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Looks like Pidcock was almost a bike length in front when other chap tried to turn into his back wheel to me. Bad wording by the Beeb too suggesting that Pidcock 'appeared to make contact'. Luca's racecraft just not up to scratch.
Go to 2:22 in the video for the incident.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/66469071
Hmm. I dunno, Pidcock clearly coming in very hot as he can't hold the inside line (although I suppose it's remotely possible that the contact precluded that), however even I don't leave the door open like that when it's tight - just asking to be divebombed, so yeah, racing incident.
Racing incident, GCN showed a better angle.
Obviously been taking tips from “Sharp Elbows Verstappen”
Gutsiest move I ever saw, Tom!
That's fine though. Tom's got the inside line (mostly as Schwarzbauer's gone a little too wide). The overhead doesn't show anything, but the camera right on the corner picks it up fine. Comms would have dismissed that in seconds.
Rubbing is racing, however MTB albeit unofficial etiquette is that you don't take out your competition. Remember Fluekinger got a sanction for taking out Schurter last year.
Considering the prize at stake he's right to complain though.
Considering the prize at stake maybe he should have ridden a tighter line!
Block pass. No more to discuss, move on!
Is there any footage from the grassy knoll?
Luca’s racecraft just not up to scratch.
Yeah, I agree, it's the World Champs, and Pidcock is the rider behind you, chose your line more cleverly. I'm not surprised he had a word with Pidcock after the event, I'm surprised he made the statement he did after the heat had died down.
Last 30sec shows the best angle.
Clearly part of racing and the other chaps rear wheel slid out from excessive breaking imo. He had loads of room but was unwilling to relinquish, Pidcock was along side him on the inside just before the corner.
Pidcocks line looked different from Luca's so Luca was a bit stuffed once Tom was inside him. Not gentlemanly but exciting to watch and nothing that doesn't happen in sprints all the time
At 1:37 in that BBC video Pidcock is completely alongside him and moving faster, so any crash was surely him turning into Pidcock - presumably both trying to hit the same worn-in line of the track.
All very tame - Mrs raced the 95 worlds in Germany and there were 175 (!) women on the start list. It was carnage in the mid field, and coming from well mannered UK racing it was a shock to see other riders getting physically pushed into the bushes in the fight for lines during the early climbs!
watched it on GCN last night, even with all the replays I thought the dangling foot was TP's, indicating he was out of control and had over cooked it.
The BBC footage shows its LS's foot as he's been forced (legally IMO) wide of the presumably grippier racing line.
The taping of the corner, with a really sharp edge and a near straight run in for anyone doing exactly what TP did, in hindsight looks deliberately set up to create exactly this sort of drama.
I think the difference is that TP knew by this point he was going for bronze and needed the overtake. Luca takes the faster wider entry, and would have cut into the apex had Tom not appeared in his way, which would have been faster overall, as Luca was still beleiving/hoping he could sprint for gold.
On seeing the BBC clip I felt Pidcock was at fault, but on seeing Monkeyboy's clip, I think there was no fault - the door had been left wide open for him.
Jeez, I thought watch live, that it was a nothing incident - just the nature of that loose dirt on the corner meant Pidcock couldn't have turned any tighter. (Didn't one of the women slide out there with no-one anywhere near her?) If Pidcock had done anything wrong he would've been DQed. I'm sure even XCC has rules.
Plus Germans hate losing to Brits 😀
Leave the door wide open, sort be surprised when someone enters !
It’s the difference between riding fast by taking a preferred line (LS) and racing another competitor (TP). Nothing to complain about.
He ran full gas into [the corner] and I think no mountain biker would do this at all, like a pure mountain biker, the community of us.
Yeah, I think if XC racers want to shake off the reputation that they are simply road riders who weren't good enough for the pro-peloton they shouldn't say things like this.
Only watched it once yesterday. It looked a bit naughty, it was an open door which started closing again and I think Pidcock knew he was pushing it a bit, but I don't think it was in any way intentional. Just racing.
Legit pass IMO, as soon as you see someone is up your inside then you have to change your line accordingly. He's just annoyed he left a gap and must have been surprised how much extra speed Pidcock managed to carry into that corner. Pidcock managed to get round the corner and didn't run very wide at all which shows he wasn't exactly reckless.
Looking at it again, Pidcock comes in so hot that I suspect if he'd let him through then ridden his inside line (which as ayjay says, he was clearly aiming for to exit fast for the sprint) he would have emerged ahead...
Yeah, I think if XC racers want to shake off the reputation that they are simply road riders who weren’t good enough for the pro-peloton they shouldn’t say things like this.
