[Closed] Perfect bikes hidden in plain sight :: Are people buying them?

only slightly more expensive than a Santa Cruz

really good value for money,

Errr .....

(and I say that as an ex-SC owner and as someone who has had custom frames made)

The Olsen is £1200!

Maybe that's "really good value" to people who buy trousers from yourselves, to me that's a months wages!

Remember when you made 456 frames 10 years ago and they were frequently £100-£150 in the every other week On-One sales? A lot of the country has had a real terms pay cut since then.

And before someone points out that a pair of £100 trousers is good value because they last longer than a 6x pairs of jeans from sainsburys, how many people have actually killed a 456?

Cecil Graham: What is a cynic?
Lord Darlington: A man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
Cecil Graham: And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything and doesn’t know the market price of any single thing.

- Oscar Wilde

1. Website is crap

2. Links off models page do nothing useful on my browser

3. Bikes don't look anything special

4. Never heard of them

5. What makes them stand out over all or any others?

And what's  that Olsen website doing? White text on a pale grey background that changes as you read it?

Did anyone actually try the website on a mobile device before hand? God it's a monstrosity.

Why would I not just buy 2 Stanton frames for example?

personally if I had the cash I wouldn't be spending it on a santa-cruz . It would be on a smaller brand though (German or poss UK).

Unfortunately I don't have the cash.....

Imo santa-cruz are dangerously in the 'orange 5' category of a few years ago of being the go to brand of the audi brigade. Nothing wrong with them, just a bit 2 a penny.....

Custom is scary for a lot of people.

I've been road riding for over 40 years and I reckon I've only just sussed out what works for me.

Would love a custom road frame and I know that with the help of a good designer and  builder I'd get exactly what I want.

Off road, I'd be a bit lost tbh.

I nearly went for one of your custom titanium frames (fancy a versatile flat bar  hardtail with modern geo) but I'm still learning. Haven't ridden enough bikes yet to trust my own experience.

I suspect I'm not alone.

There's so much contradictory info out there, bikes change at a frightening rate. It's not surprising that people stick with the seemingly 'safer' option.

If say a custom road bike is a damn site more common than a mtb though - I have a few mates with maybe 4 or 5 custom road bikes between them. None of my mtb mate have a custom bike.

Strange as it seemed to be more common in the 90s. Maybe the big brands are doing better high end bikes now for better value than we used to get. Also the marketing power of a big brand is huge!

Look at Starling cycles though - he seems to be selling a fair few......

@thisisnotaspoon - I had forgotten that Wilde phrase was in Shady Wonder Mere's Fin, I know it from A Picture of Dorain Gray, when Lord Henry Wootton says it.

The Olsen doesn't appear to be that customisable geometry-wise.

And why did Robot name their Horst suspension design dw6?

I think there is so much choice with excellent off the peg bikes just now, you have to really want a custom build or are such a mutant shape* that only custom will work.
It's a bit like buying books or music. Downloaded or bought from a big supermarket ,it's still the same material that you get from an independent seller, just a different shopping experience. Some people really like that.
I bought a custom build, but it was mostly for small frame details (add ons),colour scheme and talking through the process with the builder.**

* My mutant shape only requires small tweeks

**This is what I enjoyed the most,oh and that nobody else in the whole wide world has one like it.. 🙂

The robot bikes are £900 (30%) more than the santa Cruz cc frames so not really "slighlty" more.  And whilst you can customise the geometry you can have either a 160mm 650b or a 130mm 29er so you are fairly restricted on the bike choice.

So if they fit exactly what you want regarding wheel size/travel, and you're happy to pay a 30% premium on top of an already top end frame then they're great.

