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There was an interesting little piece on the lunchtime news about proposed changes to the Crime and Policing bill that would allow police to enter premises without a warrant if trackable stolen items had been located.
It's primarily in response to phone snatching & laptop theft, but also specifically mentioned Bluetooth tagged bikes.
You'd still have to persuade the plod to take an interest but I wonder whether it bodes well for stolen bike recovery if the police can solve a crime more easily without the hassle of obtaining a court warrant.
Also on the BBC News website - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5269qn5jvo
I've got a horrible feeling it will be abused as in 'I smelt Marijana coming from the vehicle' made up shite... Any excuse 🫤
If only the technology was as clever as they like to portray it - I had someone knocking on my door looking for his phone, because ‘find my phone’ told him it was at my house. Turns out he’d dropped his phone on the coast path about 150m away, but it then pinged to the closest property ie mine.
Friend had their ipad nicked and traced to block of flats, police said they didn't know which flat so couldn't get a warrant
Not sure if in that case they'd have checked every flat?
I've got a horrible feeling it will be abused as in 'I smelt Marijana coming from the vehicle' made up shite... Any excuse
At least in this case there'd be a digital record
There may well be but it'll be 'in the region of' rather than 'number 23 Acacia Terrace' so plenty of margin for the usual nefarious interpretation...
I may not have understood correctly but AIUI Police don't need a warrant in some circumstances relating to drugs offences - presumably so that if they arrest Fred for possession with intent to supply they can go and search his house immediately rather than wait for a warrant and give his accomplices time to remove evidence.
Obviously my privilege means I still assume the Police don't always abuse their powers, I'm sure others have had a different experience and have a different view.
I heard it on the radio as well and definitely a h good thing imo . The Police don’t just randomly enter people houses for the sake of it
Not sure if in that case they'd have checked every flat?
no need to is there. The Police tend to know all the local scrotes and where they live.
This just gives them the ability to do something about asap rather than having to wait for a warrant at which time the bike will have gone
Oh yeah, it’s a great idea. Let’s give up all our rights shall we, or maybe just allow the Special Stolen Bike Police Squad to pop in unannounced. FFS! Honestly?
The Police often do exactly what they want and twist their rights under existing legislation to cover their actions. Give them an inch etc. Don't forget, the Force is made up of people and people by and large take the piss given half a chance. Hooman nature innit?
Checks browser address and other threads
Yep, I am indeed still on singletrackworld.com as evidenced by there being a 'what tyres' thread. Wondered if the forum had been hacked (again) but apparently not.
Checks browser address and other threads
Yep, I am indeed still on singletrackworld.com as evidenced by there being a 'what tyres' thread. Wondered if the forum had been hacked (again) but apparently not.
Feel free to filter just to the Bike forum
The Police often do exactly what they want and twist their rights under existing legislation to cover their actions. Give them an inch etc. Don't forget, the Force is made up of people and people by and large take the piss given half a chance. Hooman nature innit?
They don't though do they? The same way the government don't do exactly what they want, because of the checks and balances that mean that very little actually does get done. That's not to say I want to live in a dictatorship where the executive can do what it what's unchecked, but there is a balance isn't there?
The police are hamstrung by well meaning legislations, paperwork and other clear limitations - morale in forces are incredibly low and they get paid a pittance. You do understand that the public also want the police to act on their behalf, and recover property which is stolen from them in a quick fashion.
If an item is digitally showing up on your property and the police have proof of that - then let them search the property. What difference does it make to you if you are not guilty?
The Police tend to know all the local scrotes and where they live.
That is intelligence information which can already be placed before the magistrate to assess the warrant application.
This just gives them the ability to do something about asap rather than having to wait for a warrant
Why do they have to wait for a warrant? Its not a particularly slow process, it could probably be made more efficient but isn’t it likely that the efficiency would be helpful for other crimes too?
at which time the bike will have gone
there are already provisions in law when waiting for a warrant would have been clearly unacceptable; but the obvious question would be - since you’ll probably want at least 4 officers to execute a Warrant why can’t two of them sit outside the property waiting for the bike to move and the other two get the form signed?
The safeguards requiring judicial approval for the police to search our homes is there to protect all of us. Be concerned when the government (of any flavour) increase the powers of the police rather than tackling the route cause.
The Police tend to know all the local scrotes and where they live.
That is intelligence information which can already be placed before the magistrate to assess the warrant application.
This just gives them the ability to do something about asap rather than having to wait for a warrant
Why do they have to wait for a warrant? Its not a particularly slow process, it could probably be made more efficient but isn’t it likely that the efficiency would be helpful for other crimes too?
at which time the bike will have gone
there are already provisions in law when waiting for a warrant would have been clearly unacceptable; but the obvious question would be - since you’ll probably want at least 4 officers to execute a Warrant why can’t two of them sit outside the property waiting for the bike to move and the other two get the form signed?
The safeguards requiring judicial approval for the police to search our homes is there to protect all of us. Be concerned when the government (of any flavour) increase the powers of the police rather than tackling the route cause.
