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I've just spotted this on PB and it appears there's a bit of a rift at Ineos - anyone know any details?
I'd love to see him on a different team as I hate Ineos (the company and owner) and all they stand for and find it hard to get excited when TP is riding for them. Be nice to see him on a proper mountainbike for a change.
it appears there’s a bit of a rift at Ineos – anyone know any details?
Nah, but their management seem to have lost the plot and he seems hugely talented but a bit prickly, so sparks were bound to fly.
He's always gonna be more of a one-day, classics and possibly week-long stage race rider though eh?
Maybe he wants to do more than just road race so his focus isn't just on that and ineos maybe want him as their road leader...
Apparently he can be a bit annoying (I suspect you would have to be to get that good and stay that good), but perhaps both sides are rubbing the other up the wrong way and things aren't working out quite so well just now...
Don't think anyone knows details other than he must be leaving, as deselecting him like that (for Lombardia) is scorched earth policy (plus clear discontent all season).
r/peloton speculation was that Ineos didn't want to pay a performance bonus to a departing rider, and he had a decent chance of a podium at the weekend. But take that for what it is worth.
Not sure we'll see too much of him on a proper mountain bike - he sounded like he was prepared to up his focus on the road last he spoke, because it is so difficult to win there.
The bits I've read suggest that there's friction between him and Stannard which is part of it.
From various reports the past couple of years he seems to be anything but a team player and is only interested in his own results.
He's a great CX and MTB racer and has some talent in one day races but I can't ever see him being a GC rider no matter which team he's riding with. It'll probably be best for both parties if him and INEOS part ways.
My speculation.......
Ineos want a GC contender. TP is not going to fulfil that position with the opposition that he has plus the fact that he wants to focus on other key races (inc MTB).
More speculation. He probably earns an awful lot of money, probably the highest earner in Ineos. I would summise that Ineos would prefer to spend the wage on a genuine GC contender.
I really like how TP races, but in my view he would be better suited on a French or Belgium team. I don't think he should focus solely on road.
And my speculation from TP's perspective, while Ineos have allowed him to race all sorts of different formats, they don't really come across as being fully supportive of one day races. Possibly also don't have the overall firepower to support GC rider either.
He's heading onto Bora Hansgrohe SSSSSSHHHHHHH
Be nice to see him on a proper mountainbike for a change.
If he goes anywhere else I reckon he’ll not race a mountain bike again. He’s already said it’s too hard to do a full cross/mtb/road program. The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.
The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.
Maybe he's put away a few quid to allow him to be what he says he really is - a mountain biker who does a bit of road riding.
He’s always gonna be more of a one-day, classics and possibly week-long stage race rider though eh?
I agree.
As for Ineos they definitely seem to have lost the plot. I suspect that Jim, having got into football and yachting, has fallen out of love with cycling.
The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.
That's true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he's going to be an also-ran, surely?
He's being paid a lot of money to race on the road for someone who's won five races in his Pro Tour career. If you look at him dispassionately, he's not really developed as a rider since he joined the team, which is fine, but I suspect his contract was based on his potential, which he isn't fulfilling - he's not remotely on a par with WvA or MvP who are the obvious comparisons.
On top of that, he seems totally focussed on himself, has his own, silohed support team, isn't a team player. He rode a mtb world cup round the weekend before the Tour. Came out and said that only he would decide his role there etc. He's clearly very talented, but he's being paid - anecdotally - a top tour leader's salary to race mountain bikes. Arguably that's INEOS' fault for agreeing to pay him over the odds in the first place and maybe his obvious selfishness is fuelled partly by the idea that he's 'worth it', but there you go.
But basically, he's being overpaid on the basis of being quite good and British, but for the money he's on, he should be van Aert or VdP, he's not and INEOS, which is basically a Grand Tour team would be better off spending the money they pay him on someone who'll boost their GC chances. On top of that, who knows what's gone on behind the scenes. People are people and fall out over stupid stuff etc.
If he can find someone else prepared to pay him GC leader money to basically thrash a lot of low-paid mountain bikers whenever he gets bored then good luck to him. Over-rated, mostly by himself.