As someone who could easily have been an Olsen customer (he's relatively local to me and I wanted a gearbox bike) I can tell you why I didn't buy one and ended up taking a punt on a Sick bike instead. I wanted a 650b bike that can take bigish tyres and has at least semi long/low/slack geometry and a Pinion gearbox. I looked at the Olsen bike repeatedly but ultimately decided it was a 29er old school xc geometry bike that was now being bodged to fit current trends. Much as I wanted a gearbox this one was not for me

I agree with the comment about custom geo being scary.

I reckon most, including me, like to think we are buying what's considered "good" geo by current standards and what we are told is "good" but having to actually choose it and wonder if we then got it right (with limited resale options I would think) is frankly scary to me!o

4. Never heard of them

That basically.

Never heard of one. The other I'd only heard about in a FGF or something as a niche type thing one might find as a near 1-off custom prototype at a handbuilt show or something.

£1200 - not so bad, I thought. That's kind of in the the same price as my fullsuss.  Oh £1200 is only a hardtail?

What I can afford and what I can justify are not the same thing.

1. Website is crap

I think I need to go to specsavers. Had to highlight all the text on the screen to be able to read it. Cos for half the autochanging backdrops the words are the same colour as the photo.

only slightly more expensive than a Santa Cruz

really good value for money

I see them as overpriced far too common bikes. Apologies to SC owners. I did contemplate buying one though.

There are hundreds of custom frame builders. And that's just in UK. Most are going to be niche or rare regardless of price, mainly because they are hidden, and not in plain sight.

I think that whilst FGF and  lot of the press coverage gives the impression that the industry is all about carbon superbikes with  country mile of wheelbase and angles slacker than a politicians morals.  The reality is most of my riding group still ride mid range hardtails, mostly a a few years old. Fads like fat bikes, CX/gravel are represented but they're probably only 1 in 10, whereas ST would have you thinking you can't be a real MTBer unless you own every n+1 personally.

I'm sure those people exist, infact we all know some of them, but they're not common.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">And why did Robot name their Horst suspension design dw6?</span>

It's not a Horst/4bar. There's 2x links behind the BB which effectively do the job of controlling the axle path just like an old skool DW link frame, so there's actually 3 elements between the BB and rear axle.

The idea is that the chainstay follows a set path regardless of length, so of you want a longer/shorter chainstay you still get the same travel and suspension characteristics. Whereas a 4/bar or single pivot would get more travel and higher shock rate as you made the bike longer.

I wonder how  a robot hard tail would cost? Probably still prohibitively  expensive. It would be cool though.

Never heard of them. poor advertising? Airdrop is another small uk builder that most probably have heard of, offering solid bikes with very good vfm. Probably going after a different market though I guess.

Both the websites seems ever slower than here, so I didnt bother to dig too deep.

Also Im not sure I could be bothered to spec my own geometry, I would rather an expert decided this for me. Its like having a forum where you have to be a web developer to be able to post anything more than text.

Never heard of them. poor advertising?

Never heard of one

Until now......

Airdrop are not a UK builder/ manufacturer.

Anyone else think Brant has got bored of making troos and is doing some stealth market research for a new project?

Yep. It smells like it

Santa Cruz have been around for ages - chances are they will be around for a long time more. They have proven designs with a track record and more importantly a track record of build quality and warranty. What happens when a niche frame builder either goes bust or simply just decides to close one company and start another.....where is the proven track record and warranty then. Sure you might be OK but..........

Can’t really understand why you don’t see many £1,200 hardtail frames from a brand never heard of either 🤷‍♂️

Never heard of them. poor advertising?

Maybe not the most effective advertising I’ve ever seen.

But at least, by making it look like a normal forum post, it was free 👍

Nice follow up to Fresh Goods Friday... 🙂

quote

Airdrop are not a UK builder/ manufacturer.

quote

airdrop are a uk company, where the frames are build, i do not care.

Also, if you’re looking for lightweight, a SC CC frame is much lighter than the equivalent RobotBikes.

Didnt the Olsen guy take over at Planet X only to leave when Brant went back?

