Hannah has been in touch.
introducing PowerBar energy bars to the U.K.
There's an interesting story about that I believe... one for the journos to dig into and include in the potted history, if any of them write one as part of all this.
In the TT / Tri world, 10-12 years ago, a PX Stealth was seen everywhere, and PX would have a stand at big events.
What I've seen is that as TT bike aero development increased in the industry in the past 10 years3, they didn't (or weren't able to put the ££ in to try to do it) to keep up - as open-mould offerings just weren't up to it any more.
The introduction of didc brakes even on TT bikes has doubled down on that (there is no way I'd buy a rim brake bike in the past 6 or 7 years, maybe 4 or 5 for a TT bike, as its buying straight into obsolescence).
The good stuff (and by that I mean properly solid and effective and importantly good value for money bikes and frames) bread and butter got buried. Looking at the site now though I’d say it’s much better – to a certain extent a lot of us have preconceptions about what they are which might not be quite right now in 2023.
Dunno, it's probably COVID supply chain related but it's annoyed me for a few years now that there's only ever a slim chance of there being any frames for sale. And if there was it was at fully inflated RRP. I get they why (because they had more build kits that than frames), it's just a irritation when their old business model was selling good VFM frames.
I do remember going round their warehouse and thinking it was like a bigger, slightly more organized version of my shed. Boxes on boxes of stuff bought one the wholesale equivalent of a PSA thread (random saddles, bells, pedals, luggage, even a warehouse rack of sofas and armchairs).
open-mould offerings just weren’t
up to itmarketable any more.
FTFY, the Watts saved on a aero-ish frame Vs a round tube are significant. The Watts saved on an optimized frame Vs an open mold I'm less convinced on. e.g. Specialized claiming the Allez Sprint and Tarmac were as/more aero than the original Venge developed with McLaren. That to me says that the margins are VERY small that new conventional-ish frames could be as good as the previous generations extremes.
Four years ago.
IMHO the on-one inbred changed things, the idea that it cost the same to weld two bits of steel together regardless of geometry, so why not have a cheap frame with angles that work. Started the whole cheap bikes that work thang
introducing PowerBar energy bars to the U.K.
Ruddy ‘ell - I ate hundreds of those during my trailquest days!! 😀
The introduction of didc brakes even on TT bikes has doubled down on that (there is no way I’d buy a rim brake bike in the past 6 or 7 years, maybe 4 or 5 for a TT bike, as its buying straight into obsolescence).
Although most people I know have TT bikes with rim brakes even though all their other bikes are disc.....
4 years ago... EC130 wasn't a TT bike though.
(I'm still using the Stealth and accept its effectively obsolete vs modern tech as far as wheels and tyres.go - being limited to 23mm maybe 25 at a real squeeze, no modern wide rims etc. The bike is not the limiting factor for me other than the seat tube angle could do with being a couple if degrees steeper to get a better body position. But it's seen me through several iron distance races so far and I'm not gonna be troubling the podium even if I had an e-TT bike.)
yeah.
Wow bloomin good timing this thread... Just happened to pop on here earlier today during a very productive toilet break at work and saw this thread! Was just about (later today!) going to order a frame and some other bits totalling about £460. Wonder how many people who don't know the situation are merrily placing orders?
Sad news... Having and two old Inbred frames in the shed and a fatty frame kind of expected on one / planet x to be around for a while.
Would I be crazy taking the risk to order? Assume so....
Was just about (later today!) going to order a frame and some other bits totalling about £460
You still can and it will turn up, if in stock.
Administrators will run it as an ongoing business whilst exploring options.
I'd just use a credit card, as you can always claim off that.
You still can and it will turn up, if in stock.
Just make sure you pay by credit card as that will probably give you the most protection. I need to order some scandal mech hangers before they all sell out!
The px/oo daily email is probably one of the only ones I read as its always worth opening to see what's on offer today. They have had some amazing bargains over the years.
I've owned all 3 versions of the scandal and loved all three.
