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Following some ongoing, and rather heavy handed repair work by Fix the Fells on the classic Boredale Hause descent into Patterdale, a petition has been started. Can you take a moment to sign it and then give it a share. Trying to make our voice heard as loudly as possible before it's too late.
You can see the repairs here:
and the petition is here: Petition
Looks like a decent job to me, it's not the whole trail they're doing is it?
I've signed it.
@km79 - they're doing most of both the bridleway and the footpath. I'd be keen to know why you think it looks like a decent job, because you're the first rider I've heard say that.
<h1 class="post-title">unnecessary</h1>
Aye well, there's the rub. Without knowing a lot more about the area, the current condition of the paths and the volume of traffic, I'd say it's damn near impossible to say what is and isn't necessary.
I have to say that, from the photos, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the work and I can also see that the existing track has ended up in a gully with folk now walking/riding on the land alongside it. That will just add to erosion.
Aye well, there’s the rub. Without knowing a lot more about the area, the current condition of the paths and the volume of traffic, I’d say it’s damn near impossible to say what is and isn’t necessary.
Because there are better ways to fix a bridleway, read some of the comments and replies - thanks but we consulted, thanks but we, thanks but....
@scotroutes - Fair enough. I guess most of the issue lies with the manner in which the repairs are being done - I don't think many riders, walkers or runners are fans of stone pitching and want to see the practice eliminated or reduced unless absolutely necessary.
Ironically, there is one particular section where the trail has widened over time, because people are avoiding walking on existing stone work.
I’d be keen to know why you think it looks like a decent job, because you’re the first rider I’ve heard say that.
Because I've walked and ridden a lot of different paths and for some places which suffer from over use and erosion it's a good way to fix it and it lasts a lot longer than some of the other methods.
Ironically, there is one particular section where the trail has widened over time, because people are avoiding walking on existing stone work.
That's the problem there. People DGAF and it's always someone elses problem to sort out.
Your OP was lacking in any sort of background info, if you're looking for people to support a cause then it's better to provide some basic details.
Agree with the petition.
Another angle to consider is the other main user of the bridleway - horses. I’ve ridden that many times over the last 25 years on horse and bicycle and I would consider the stone work to be not desperately suitable for horses/ponies either.
As in the Yorkshire Dales there seems to be a complete lack of accountability or genuine consultation before making widespread and expensive changes
I think the more pertinent question is whether its legal to surface a bridleway like that - I would imagine the horse riders aren't best impressed.
Was keen to get all excited about another trail ruined. But those steps are quite small will clear easily ont hte mtb downhill and it actually looks doable to me to ride up them, welcome new challenge pity its a bit far from me.
Is the footpath higher up.and rockier IIRC? If so, it's a better descent anyway....😁
@hofnar - the steps are relatively small, but there weren't steps in the first place. As has been mentioned above, there has to be a more sympathetic way to repair erosion damage. Plus, the steps are easier and less interesting to ride.
@nobeerinthefridge - unfortunately not. The footpath is the lower path and they're working on that one as well.
Have a chat with the folks at peakdistrictmtb, they're dealing with the opposite problems in the peak park!
from my experience this is the only way to stop heavily used paths deteriorating into wide eroded messes. The only other option is to put big water bars and runnoff channels in every few feet. thats steep enough to me to require pitching imo
justinbeiber - what would you consider a better way? Any examples of this? I have never seen any for routes that eroded and steep
They need to tarmac it surly the lazy ****ers
Looks like a good job to me? The pictures dont really paint a very good picture without any additional information but it looks to me like well made steps to take the heavy traffic.
for horses?
Im not a rider so i have no idea, but if i was a horse id much prefer that to some of the loose stuff you see in the peak or even the lakes. If you cant maintain a worn path to deal with the level of traffic then what option is there?
This is a trail for everyone. Fix the fells cant be expected to repair a trail with the 0.1% (horse and mtb) of users in mind. Any other method will be wrecked within a year and a gigantic waste of money.
Consider - what is better for your own niche sport or everyone else (99.9% hikers) who visit the lake district, and the long term preservation of the fells. Not much point spending thousands of pounds to preserve (at best average) mtb trails for a year or two when you can spend the same amount and not think about it for the next decade...