2 officers waiting outside a premises for a warrant to be sorted? What planet are you living on where this is a good use of time?
There is no magistrate who will issue a warrant based on 'intelligence' that people living in flats are known to be 'scrotes' by the local coppers.
Feel free to filter just to the Bike forum
No need, just commenting (poorly perhaps) in relation to the view above. What you say applies to me I guess: "Obviously my privilege means I still assume the Police don't always abuse their powers, I'm sure others have had a different experience and have a different view." 🙂
Why do they have to wait for a warrant? Its not a particularly slow process
It is quite a slow process.
If an item is digitally showing up on your property and the police have proof of that - then let them search the property. What difference does it make to you if you are not guilty?
your wife or teenage daughter would be happy with a couple of burly cops rummaging through their underwear drawer or under the bed where they keep their, ahem, toys, because next door has a nicked iPhone? You would be happy that if you are out at work when they come to execute the warrant your front door gets smashed in and your whole property rummaged?
If it just happened that in the process of searching for the phone (which you don’t have) some other crime was discovered (perhaps a teenager’s cannabis stash) that you should be at risk of being convicted of that for no reason at all. Are you happy for all your electronics or bikes to be seized so police can investigate if any of them are the missing item?
To be clear if the cops arrive here today and say “we’ve got a report there is a stolen air tag on the premises can we have a look around” then I’ll happily show them around. They don’t need any new powers to ask that question - indeed the magistrate should be asking if there’s any way to do this without a warrant. I’ve nothing to hide*, but if they want to start opening drawers etc they can come back with a warrant.
if they kick your door in but it turns out that the position error on the tag actually meant it was next door - who pays to replace your door? Who puts your stuff back exactly where it was?
if you really want to **** someone over - just do what creepy stalkers were allegedly doing when AirTags first launched - drop one in their bag/pocket etc, call police and report the item stolen with a location - they’ll have an unpleasant time in the cells and have to do all the explaining. There’s probably a nice scam to invent here where you hide a tracker in a bike part, sell it online - watch for it being added to a bike then report stolen with the associated description… I’d say a chance you end up with a whole bike “returned”.
*but I do have a lot of confidential business information, and considerable inconvenience if they decide to seize my phone etc (do you think the average cop can identify the IMEI number on my iphone12 and be sure it’s not the missing one?).
I've got a horrible feeling it will be abused as in 'I smelt Marijana coming from the vehicle' made up shite... Any excuse
Good?
I'm sure the police have better things to do than randomly kick someone's door through for the LOLs.
'number 23 Acacia Terrace'
They'd have a fight on their hands, isn't that where Bananaman lived?
'
They'd have a fight on their hands, isn't that where Bananaman lived?
He's a slippery character that one and a sworn enemy of the Peelers
If it just happened that in the process of searching for the phone (which you don’t have) some other crime was discovered (perhaps a teenager’s cannabis stash) that you should be at risk of being convicted of that for no reason at all.
If you were to be at risk of conviction for possession of cannabis then it wouldn't be "for no reason at all" would it, it would be for possession of cannabis.
Come on dude, you're normally the voice of reason here. Sure, there are some coppers who justify the nickname 'pigs,' I've met a couple myself. But a scenario where they're going "quiet night tonight Bob, shall we kick down the door of number 13 and see if we can find anything to get our numbers up?" is surely a flight of fancy.
Isn't it?
(do you think the average cop can identify the IMEI number on my iphone12 and be sure it’s not the missing one?).
*#06# will display the IMEI number on any mobile phone.
Moreover though, do you think the average lost phone owner would know their IMEI?
But a scenario where they're going "quiet night tonight Bob, shall we kick down the door of number 13 and see if we can find anything to get our numbers up?" is surely a flight of fancy.
More so as the execution of the new power has to be authorised by at least an Inspector, (as per current search without warrant powers under PACE) who isn’t going to want their name added to any potential lawsuit .
The Police often do exactly what they want and twist their rights under existing legislation to cover their actions. Give them an inch etc. Don't forget, the Force is made up of people and people by and large take the piss given half a chance. Hooman nature innit?
There's a soupçon of truth in that, (3% of all complaints in 2023/24, all complaints, not the proven complaints) https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/publications/police-complaints-statistics-england-and-wales-202324-plain-text
The simple fact is that the fruit of the poisoned tree is always poisoned.
A lawyer would pull the process apart and even if a stolen bike was found off the back of an illegal search then it may be excluded from evidence. Effectively it's as if the stolen bike was never found, so what's the point?
s78 PACE and the ECHR are two acts that a lawyer would rely on, but it also depends on a balance to society. If the police conducted an illegal search and found a serial murderer's trophy cabinet then that would be a different thing for obvious reasons
78 Exclusion of unfair evidence.
(1)In any proceedings the court may refuse to allow evidence on which the prosecution proposes to rely to be given if it appears to the court that, having regard to all the circumstances, including the circumstances in which the evidence was obtained, the admission of the evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness of the proceedings that the court ought not to admit it. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/78
And no, getting a warrant is not a quick process, especially out of hours
It is quite a slow process.
