[Closed] Pay to play & Trail tax

The linky doesnt work.

In the modern world, it's difficult to fight any battle without funds.

It's complicated and fraught with difficulties but I do see the need for an organisation with money. This is coming from someone who prefers natural rights of way to purpose built trail centres.

Not sure I'd donate to fund more man made trails as I disagree with that being the future of MTBing.

If it was to fund campaigning for open access across the existing rights of way network then that's a different story.

I don't think it says anything about funding man made trails does it?

Working linky;

http://kofthep.com/2015/09/29/money-makes-the-wheels-go-round/

Dirt used to talk from time to time about trail tithing- that was mostly about digging time but it's a similiar concept, give X amount of your riding time to the trails.

I'm all for it tbh, I don't make cash contributions to mtb other than parking etc and obviously buying tons of crap, but I "donate" a fair amount of time and work, same idea. But so many people are mortally offended at the idea of paying £5 parking to ride a million pound trail centre, or complain bitterly when their favourite trail is closed but would never lift a finger to maintain it. There's a hell of a lot of entitlement in mountain biking.

I don't think it says anything about funding man made trails does it?

I assumed that's what they were talking about given they said the money would buy a lot of "spades and wheelbarrows"??

Great idea, especially the bit about local money going to local trails (for local people) with the added bonus that places with lots of bikers will get progressively more trails money. And will be discouraged from driving anywhere to ride their bike.

And for the record I would rather pay money than with labor, I can ride a bike but permanent injury makes spade and saws etc pretty dangerous.

Ah right. Having cleared out drainage ditches on 'natural' trails they were the tools we used so I just read it that way

poisonspider - Member

I assumed that's what they were talking about given they said the money would buy a lot of "spades and wheelbarrows"??

there's a heck of a lot of maintenance involved taking care of some popular 'natural' trails...

Pook - Member
Ah right. Having cleared out drainage ditches on 'natural' trails they were the tools we used so I just read it that way

That's very commendable however I really doubt that's what they meant.

Even if they did, I'd much rather have access to all trails than just better drained versions of the ones we have already.

Interesting idea. I'd happily cough up some readies to get sympathetic repairs done to key trails where needed. 🙂

Oooh. Could we also get a little paper disc to stick on our handlebars so when ramblers get arsey we can say we've paid for the path they're walking on? 😉

Oooh. Could we also get a little paper disc to stick on our handlebars so when ramblers get arsey we can say we've paid for the path they're walking on?

If you've paid for the trail to be built you can tell them to get the **** off and on to one of the thousands of footpaths they have exclusive use of!!

There's a hell of a lot of entitlement in mountain biking.

This has needed to be said for a while now....riders turn up at man made trail centres, contribute nothing it terms of payment to ride them...do all they can to avoid carpark charges and then ride smugly away on a bike costing several thousand pounds.

Maybe its because MTBing is an outdoor pursuit?...maybe its the health benefit?...maybe its the non polluting aspect of it?...either way it seems to give a lot of riders a holier than thou attitude and trying to get money from someone who wants to ride their bike is like getting blood from a stone.

The usual response is 'I don't ride trail centres'....fine, this doesn't apply to you then....other times people say 'if I had to pay I wouldn't go there'...fine, p**s off and try and find some natural trails, you'll be back in no time!

What I would happily contribute to is a campaign for open access laws in England and Wales much like Scotland, that would do wonders for getting people out and about and taking the strain off trail centres.

This has needed to be said for a while now....riders turn up at man made trail centres, contribute nothing it terms of payment to ride them...do all they can to avoid carpark charges and then ride smugly away on a bike costing several thousand pounds.

Let's face it, a lot of the new skool MTBers are just tossers really.

I constantly feel guilty about not doing more than paying for parking where I go riding, but the suggestion sounds complicated to me.

Massive potential for unhappiness over allocation of money, and classing one cause as being more worthy than another. (Trust me, I'm an accountant!) People who donate will also feel an element of ownership to the money, so would get disenfranchised if they don't think it's working well for them.