By press coverage you mean the advertorials? Or the copy manufacturers send in to PR their products via their mates websites?

That Olsen is properly ugly

Its like having a forum where you have to be a web developer to be able to post anything more than text.

😂

I had a ride around on a Robot 29er at the world cup last summer.  I thought it felt great, and looks amazing.

At the time though, I was after a B+ full sus.  I asked them if they had plans to make such a thing, since each BB junction is 'printed' individually anyway and it would just need wider swingarm mounts then to glue the tubes into.

That was a no.  So I bought a Pole.

I think they are missing a trick by not being a bit more custom.  I appreciate it's niche, but it's a niche market they are after anyway.

If it's just a 29er or 650 bike, then there are so many really good, off the shelf options available that  it makes much more sense.

Perhaps making a BB 27mm wider is much harder than I appreciate though.

I'd also worry about handing over all that cash to a small company that offers a warranty, but may well fold at any time.  I run a small business myself so know how precarious it can be.

IIt’s not a Horst/4bar. There’s 2x links behind the BB which effectively do the job of controlling the axle path just like an old skool DW link frame, so there’s actually 3 elements between the BB and rear axle.

The idea is that the chainstay follows a set path regardless of length, so of you want a longer/shorter chainstay you still get the same travel and suspension characteristics. Whereas a 4/bar or single pivot would get more travel and higher shock rate as you made the bike longer.

I wonder how  a robot hard tail would cost? Probably still prohibitively  expensive. It would be cool though.

Ah I can see the extra pivot now.  So it is a "two short link" with a Horst link added on to that.  Groovy.  But surely to keep suspension characteristics the same, the shape (not length) of the suspension path would need to alter with chainstay length?

@bedmaker, why new BB shell for ‘b+?  They run on standard cranks unlike fatties. Back end wants to be wider, but BB she’ll itself should be unchanged...

I’m not working for Robot Bikes. I saw their frame in fgf and thought that it looked cool. That reminded me of Olsen, who I don’t work for either, and who block me from most of their social medias on most of my accounts.

I’m not starting my own bike brand (currently) though if I were, it wouldn’t be a mountainbike brand.

Really interesting responses though. Thanks for all contributions.

@vincienup  Correct!  I'm talking rubbish.  IT was just the wider linkages required to widen the swingarm.

As it happens, there's another custom fatbike frame buzzing around in my head at the moment putting me doolally...

when robot can fabricate the entire bike using additive manufacturing with options for 'braze-ons' bb, dropouts, etc. and do it for a reasonable price i'm in.

wrt to the olsen, is there a quicker, more effective way of making an ugly frame look uglier than by sticking a lauf fork on the front?

I think the robot bikes look great, id much rather pay the premium over a SC.

Can't say I've much interest in a pinion bike, not until you can use one with a proper shifter. The Olsen is not something I'd look out for. Are the complete geometries quoted on site?

They look interesting but way out my price range. I'd rather have either than a santa cruz though. MTB is very brand orientated and fashion/lifestyle influenced, especially in the stw readership I'd imagine, where you'd need a santa cruz on top of your audi, not some olsen that nobody will recognise and be unable to categorise you as a wealthy successful aspiring enduroist

I'd buy a SC over one of those every time, particularly the robot, as it's bloody ugly, and would be a nightmare to try and sell on.

Groovy.  But surely to keep suspension characteristics the same, the shape (not length) of the suspension path would need to alter with chainstay length?

I presume there's either some mathematical relationship or model that let's them tweek it relatively easily by altering the length/location of the pivots.

I think its a bit of marketing of a solution to a different problem, that a normal DW link would require another vertical strut, which would be harder to package with only access to straight carbon tubes. A Horst link avoids this, and DW/Horst hybrid solves the further problem of chain stay lengths.

Double post.

Robot bike co- I would love one, but they are insanely expensive.

Olsen- I like what they're doing but it's not what I'd be looking for at the moment. See also- expensive.

