Peak District MTB has submitted a call for reform to the UK Government’s inquiry on outdoor access.
Thanks to those involved for trying to get improved access.
The first picture is local to me...(north west side of Lantern Pike). It's clearly an old cart track that was built hundreds of years ago to connect local towns. It has a solid, rocky base with very little erosion. Unfortunately, a 600 metre section is recorded as footpath rather than bridleway. Cyclists and horse riders have used it for decades without any challenges or problems. However, the anti-cycling signs have recently appeared and a perfectly sound, wide gate replaced with drystone walls and a narrow kissing-gate.
Why has this been done?! I guess it's one of the farmers. Can't see how anyone gains from this retrograde step.
What can us individuals do to help gain access to these routes?
What can us individuals do to help gain access to these routes?
Lift your bike over the kissing gate and ride it like you always have (doesn't help the horsey lot though, who are similarly affected. Or eBikers, who won't have the strength 😉 )
It's an admirable cause, and I would bet the issue on Lantern PIke is what's kicked it off as it is ridiculous, but it just feels too woolly; who says a path is 'suitable'? What is defined as 'already in informal use'? What is essentially being asked for is a wholesale analysis and re-categorisation of the existing Rights of Way, which is a huge amount of work that won't happen.
I shall keep riding where I've always ridden, regardless of how that path is categorised, and have polite conversations with anyone who may object (which is incredibly rare). If they fail to have a polite conversation back then that's their day ruined, not mine.
What can us individuals do to help gain access to these routes?
if the route was used as a bridleway, but not designated as such, there are ways of makng a case to redesignate:
https://www.cla.org.uk/news/how-to-defend-claims-for-historic-rights-of-way/
the historic OS 25" maps are a useful source, some state "BR" ie bridleway, as seen here:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/114586124
on the eastern side of the sheet.
Stanley - I have ridden that path many times and did not know this has happened.
There's a section off the Gritstone trail (near Bowstones) above Lyme Park, Disley, which I've ridden since 1998. The bridle way runs along then off to the right is a perfectly suitable farm track (which again locals have ridden for decades) which is not a bridleway. Why these tracks can't be re classified into BWs is crazy, but I'm guessing the landowner (I'm not sure if it's the NT in this particular area) would need to care and maintain this. Eventually this track does come out near to the BW off Brickworks, Pott Shrigley.
There's a section off the Gritstone trail (near Bowstones) above Lyme Park, Disley, which I've ridden since 1998. The bridle way runs along then off to the right is a perfectly suitable farm track (which again locals have ridden for decades) which is not a bridleway. Why these tracks can't be re classified into BWs is crazy, but I'm guessing the landowner (I'm not sure if it's the NT in this particular area) would need to care and maintain this. Eventually this track does come out near to the BW off Brickworks, Pott Shrigley.
The bridleway stops at the end of the track from Bowstones, where it comes out onto the open land at Shit Pile Corner. Neither the track to the right that pops out at the Brickworks or the track straight on that goes over Sponds Hill (which is also the Gritstone trail) are bridleways, they're both footpaths. However, this is another good example of no-one caring, I've ridden both loads of times, seen loads of people, everyone's fine.
The landowner is Brinks Farm, who are at the top of the Brickworks road.
but I'm guessing the landowner (I'm not sure if it's the NT in this particular area) would need to care and maintain this.
Yes, but in practical terms there wouldn't be any difference whether it was a footpath of BW unless erosion was an issue. If it's a BW then more room has to be left for it e.g. after planting crops a path has to be cleared, or wider margin left around the edge of fields. If any work is done on it then there are different standards whether it was a BW or FP (e.g. it has to have gates suitable for horses) but there's no requirement to upgrade what's there or repair erosion.
The problem is there's no upside for the landowner. A bit more erosion just means a bit more maintenance for them, because whilst they don't have to repair that track for us, that (hypothetical) nice rocky step that's eroded in to make it a fun descent might be making it impassible on a quad. The (inevitable) litter get's eaten by livestock. The gates get left open. Diseases get spread between farms. There's more traffic passing through your farmyard. Unless you're going to diversify into a tea-room there aren't any upsides to the farmer.