I think a direct payment model like we see for parking would be simpler and probably work better. Areas are given references, which can then be used to give money directly to those who maintain that area. Could be done simply via PayPal.

Massive potential for [accountants] unhappiness over allocation of money, and classing one cause as being more worthy than another. (Trust me, I'm an accountant!)

Just clarifying there

I'm a pikey so come from a No dig No ride background.

Golfing Dentists don't. those fannies love to pay for stuff. solution solved 😉

Erm - it's not normally the accountants who are unhappy! They're just doing their job, which is usually doing what the boss wants to happen. It's the people who are impacted by the allocation of funds who end up getting emotional...

I remember IMBA UK trying but not really getting anywhere.

Maybe they were ahead of their time, maybe that time is now. Annual membership for £50 or a £100 would be no hardship for a number of people on here. Even at that, the price per ride would be pretty low.

1, the funds wouldn't be for trail centres or natural trails specifically, the local advocacy group would have free choice on what they could use them for

2, everyone saying they would pay to get open access implemented should join the CTC. Despite being predominantly road based they have been suggesting that footpaths should be opened up to cyclist for years and are one of the main groups behind Open MTB

3, people really should look into understand the legalities of riding on footpaths before complaining that you cant

Agree about the legalities of riding footpaths but where they are can also have an impact on whether/when you might ride them as well.

're the ctc, rightly or wrongly, I'd feel more supportive of a group focusing on mountain bikers. It feels like both ctc and bc view us as the poor cousin.

3, people really should look into understand the legalities of riding on footpaths before complaining that you cant

What do you mean by this?

That it's not really that 'illegal' and we should ride them anyway (which I do, frequently)?

Or

It's a bad thing and we shouldn't do it?

Christ you lot are dull.

Onzadog...

Where and when applies as much to bridleways as it does footpaths. There are loads of overly busy bridleways and loads of quiet footpaths but I think we're on the same page.

I support the CTC mainly as I ride road and they provide insurance, their MTB work is secondary but I think its a bit foolish to bin off all the work they've already done as its taken years, starting from scratch puts us on the back foot.

We're all accountants 😛

I've said for a long time I'd be happy to contribute to more trails and the upkeep of the ones we have, but here lays the problem.

I live in South Wales, as far as the various quangos that run the Principality are concerned they'd rather we didn't build 'natural trails' (a phrase I think is a bit of an oxymoron but there you go) they'll turn a blind eye to most, unless you start building massive shady looking things out of wood and then stamping your website all over them (I'm looking at you Aberdare MTB) but if you started getting organised and whatnot they won't be able to.

So we have all the trail centres and of course BPW.

BPW is a commercial venture, 'pay to play' is very much part of it - it's going to cost you £30 ish for a day on the uplift, £6 or so if you're prepared to push/ride up, plus whatever you want to spend in the excellent Café - I think it's good value, but if I went every week I'd be broke.

The trail centres are a bit different, they were built usually by local authorities way-back-when in conjunction with FC. Hugely updated and upgraded a couple of years ago thanks to Cognation which was a joint Welsh Assembly / EU project - so Council Tax payers in the area and everyone in the EU who pays taxes paid for them. They're maintained by Natural Resources Wales. They don't take donations for the trails - they also won't let you build anything nor maintain anything outside of official 'build days' which are rare.

The trails are free to use (tax contributions aside) but you've usually got to pay for parking - which varies from site to site.

Yes some people are a bit dickish and will avoid paying for parking, it's not a generational thing, or a 'new rider' thing IMHO, some people would just rather not pay for anything - personally I think their is a certain mentality in some sections of Welsh society which says that the state should provide everything and they rarely see the connection between tax revenue and public spending - but they're by no means the majority.