Don't sign this, support fix the fells. In these times of austerity any actions to support our national parks should be supported by anyone who loves the outdoors.
This is a trail for everyone. Fix the fells cant be expected to repair a trail with the 0.1% (horse and mtb) of users in mind. Any other method will be wrecked within a year and a gigantic waste of money..
Why?
because any o0ther method will get washed out in the first winter. thats why its done this way.
I would like someone to say what other method could be used?
erosion on lakeland paths need repairing.
seeing it only from a mtbers point of view is very narrow minded.
seeing it only from a mtbers point of view is very narrow minded.
You read the comments? It's fairly universal criticism from all sides there.
I would like someone to say what other method could be used?
I'd like people be given the chance to discuss it.
I'm surprised to see such a negative view of people who spend loads of their time trying to help preserve our wild environments. Their work must surely be supported by the National Parks Authorities. If it is so offensive to some mountain bikers then find other routes!
To answer the most recent point, I’m not approaching it purely from an MTBers point of view. When I’m out walking or running, I prefer loose, interesting trails. Not steps.
Also, in winter time and when it’s wet, these steps are going to be lethal.
As for whether these trails are average, I beg to differ. This was one of the best singletrack descents in the lakes. Way above average.
Finally, if you read the petition, you’ll see that we’re in favour of maintaining and supporting the National Park and it’s paths. We just want Fix The Fells to take into consideration ALL trail users and repair them in a slightly more sympathetic manner.
so justin - what method do you think should be used?
what method do you think should be used?
Consultation and discussion?
Errrrrrrrrr coz amost everyone using it is walking it? Its not rocket science is it - there is a limited budget, so do the best, most economical option for the overwhelming majority of users (aka hikers).
As to why exactly? Basically, every other type of trail will erode and become a horrible sloppy rut in the ground in a year or so. This makes all the money spent on maintaining the integrity of the fell pointless.
I say this as a lake district local - MTB is a tiny fraction of users, and at the end of the day, economics win. I for one, am glad to see fix the fells getting to it!
MIke - thats what has been done and this is the best method available. I'd like you or justin to say how it should be done instead. You are the guys saying this is the wrong method. So what is the right way?
@tjagain - I'm not a trail builder so I don't know. I realise that this lets you win this internet argument, so well done you. Have 10 points on me.
@andylc - I don't have a negative view of the people doing the work, and I don't think the person who started the petition does either. Our collective impression, and I say this as politely as possible, is that Fix The Fells don't fully grasp what mountain bikers like riding on. For example - at a previous dig day in the Duddon Valley, they were wanting to remove a boulder from a path because they saw it as a problem. It was only when a couple of riders rode it and showed them why we want features left in, that they understood and it was kept.
As for finding other routes, we do. But it would be nice if we didn't have to.
Mikewsmith:
Because there are better ways to fix a bridleway
Which are? I honestly don't know, so would like to be educated before signing the petition.
Agreed with TJ - Mike and Justin, if you could give us the best way of repairing trails that accommodate all users with the minimum economic outlay and maximum longevity I would love to hear it.
Until then, stop thinking about yourselves, and start thinking about the millions of people who visit the lake district not on a mountain bike each year...
I'd like to find them before everything gets pitched up there, seen a huge variety of track and trail construction over the years lots which is multi use and well done, from the pics and responses this seems to cause problems in winter, for bikes, for horses, for runners... Is that a good solution? The simple part is in winter pitched rock trails become an ice sheet making them unsuitable for anyone. Who decides the priorities or method of fixing?
I think the more pertinent question is .. who gives a ****! 😆
@gingerbllr - I'm not just thinking of myself as a mountain biker. As was mentioned earlier, negative comments on the fix the fells Facebook post come from all users; walkers, fell runners and mountain bikers.
I’ve ridden horses up and down paths like that. It’s absolutely fine and far nicer to ride on than tarmac or gravel if it’s steep.
Over 20 years ago I did help with similar Lake District path repairs - I wonder how that path is now? They were big stones, not easy to move!
I don't know the route but it sounds as though there are two pretty much adjacent routes, one a footpath and one a bridleway. Hard to see why both need to be treated the same
If the vast majority of users are walkers then, yes, they must be catered for but you have to also assume that they are likely responsible for the majority of the damage that then led to storm erosion. Perhaps they could be "encouraged" to stay on the resurfaced footpath and leave the bridleway alone ?