Ineos aren't going to win a grand tour for a few years but they can't get their heads around doing anything else
and
Pidcock is not an easy character
I can't see him beating Pogacar or Vingegaard in a 3 week race, or beating Evenpoel in a week race or even Pog and Evenpoel in most classics. And then there are two other very very good one day racers who I wouldn't see him beating in most classic/monuments.
Its always a strange conundrum, TP is an awesome bike racer, just not quite up there with the very best on the road. Its small margins, but there is a small gap between him and the very best.
That’s true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he’s going to be an also-ran, surely?
He's very opportunistic though, that is a definite point in his favour plus he's got the beginnings / hints of a really solid palmares potential.
I guess the issue is whether Ineos (or any team) wants an opportunistic stage hunter riding for himself rather than a team player who'll go with a defined plan (even if that plan doesn't come to fruition).
Some of the smaller teams, the ones that come to the Tour with no expectation of anything other than a bit of breakaway time and a potential lucky stage win might be ideal for him. Less pressure, a chance to race as a bit of a lone wolf.
Again, just speculating. Commentators were saying during the Grand Tours that maybe the days of the breakaway were over because they routinely got chased down (by accident or design) and then Pogacar went off and won. Again.
If he goes anywhere else I reckon he’ll not race a mountain bike again.
Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That's kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that's where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don't know by the way, it's kind of a rhetorical question.
And well said BadlyWiredDog, agree with what you have said.
BadlyWiredDog
Over-rated, mostly by himself.
Multiple World Championships across various disciplines say he's definitely not over rated. The sheer ability to rock up at any MTB race he choses and wipe the floor with everyone should demonstrate that.
I don't get and don't follow road at all but it does appear that Ineos have not managed to figure out how to get him to be a GC rider. Maybe being small requires a different setup?
Road racing is a team sport. In MTB team mates can have a much more luke warm relationship. TP strikes me as better in that environment. Or triathlon.
That’s true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he’s going to be an also-ran, surely?
He doesn’t even stand a chance of beating them unless he focuses 100% on being a grand tour gc rider.
Or triathlon.
That's a bit low 🙂
Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That’s kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that’s where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don’t know by the way, it’s kind of a rhetorical question.
Maybe the ideal set-up is a big bike brand sponsor like Spesh or Trek who see the value in him winning XC on their bike, and also sponsor a World Tour team that he can do the Classics and stage hunting you mention for.
If the above rumour about Bora Hansgrohe is correct, they are on Spesh - so they could be contributing more than usual towards his salary with the XC in mind.
Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That’s kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that’s where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don’t know by the way, it’s kind of a rhetorical question.
That's a bit like saying "He's won the Rugby Superleague cup, so why doesn't he just go play football for Manchester United". Almost completely different sports and one is much bigger and more lucrative than the other. Most decent MTB talent ends up racing on the road because you can make more money as a mediocre continental tour team domestique than winning MTB races. Hence when someone does do both (Pidcock, Peter Sagan, Lachlan Morton) they tend to be absolutely dominant off-road in the few races they do turn up to because they're in a different league.
I don’t get and don’t follow road at all but it does appear that Ineos have not managed to figure out how to get him to be a GC rider. Maybe being small requires a different setup?
GC requires insane W/Kg (Pidcock - check) AND the ability to repeat it day in day out in the high mountains - you can't even have a bad 15 minutes. Pidcock hasn't really shown the second thing at all. It also requires a good TT which he hasn't ridden with any seriousness in recent years. A team who don't think you're a complete **** also helps.
It's possible he could massively improve GC, with complete road focus, but Vin and Pog are similar in age and Pog in particular is the literal GoaT. So the incentives are not completely clear for Pidcock as far as GC goes - he'd be trying to win the Vuelta, or the TdF if both Vin and Pog were ill. He is likely to have far more success in one day races where he has proven he can win, if he concentrates fully on the road.
Q36.5 have also been mentioned. I think that would mean he stays on pinarello bikes as well.
Managing talented athletes is always challenging and it looks like Ineos and Pidcock have decided to move on. Not sure why he couldn’t just do what he does already, maybe he’s burnt his bridges.