Cotic and bird seem to be doing ok at the momemt

I agree with the comment about custom geo being scary.

+1

I also think it would be easier to get rid of a size L known brand when your finally bored of it.

I prefer the Hope bike over the robot bike tbh(luckily no-one would give me bc discount on it).

that hardtail is one ugly mutha!

tbh if they did that Robot with more conventional suspension linkment I would be more interested. I lke simplicity me. So a Curtis would also be in the running.  If I wanted a custom full suspension bike enough.

airdrop are a uk company, where the frames are build, i do not care.

You stated in your original post that they were a UK builder!

You should worry about where they are built

.

I think I’m a pretty advanced level geek when it comes to understanding bike geometry - and my view so far is that no-one really understands MTB fit properly and the only way to know what works for you is to ride it (enough)!

So much as though I like the idea of a custom bike, I wouldn’t know what geometry to get. On the full-sus front my lightly modified Spitfire is pretty amazing but is shorter reach and slacker head angle than the current trend. Is confusing.

I'd love to have a go on one of the Robot Bike things, but they are a bit pricey. I like the look of the HB160 too, but I'm not sure if it'd be too much travel.

Bought a Santa Cruz because it was the best bike I've ever ridden. Couldn't care less about the reverse snobbery from folk who either spout crap on forums or mutter under their breath. In the same way that I don't care what others are riding.

If it's something unusual, I'll ask about it, but other than that...

Some people's knickers would never untwist if they saw my wife's bike!

Carbon is unfriendly to the environment i would buy a HB160 as I know its not made by oregnant women in a sweatshop in china.

I like what they do.

Not my bikes so. Not a friend of Carbon for bikes.

My hardtail bikes are based on low cost frames (0.25 k frames?), my Bossnut V2 is a 1 k full suspension bike. Works fine for me.

But at the same time I'am happy that others follow totally different concepts.

Nope but i did just buy a mint titus el guapo 29er with a cane creek db shock off ebay for £150.

Man did they depreciate!

Less hiding them in plain sight, more like camoflaging them.

I'm quite shallow and I was admiring the design of the Robot, then I thought about the name 'Robot' and saw the proper ugly logo stuck on the down tube and thought, nah.

So if I was in the market for a new bike, which I'm not, the Robot (ugh) wouldn't be a contender.

Why? Well as a Yorkshire man my answer is simple. "How effin much?????!!!!"

bloody hell. a few chips on shoulders here!

full disclosure: chameleon/golf owner. obviously sub par.

First, I think that both brands mentioned (Robot, Olsen) are doing great things. I truly wish them well.

But in an attempt to answer the question...

Robot : tubes bonded into lugs, for full-tilt super-bike money? Good luck with that.

Olsen : interesting, and very niche. Too niche?

Fwiw, i ride a mix of on-ones, genesis (genesii?), and Pinnacles. I've had others, they broke.

So if I was in the market for a new bike, which I’m not, the Robot (ugh) wouldn’t be a contender.

Considering the custom part of their offering I would guess you could have an alternative logo or nothing?

Personally since I tend towards riding what I am given I cant see custom working since I think "dunno about those angle thingies give me half a dozen built bikes and I might be able to say the one i like most" either prove rather expensive or be met with "sod off". Then again I do pretty much meet the average male height/reach statistic.

I think I’m a pretty advanced level geek when it comes to understanding bike geometry – and my view so far is that no-one really understands MTB fit properly and the only way to know what works for you is to ride it (enough)!

Yes, that's pretty much my position, although I'm less advanced 🙂

I've got a set of numbers that I think might work, but set against that we've got manufacturers who build prototypes, test, refine etc. So, what are than chances that my magic numbers will really work better than anything currently on the market?