However, it's worth noting - just because you pay to park to ride, it doesn't mean you're paying to ride, you're paying to park - for example - Cwmcarn original trails built by FC, new trails built by Cognation - maintained by Natural Resources Wales - the Carpark, was completely rebuilt as part of Cognation with EU and Welsh Assembly money - BUT it's operated by Caerphilly Council, none of the money they take for parking is routed back to the trail network, it's a completely different branch of funding.

I think this sort of almost charitable 'pay to play' system might work in other countries where you're allowed to go out in the wilderness and build fun stuff to ride - but here at least, it's not really feasible - if you really nail it down we're all paying 20% on everything we buy for biking into the 'tax pot' it's up to Government (local and national) to decide how much of that, if any goes into Mountain Bike facilities.

I would and often do pay to play, I have no problem with it, as long as its cheap enough to be accessible for all. I can't afford the time to dig trails so I am always happy to contribute money to any trail digging ventures.

Supporting openmtb doesn't mean starting from scratch and dumping ctc and all their work. Why doesn't openmtb pick up where they left off in the hope they can drive it forwards by virtue of being mtb focused. It would be nice to think that ctc might still offer support and guidance as it still benefits cyclist overall.

poisonspider - What do you mean by this?

Unless a specific by-law has been passed, it is not illegal to ride on footpaths.

Walkers have the legal right to be on a footpath, cyclists do not. This does not mean its illegal despite what most people like to believe.

I'm in the process of writing a clarification article which will hopefully be published on at least one trail advocacy group's website, I'm just struggling to structure it into a readable piece.

Onzadog...

CTC are a big part of Open MTB already

CTC are a big part of Open MTB already

Does that mean supporting openmtb or ctc result in the same benefits for trail access?

If so, that's great news. Take me as an example. Never thought to support ctc but the creation of openmtb has my interest. Overall, that's a win for the trails right?

I think people are going off at a tangent here. My understanding of the proposal is an [u]optional charitable donation[/u] on all bike and bike part purchases, not an enforced price hike to pay for someone's trail centre

Then the simple answer to your question is, yes, I think it's a good idea to have charitable donations when you buy bikes and bits that go to support groups working to maintain and improve access.

I also think an annual subscription to the group/body would be useful as well as I often go a year without a big spend on bikes.

Onzadog - CTC are a big part of Open MTB already
Does that mean supporting openmtb or ctc result in the same benefits for trail access?

If so, that's great news. Take me as an example. Never thought to support ctc but the creation of openmtb has my interest. Overall, that's a win for the trails right?

Sort of, yes. Only difference is Open MTB is free to support, CTC costs you, but the you do get a lot of stuff back and that money is used to support your access in some way

Does that mean supporting openmtb or ctc result in the same benefits for trail access?

If so, that's great news. Take me as an example. Never thought to support ctc but the creation of openmtb has my interest. Overall, that's a win for the trails right?

The are working very closely together (with both BC and CTC) in order to try and improve off road lobbying power

an example being whats happened under the [url= http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1689&ea.campaign.id=41461&ea.tracking.id=CP ]#Trailsforwales[/url] banner

The structure of open MTB isn't entirely settled yet - however its unlikely that anyone is looking for a national membership organisation (ie. not IMBA-UK mk2) - possibly more like an umbrella that more local groups (e.g.. singletraction, ride sheffield, PDMBA etc.) work under.

PS, I don't think its the role of the rider to fund trails through some voluntary donation either - I'm convinced that the industry itself needs to do a whole lot more

There was a great interview with Vernon Felton - Senior Editor, Bike Magazine a while ago:

[i] cried when Gwin won that World Cup race without a chain. Cried like some giant, man-baby, it was so beautiful. I can't get enough of racing... Hell, it's why I named my first daughter ''John Tomac''. That might make her dating life awkward, but we all have our crosses to bear. Yep, love me some racing, but I also believe the bike industry's biggest mistake was to sink so much money into professional racing for so many years and, relatively speaking, so little money into trail advocacy and development. How many companies had team managers, masseurs, fancy big rigs, World Cup teams and national series squads? Now, how many companies fielded full-time advocacy directors? I can count them on one hand - that's downright shitty.