I was looking at new road bikes the other day, I'm a mtber that rides on road for fitness so not very knowledgeable and their range just confused me. It just seemed like loads of the same bike for various costs and none of them took a mudgaurd unless it was a 1x gravel bike. I gave up in the end and looked at sonder and ribble.
I really hope they survive this or evolve somehow. I know others have had horror stories but I've only ever had good service from them. 🤞
Wonder how many people who don’t know the situation are merrily placing orders?
I did. paid by credit card. Had the confirmation email.
Ordered something.
I've had mixed experiences with them (hasn't everyone?) but for the stuff they are good for they are still amongst the best. I probably have something from there somewhere on me every time I ride a bike.
Sad to see, hope the administrators can keep it running and find a buyer. There will be suppliers that lose out as well even if that happens
My company went through administration three years ago, suppliers lost around $20m, investors $110m. Company was refloated after a few weeks debt free...
I got my old job back on basically the same terms after a few weeks of unemployment.
A handful of staff (mainly finance) were employed throughout the whole process, to keep it running whilst they found a buyer.
I got my old job back on basically the same terms after a few weeks of unemployment
Fingers crossed this is what happens for the Planet X folks
Not sure about the suppliers losing millions part though…
What aren't you sure about?
I've had a 26" singlespeed Inbred MTB, Planet X SL Team road bike, Scandal 26" MTB an On-one Hello Dave MTB. All great bikes with great specs. Still have the Dave and is A perfect for a day riding steep trails.
Hope they can be sold as a going concern.
What aren’t you sure about?
For the Planet X folk to get their old job back like footflaps did, using the example they gave, will mean the supplies who supplied goods in good faith being screwed over which doesn't seem like something to celebrate to me.
Happens all the time where companies go bust, leaving a trail of debt and destruction only for the directors/owners who caused the mess to set up a similar company a while later now free of debt and able to continue living beyond their means. Someone has to pick up the tab.
^^^^
Well, 'NewCo' can always make 'ex gratia' payments to key suppliers. Absolutely nothing to do with 'OldCo', obviously - despite the amounts being remarkably similar to OldCo's trade debts.
I went through a pre-pack administration as an employee. It was horrendous from a personal workload and stress point of view.
Looking at the bigger picture, it was a disgrace how suppliers who the NewCo would need were sorted, whilst others were left chasing pennies in the pound. Mind you, much of the 'other' were landlords on the retail outlets, so limited scope for tears there.
The ones that really left a nasty taste were the little guys - the shopfitters who had dealt with the company for 5 years or more and gradually let more of their other work go to work with us. Not only did they get stiffed on their original debt, the guy who managed shopfit was then forced to contact them by the new owners and ask if they wanted to work with 'NewCo'. The guy at our end was nearly in tears after a day of being told to go **** himself by people he'd know for decades. He also advised me not to be the last person in the office at night as some of these builders and shopfitters were also their own debt collectors, if you get my drift.
Not a good experience - the only people who came out of it in any way to the good were the consultants and lawyers who took a huge fee whilst working out which loopholes could be used to retain key stock suppliers whilst shafting others.
Let's hope PX can get this sorted in as ethical a way as possible, retain as many staff as possible and continue to trade. Given benpinnick's excellent post on the last page, though, I suspect it will be an uphill struggle.
With the exception of the MTB helmets which were a terrible fit on my bonce (although can't really blame Planet X for that one - I'm just weirdly-shaped it seems), I've never had a bad product from Planet X. If indeed administration beckons it'll be a big loss in the bike market, IMO.
Also no idea where else I'd buy my biking socks and base layers...
Just means the rest of the companies can continue ripping us off for bike parts and charging obscene prices compared to elsewhere in the world.
What similar world economies to ours have significantly cheaper prices than us for bike parts?
With the exception of the MTB helmets which were a terrible fit on my bonce (although can’t really blame Planet X for that one – I’m just weirdly-shaped it seems)
If you are, I am too. I do suspect their head model was Beaker from the Muppets. 😂
dint dave "this week I'm buying a load of sofas, because reasons" cash out about three years ago? that would coincide with a loss of mojo and downturn.