If all these bikes are so shite , why dont people put their experise where their mouths are? You know money mouth awesome top selling product.

philxx1975 I did, I bought a Sick Wulfbarron. You haven't bought so much as a pair of socks

<div class="bbp-reply-author">philxx1975
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If all these bikes are so shite , why dont people put their experise where their mouths are? You know money mouth awesome top selling product.

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I think they are both great, i can't afford either but that's not a fault of the bikes.

Good luck to both companies. I still say I wouldn't trust myself with choosing custom geo though. 😂

Or totally mastering the QUOTE function on here! Lol 😆

The robot is a cute idea but very ugly. The pinion bike is just an eyesore.

I went for a Shand. It's beautiful.

Robot : tubes bonded into lugs, for full-tilt super-bike money? Good luck with that.

And you think this is bad because?? You realise the joint will be the least likely place to fail.....

Regards geometry choices :- all frame builders will be able to give you geometry to suit your riding without you having to know what the riding characteristics the difference between a 65° and 65.5° head angle will give. That's partly what your paying them the (comparatively little) extra for.

The point of the thread is to discuss why more of us don't use small UK manufacturers over the large (mainly Us)  brands.

Personally, it's all down to marketing. These guys can't spend millions on race teams which release regular new multimedia content.  When you buy a bike you also make a lifestyle / image choice. Buying a small UK brand over a large US brand puts you in a smaller demographic .

The website is very hard to read.

All cables run internally to stop reduce cables geting caught on frame luggage. The rear brake externally runs allong the underside of the top tube...

Lots more like that on the site. I think it is important to proof read your website (or get someone to do it for you) if you want to look professional.

I read the "About" page, and Olsen are obviously doing something a bit different with their design, so good luck to them. As a very conventional consumer, I'm not their target market for customised geometry, but I'm sure it will appeal to someone wanting a frame concept that is a bit different. The trick will be marketing that successfully against all the competition.

philxx1975 I did, I bought a Sick Wulfbarron. You haven’t bought so much as a pair of socks

Low flying missed the point. If all these bike companies are so crap and getting it wrong why dont you start your own and set the world on fire, You have all seen how easy it is now.

I have bought plenty of socks in my time so yet again your talking out of the region in which you sit.

Unless you mean a pair of 80s throwback socks from the scatterbrains.

For me to even consider dropping money on a bike / frame I need to initially be drawn to the look and design. Sounds pretty materialistic or petty but any bike needs to look right.

Both of these look rubbish to my eyes so I wouldn’t go any further.

The Olsen website is pants and they choose some really hideous builds to show off their design.

I’ve enquired about getting road frames custom built and came away from the process thinking that the maker want to build what they want, rather than what I want as as customer. Rourke I’m looking at you.

This is put me off ever getting a custom build.

monkeyboyjc

And you think this is bad because?? You realise the joint will be the least likely place to fail…..

personally, I think it's fine.

but I'm not the target market for a Robot.

i just think it's going to be a tough gig, putting tube-and-chunky-lug construction (100 yrs old ?) up against some very sleek looking frames that have fallen through a wormhole to the future.

Simply: I don't think it's bad. I do think it's a tough sale. I wish them huge success.

The point of the thread is to discuss why more of us don’t use small UK manufacturers over the large (mainly Us)  brands.

Personally, it’s all down to marketing. These guys can’t spend millions on race teams which release regular new multimedia content.  When you buy a bike you also make a lifestyle / image choice. Buying a small UK brand over a large US brand puts you in a smaller demographic

Many of us ride Bird and Whyte.

Custom fs frame means custom geometry (and not completely that), not custom suspension design and behaviour.   You get the suspension they sell, which affects what the geometry, tyre clearance etc. can be.

If you want it really custom, diy it is.

Robot : tubes bonded into lugs, for full-tilt super-bike money? Good luck with that.

It looks unusual because they're external and titanium but most carbon frames are lugged to some extent, you can't just mould and entire frame in one piece.

Bespoke. Another bullsh1t phrase to elevate something into stratospheric meta.