😀
@branes yes, anyone who watches motorbike racing would be well aware of this. Valentino Rossi would have been proud of that move!
in the Words of the Great Man , applies to all racing
He ran full gas into [the corner] and I think no mountain biker would do this at all, like a pure mountain biker, the community of us.
It must be sickening for him to have riders who aren't a "pure mountain biker" to consistently be a better mountain biker than him 😂
in the Words of the Great Man , applies to all racing
'We are not racing to come third...'
Except in this instance.
Did anyone see the Evie Richards one? It was funny - the Swiss rider seemed to suddenly turn into Evie and bounce off, not sure if Richards even noticed. Ooh, a fly just landed on my arm! 😀
The Swiss rider probably bounced off Evie’s smile.
Huge smile as she rode round and dancing on the podium.
Seems like he had two options and did neither - he had a better line than TP coming in to apex the corner and maintain speed away but he didn't close that door and cut TP off as i think he'd have been within rights to do. OTOH once he'd allowed TP up the inside he didn't then give him space and thus contributed to the contact that he came worse off on. Poor racecraft.
If he'd given the line up, he'd probably still have got beaten as TP had the worn in track and shorter radius, he'd have had the looser, wider line but would have at least been contesting instead of sat on his arse blubbing about it.
Luca wouldn't last long in bmx. Looked fine to me, he just didn't realise the speed that Pidcock had coming out of the descent.
best thing that happened in the whole race
best thing that happened in the whole race
Youre not wrong. when XCC first started I had high hopes. the first course - was it Nove Mesto? - they made a lovely course with man made features, up and down, that could be ridden side by side. the other venues didnt seem to match them, and made it more of a dirt crit or non muddy CX race, with occasional brief harder sections of singletrack.
Neither of which are bad, ncecessarily if the course is right and the camera work good.
Which I did not feel was the case in Glentress, the first climb was the only visible method of attack, a key bit in the trees was all but missed by the cameras, the crucial final corner had a tree blocking it.
Which I did not feel was the case in Glentress, the first climb was the only visible method of attack, a key bit in the trees was all but missed by the cameras, the crucial final corner had a tree blocking it.
Agree. Watching on course (in the woods mainly) other than the start/finish straight the only realistic place to make a move was the main climb.
One might speculate that Pidcock didn't have the legs to create enough of a gap on the climb at towards the end of the race (a couple of times he looked to squeeze up a place on the entry to the descent) and only really had a last corner gamble for a podium spot.
Contrast with Gaze and Ferrand Prevot who had the pace to create a gap at the front and once they had, nobody came close to getting back to them (well until Gaze sat up on the finish straight).
XCO course will have lots more opportunities for overtaking as long as riders remain in contact.
Pidcock found two passing places on the inside of corners that no one else did.
But he was lower on power on the flat start finish straight, and up the bottom half of the climb. He came back closer to the top of the climb. Pretty much as you would expect for a smaller rider.
XCO has longer climbs.
Just caught up on the race tonight. Totally legit pass imo and if anything it should be pidcock annoyed with Luca for closing the door. Luca left a massive door open and pidcock took advantage - fair play.
Very impressive ride from pidcock coming from so far back.
Looking forward to the race tomorrow.
Seeing as this is the most active wc thread and perhaps relevant too, anyone know what the riders are getting upset with uci about? Seems something to do with start order that favours the ‘road’ riders maybe?
They feel gridding should be based on ranking from the MTB season, as that's what the rules say. But UCI have changed the rules at the 11th hour. The pro-roadies (Sagan, TP, vdP) don't have points so should be at the back but they've been bumped to the 5th row.
I see both sides but in a large field particularly of mixed ability - and there will be some 'no hoper' competitors in there - for genuine contenders to be badly delayed or taken out fighting through close on 100 starters doesn't seem right either.
<p>Pidcock, Van der Poel and Sagan have been moved up from a last row start to 33rd to 35th positions or something like that, ahead of Gaze who won the short track race this week. <br />It definitely seems odd that Sagan has had the bump as he’s not been at the sharp end of a race in a long time. Pidcock won at Nove Mesto so it seems reasonable that he gets a decent grid position, same for VdP who’s world champion in road and CX.</p><p> </p><p> </p>
Totally fine IMHO, 54kg rider passes up the inside of a 78kg rider and somehow the much much bigger guy ends up on his arse.
It's not like he's lost out to Pidcock in an XCC race already this year, oh hang on 😉
Oi. 78kg is not a big rider. And 54kg is tiny.