What similar world economies to ours have significantly cheaper prices than us for bike parts?
The US? Mainly because of our 20% VAT vs their much lower sales tax, which is 0% in some states
RRP on a Megatower here is £6349
In the US, $5899 which is £4753
https://www.jensonusa.com/SANTA-CRUZ-MEGATOWER-2-C-S-BIKE-12
Well my order from yesterday is with Royal Mail and I should have it tomorrow.
I've taken a punt on a helmet. Let's see how it fits! If it is OK for my lad too I'll get another.
If I had the money I'd be ordering a Kaffenback. 🙁
Here's a question, Can PX still have their their random sales whilst in administration?
Seeing PX and ethical in the same sentence has been my surprise of the day.
Shit time for the staff/trustees but one does wonder how much goodwill they've burnt over the years and if that's had any affect at all on sales.
@cookeaa I did get an email this morning with a sale on some stuff must end tonight. That might be administration related?
Worst customer service I’ve received from any company in a good while.
I once order a load of (64) c-xray spokes ... at 99p each.
They had misjudged stock or something and only had 63.
No sweat just refund me 99p and send the rest.... they then spent ages trying emails back and forth to get me to have any other spoke at 99p followed by me saying no thank you followed by the same again... eventually I think I just told them to keep the 99p.
landlords on the retail outlets, so limited scope for tears there.
apart from the fact that a lot of pension funds will likely be invested in them, if not the landlord per se.
I did get an email this morning with a sale on some stuff must end tonight. That might be administration related?
I doubt it, sales are they normal business operation. Its so a new sale can start tomorrow.
Here’s a question, Can PX still have their their random sales whilst in administration?
They can (and probably will - depending on the administrators' intention) have random sales during the administration. They just won't be PX's sales because the whole point of administrators is that the directors of the company have lost control. For them to continue to trade, knowing they can't meet their obligations is 'wrongful trading' and can wind up with prison sentences for directors.
Generally speaking the actual administrators have one goal - that is to extract as much worth from the company as possible to meet as many debts as possible. If you're sat on stock, that will generally mean some sort of fire sale. Where it gets murky is if, for example, a retailer is viable as a brand alone, but is saddled with expensive retail sites. In this case there may be some kind of prepack administration. I know that, legally, everyone has to be very careful as to their relationships because OldCo is going down and anyone owed money is unlikely to get paid. But everyone knows a NewCo is coming, but it will still need stock suppliers on side - hence my mention of (extremely dodgy IMO) ex gratia payments by the NewCo to those suppliers. The issue here is - why is a brand new company, with supposedly no ties to a bankrupt old company paying money to some suppliers of Oldco? If the relationship is completely new and arms length, what could those payments possibly be for? Etc.
Anyway, that is all probably TLDR. I imagine there will be some PX bargains available in the next few weeks.
Just make sure you pay by credit card as that will probably give you the most protection.
The amount must equal or be greater than £100.01 for section 75 to cover things.
that is a shame i have a planet x spitfire road bike which i love (my first planet x bike) and was planning on saving up for a tempest in the future.
hopefully they can keep going.
The amount must equal or be greater than £100.01 for section 75 to cover things.
It's not quite that simple - the amount for a SINGLE item must equal or be greater than £100.01 for section 75 to cover things. i.e you can't order 10 things at £11 and be covered still.
I've thought they've had a confused business for a long time, loads of seemingly random bike offerings that seem to cross over each other in terms of use
They seemed to ditch TT products when they were still popular, I would have had a frame and carbon wheels but seemed to stop doing them / have no stock for ages so I went with a boardman.
Same with the scandal, I wanted one, and for whatever reason it disappeared / out of stock for ages so I ended up with a scale on heavy discount, and the next 3 bikes have now been scotts.