Mountain biking is slowly eating its own arsehole.

Marketing sells bikes and people are like sheep.

Big brands have big marketing budgets and peoples opinions are hard to change once set.  Very few new small firms will make it to market.  Even if they make a better bike we won't know because the big brands will market better.

On the flip side however if you have a great marketing campaign and website you could sell shite all day long.

Mountain biking is slowly eating its own arsehole

More a gentle rimming

Marketing sells bikes and people are like sheep.

This, this. And this some more

Many of us ride Bird and Whyte.

Your point being? neither do custom geometry. They also are UK owned , and not UK built.

Interesting question. Not aimed at me, price precluding my involvement in reality, as it does the vast majority of people, no surprises there eh.

Those buying top of the range bikes, that could afford to go custom! Hmmm prolly because those top of the range bikes are usually so well sorted, usually backed by a decent warranty, proper after sales care and are known quantity so to speak. Component specs tend to be a hair better as well, due to larger manufacturers buying power and exclusivity deals. Some of the bikes mentioned are quirky looking, which divides an already small market share further.

Who want's to take risks when the price is so high! If anything you want the premium to negate some/most of the risk involved.

Are people buying them?

I'm not. The Robot Bikes R130 is £3,245.83 + tax for a frameset. I think of bikes like the Giant Trance as a benchmark to compare other bikes with - the Trance isn't the best bike around, but a bike has to be better than that to warrant consideration. An aluminium Trance 2 is listed as £2,499 and a carbon Trance Advance 1 as £4,299. I can't see the Robot ending up a better bike for the kind of money I'm willing to pay.

bloody hell. a few chips on shoulders here!

It's the same every time one of these threads comes up and someone starts prattling on about "boutique bikes on the roofs of Audis". Personally, I've always considered trail jealousy to be the height of poor taste and thinking less of someone because of their steed (be it much more, or much less expensive than their own) to be something of a character flaw.

FWIW, my own opinion is that if you're buying a bike for life (as a lot of people riding touring bikes do) then bespoke is great and you'll get a bike that you can ride for years and is perfectly tailored for you for a few extra quid. But bespoke, full-suss mountain bikes? Technology moves on and I certainly don't want to be riding the same bike for the next 20 (or even 10, or more likely 5!) years, but in reality that's what you're saying you'll do as the resale value of these bikes will be absolutely dire - not necessarily because of the brand (although that probably won't help), but because noone else will want to buy a bespoke bike that wasn't bespoked for them.

Also, not a fan of the look of either bike, I'm afraid :-/

Your point being? neither do custom geometry. They also are UK owned , and not UK built.

If we're getting picky i bet many of the components on the British Built bikes are not British too then.

My point is, that many on here riding Orange/Whyte/On-one/Bird etc are not staying away from British niche companies as you seem to imply. In simple terms, as stated by more than a few, no-one is buying this particular British bike because it's 1. Ugly, 2. Expensive, 3. Unknown.

While the Robot frames appear very clever, I've wondered since day one what advantages they really offer over the 'custom' mitred, bonded and wrapped joints that other manufacturers have been doing for quite a while, the only explanation I can think of is Because Technology!

I can't deny it is a reasonable solution to the problem of making various carbon bike frames, without needing to rustle up a new mould tool every time, but a cheaper, simpler solution did already exist... And to buy something just because it's British is even more foolish IMO.

Of course we're all wired differently and certain things flick our switches more than others.

I will say this though, all the talk seems to be about custom carbon ego sleds and high end British made bikes, on a thread started by a man who is well known for designing popular and cost conscious hardtail frames, to me that's where the hidden gems lie if you want to resuscitate the British bike market (post credit crunch/austerity/Brexit) look to the affordable brands (Bird and Whyte have already been mentioned) not everyone is in the market for a superbike, but a good bike people can afford that was maybe just designed in the UK, that might turn my head...