The aim here is not to prevent nice people from giving way to others, whichever way they're going in. The aim is to cut down on dicks barreling into other people because they're riding too fast to safely avoid them. And it's when coming downhill, not going up, that that risk arises.
Bez's post makes I sad ☹️
Sorry. Will get back to trolling mode 🙂
I gave way to some horse riders on Sunday. I mean WTF, I had the all effort of getting restarted! If they'd given way, the horses would make all the effort.*
[i]The aim is to cut down on dicks barreling into other people because they’re riding too fast to safely avoid them. And it’s when coming downhill, not going up, that that risk arises.[/i]
I thought this was bleedin obvious when it was discussed on the thread which gave arise to the poll.
I wuz rong.
*had a little chat with them too. Nice kids.
I thought this was bleedin obvious when it was discussed on the thread which gave arise to the poll.
Sorry for not reading all the threads 🙂 Or not remembering, whichever.
it’s harder and less safe to try and stop when going downhill. it’s easy and safe to stop when going up, it’s just inconvenient. Safety trumps inconvenience.
Nonsense.
there should be an option for “use commonsense to determine right of way” in the poll
That is the correct answer but unfortunately a lot of people these days don't have any of it to use!
It's got so bad I think it needs to be in the national curriculum, but maybe teach it before sex education so people have it before they go using their genitals for reproductive purposes and making more stupid people 😛
1) There are quite a lot of climbs around here (Dark Peak) that I get a lot of enjoyment out of trying to 'clean'. I'm sure this comes from my trials days but I'm not alone in this pursuit. If it's a particularly techy climb that I've been trying for ages, I'll get a lot more enjoyment out of cleaning it than E.g. a KOM on the descent. If it's an easy climb then of course I'm happy to just get out of the way for someone coming down.
2) A lot of the trails around here are on wide-ish bridleways so a) they mostly work in both directions but b) are far easier in the downhill direction and c) there is always a choice of a couple of lines so there is scope for riders to pass each other without anyone stopping. I'm talking about trails a lot of people will know (The Beast, Potato Alley, Lockerbrook, Devil's Elbow@Blacka etc).
3) Most people you encounter are not going for a KOM. It's a small minority that will even care about being delayed slightly on a descent.
With that in mind (as well as the safety arguments already discussed), I definitely believe the climber takes priority, at least on the sort of trails around here. However, if the climber is just pootling up a steady climb then they may wish to get out of the way and that's great too.
The bigger point is of course no one should feel entitled to do anything other than give way to other trail users.
uphill should give way as it is easier for them to stop than someone ragging down a hill on a mtb.
"I would’ve said the uphill rider should give way as it’s harder and less safe to try and stop when going downhill. it’s easy and safe to stop when going up, it’s just inconvenient. Safety trumps inconvenience."
"uphill should give way as it is easier for them to stop than someone ragging down a hill on a mtb."
and we wonder why we come into conflict with other trail users.....
If you are on a PROW you give way if going downhill, it keeps you within the speed to safely stop for walkers, runners, horses, other people on bikes
sometimes these people stop and give way, be appreciative, say thanks and don't rag it past them
barging your way through because i) you as the downhill rider MUST be enjoying yourself more ii) you've earnt it going up hill to get to the top, iii) it is easier for them to stop than someone ragging down a hill on a mtb, iv) as it’s harder and less safe to try and stop when going downhill, v) Straaaavaaaaaa!!!!
I think you need to sit down with a cup of tea and consider what "don't be dick" means
Judging by the poll & this thread I think it's safe to say that the 'etiquette' isn't very well understod. I conclude from this there isn't actually an etiquette.
Judging by the poll & this thread I think it’s safe to say that the ‘etiquette’ isn’t very well understod. I conclude from this there isn’t actually an etiquette
judging by this thread I have concluded that some people are dicks
uphill should give way as it is easier for them to stop than someone ragging down a hill on a mtb.
I’m guessing you’re either unable to control a bike downhill or unable to tackle difficult trails uphill. Which is it? 🙂
Since moving back to Scotland about 5 years ago, I honestly can't think when this was ever an issue. It may be because no-one builds technical climbs, so all built/cut tracks are 100% for descending, and if you choose to push/pedal up one and someone is coming the other way, you just get off the track as it's built as a descent.
I’m guessing you’re either unable to control a bike downhill or unable to tackle difficult trails uphill. Which is it? 🙂
Why is that a choice of one or other when there's every chance it's both?
It’s got so bad I think it needs to be in the national curriculum, but maybe teach it before sex education
What level of common sense do you have when you think common sense can be taught?
Judging by the poll & this thread I think it’s safe to say that the ‘etiquette’ isn’t very well understod. I conclude from this there isn’t actually an etiquette.
Totally agree, people just work things out if left alone,who needs rules for playing in the woods, well mostly. Can't honestly remember if I've ever had a problem with oncoming riders up or down. Everyone seems pretty keen not to crash into each other, I'd leave it at that.
I guess the issue is more prevalent in the US, where trail centres aren’t directional, and are built to be ridden both ways, so they need to have it codified. (If the 200 odd comments on the FB post are anything to go by...)
Less of an issue here where trail centres are ridden in one direction.
(Yes I know not all UK Mtbing is done at a trail centre, but I figure people who do it out in the wild have a bit more about them when it comes to stuff like this...)
“The ROW nerds love a chance to wield their keyboards like axes! 🙂“
Solved it chaps, the person who gets off their bike first has right of way, as cyclists must give way to pedestrians. 👍
as cyclists must give way to pedestrians.
New poll!!
Climbing rider giving way as its usually easier for them get back into a rhythm after a stop.
It's the opposite, surely?
Also giving priority to the descending rider makes for a potentially dangerous practice.
In reality, if circumstances easily allowed it, I'd probably try to create as little inconvenience as possible when climbing. But at the same time, there has got to be some courtesy from the descending rider. There is nothing good going to come from an etiquette that says I'm going fast so get the chuff out the way, because Strava, etc...