Post from Jolanda Neff
"Jolanda Neff has also added to the official statement, pointing out that she believes the UCI has not fairly applied this late addition to the rules as Kata Blanka Vas (who is ranked inside the top 10 in the world for cyclocross) had to start 47th on the gird in the U23 Women's race and finished in 5th. "
No he didn't slam into you, he didn't bump you, he didn't nudge you... He rubbed you, and rubbin', son, is racin'.
Pretty embarassing for Luca that he - a pure mountain biker - can't corner as well on dirt as a roadie
Seeing as this is the most active wc thread and perhaps relevant too, anyone know what the riders are getting upset with uci about? Seems something to do with start order that favours the ‘road’ riders maybe?
UCI in treating mountain biking like a joke shocker!
I think it's a chicken and egg thing. Does the sport not get respect because non-specialists are in with a good chance of winning, or are non-specialists in with a good chance of winning because the sport doesn't get respect.
Either way I'd be quite happy if no mountain biking discipline was in the Olympics. Or the UCI, for that matter.
Either way I’d be quite happy if no mountain biking discipline was in the Olympics. Or the UCI, for that matter.
Bruce, You bored everyone with your ranting on the UCI thread, please don't start again
I'm really enjoying watching people who ride the same XC bike as me, but doing it on more exciting terrain, and way better than me.
Maybe go and watch the UCI cycle-ball or artistic cycling for a bit of a calm down. Cycling is a beautiful broad church
I think it is brilliant that a few individuals have the skills to race across disciplines. They shouldn't be given a front row slot, but equally shouldn't be on the back row either. We are now at the point of shut up and race - and it looks like being a good one🙂. The best person at riding an MTB will win.
The best person at riding an MTB will win.
Will someone who starts at the back realistically win though?
Pidcock has before, but burned a lot of gas doing it and probably took some risks / upset a few people on the way through. When you are the reigning Olympic champ and have won world cups, I don't see why you should be put in that position.
Am I right in saying that Pidcock hasn’t benefitted by being moved up the grid as he’s already gained enough UCI points in MTB this year to not be at the back? If MVDP and Sagan haven’t done that, why should they be handed an advantage?
Huge gap - I’d have gone for it.
You can look at it both ways, why should some top riders be disadvantaged just because they ride multiple disciplines but then again everyone knew the rules(or thought they did!) Which is why Pidcock fitted some XC I to his road schedule to enable a decent grid spot.
Am I right in saying that Pidcock hasn’t benefitted by being moved up the grid as he’s already gained enough UCI points in MTB this year to not be at the back? If MVDP and Sagan haven’t done that, why should they be handed an advantage?
I think so. Rumour has it they’ll be popping some boarding in the gap jumps and after the drops just to give MVDP the best shot as unifying the stripes.
Bruce, You bored everyone with your ranting on the UCI thread, please don’t start again
Boredom normally means you wander off and do something else. Taking the time to write a post just to slag someone off means you're not bored, you're upset.
Many other people got upset when I suggested that non-specialists turning up and doing well was not a good look and kind of a problem.
Well, now we have racers saying Tom Pidcock isn't a real mountain biker because he is simply a better racer.
We have the rules getting changed the day before the event.
We have dozens of riders signing an open letter.
This is not 'not a problem' and, imo, it's still not a good look for, at least as far as the general public is concerned, the most visible form of mountain bike racing.
I'm not expert in these matters, but it looked like LS was going for a fast corner and TP was going for a racing corner.
A fine line between unsporting behaviour and exciting racing.
well MVP crashed out on the start loop lol
I think the main difference with CX is that it happens at a completely different time of the year. It complements road racing whereas XC competes directly with it. And the problem is it's going to lose out to road racing every time.
If I was going to suggest how to fix this, my solution would be to make XC a winter sport.
Even though we ride our mountain bikes year round, there is no winter discipline for mountain biking. DH, Enduro, and XC all compete for attention. Not only that but XC competes with road racing for attention.
The problem is that XC is an Olympic event and therefore has to be held during the summer. I don't think having XC as an Olympic sport and therefore the premier discipline of mountain biking really reflects the realities of mountain biking anymore.
I think XC and CX could exist side by side quite happily in much the same way that DH and Enduro exist side by side with some riders dipping in and out of both.
I also think we could see enduro riders and even DHers using it as winter training. We might even get more XC riders doing enduro and DH during the summer.
I think if XC is going to try to compete with Grand Tours and one day classics it's going to lose everytime which is going to lead to more of the problems we've seen this week.
If you put XC in the winter Olympics that's it for Cross....