Sorry guys but you cannot say this is the wrong way to do it unless you know something better. for what its worth I hate stone pitching but accept its often the best way. When I first went into the lakes there was almost none of this. Over time the paths eroded and widened and many repairs were done. Now traffic is so high that stone pitching is the only answer on steep heavily travelled sections
Agreed. Lots of people here full of criticism but no alternative solutions being heard - your needs are not more important than:
1. Majority of users
2. The wellness of the fells
. Our collective impression, and I say this as politely as possible, is that Fix The Fells don’t fully grasp what mountain bikers like riding on.
Do you mean ALL mountain bikers? Because I’ve never looked at a set of rocky steps and thought it looked boring. I’m not sure what it’s replacing, it looked like it was a fairly wide, smooth, steep path. The fact it will be “lethal when wet” surely contradicts the idea it will be boring? Is the obligation for maintaining a bridle way to provide a path which is usable by as many people as possible as a mechanism to get from a-b on foot/bike/horse or to provide a path which is as fun to ride as possible for the most skilled riders? I don’t ride horses so don’t know how a horse would treat this - but the other suggestion of a “loose” surface sounds like scree and I can’t imagine that’s too great for equine feet either.
It's not my experience that these type of trails are more treacherous in winter either. In fact I find they hold less water which means less ice than the worn out eroded trails where water pools more.
Agreed. Lots of people here full of criticism but no alternative solutions being heard – your needs are not more important than:
1. Majority of users
2. The wellness of the fells
To reiterate; I don't know the route (and of course haven't seen the pitching in the "flesh")
In my view, If bikers and horse riders really don't like it they will develop an alternative solution by riding to the sides of the repaired path wherever they can do so. Hopefully, as there's so few of them this won't actually cause much damage because if it does then the whole exercise will have been futile or even damaging
Out of (slight) interest, is the consultation report viewable anywhere ? I wonder what the bike/horse people said ?
@poly - it was about as far removed from a wide smooth steep path as it’s possible to get. It was a stunning piece of singletrack with natural bedrock features, natural drop offs, and the occasional water bar. The lower section did suffer badly during recent storms, and it is right that this has been repaired. However, it didn’t all need fixing and that’s what we’re trying to raise awareness of.
regarding the steps being lethal in the wet, I should clarify - I meant when walking.
@km79, this particular trail was sufficiently steep that water never got a chance to pool - it drained down the path, which is why I agree that bits of it needed repairing, but it would be great if they didn’t have to just pave the entirety of the trail.
You've lost the petition at the first step by putting in the word "unnecessary".
The reply is simply, "we don't do unnecessary stone pitching, this work is necessary".
Looks reasonable to me, steps are good for walkers, fun for bikers and remarkable horses can manage them.
The Toys out the pram I've lost my favourite descent petition ?
Bit like when forrestry clear fell.
It'll be back even with the stone pitching and may even be better and more nadgery once erroded.
Where it's happened locally they have turned out to be some pretty epic descents after a few years of life and remain pretty stable
Looking at you bennachie/millstone/mithertap
It was a stunning piece of singletrack with natural bedrock features, natural drop offs, and the occasional water bar.
The Toys out the pram I’ve lost my favourite descent petition ?
From the viewpoint of an outsider, it reads very much like this.
Unfortunately for the OP and mountain bikers, the health of the land comes over and above our needs. Suck it up, they're not going to change it now are they? Something obviously needed to be done to protect the hill from the (I'm guessing) thousands of walkers that walk that path and bridleway every year.
Now, if there was an epic bit of singletrack down here in Kent and they replaced it with stone steps then I'd be a little pissed, but that's because it would have been the ONLY bit of singletrack for miles around. It's not like you're exactly lacking in hills or trails up there, now is it?
I don't think this went the way the OP intended 😆
Come up here and join Shortbread and I for a Cairngorm ride to make you feel better Jimmy 😉
Lol, not exactly Gav, no! I honestly wasn’t expecting quite so much negativity on here, especially when the overwhelming feeling amongst the MTB community in the Lakes is that the work carried out by Fix The Fells is heavy handed and done under their own agenda without paying too much attention to other users.
A Cairngorms ride is definitely in order, no idea when it’s going to happen though!