Most decent MTB talent ends up racing on the road because you can make more money as a mediocre continental tour team domestique than winning MTB races. Hence when someone does do both (Pidcock, Peter Sagan, Lachlan Morton) they tend to be absolutely dominant off-road in the few races they do turn up to because they’re in a different league.
Yep, and it was the same with MvdP in CX last year, he won almost every race.
I mean, I know they're different, I was just kind of wondering aloud / on screen about how much he *wants* to pick and choose vs how much he's being *allowed* to pick and choose.
It's always seen as fairly high risk, letting your star roadies go off and do MTBing cos of the greater chance they'll break themselves...
Multiple World Championships across various disciplines say he’s definitely not over rated. The sheer ability to rock up at any MTB race he choses and wipe the floor with everyone should demonstrate that.
I meant he's over-rated on the road. The. guys racing elite level mountain bike aren't paid anything like the amount he makes, but the reason he's paid that money is that he is - or was - seen as someone with the potential too rival the likes or WvA or MvdP on the road. I'm not saying he's not a very talented rider, he clearly is, but the fact that he's won five elite level races tells you that he's not on the same level as, say van Aert, who has over 30 wins including 9 Tour de France stage victories.
He's being paid as if he can rock up at any road races he chooses and 'wipe the floor with everyone', but right now he's either not good enough to do that, chooses not to - unlikely - or is maybe not focussed enough on his road career to maximise his obvious ability. He can both be very good at riding bikes, but also not a good fit for the team he's riding for, if he's not prepared to apply his talent in a way they want.
Sure, he wants to race loads of different stuff and enjoy it, but part of being paid well is accepting that you also have obligations as a result. Hopefully he'll find a team who'll pay him the big bucks and allow him to race across different disciplines and be happy doing it. Nothing against Tom Pidcock at all, he's a cracking rider, but if you're asking why INEOS seems to want rid, then it's probably something along those lines. They're not a mountain bike team basically.
He’s a very strong one-day rider on a poor team focused on GC to his cost. He’d have done better somewhere where he’d have a team working to get him into the right breaks on grand tour stages and tearing up classics on his behalf. Ineos is a bin fire at the moment and that’s not Pidcock’s fault.
Maybe the ideal set-up is a big bike brand sponsor like Spesh or Trek who see the value in him winning XC on their bike, and also sponsor a World Tour team that he can do the Classics and stage hunting you mention for.
You mean like MvdP and Canyon. It was a major part of his early road contracts. Not sure how connected it is now he's fully established as someone who can pretty much guarantee a result whenever he pins a number on.
Doesn’t he already have that bike brand relationship with Pinarello
Maybe, but Pinarello can't really expect to leverage his XC success into bike sales and revenue in the same way that Spesh could.
You mean like MvdP and Canyon
Probably yeah, he's a great asset for a company that's really strong in road and MTB bikes.
I wonder if PFP's departure from Ineos to VLaB is indicative of Ineos not working at the moment, or just coincidence. Perhaps ineos are dropping the MTB piece of the picture so neither TP or PVP fit anymore?
It's a shame that Ineos haven't been able to make something happen for perhaps the most exciting UK bike racer of the moment. Not sure that they've ever really had a plan for him. Is that TP wanting to ride XC as well as road. Or is it Ineos have lost their way? (they don't seem to be getting the most out of Hayter and Tarling either). But back in Sky plumage, they couldn't make it work for Cav either, and he did much better elsewhere.
I would think Q36.5 is a bad move w no grand tours on their calendar this next year, and RBBHG more likely to have something going for him.
And Q36.5 currently use Scott bikes.
Isn't he already an RB athlete?
I'm not sure that 2 Olympics over 3 summers has done his road career any favours as he's not been fully focussed on the road meaning he's tended to do fewer race days than your average rider, and then a chunk of those are preparation races. I reckon with more dedication to the road discipline, which Pidcock himself has said he needs, and a bit more experience at the pointy end of races he has definite scope for improvement.
That being said, I can't really see him as a GC rider. The idea of trying to turn him into a grand tour rider when he's never even got top ten in a world tour stage race seems daft given his one-day results.
He's said in an interview last month that he's unlikely to ride a mountain bike next year-
I can only imagine he's off to another team.