What can us individuals do to help gain access to these routes?
if the route was used as a bridleway, but not designated as such, there are ways of makng a case to redesignate:
CLA.ORG.UK
the historic OS 25" maps are a useful source, some state "BR" ie bridleway, as seen here:
Or I could just carry on riding it and not worry about what the bureaucracy care to call it
I'm really not sure what this proposal brings.
There are 2 types of people that ride footpaths, those that don't know the rules and those that don't care about the rules. I don't have stats but I imagine the number of people that know AND care is pretty slim so how much impact is this really going to have.
Added to the fact that no one is going to agree on what constitutes as "suitable" plus RoW departments are already struggling so the likelihood of anything changing on the ground is super slim.
Don't get me wrong, I like PDMTB but I just don't get this.
I'm really not sure what this proposal brings.
There are 2 types of people that ride footpaths, those that don't know the rules and those that don't care about the rules. I don't have stats but I imagine the number of people that know AND care is pretty slim so how much impact is this really going to have.
A great example was given above of a footpath in the middle of a bridleway which has now had obstacles added to it. This affects riders whether they care or not.
There's similar issues several places in Kent. A good bridleway that is functionally useless because it only connects up to a footpath which the landowner has made as obstructive as possible.
Cycling UK have a tool to try to mark such missing links but I don't know if they do any advocacy based on this tool, you the reporter are supposed to bring it up with your council: https://action.cyclinguk.org/page/68755/action/1?ea.tracking.id=LP
It’s no good banging about the edges, you (In England/Wales) need full access, just like we have in Scotland. Your access rules are a joke, and the Landowners are laughing at the public. Labour will do little about this as they are in bed with the Landowners, it isnt the Labour Party of 40 years ago. It was Hilary Benn who objected to walkers passing through his land as it would ruin his privacy. IIRC, it is a coastal path, and he would not allow anyone to walk along the river/coast, so the coastal path bypasses his Estate.
I don't have stats but I imagine the number of people that know AND care is pretty slim so how much impact is this really going to have.
My missus cares, unfortunately. Which restricts what routes we ride together in the Peak.
I wouldn't ride footpaths in an area unfamiliar to me, i might do it locally if i know it's widely used as a permissive bridleway but I wouldn't travel to the Peak District and plan a route on footpaths with no knowledge of them. I've walked Mam Tor a few times and seen people cycling down footpaths, not sure what category that falls into....
Why has this been done?! I guess it's one of the farmers. Can't see how anyone gains from this retrograde step.
My experience is that farmers have enough to worry about so don’t really give a monkey’s as long as gates are shut (or left open) and people are considerate about their livestock or crops.
My understanding with this one is it’s the land of a farm that is no longer farmed so is just about land protectionism. Understandable if there was no official right of way but petty given it’s a short footpath joining two bridleways. Not sure if they’ve had any issues with off-roaders which could have driven the gate change.
Of course, there’s nothing stopping bikes being pushed / horses being led on footpaths - assuming gates don’t totally prevent access.
@alani can you point me in the right direction for your information about Hilary Benn please? It was my understanding that he was the minister involved with rights of way at one time but reclused himself from decision making.
Two links below, lots of others available with a search of the right terms - (Stansgate Abbey Farm, Hilary Benn, walkers access etc). Its a long time ago, so finding the true story is difficult, but from what I recall he was the Minister who was going to improve access, but then stopped Essex Council from arranging a long distance riverside path through his property.
https://www.countryside-alliance.org/resources/news/the-continued-issues-with-coastal-access
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/2054899.take-a-walk-on-the-wild-side-around-our-coast/
I'm really not sure what this proposal brings.
There are 2 types of people that ride footpaths, those that don't know the rules and those that don't care about the rules. I don't have stats but I imagine the number of people that know AND care is pretty slim so how much impact is this really going to have.
Added to the fact that no one is going to agree on what constitutes as "suitable" plus RoW departments are already struggling so the likelihood of anything changing on the ground is super slim.
Don't get me wrong, I like PDMTB but I just don't get this.
Yeah, pretty much this.
I care about damaging sensitive ground
I care about not riding obviously contentious tracks at busy times
I care about riding considerately
I care about not giving mtbers a bad rep.
But zero ****s given about the classification of a track tho
It's still alive!