Sorry, petitioners are coming across as a bit self absorbed to me - only really focussed on their personal desires rather than being able to consider it from the wider perspective.
As much as I love the Lakes where I first learnt to appreciate mountains as a child and teen, the amount of visitors now ruins it for me at popular times. There is a reason why it is described as a buffer to keep the grockles out of Scotland! With the amount of footfall some places get you have to prioritise generating long term sustainable paths that are fit of purpose for the bulk of users as more natural solutions just can't cope. I hate walking let alone riding on this stuff but appreciate than when I am I am part of the problem and why it was done.
If those unhappy wanted to be more proactive maybe they could stop being part of the problem and shift their use to other less used areas rather than bleating on about the repair work needed because of the sheep like tendencies of so many people to use the same paths.
I sympathise with your view and see where you're coming from. Also reading through the facebook comments Fix the Fells seem a little sketchy on who from the mtb community they had the consultation with.
This seems a situation where a bit of compromise is needed, some of the path obviously needs work but maybe they need to be a bit sympathetic to other users.
The two similar situations I've experienced up here are the wrecking of the trails on Ben Aigen by the FC and the "improvements" to the Carn Ban (no) Mor descent. Both a bit of a bummer.
@crazy-legs - it's not my petition and so not my wording. However, I do agree that some of the work is unnecessary and that's where the discussion needs to be had. Even if it's to make more bikers aware of the reasons behind the work before it happens.
@trail_rat - it might seem that way, but it's not. There have been numerous reports of bridleways being sanitised throughout the Lakes in recent years, again with minimal consultation and I think this is the straw that's broken the camels back. It just so happens that this time it's a really great piece of trail that most riders are gutted to see go and we want to engage with Fix the Fells before any more trails get repaired.
@ta11pau1 - if it was a one off repair to a single trail then yes, I totally see your point and we could just go and ride elsewhere. But it's part of a wider body of work that will affect more and more trails. What's particularly galling, is that in this instance there are parallel paths - one footpath and one bridleway and both are being treated the same way. It would have been nice had they left one a little more rough and ready to cater for different users.
so if not stone pitching what is the more sympathetic option ? leave it be ?
You cannot go to them moaning about what they are doing without offering a workable solution . leave it be isnt a workable solution - neither is re-doing the path every 6 months/year .
Will they be fitting handrails?
justin - there is no negativity. Instead a series of folk explaining why its done this way and asking you who says its the wrong way to provide a better solution as you say there must be one
sawvis when I rode can ban mor a few years ago it was clear the descent was eroding badly and in some places it was obvious mtbers where the cause of the erosion.
In most places the alternative to path repair is wide boggy eroded messes or topsoils stripped right off down to bedrock
I have seen numerous ways of reparing paths over the years and seen the increasing use of the paths meaning repairs become more and more needed. Stone pitching is the most durable method that I have seen
I kinda see both sides of the argument here.
As a biker, endless steps are boring - no flow and just about suspension travel to ride smoothly rather than actual handling skills, and the wheeltrapper water bars they tend to build (see Dollywaggon Pike)are lethal for all but the most gifted. As a walker, I don't mind going up steps, but my knees HATE coming down them. The odd short section is fine, but to see entire trails vanish under them is a bit sad. And yes, if the users don't like the surface some will just create alternative lines to either side and defeat the point of the work. (I do my best to NOT be one of these)
On the other hand, I agree there's no real alternative that's sustainable, and as a Peak District local, I'd love to see as much effort put in to repair work as Fix The Fells do, compared to the DCC habit of just burying everything under gravel/crushed brick/tarmac planings/concrete.
The real answer is to limit the number of people allowed out in the Lakes, as without the users, you won't have the erosion. Anyone want to volunteer to NOT walk/ride/climb there? No...? Pay per entry maybe? Stiil no...?
The best way to influence this and other bridleway repairs/alterations is from within, for mountain bikers to join groups like Fix the Fells and become an active involved part of it, influencing the design and features by actually being there on the day (at least the bridleway repairs part). However, given my experience of numbers of trail building volunteers that turn up at dedicated MTB sites (Stainburn, Dalby, Gisburn), It'll never happen. It's easier to just sit at your computer, set up an online petition and moan on a forum, or walk/ride past and tell others what they should be doing and how they should be doing it.