I've been tempted by their gravel bikes for some time, but I'm tight on money these days and ride less, so can't justify new bikes since the huge price increases (across the board). I'm running my fleet until they bascially break as the fun budget hasn't increased with the price hikes., I'm sure many are in the same position
Some of the paint jobs are bloody awful, possibly part of the charm for some but put me right off!
The US? Mainly because of our 20% VAT vs their much lower sales tax, which is 0% in some states
RRP on a Megatower here is £6349
Santa Cruz Megatower Carbon C – S Kit
In the US, $5899 which is £4753
https://www.jensonusa.com/SANTA-CRUZ-MEGATOWER-2-C-S-BIKE-12/blockquote >
UK retailers have to charge VAT so not their fault. Still, the VAT adjusted price is therefore very close despite an additional intermediary and cost centre (the UK importer).
We were talking about parts anyway.
In the TT / Tri world, 10-12 years ago, a PX Stealth was seen everywhere, and PX would have a stand at big events.
It's more like 15-18 years ago now, IIRC Cadel Evans rode a repainted one for a couple of seasons (07/08 maybe), inc a TdF win, while his bike sponsor (Ridley IIRC?) was sorting stuff out for him.
Not bad for a £1k frame.
The issue here is – why is a brand new company, with supposedly no ties to a bankrupt old company paying money to some suppliers of Oldco? If the relationship is completely new and arms length, what could those payments possibly be for? Etc
...because why would a supplier extend credit to a NewCo with no credit history and wobbly management otherwise? Those payments don't make the position of other suppliers of OldCo any worse off.
^^^
Yeah, but if those payments just happen to match the value of oldco's trade debt...?
It was sort of a rhetorical question, TBH.
Pointless to witter on about newco/oldco in the context of PX as none of the few people who really know what's happening are talking.
I hope if there is a new owner they fix the image zoom bug that's been a 'feature' for donkeys years.
Click photo for bigger image... and the image gets smaller! 🙂
Pointless to witter on about newco/oldco in the context of PX as none of the few people who really know what’s happening are talking.
Agreed, although 'witter' is a bit argumentative. I suspect deliberately so, but life is too short to guess at people's motivations.
I only mentioned it in the first place because of people asking questions around 'usual random sales' and other context.
Clearly PX won't be the same as the one I experienced because they don't have tens of onerous leases on retail parks.
I won't witter any more on this - unless I think I can provide an answer to a question.
Planet-X aside, there's no mention above of the prime driver of a great many company insolvencies and what is by far and away the greatest loser in these situations; the exchequer. The last in line creditor is always the state now that the preferred creditor legislation has been removed by successive governments, only interested in the lobbying of self serving business owners. Phoenixism is a major problem and always creates victims while advisers and owners make a killing.
So, companies fold and tax is lost. Time and time again, the directors and shareholders walk away with what is effectively the value they have acquired at the expense of the public purse. Corporation tax, VAT, PAYE & NICs all lost while supply chain relationships are protected and the little guys, as above, get shafted too. The legislation is framed in such a way as to facilitate this, not discourage it. Grrr...
…because why would a supplier extend credit to a NewCo with no credit history and wobbly management otherwise? Those payments don’t make the position of other suppliers of OldCo any worse off.
Thats basically often the deal - you have some suppliers you need/want, some you're happy to burn, and the tax man. You agree to the suppliers you like to make payments outside of your actual supply agreement in order to settle the debts you ran up (while managing old co) and you burn everyone else. Worth noting that this comment has no bearing / relationship to whats happening at Planet X, only that Ive seen it before.
^^^^
Indeed. But the point (but often pretence) of an administration is that there is no legal connection between oldco and newco - otherwise the suppliers who have been burned could come after newco if it makes some profit.
For newco to then, effectively, settle oldco's debts for suppliers it needs and not others is extremely iffy IMO.
However, another flipside is that Newco can provide employment rather than getting rid of everyone. After they have been TUPE'd across and often lost out on some benefits and pensions.
It is a messy area that often relies on the pretence of one thing ending cleanly and another thing starting cleanly - a contradiction in terms.