That being said, I can’t really see him as a GC rider. The idea of trying to turn him into a grand tour rider when he’s never even got top ten in a world tour stage race seems daft given his one-day results.
Sky / Ineos turned Bradley Wiggins and Geraint Thomas from track-focused riders to Grand Tour winners. There's plenty of cases of riders mixing things up and/or changing their focus; equally plenty of cases where riders focus on one thing. Chris Hoy for example was never going to be a roadie or a MTBer, he's a true track sprint specialist but Mark Cavendish very successfully mixed track and road.
MvdP and WvA mix road and CX, Sagan mixed road and MTB, Lachlan Morton did (for a while) mix road and gravel before going off to do his own adventure racing stuff (which EF seem to be fully supporting and indeed monetising!)
It's certainly do-able, I just think it requires huge amounts of commitment and buy-in from everyone concerned. And if one half of the partnership isn't buying into that, there's going to be friction.
PFP wants to ride road, Ineos don't have a women's road team. I think she's retired from MTB.
EDIT - yes, that was always her plan. https://www.bicycling.com/news/a60960617/pauline-ferrand-prevot-to-retire-from-mountain-biking-to-focus-on-road/
It’s a shame that Ineos haven’t been able to make something happen for perhaps the most exciting UK bike racer of the moment. Not sure that they’ve ever really had a plan for him. Is that TP wanting to ride XC as well as road. Or is it Ineos have lost their way? (they don’t seem to be getting the most out of Hayter and Tarling either). But back in Sky plumage, they couldn’t make it work for Cav either, and he did much better elsewhere.
Hayter has gone to quickstep as of next season. He was actually Pidcock's replacement at the weekend (he DNF'd), so presumably is leaving on better terms.
Hayter is exceptionally strong but has gotten a bit lost with his positioning in the peloton - change of scenery and hopefully some wins will get him back on track. Remco struggled with this initially, current Belgian champion De Lie is a work in progress in this dept - it's just hard as balls to navigate the pro peloton in a WT race.
Tarling is 20 y/o and looking amazing tbh - one of the few things Ineos have got right recently.
Tarling is 20 y/o and looking amazing tbh – one of the few things Ineos have got right recently.
He's clearly an incredible talent but listening to his recent interviews makes you wonder how much support he getting with the mental aspects. He sounds completely beaten up already.
Ineos appear to be a sinking ship.
I'm friends with a recently retired pro who knows a few people in and around the Ineos set-up. He's told me that basically, it's all gone to pot since Dave B and Rod Ellingworth stepped away. Too many decision makers, no clear direction and no long term plans or strategies. He said the biggest sign is that Luke Rowe, someone who was always going to be a great DS and had been earmarked for a leadership role in the team once he retires, has left to be a DS at Decathlon AG2R La Mondiale.
Steve Cummings is, politely, a very difficult person to work with and not someone Dave B would have ever hired either.
On Pidcock, again, he's a difficult character, though no worse than many others, and apparently they don't really know what to do with him. He (again, apparently) wants to target the classics, some CX and some MTB, where Ineos see/saw GC potential in him so pushed him that way. This is largely what's forced him to move.
@crazy-legs. You make good points regarding Thomas and Wiggins, Thomas especially was a formidable one-day rider before he turned into a GC man, but he also showed he had the stage-race fatigue resistance as a domestique before he made that transition. And Wiggins was always a formidable TTer which Pidcock isn't. MVDP and WVA are both multi-disciplinary, but they're not targetting GC. I just can't see it for a 60kg guy like Pidcock, although Bardet has a number of grand tour podia to prove me wrong. I was also factually incorrect about his 1-week results as he has several top tens this season alone, albeit several minutes down on GC on them all by the end.
However he's already won Amstel (some say twice, the one that never was "beating" WVA) and Strade, so he could conceivably win a monument if he focusses on one-day racing. If I were him I'd be going that way rather than chasing grand tours.