Living in the Derbyshire Dales, a lot of the good riding is footpaths. The thing to do if/when riding them is to remember that it's a footpath and ride accordingly and respectfully. Obviously some people will think that riding them in the first place isn't being respectful, but....
Anecdotally - was riding from Beeley village to the bridge at Chatsworth the other day - big wide open field with a double track across it. An elederly couple chuntered at me - my response was that the farmer had seen me in there on numerous occassions and didn't seem bothered, so dont let it bother you - have a nice day
Anecdotally - was riding from Beeley village to the bridge at Chatsworth the other day - big wide open field with a double track across it.
I've considered riding that a few times to miss out that horrible stretch of road up to the bridge but always gone past the entrance before remembering it was there. Was never sure about the access at the bridge end either, how easy it is to get a bike through/over whatever gate there is.
Plus being near to Chatsworth, I always assumed I'd be much more likely to get complained at!
I've considered riding that a few times to miss out that horrible stretch of road up to the bridge but always gone past the entrance before remembering it was there. Was never sure about the access at the bridge end either, how easy it is to get a bike through/over whatever gate there is.
Plus being near to Chatsworth, I always assumed I'd be much more likely to get complained at!
There's a low 5 bar gate that's easy to lift the bike over - and it opens, and a low kissing gate to walk through. As you say the stretch of road is horrible and I'll avoid riding it if there's another option.
I've ridden it dozens of times and I think I've been challenged twice, both by red socks. As I say, I've seen the farmer in his 4x4 and never had any issues
I don't have stats but I imagine the number of people that know AND care is pretty slim so how much impact is this really going to have.
My missus cares, unfortunately. Which restricts what routes we ride together in the Peak.
You should probably address that first because its an unnecessary self imposed restriction. Why do they have a problem with riding footpaths? I assume because they see it as being wrong... its not wrong, you just don't have a legal right. Getting people to understand the actual rights of way rules is far more important in my mind.
I wouldn't ride footpaths in an area unfamiliar to me, i might do it locally if i know it's widely used as a permissive bridleway but I wouldn't travel to the Peak District and plan a route on footpaths with no knowledge of them. I've walked Mam Tor a few times and seen people cycling down footpaths, not sure what category that falls into....
This proposal does nothing to address that.
How would you know if a footpath had now been updated to permissive? You'd have to wait years to check the definitive map, or wait even more years to check a guidebook, though as the permissiveness might be removed, I would guess it wouldn't be included in a guide book... Or you could ask on a forum, where people would say "I've ridden that path for years without issue".
Yeah, pretty much this.I care about damaging sensitive ground
I care about not riding obviously contentious tracks at busy times
I care about riding considerately
I care about not giving mtbers a bad rep.
But zero ****s given about the classification of a track tho
It's still alive!
These days I probably fall more on the side of Cheeky trails than committees and chairmen but I've never liked their childishness of it. We're not renegades sticking it to the man, we're middle-aged professionals trying to avoid the drudgery of modern life, have a proper grown up conversation and perhaps we'll get some grown up results.
I know that last bit is perhaps at odds with the first but I firmly believe we should educate the masses first and hobnob with the bigwigs last.
I shall keep riding where I've always ridden, regardless of how that path is categorised, and have polite conversations with anyone who may object (which is incredibly rare). If they fail to have a polite conversation back then that's their day ruined, not mine.
I should perhaps clarify this a bit, although I'd assumed it was implied.
I shall keep riding where I've always ridden, regardless of how that path is categorised, at all times adhering to Rule 1, and have polite conversations with anyone who may object (which is incredibly rare). If they fail to have a polite conversation back then that's their day ruined, not mine.
You should probably address that first because its an unnecessary self imposed restriction. Why do they have a problem with riding footpaths?
The utterly ridiculous part of it is that we have been through the whole stupid cycle already in Scotland. When we lived in Glasgow 25 years ago the acces laws were similar to England now. We religiously followed the rules and rode bridleways only and it was shit.
Then after we moved south they suddenly agreed the whole Bridleway/footpath thing was bollocks and dropped it.
And I regretted the wasted time.
But for some reason she is happy to go through the whole nonsense again in England.