Racing is inspiring, but all the shiny trophies in the world did nothing to grow our trail systems or increase access to the many places we still can't ride. If Julien Absalon wins his seventh World Cup Overall title this year, will it actually make mountain biking any better for you?

We're in a better, more balanced, place these days. I see things like the Bell Built grant program and I know we're on the right track. Still, we need to increase our investment in the one thing that actually makes riding better for riders - trails.
[/i]

Zero wouldn't pay a cent and wouldn't support it either.

I would

I hardly ever buy anything new, 0.05% of a set of pads wouldn't be much but I'd doubt I'd notice the donation even if it was a hefty purchase

What would it pay for? There are defined responsibilities for maintenance or RoW and trail centres are by and large commercial operations. Neither of which I feel any real responsibility to fund out of the goodness of my heart to be honest.

I can see a possible demand to pay for lobbying of an overarching organisation but I'd want it to be a damn sight more transparent than openmtb is at the moment. And the problem with lobbying for a disparate group like mtbers is that we often don't agree on what we want so someone

Just saying that putting money into a pot would be good is all well and good but the moment you do that then you need someone to look after it, and somewhere to keep it and usually someone to audit it. There comes a cost of just having money.

I think the author makes a valid point. Companies are making money plenty from selling MTBs and related kit. Contributing to trails would not only be nice, but could also result in them making more money!
Sadly, I think all they'd do is pass the cost on to the consumer.

If it's a voluntary charitable donation collected at the point of sale then how would this be a cost that is passed to the consumer?

It's not a tax on manufacturing and sales

If it's a reasonable trail, then I'd have no problem paying.
In the whitewater kayak world, we have lots of natural rivers that are free, but also a few man made courses that you pay for - the Nene WWC cost £12 for Sunday afternoons - they are always busy on sunny days.
Man made are nearly always available, even if the nearby river is not, they are safe, whereas a river is not always safe, you can go round and try the tricky bits again, showers and changing rooms available afterwards.
A little like MTBing at a trail centre.
Some people wont mind paying, others will carry on using the natural (free) trails,

... while others will ride the natural trails which have been campaigned for access to, maintained by and protected by groups who can afford to thanks to grant funding from this pot. I know groups who would really benefit from access to this kind of funding even if it's just paying for printing and binding!

alanl, I suppose the difference is that rivers don't really wear out. But most "natural" trails are no such thing, some are built from scratch by man and the rest mostly get maintained by man. At the moment, a lot of that falls on councils- leading to the sort of sanitisation everyone hates- or by randoms, which can be a bit dodgy and definitely puts work on a minority of shoulders

And on that note:

mrhoppy - Member

What would it pay for? There are defined responsibilities for maintenance or RoW and trail centres are by and large commercial operations. Neither of which I feel any real responsibility to fund out of the goodness of my heart to be honest.

Maybe it pays for more sympathetic maintenance of rights of way/bridleways. At the moment, we complain when a path we use gets steamrollered but we don't often put up many alternatives. We don't have that much of a voice and we struggle to provide the manpower to gain influence that way but money is always a good amplifier. Councils will do the cheapest possible repair, and probably rightly so, maybe your trail tithe is enough to get it done better. Matched funding, contractor support, that sort of thing. Or maybe it pays to train local trail build leaders (for legality/health and safety etc), or to insure volunteer groups, or for the little bit of manpower required for local rangers to work with volunteers... Or for a local trail advocate that can liaise and support other organisations and get their work to take us more into account. Tons of options.

I wish the self professed keeper of the peak would bugger off. You do not represent me!