I don't think so... CX is well established and well attended these days (has been growing over the years). XC would have a real uphill battle to fight against CX in winter, I don't think it would win - far more effort to set-up, far more time in the freezing conditions and races are much longer - none of those things appeal to organisers, helpers, spectators or most racers.
CX is well established and well attended these days
CX has been well established for many years, hence a whole load of teams with strong links to the communities the racing takes place in, unlike xc. You also have local riders and established road cycling stars riding the big events. MTB xc doesn’t have the history, the stars or strong identity cx has and that’s before you get into the fact that it’s long races not suited for casual spectators like cx is.
The winner of the worlds has the same model Oakleys as me, in exactly the same colourway. I feel awesome 😎
XC would have a real uphill battle to fight against CX in winter, I don’t think it would win
I don't think everything has to be a zero sum game. In this case I think it would be a case of increasing the size of the pie rather than trying to steal a part of what currently belongs to CX.
Especially when you look at the current way we watch bike races with the GCN subscriptions. It's a problem for mtb fans that there is nothing to watch from September until April so it's in their interest to find something for us to watch during the winter months.
Once you've got people paying for a year round subscription they might end up coming for the XC but staying for CX, thus increasing the audience in general.
I was actually spectating and did get a little video of the incident. The chance of an overtake was definitely possible and tbh that's why i chose to spectate that corner. The swiss team actually practised the move in the warm up so he should have expected it. I think pidcock was in front but the did run wide because he came in hot, but it definitely didn't look intentional to take him down. He did take out someone else in the woods during the XCO but guess if your back on the start then you need to make moves to head forward.
Plenty of CX to watch and it isn't far off MTB racing, just a shorter race, but has all the action and skill to make it very exciting to watch.
Increasing the size of the pie isn't going to work to begin with - racers are committed to the various seasons they race...to get people racing CX and also MTB is going to be a real push to begin with and then things will fragment and both races will suffer.
Saying that, if it works then great, but the initial start will be slow and very patchy - far more work getting a MTB race organised and costs are higher...so I'm not sure many folk will be keen on organising them without some sort of reassurance that there will be enough entries to clear costs at the very least.
Plenty of CX to watch and it isn’t far off MTB racing, just a shorter race, but has all the action and skill to make it very exciting to watch.
Sure, and that's part of why I paid for the full year subscription rather than just the six months of mtb racing. However, a lot of people didn't, I guess because there was no mountain biking for most of the year.
to get people racing CX and also MTB is going to be a real push to begin with and then things will fragment and both races will suffer
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don't need them doing both.
I see it more like DH and Enduro. Many riders just ride their own discipline but those who want to can jump over for some races.
A lot do both though...so by creating more races in different disciplines, you will split the racers in some cases...so you will get a hit in numbers in both events as some racers won't be willing to race 2 series week on week...depending where you are in the UK, the CX series is almost weekly - some are official race series events and others are just added in, but you'd then need to spread the races further apart to allow other races to be added.
I'm not against this - I'm all for more racing/riding opportunities, but the number of entrants is finite and the costs will force them to pick. Diluting those numbers makes it harder to cover the costs (a large number of these races cover costs but not by much, so reducing the numbers is going to cause an issue for race organisers).
The Mountain bikers who are wanting to race during the winter are already doing the CX races.
Probably need a question being asked to all the CX racers and the MTB racers to see if there would be demand...
I guess we'd need to know how many XC racers race CX over the winter and if that number would be enough to cause issues for CX. And I guess the numbers would vary massively from country to country as well.
One thing to think about though is that if XC became a winter sport you might find more Enduro and DH riders using it as winter training or just because they now have the time to do it. Especially if the current trend for bigger bikes and bigger features continues.
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don’t need them doing both.
Away from the very high profile riders/events/world cup, those riders outside the top ~20 CX and XC are very much the same people.
It'll just be a race to the bottom. And TBH, I can only see XC losing.
Especially in CX heartlands where the entire club/organisation structure is geared up around CX races.
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don’t need them doing both.
I see it more like DH and Enduro. Many riders just ride their own discipline but those who want to can jump over for some races.
I think there's some obvious and natural crossover that should be encouraged between CX and XC, the idea of riders/racers being told to stick to one discipline sounds pretty terrible IMO. (unless I've missed some sarcasm here?)
TP has of course been pretty successful in both XC and CX so being criticised for not being a "Specialist" is simply ridiculous. He races bicycles and He is bloody good both on and off-road, basically He's and almost perfect argument against gatekeepers in any niche of cycling.
As for Enduro, it's full of DH/Ex DH racers and (Especially in the Womens) there have been Enduro Racers turning up in WC DH and World Champs, Hattie Harnden finished up in a respectable mid-table position at Fort William.