So, companies fold and tax is lost. Time and time again, the directors and shareholders walk away with what is effectively the value they have acquired at the expense of the public purse.
Yep - was going to say something similar - there's a local garage that seems to do this every few years, different directors but the same people in control, major creditor always HMRC. Once you can perhaps forgive, but when it becomes a pattern you'd think HMRC would also take notice.
Based on what's been said above though I'd doubt it's the case here, more likely the lendors and suppliers have called time.
It didn't end at all well for Moore Large, but hopefully Planet X can return minus the tat and confused brand/model mix, as they definitely sold some gems. Oddly in the Moore Large case their John Pye auction stock liquidation seemed to get pretty solid prices - most of what I looked at seemed to go for >50% RRP before JP+VAT's 30%, so probably not too far off trade price for them in essence. Seemed to me that if they could have disposed of the stock at those prices before calling the receivers in they may have survived. Similar situation in many ways as I think that was an MBO a few years ago. (And although Moore Large were definitely more at the BSO end of the spectrum, they had some gems in the line up too - their CX stuff was decent in particular).
However, another flipside is that Newco can provide employment rather than getting rid of everyone. After they have been TUPE’d across and often lost out on some benefits and pensions.
True - although so often you see "X jobs saved at Y" headline conveniently not mentioning the creditors left out of pocket.
True – although so often you see “X jobs saved at Y” headline conveniently not mentioning the creditors left out of pocket.
That's particularly prevalent when the company in question is a major(ish) local employer. It is not uncommon for political pressure to be brought to bear in the case of bigger administrations.
But that is general. Let's hope PX can extricate themselves from this mess with a slimmed down offering. They did good work around acquiring the spare frames that resulted from the Sick! Bikes fiasco - so hopefully a bit of karma? Although, I understand they pee'd a lot of customers off over the years, I never had an issue with them.
I had a flat bar Uncle John when commuting in Switzerland which was brilliant to ride - tough as nails and weatherproof.
The only customer-related issue i had was when the back wheel of my newly bought Tempest fell apart and no ones was answering the phones, so i drove up to Rotherham (round trip 400 miles) and asked them to fix it and they replaced the bike. Been great ever since.
You agree to the suppliers you like to make payments outside of your actual supply agreement in order to settle the debts you ran up (while managing old co) and you burn everyone else.
It doesn't burn anyone else. The money for NewCo to buy the confidence of suppliers is new money - it's not reducing the assets of OldCo. NewCo paying this key money to restart the business doesn't make OldCo any more or less ****ed.
Moaning about phoenixing in the context of a company owned by an employee ownership trust just isn't called for.
Moaning about phoenixing in the context of a company owned by an employee ownership trust just isn’t called for.
Unless you're one of the suppliers 'burned' whilst a stock supplier ends up not out of pocket, of course.
There are always losers in an administration because 99 times out of 100 the administration is because the company can't pay money it owes to someone.
Oh, and it absolutely cannot be phrased as 'restarting'. That implies it is a continuation of Oldco and Oldco owes money.
The nasty taste is caused by the idea that a company can walk away from its debts then reappear five minutes later having shafted a selection of its creditors. That is why the pretence that Newco is a totally different entity to Oldco.
The majority of those owed will (or, should) have credit insurance so, whilst not ideal, they won’t be losing all their money.
Planet x and on one haven't gone yet, they may still survive.
Oh, and it absolutely cannot be phrased as ‘restarting’. That implies it is a continuation of Oldco and Oldco owes money.
You are confusing the business and the company. The business carries on. The company dies.
Planet x and on one haven’t gone yet, they may still survive.
Hopefully.
I've just put in a decent sized order for all the good value clothing I like, to have a stock in case they do go under.
Never had any problems with planet-x.
With the warehouse, staff, and possibly some vans, they could have diversified into house clearances, etc?
The business is the activity, the company is merely a vessel for it.
I don't think it will be edifying for anyone for two pseudonymous posters to get into appeals to authority on this.