I've had more 'interactions' on bridleways in the Peak District with walkers (mostly in the summer/tourist season)' than I ever had riding 'suitable', hardly used footpaths. Trying to explain to someone who is intent that we don't ride our mtbs anywhere, that we are on a BW (even being shown the OS map) is slightly frustrating.
I had a similar interaction with a group of hardy ramblers who were shouting at me "that I should ride on the road"
They went very quiet when I pointed out they were walking on an unsurfaced road.
I have also had massive tantrums from some walkers when riding legitimately.
You can't win with some people can you?
hardy ramblers who were shouting at me "that I should ride on the road"
unfortunately the current anti-bike 'culture wars' promulgated by r/w media is finding its way now to some in the 'rambling community', it's tedious, the roads are no fun for cycling and now it seems even off-road is getting fraught for bikes... I am seriously considering getting a kayak and heading out on rivers and loughs to get away from these nutters.
I've had more 'interactions' on bridleways in the Peak District with walkers (mostly in the summer/tourist season)' than I ever had riding 'suitable', hardly used footpaths. Trying to explain to someone who is intent that we don't ride our mtbs anywhere, that we are on a BW (even being shown the OS map) is slightly frustrating.
MartynS of this parish has a great story of being harangued by a walker by a gate on the top of Mam Tor.
Walker - "You shouldn't be riding here, it's not a bridleway"
Martyn - "Yes it is"
Walker - "No it isn't"
Martyn - "Do you have the local OS map to hand?"
{Walker gets out map}
Martyn - "See that picture on the front, the one of two mountain bikers standing by a gate?"
Walker - "What about it?"
Martyn - "That's this gate"
and now it seems even off-road is getting fraught for bikes...
It isn't though. We've all had occasional grief from (mainly) walkers, because some people are just dicks, but 99.9% of my interactions with others when out on my bike have been entirely pleasant.
Peak District is by far the worse place I've ridden for angry busybodies itching to tell someone off.
I ride in the Peak District. I'll do a cheeky footpath where I'm not being a complete dick in doing so. Never had any issues with someone telling me I couldn't cycle there
Although that's not 100% true. Not the peak district but near me so about 8 miles from the edge of the Peak. Was cycling down a gravel road that I've cycled loads. When some numpty driving up it in a car stops and tells me I shouldn't be riding there as it's a footpath.
I mean technically it is but it's also access for a bunch of houses so if you can drive your car down here I sure as hell can cycle here.
It's clearly an old cart track that was built hundreds of years ago to connect local towns. It has a solid, rocky base with very little erosion. Unfortunately, a 600 metre section is recorded as footpath rather than bridleway. Cyclists and horse riders have used it for decades without any challenges or problems
Similar situation near Castle Combe. There’s a track running from Castle Combe to Long Dean, that’s marked on maps as a bridleway, running as it does along and up the side of the valley, then down into Long Dean, the only route that avoids the river. Trouble is, at the parish boundary it changes to a footpath, from around the time rights of way became registered by councils in the 60’s.
You can see it on this section of map…
You can see where it changes between Lower Colham and Colham Mill. I haven’t ridden it for quite a few years, and it does involve hoiking your bike over a gate! Ok if it’s my singlespeed, not so much my hooligan hardtail.
Peak District is by far the worse place I've ridden for angry busybodies itching to tell someone off
There's very little in the Peak District that's both properly remote and suitable for riding to get away from folk like that.
Lake District is much easier - away from the tourist hotspots is generally fine. That said, there were certain bridleways in the Lakes that I wouldn't ride during a summer weekend. Even though we had every right to be there it was just exhausting and slow and frustrating dealing with hordes of walkers.
I reckon the answer is either crack of dawn or mid-evening rides. Then you can go more or less where you want.
Question 1: Is it wrong to quite enjoy it when someone gets all upity at me?
(Aside from.being on a footpath - completely unprovoked, riding considerately etc)
I love being all cheerful and polite while I explain exactly how much I care what they think while they get even more upset.
I've no idea what is wrong with someone who thinks it's alright to start screaming at a stranger for an incredibly minor transgression in the grand scheme.od things.
Question 2: if someone is riding a surron somewhere they shouldn't, but is doing so considerately, do you think about challenging them?