Like lots of worthy idea's in principle it sounds fine. But in practice its a lousy idea 🙁 you'd need a mechanism to collect the money, then a mechanism to disperse the money. Bids would have to be put in,judgements made 😯 honestly can't people just ride their bikes without all that bollocks !!! I do without being a member of any committee or focus group or anything. But heyho as long as its voluntary carry on, just complicate the most simple thing in the world... Riding your bike.

Legspin, you've not said what you want instead.

There are a few people stepping up to the plate. If we don't like what they're doing, step up as well. Yes our wish list is varied but we will never be taken seriously or achieve anything if all people see is constant bickering.

Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions and offers a voice on trail advocacy. It's not even done for any sort of fame or bragging rites as its anonymous.

Someone giving up their free time to make mountain biking better for all.

Seriously, what's not to love?

Taxi25, I thought exactly the same as you back when IMBA-UK first tried to get things off the ground over here.

Seeing first hand what is happening in the Peak District makes me wish that myself and others had supported them back then.

There's no point trying to fix things when it's too late, that's why it's called too late.

At the risk of over exaggerating a bit, all it take for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Onzadog. I can't comment on the peak district, I don't live there, don't ride there, probably never will. If you and others see problem's and feel you have to do something, carry on. But never assume you or any group speak for every person who rides a Mtb. Locally I can ride pretty much where I want, when I want with just basic common sense exceptions. I don't need people fighting for me to ride places I or more or less no one else wants to ride.
I don't want to pay a levy for some quango to dish out money to people to dig up the countryside, or print out flyers campaigning for rights to access no that no one (with very few exceptions ) give a stuff about.
Just remember never presume that what concerns you is a problem for others, and that your voice is for anyone other than youself.

What taxi said.

I can kind of understand that, albeit with less teenage angst, as I too disagree with my local group all the time but that doesn't mean I don't support the idea of someone somewhere wanting to improve their situation

Taxi25, I envy your position but it does feel that you're saying because it's not your voice, there should be no voice.

I can see an argument for keeping issues local but I can also see small local groups being considered a minor inconvenience to the powers that be.

Finger crossed that this gets off the ground and helps in places like the Peak. With a bit of luck, it becomes nationally recognised and you'll never feel the ripples of what's happening here, anywhere near you.

Basically the article is asking for people to set up local charges with donation boxes in Nike shops. Good idea.

I'd pay,just so I could rub it in the filthy ramblers faces, right before I kick em in the gunt and fart in their general director for thinking they own the peak District!

So much anger from some of you lot. I think the term I used to use when I was a kid was "take a chill pill".

This was just one anonymous person's idea

Even if you don't like the idea, surely the debate is a good thing.

Seriously, what's not to love?

The slightly odd dissonance between someone setting themselves up as the twitter representative of mountain bikers in the Peak and their/his/her continued anonymity? I'm not saying I blame them, but it's a bit Batman/Zorro. And I'm not knocking anyone, it just seems a bit odd.

I suspect it's because it's developed from a simple trail conditions twitter re-tweet feed, which is a great idea, to something a little wider. Not having a go, just wondering, you seem in with it all Podge, what's the anonymity about?

More generally, it seems like the kernel of a good idea, but but potentially a nightmare to administer. The idea of the industry putting some budget towards promoting trail riding as well as racing has more resonance with me tbh.

With a bit of luck...you'll never feel the ripples of what's happening here

legspin - Member
I wish the self professed keeper of the peak would bugger off. You do not represent me!

kotp is (primarily) a twitter feed, which anyone can contribute to, it's a shared resource.

BadlyWiredDog - Member
what's the anonymity about?

firstly, the name of TKOTP wasn't important, no-one cared.

now it's become a somewhat amusing in-joke.

Dave, his name's Dave, Dave Smith.

happy now?

I would happily make a contribution along the lines suggested. Question of course is who do I pay it to?

deviant - Member
There's a hell of a lot of entitlement in mountain biking.
This has needed to be said for a while now....riders turn up at man made trail centres, contribute nothing it terms of payment to ride them...do all they can to avoid carpark charges and then ride smugly away on a bike costing several thousand pounds.