Radcliffe bought at top of the market and it's all falling apart, which isn't helped by the fact that Visma et al have caught and overtaken them organisationally (and literally on the road). Problem is that road bike racing fans aren't bothered about teams, they are rider focused. I don't bame TP for going but I hope Tarling doesn't get wasted
Hayter is exceptionally strong but has gotten a bit lost with his positioning in the peloton – change of scenery and hopefully some wins will get him back on track.
Ethan Hayter, yes.
Ineos also lost the very talented Leo Hayter who had a really bad patch with mental health issues and depression - he posted quite openly about it on his blog and social media after a long period of coming to terms with it. Hopefully he's on the mend now but it's another crack in the Ineos armour losing a rider like Leo.
I just can’t see it for a 60kg guy like Pidcock,
Guess what Jonas Vingegaard weighs... yes, 60kg. He'll never be competitive on GC either 🙂
where Ineos see/saw GC potential in him so pushed him that way
Have Sky/Ineos ever seen anything else? Do I remember Cav delivering water bottles and surfing wheels in sprint finales at the height of his powers in World Champion’s stripes?
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same
And the way TP can just turn up and win means it pretty sure he could/should/would be world number one for a pretty long time
Probably about €2.5m difference between a top XC rider and a GC/ high end road team leader.
I’d like to see TP on a DH bike in the off-season. Just for the s&g.
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same
I think between XC and cyclo-cross he'd do pretty well for himself and maybe give him a bit more fun. I'm sure he's thought of it more than once, but I guess something stops him.
His road problem is, if Pogi is racing, we'll he's P2, if Pogi ain't there he's got WvA turning up, or MvdP, or even Remco.
Sure on his best days he can play with them guys, but I think he needs to leave ineos to get back to his form as he's lost his punch he had from slimming down too much for GC stuff. I'd say a new team who see him as a Classics man would suit him better, or the XC one.
Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here. He's never going to be a Pog or Grand Tour rider and he's not going to be as prolific as MvDP or Wout but he has already won some decent races as well as World Cross champ, and MTB Olympics etc. Yes his problem is Pog but Pog is everyone's problem. He can beat the likes of Remco, Wout or MvDP with some luck and the right parcours.
Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here.
But for the salary he's on it's not a good enough return, he's won some big races but not followed those up with enough others. And whilst he's not a fully formed GC rider he's not willing to do the leg work and support a team leader. G & Froome both did it to learn the ropes, WvA does it, MvDP does it. All of them were/are significantly more prolific.
He's clearly not at the Pog, Rog, Vingo, Remco, WvA or MvDP level but I'm not sure he's even at the level below that. When Ineos brought him in it was that he would develop to be there and, bluntly, he hasn't. Whether that's his fault or their's is not clear but he's well down the pecking order in terms of road wins even in Ineos over the last few years.
TP isn't competing with Ving and Rog.... he's not a GC rider in the grand tours. He's lower top 10 at best .... maybe with the right combination of luck he's an outside bet for a Vuelta podium.
He's stated that he wants to focus on the road in the next few years. Problem 1=Pogacar turns up then you're racing for 2nd currently. Problem 2=MvDP, WvA and Remco are all insanely good too, what an era for the casual observer. Problem 3=Ineos are a sinking ship. Problem 4= G on his podcast reckons that Pidcock is surrounded by the wrong people.
A combination of problems 3 and 4 means that it's time to leave Ineos. Hard to see where he goes though? These rumours about Q36.5....if you're focussing on the road, then you'd be mad to swap Ineos for a team that haven't ridden a grand tour and have barely featured in the few monuments that they've been invited to.
As to why he's doing road..... what's the highest paid XC racer on? 100k? This forum has a hilarious obsession with Nino Schurter currently (he's one of my all time fav athletes fwiw!). Road salary, he's on what £2 million per year? Maybe more..... it's night and day.
Would Quickstep be a good fit? Have they got room?
Ineos appear to be a sinking ship.
Various rumours swirling that they won't exist at all in the next couple of years - although I suspect some of it is media dredging up all manner of speculation and asking any random cycling pundit (and in this case, washed up former manager who oversaw the Lance Years!) probing questions and potentially knitting the answers of 2 and 2 together to give 6¾...
A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that?
Money. He's paid - or overpaid if you see it like that - a top road rider's salary, which is massively more than any pro mtber earns.