My own answer to question 2 is that it does pop into my head....wish it didn't...but then I remember it would be throwing stones in glass houses so live and let live innit
I was walking in the park earlier, a couple of lads cruising round but very steady and it was quiet. I'm alright with that.
Peak District is by far the worse place I've ridden for angry busybodies itching to tell someone off.
I think it depends on where abouts in the Peak District
My own experience is that the closer you get to the Hayfield/Edale centre of Right to Roam, the more the concept of ‘Right to Roam’ for the masses is lost and the more it becomes about ‘My Right to Roam’ …. the exact attitude that was challenged a hundred years ago.
The fact that this area is also the closest to the largest conurbations near the Peak District (Manchester and Sheffield) is not a coincidence when it comes to the amount of older, seemingly ‘hardcore’ middle class walkers with time on their hands and a rucksack full of self-centred attitudes to be shared.
tells me I shouldn't be riding there as it's a footpath.
This is my whole point though, you ARE allowed to ride on footpaths, you just don't have a legal right.
Reframing no legal right as being illegal has now stuck in the minds of the general public and we need to undo that.
I know most of the vocal opponents to cycling probably won't listen but we shouldn't be self limiting ourselves or others.
Whilst I find PDMTB's tenacity compelling, it's not something I can get particularly excited about.
20-25 years and I think the roll call of success is:
Elmin Pit climb.
Allowed to dig some drains along Derwent Edge.
Some consideration given to MTB on Whinstone Lee Tor to Cutthroat Bridge.
Moving some mud and stones around at The Roaches.
In that time we've seen Lockerbrook flattened, Rushup Edge half flattened, Chapel Gate sanitised, Screaming Mile flattened. Etc.
Whilst I do admire these groups, they are investing a hell of a lot of their time and effort for a few crumbs from the table. That's great if lobbying and campaigning is what gets you excited. But, ultimately, they have zero clout and a particularly militant landowner will always do what they want and get away with it 99% of the time.
🤷♂️
Not enjoying the £74,000 raised for helicopters lifting slabs on to cut gate then? Not relieved Cavedale didn't follow Pindale? Not ridden the conduit at the west of ladybower, which avoids the A57?
Benny Goodman was at the end of around a century of campaigning and lobbying. And even then it took many more years for a change to happen.
Don't forget we've had - in your 25 year estimate - 14 years of a government truly uninterested.
And its nearer 15 years anyway - Rushup is what galvanised it. And it's not just the same people.
But, ultimately, they have zero clout and a particularly militant landowner will always do what they want and get away with it 99% of the time.
This is becoming a massive problem as landowners and developers work out the loopholes. Trees and historic buildings especially, public rights of way is the next easy target.
Landowner / developer asks to chop down some trees or demolish a listed but derelict building. Permission denied. Developer does it anyway then claims some incredible coincidence in miscommunication. It's astonishing how many buildings spontaneously combust only a week or so after permission has been denied.
Oh well, now that the trees have all gone, we may as well pay the £50,000 fine, then develop the site anyway - the development that'll make millions in profit and a £50,000 fine is basically just collateral.
Same applies in trail access / maintenance. By the time the council gets around to inspecting something the landowner has done, it becomes so expensive to resolve it that the landowner is holding all the cards. Gosh, did I accidentally block a public right of way? Oh well, it's been like it for a year now and I've built a lovely extension right over it so best just leave it as is.
^^+1
See also "gosh did we accidentally put 20 tonnes of industrial aggregate on a SSSI? Thanks for letting us know before we did it to another"
Cavedale was, literally, a couple of days from being done until we got involved.
And they only responded due to the (apparent lack of) clout we were able to pull on to get the media involved and rally troops very quickly.
Great to see the debate above, just to expand on the first point that has been picked up in a few comments 'A legal right to ride suitable footpaths already in informal use.'
At PDMTB we recognise the challenges and complications that exist with this objective, its an ambitious call and would need work to define the specifics. We have been informed that the Scottish system is off the table, however Labour have committed to improve access to Nature, and the call for evidence is seeking opinion on how new legislation and policy could enable more people to make use of existing access opportunities and public rights of way. We await the all party parliamentary group's deliberations, in the mean time we are continuing to push for increased access in the Peak District where we can.
We also encourage anyone reading this to contact your local MP to raise the issue.