People can, do and should ride/race across disciplines anyone trying to put barriers in the way of that needs to have their own motives questioned... (IMO of course)
I think there’s some obvious and natural crossover that should be encouraged between CX and XC, the idea of riders/racers being told to stick to one discipline sounds pretty terrible IMO. (unless I’ve missed some sarcasm here?)
No sarcasm but I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say.
TP is the best XC racer in the world (imo) but he has only raced two XC races this year.
MvdP has only done one race (briefly).
We haven't seen Egan Bernal race XC since he was winning medals in the Juniors.
Sam Gaze has said he want to achieve everything he can in XC but his main goal is to be successful on the road. If he is then we can expect to see much less of him.
The point is we aren't getting to see the best XC mountain bikers riding mountain bikes because XC is trying to compete directly with road racing.
I think the 'pure' XC field is right to feel angry at the UCI changing the rules the day before the race. However, I don't think they have the right to feel angry that these riders were moved up (except Sagan, he shouldn't have been there) because instead of riding WC rounds they were out riding the TdF.
I don't want to see less TP and MvdP. I want to see more of them.
Fair enough, I think the problem you will always face is more to do with money, tradition and the good old UCI.
I don't think you'll find a better slot in the year for XC racing, making it a winter sport would not help (IMO) and you'll not displace other disciplines just so the new flavour of cycling can score more big names in competition.
I think XC will always remain the "poor cousin" with riders like TP taking the opportunity to earn more and become household names in the more widely popular disciplines.
Part of that issue though is also meeting their sponsor's requirements...I'm assuming (as I don't know) they the CX and MTB isn't really a priority or real thought for their sponsors. It will no doubt cost a small fortune to fully support a rider (not even a team) to do a full XC session, likewise a similar cost for doing a CX session and then the cost of them doing road.
If it could be sorted so that they riders could do them all, then it would be great, but training schedules would be properly rejigged to support the requirements for each discipline throughout the year.
I'm not sure it is an easy one to crack, especially given how skilled these multi-discipline riders are...there isn't an obvious 'bad' discipline that could be dropped to allow them to do 2.
Winter is typically the time for base fitness for roadies, if you introduce XC and do the CX races then is that going to cause issues with training and fitness?
I'm not against any of this, just trying to play devil's advocate and think out loud.
I’m not against any of this, just trying to play devil’s advocate and think out loud.
No I have no idea if this would work well or even work at all.
I just want to get the most value for money out of my GCN subscription 🙂
Part of that issue though is also meeting their sponsor’s requirements…I’m assuming (as I don’t know) they the CX and MTB isn’t really a priority or real thought for their sponsors.
I think Ineos-Grenadiers have signed both Pidcok and Ferrand-Prevot knowing that both are going for XCO Gold and that the Worlds Gold is part of that programme, I imagine that the all their sponsors had massive hang-overs on Sunday
It will no doubt cost a small fortune to fully support a rider (not even a team) to do a full XC session
I know that one of things that PFP has said is that previously her teams have "left her to get on with everything herself" ie she's been largely unsupported, one of things that she's said has been the hardest to get used to with I-G is that now she has a full time assistant - and further help should she need it just a call away.
You want XC in the winter, fine.
Forgetting any arguments about participants, who is going to carry the increased trail maintenance burden, increased likelihood of weather cancelling it, less volunteers willing to stand out in all weather's etc?
Don't pro road riders just end up on a nice dependable road in Bloemfontein instead of a cold wet field near ghent come winter? I might be wrong but I'm guessing it's a fairly full time job.
Moving xc to winter isn't going to fix that. Especially if it turns out that racing a lot of of xc arguably doesn't make you better at it than someone who is only able to do the odd race here and there.
Yeah, there's plenty reasons why it wouldn't work.
Do we just have to accept we only get to see the best racers in the Olympics?
Even for this World Champs, MvdP said he was aiming to finish in the top 10 to 15 rather than going for the win. I think it was more about qualifying for Paris. It could have just been a bluff but after the TdF and that Road Race last week I suspect he wasn't really prepared for XC racing at the sharp end (which may well have contributed to the crash).
Saying that, it wouldn't have surprised me at all if he ended up winning the thing either.
LOL at the suggestion that xc should shift to become a winter sport. ????
Do we just have to accept we only get to see the best racers in the Olympics?
Yep, I think that's probably true, or we'll get to see the racers that are able to cross over to other disciplines compete in particular races to their calendar (the ones that will guarantee them an Olympic spot presumably)