I ikeep pointing out that he's won only five times on the road during his INEOS career and people say, but, but, but... he won a Tour stage, a classic or two, an Olympic gold medal and world champs on a mountain bike and that he keeps saying he wants to focus on the road, but the mountain bike thing s a bit like Lewis Hamilton turning up to a Le Man 24-race and wiping the floor with a bunch of guys who aren't quite at the same level, which is an exaggeration of course, but the general principle holds.
If you can be arsed to go back over previous interviews, he's always going to f'ocus on the road next year', but he's also - as is his coach - on record as saying he wants to race across disciplines and that's what keeps him motivated. Which is fair enough, that seems to be how he's wired., short attention span, not engaged when not racing for the win, not a great team player. Where it gets messy is the bit where INEOS - whatever you think of the company and the team - pays him lots of money mostly based on potential on the road, but his take seems to be that he will decide, for example, what his role at the Tour de France is going to be.
Do you tell your employer - assuming you have one - what you're going to do even when they're paying you to do something else?
As Vingegaard shows, a lightweight, physiologically-gifted rider can be a GC winner, but it takes focus and dedicated training to that goal. That doesn't mean Pidcock could do the same, but you suspect that's the gamble INEOS took when they agreed to pay him a shedload of money. If he was winning loads of one-day races regularly, that might be less of an issue, but really he's not and you have to think that the dissonance between what he's paid to do in INEOS's view and what he and his immediate support-team actually does/wants to do is what's at the heart of this.
He's a super-talented rider and should be with a team that wants him to race across the board - EF maybe or maybe the Q 36.5 outfit - and be happy and supported doing that. Whether another team can afford to pay him the big bucks to do that remains to be seen, maybe he takes a pay-cut to follow his passions, maybe it's a grass is always greener thing. For INEOS it reminds me of Mikel Artteta at Arsenal shedding talented players who didn't fit with his vision and, if one their young guns breaks through next season, no-one outside the British cycling media will be talking about Pidcock.
TLDR: him leaving INEOS is probably going to be the best course for both parties, but he may have to accept that he makes less dosh elsewhere. None of which means he's not very, very talented. He does win races, but arguably not enough to justify the amount he's paid and not the races - grand tours - that INEOS really, really wants to win.
no recaro seats I heard
A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…
No idea what you are on about TBH.
I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result, although since looking this up I also saw that Ganna won a TT at giro too but then his season fizzed out fast too
I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he's had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.
I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he’s had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.
That would be a good thing i think. They've totally lost their way. They've gone from a team battling for everything to a team you look at and think "no chance" at 99% of times they line up. They don't even look like threatening in races, let alone winning them. They're pretty anonymous now and need a complete rethink on riders, tactics, events, everything. Something clearly isn't working at the whole team.
Even teams like Tudor, UnoX etc have realistically taken them to task now and if you're sitting watching you rarely even consider the the "oh he could....." when an INEOS guy does actually turn up.
I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result,
You could argue that Narvaez beating Pogacar on the opening hill-top finish of the Giro and taking pink isn't a bad result, particularly when the Ecuadorian gets paid a shedload less than Pidcock. But that's not really the point. No-one's saying Pidcock's not a very good rider on his day, just that his performances are apparently out of proportion to his pay and that maybe he's not the best fit for INEOS or vice versa.
Sure, you can use it as a stick to beat INEOS, but isn't all the fuss and the inflated salary mostly because he's British? If he were, say, Belgian, no-one would be particularly bothered. Meanwhile INEOS has leaked top talent like a sieve, Carapaz for example, AdamYates, Landa, Danny Martinez, Sivakov, Tao GH etc without replacing them with a really competitive GC leader.
Arguably their best result this year wasn't Pidock winning Amstel Gold, or Narvaez's stage win, it was Geraint Thomas finishing on the podium at the Giro, because ultimately grand tour racing and winning the Tour in particular is their priority. And that, again, is why Pidcock's not a great fit maybe.
As someone else has already said above, following the departure of certain key management figures has created a lack of team direction, which has had a massive impact on results. Couple that with the fact that Ineos are now nowhere near the big money team they once were means they just don’t have the ability to compete at the top as they once did.