The nasty taste is caused by the idea that a company can walk away from its debts then reappear five minutes later having shafted a selection of its creditors.
If you're that bothered, write to your MP - this is legislation enacted by (various) Govts.
Moaning about phoenixing in the context of a company owned by an employee ownership trust just isn’t called for.
Quoting someone while conveniently leaving out the next sentence where it's stated that the comment isn't made in the context of the company owned by an employee ownership trust isn't called for.
If you’re that bothered, write to your MP – this is legislation enacted by (various) Govts.
I'm not that bothered, but it still isn't great.
The legislation is, basically to preserve jobs as a headline by allowing a certain amount of can kicking. There will always be pain - this is about the dishing out of that pain.
In many cases, the jobs that are preserved are degraded vs the original as employees need to TUPE if there is a change of company. It gets really messy and nasty if there are defined benefit pension schemes knocking about.
The unfairness of the prepack/phoenix administration is that the creditors who get shafted are the ones that aren't absolutely vital to the NewCo. These tend to be the small ones - shopfitters being the prime example in the one I went through. Sure, their loss was probably in the tens rather than hundreds of thousands, but that would be a massive hit in relative terms. Meanwhile the stock suppliers (no stock = no newco), were seen right by Newco.
Anyway - PX won't be to do with over-extending itself site-wise with onerous leases. It is going to be, largely, sales and stock related, I would think - presumably with HMRC as a major creditor.
Let's hope PX can re-emerge. As I said above, they have mostly been excellent for me. Please just no more weird shaped helmets or bikes where the seat/top tube brace is longer than it is high(!) 🤢
Quoting someone while conveniently leaving out the next sentence where it’s stated that the comment isn’t made in the context of the company owned by an employee ownership trust isn’t called for.
Selective quoting is a bit of a stock in trade on STW - a lot of folk seem to be here just for the lolz. 🤷♂️
Guys I was about to send some returns to P-X
Utterly pointless I guess?
Tricky one - send it back and take a punt or hang on until the dust settles and risk missing out.
Returns really is a tricky area. If you return goods, do you just become another creditor and join the queue? Not 100% sure on that one TBH.
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
Guys I was about to send some returns to P-X
Utterly pointless I guess?
</div>
If you paid by credit card, and return under distance selling regs, maybe section 75 applies? (if it's >£100) ie the CC company might sort you out.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/section75-protect-your-purchases/
says it applies if you "Bought something on credit from a seller that's gone bust." ... which still leaves some questions as to whether that applies here, but it might I suppose. Call your CC company.
If not I'd be amazed if you get anything from PX.
if they're in administration, it's not their money any more to return - so, yeah 🤷♂️If not I’d be amazed if you get anything from PX.
Strike off action has been discontinued - see companies house website.
As is usual, there is no further/supporting information in the public domain.
Wow!
I will miss their socks
And it was an Inbred 456 that got me back into mountain biking.
Sad to see them go - and the jobs associated
Strike off action has been discontinued – see companies house website.
As is usual, there is no further/supporting information in the public domain.
Strike off action was due to them not filing a confirmation statement. That had nothing to do with the administration process.
It's this you should be looking at - https://caseboard.io/cases/7c9cda66-5c6e-42bc-ac84-06b024a9216f
Anyway – PX won’t be to do with over-extending itself site-wise with onerous leases. It is going to be, largely, sales and stock related, I would think – presumably with HMRC as a major creditor.
Possibly, but am I wrong in thinking that they had some Private Equity backing? Those guys often highly leverage their investments so actually there's a huge debt element, which may have been tied to base rates and is now crippling. If the company isn't looking rosy and they don't see a way to get their money back quickly the vultures circle and rip it apart - taking whatever assets they've secured their loan against to mitigate their losses. If HMRC were the largest creditor the business was being mismanaged as PAYE and VAT are only due after the event for a consumer business like this and input VAT can be reclaimed from the moment of invoice so HMRC doesn't cause a cashflow issue.