It is (and should be) a considered process, that doesn't mean it has to be slow. If they want to improve the process to make it quicker then I am sure that would be helpful, but it would be helpful for all searches not just stolen tagged items. I'd suggest that in the current process getting a warrant signed by a magistrate is NOT usually the rate limiting step in going from "I think there are stolen goods in there" to kicking the door in.
It is (and should be) a considered process, that doesn't mean it has to be slow.
The process is slowed down by the consideration required, and how this consideration is actually applied; all of which are impacted by budgetary and resource shortages. Even with the required resources in place it is still not a quick process. Saying “that doesn’t mean it has to be slow” is a disconnect with reality.
I'd suggest that in the current process getting a warrant signed by a magistrate is NOT usually the rate limiting step….
Yeh, I’ve never sat around waiting for someone to come back from court with a warrant.
Signed
A person who has applied for lots of warrants
If you were to be at risk of conviction for possession of cannabis then it wouldn't be "for no reason at all" would it, it would be for possession of cannabis."no reason at all" may have been overstating the issue, but it creates a problem where under today's rules a search warrant would likely not have been granted because we believe people should have a right to peacefully enjoy their family home without the intrusion of the state, but a "new airtag search" is authorised and as a side effect other low level offences are detected. Some people might say good - if you do nothing wrong you'll be fine. On that basis why do we need judicial oversight of any warrant? Why not just let the cops with approval from their inspector kick in any door?
Come on dude, you're normally the voice of reason here. Sure, there are some coppers who justify the nickname 'pigs,' I've met a couple myself. But a scenario where they're going "quiet night tonight Bob, shall we kick down the door of number 13 and see if we can find anything to get our numbers up?" is surely a flight of fancy.Isn't it?
I think you are absolutely right that randomly kicking in no 13's door to liven things up is unlikely. Is kicking in no 13's door because everyone knows he's a wrongun and if we can't catch him at least he'll be disrupted? Probably still rare given the resources required to execute a search - but I do think the criteria for are probably dodgy... and open to systemic abuse. I don't think most cops are malevolent, although they may have institutional biases which only requiring an internal approval seems a risk. But that still isn't my real concern.
My issue is I've used "find my device" to locate devices sitting in my house. They've shown up in my semi detached neighbours house, or in my other neighbours house at least 1.5m from mine. I should not be at risk of having my door kicked in because my neighbour has a stolen item. Equally if the cops have to decide between my house and my neighbours house as being the most likely I want some careful challenge to the assumption why this is the right address.
*#06# will display the IMEI number on any mobile phone.
Moreover though, do you think the average lost phone owner would know their IMEI?
Right - so you think if my neighbour has a nicked iphone, police incorrectly track it to my house, use their new search powers to find my iphone that they will stand and debate that this is the phone I've had for years, no I don't have the receipt to hand, no I'm not that keen to give you my screen pin number, but I can bring up the IMEI if you let me use MY phone, but presumably you won't let me touch the suspected evidence etc. Or do you think its going in an evidence bag and I'm going to the police station? Most people accused in that situation are probably not that calm.
I'm not sure what the warrant process is in England - probably something like PC asks Inspector, Inspector gives permission to ask CPS, CPS consider and give permission to apply to the Magistrate, Magistrate grants warrant. How often does it get refused at each stage? How often does the inspector refuse it, because he suspects CPS/magistrate will refuse rather than because he thinks its the right thing to do. I suspect often the Inspector says no just now because they don't have resource to execute - what do you need to do an uncooperative search? I suspect 4-6 officers, if there's lots of people in the property, children to arrange care for, dogs to get under control etc then may be more.
Ultimately the issue is not need for easier search warrants - its a need for more cops to execute warrants. Like most government policy its playing to the media / focus groups rather than actually looking at where the real problem lies.
The process is slowed down by the consideration required, and how this consideration is actually applied; all of which are impacted by budgetary and resource shortages. Even with the required resources in place it is still not a quick process. Saying “that doesn’t mean it has to be slow” is a disconnect with reality.So removing the safeguards (or some of them) rather than resourcing them properly is really not a great idea! If the delay is going to the magistrate to get it signed in person then modernise the system so it can be done by "Zoom" (which might actually be better as then there would be the option to retain a record of what was actually said!), if its about the steps before that, or the form that needs filled in - fix them probably doesn't even need a change in law.
Yeh, I’ve never sat around waiting for someone to come back from court with a warrant.The final stage of process will always be what you wait for - in a new world you will just be waiting for the Inspector, or enough colleagues to make a safe entry instead.
'number 23 Acacia Terrace'
Shouldn't it be '999 Letsbee Avenue'?
Shouldn't it be '999 Letsbee Avenue'?
Very funny. Thank you 😁