By the way, this is all on an episode of Watts Occurring, so from the horses mouth, so to speak.
Lack of direction and management support has a very negative impact on riders like Pidcock & the Hayters; they’re winners but also need a team to support them. Riders like Pog, WvA & Vingegaard are the exception not the rule, so comparisons have only limited utility.
People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.
Another example is Philipo Ganna… what’s he achieved this year? He used to be a sure bet at any TT. He looks unmotivated to say the least. He’s a born winner, but why isn’t he winning every TT? He looks like he’s lost weight, so I do wonder if they were continuing their GC obsession by trying to get him to climb better. Maybe not as a GC contender but possibly to perform a specific role akin to the phenomenal role that Rohan Dennis performed for them a few years ago.
With regard to TP leaving, he’s already a Red Bull sponsored rider so Bora seems the obvious direction to me.
I agree with that, I was simply pointing out that for many winning Amstel Gold is a top result, not everyone can be a Pog or MVdP His results this season in a malfunctioning team are not bad at all.
As I said I have no idea what he is paid. He should move away but where his focus lies is tricky. He won't beat the likes of MVdP or Wout often in the power classics and he will not beat Pog in the hillier classics and he's not a grand tour gc rider.
As I said I have no idea what he is paid.
2.7 million euros from Ineos.
People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.
What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?
What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?
In simple terms, when he's been in positions where he's strong, like the Strade Bianchi, he's had very little in the way of team-mates next to him helping with attacks. Same with some of the GC stages he's looked good in.
So for me he's not either getting the right team-mates, they don't give a shit about him or they're not good enough for the job....
All of that is pretty critical of course, but that's a brutal overview.
I’ve got no idea… I’m a bloke on the internet.
My point is that to focus solely upon Pidcock’s results or him being “difficult”, or him riding other events away from the road, all in isolation, is blinkered, there’s much more going on in that team & it has had a measurable impact on results for many of its riders, not just Pidcock.
Edit: Weeksy has a good point. I mean, look at his late entry to Paris Roubaix… he got 17th in a race that should not suit someone of his size. The next placed Ineos rider was Conor Swift, who is arguably (physically speaking) more suited to that race, & he was minutes down in 30 odd place. Where was his support? Most of the team dropped out.
Ineos' goal is seemingly grand tours, seems Tom is not a good fit for that even if they sorted everything else out.
Clearly Le Tour is the pinnacle of pro riding from a team point of view. But how does everything else rank? Is a Monument better than the Vuelta?
Riding a one week tour-of-somewhere-I'd-struggle-to-put-on-a-map is good practise for riders and teams with Grand Tour aspirations but can't be a sponsor favourite compared to a spring classic.
Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn't bothering attending - suggesting it could be a good course for TP.
Tom seems to be (and I'm speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender. Even his Tour stage win was a random individual effort which probably hindered the GC effort rather than helped it?
It does seem to fit nicely with riding a select targeted program of CX, XC and one day races. MVDP made a good run of doing just that prior to 2021.
Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn’t bothering attending – suggesting it could be a good course for TP.
Is Pogi not going ?
Tom seems to be (and I’m speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender.
I think Bernard Hinault would disagree with the aggressive selfish elements not being compatible (and a lot of the big gt winners were selfish racers).
they don’t give a shit about him
I’m not sure being a domestique is a career where you can decide to lead the team leader hanging - there’s plenty of competition for contracts so sabotaging a team’s race isn’t going to go well at your mid-season personal development review meeting 🙂
Going on UCI points for Ineos this year according to pro cycling stats
Rodriguez winning Romandie and 7th in the tour: 500 and 425 respectively
Thomas Giro podium: 750
Amstel win and tdf stage 2nd: 500 and 150
Which is interesting from 2 perspectives:
(1) Rodriguez is Ineos' best change at GC, forget TP, if that's what they want they should go all in for Carlos.
(2) Focusing on 1 day races pays in terms of points, if it pays in terms of TV time etc is another matter.
(1) Rodriguez is Ineos’ best change at GC, forget TP, if that’s what they want they should go all in for Carlos.
Only if 5-6 other riders are not there