I'm looking forward to seeing pics of Justinbiebers first bridleway volunteer dig day on the fells, yeah, right 😉
@B.A.Nana, I totally agree, and that's what we're trying to do rather than just moaning about it. I don't see this thread as moaning about it either, nor did I set up the petition. But I did get out on Tuesday night with members of the Lake District Mountain Bike Association to see the work for myself rather than just going by what's online, and I'll be heading along for a site visit with Fix The Fells to review the work that's going on. When that happens, I'll make sure I take a photo just for you.
feeling amongst the MTB community in the Lakes is that the work carried out by Fix The Fells is heavy handed and done under their own agenda without paying too much attention to other users.
This^^^
Signed and shared
Good on you then Sir, I want to see a pic with your hands dirty tho 😉 , volunteer trail builders (assuming they are) will stick two fingers up as you walk away, if you come along, tells them what you want them to build and then disappear never to be seen again. Assuming these are all walkers volunteering with Fix the Fells, then they're not going to have a clue what MTBers want and what works and what doesn't.
If you go along to a meeting with FTF (or any similar body) saying "We want, we want ..." you aren't going to get anywhere.
The chances are they won't know what a modern long travel DH/enduro bike is capable of. You need to present your argument in terms they can understand: "Fixing the path in this way will mean MTBs travelling much faster leading to problems with other users".
As @trail_rat says, with limited money (FTF is funded by public donation) stone pitching is the most viable solution. But that doesn't mean that the entire path/BW has to be pitched.
@whitestone - I'm fully aware of that, and discussions explaining what modern bikes are capable of and the sort of trails we like riding have already taken place both at this site and others in the Lakes. It has also been pointed out that bikers will be travelling faster as a result of the pitching. As you say, stone pitching might be the most viable solution and no one is denying that some work needed to take place, we're just a bit taken aback by how much is actually going on.
You read the comments? It’s fairly universal criticism from all sides there.
I see circa 15 comments from people having a pop but the post itself has 102 likes, not very universal criticising IMO
I agree with others who have said, what other methods could be done instead that are long lasting/sustainable?
Looks great! A fine new feature on which to tune your biking skills.
God it's great living in Scotland.
Also, in winter time and when it’s wet, these steps are going to be lethal.
if you think they will be lethal you need to stick to a road bike then.
That area is always going to be heavily used by lots of different groups (honeypot bit of the Lakes, easy to access by a number of roads, walks linked to boat trips on the lake, walking route that features in many books etc etc). The stone pitching is at least usable by everyone and hardly the worst repair I've seen. Much rather that than gravel.
If you want quiet untouched trails then just open the map a bit wider and head to the east. High street is still pretty much all natural (actually hard to find the "proper" bridleway start from Moor Divock).
I rode up Loadpot Hill from Heltondale last week and it was an effort to find the track in places so no erosion problems just 4-5km from Boredale (sunny Sunday afternoon and didn't meet a soul on the climb or the summit).
what other methods could be done instead that are long lasting/sustainable?
Reforestation/rewilding?
@newrobdob - if you'd bothered to read some of my other replies, you might have noticed I meant lethal when walking. Compared to what was there previously, the steps will be easier to ride and speeds will increase.
@dmorts - not a bad idea that. Would probably involve far too many different parties coming together for it to ever become reality, but one can dream
@dmorts – not a bad idea that. Would probably involve far too many different parties coming together for it to ever become reality, but one can dream
If farming subsidies reduce or cease post-Brexit it might happen quite quickly.
Having been a Biker for years and then a fell walker for years in Cumbria, I would rather they didn't do it, I think erosion is part of nature it will still be here long after the human race has gone.
They say the reasons for repair work are People and Climate and they want to keep it beautiful(the way it Looks), Why not repair it Naturally then and limit access and badly worn trails? what they have started doing is the reverse making it look worst with Clear Paths all over the hills
Does this look Natural,
You can see eroded areas recovering in that pic. It looks better than a 20m wide eroded scar
It's a shame they didn't bank the corners a little, then it might be more fun to ride!
I would imagine the horse riders aren’t best impressed.
Who cares, they don't seem to care about making bridleways impassable for walkers around here.
Buko, how old is that picture? Sail doesn't look like that now