It might be controversial this, but this also applies to the "new economy" of the internet, where everything is deemed to be free. I'm amazed at the number of regular contributors to this forum who don't seem to contribute towards its upkeep (or if they do it's not through the approximate 75p per week membership cost). As I see it, Singletrack do an awesome job to allow our sport/hobby this forum and most of us give very little back. How many people that sell gear on the forum actually pay a percentage back to the company? Very, very few.

Rant over - and I'll declare an interest, I don't work for Singletrack but I am in publishing and know what a tough gig it is nowadays - but all this does seem to be symptomatic of a wider issue in a sport/hobby where the majority think nothing of a couple of grand on a bike, or even £100 on a set of handlebars...

I don't think KotP has set themselves up as a representative of mountain bikers in the Peak. They are someone who has set up a crowd sourcing service to assist people, predominantly mountain bikers. When I worked in Hope I used to check it to see what the driving conditions were likely to be and whether I should maybe take the bike plus I know a few walkers who check it too.

KotP also works side by side with PDMTB, they both have the interests of cyclists in mind and both are centred in the Peak. I guess they didn't set out to be representatives, they just took it on and worked with like minded people when they saw something was missing.

As for the anonymity bit. I thought it was odd too but its not that hard to work out who it is (its not me) and it give them the ability to have a kind of professional and private life. Really is it any different to you giving yourself the username BWD on here and on your blog instead of being John Smith or whatever your actual name is?

Dave, his name's Dave, Dave Smith.

happy now?

I wasn't unhappy to begin with, I was just wondering as it seemed odd. Not so much as a twitter feed, but when an anonymous twitter account started making representations to the Rushup Edge enquiry thing it seemed a bit odd.

v8ninety - Serious question

There have been a number of instances where the local council have resurfaced tracks under the guise of "improvements" however the majority of users (not just mountain bikers) have been very unhappy with the works and would have preferred the tracks left as they are.

Around the same time the council were arguing that they should spend 70K on these track upgrades they were also making all the lollipop crossing people redundant

I'd be more than happy to donate to "MTB friends of the Peak District" on the basis that MTB interests where upheld and daft trail,destruction like that on Rushup Edge could be halted. FWIW I ride in the Peak about once or twice a year as its a 3.5hr drive, it's probably my favourite destination

BadlyWiredDog - Not so much as a twitter feed, but when an anonymous twitter account started making representations to the Rushup Edge enquiry thing it seemed a bit odd.

To some extent @kotp is now a brand or a known quantity, Dave Smith is a no one.

If BWD was organising a ride people might think "Oh, I know him. I might go on that, he knows loads of good rides". If John smith was organising a ride you wouldn't necessarily get the same return.

jambalaya - I'd be more than happy to donate to "MTB friends of the Peak District" on the basis that MTB interests where upheld and daft trail,destruction like that on Rushup Edge could be halted.

Thats basically what is being suggested albeit the donation is collected at the point of sale as a minor % of the product cost and MTB friends of the Peak District or PDMTB would collect that from the bigger national pot as having a big national pot is far easier to administrate.

Really is it any different to you giving yourself the username BWD on here and on your blog instead of being John Smith or whatever your actual name is?

I think it is subtly different yes, but I take your point.

Manufactures sell bikes and the blingy bits.

Seems like they should get a bit more (?even more?) involved in trail maintenance/access advocacy.

We're going off topic a bit here but kotp is a person who is giving freely of their time to help others and it seems to have evolved where that "reach" is being used to help promote trail advocacy. If it was me, I'd want some anonymity as well just so I could maintain a bit of a private life.

Given how selfless that person is, it sometimes feels like it must be a pretty short list of who it might be. Feels like this might be a chance to change direction and do a bit that helps others. Let's call it the corbyn effect.

BaronVonP7

They should but its never really going to happen because they are a business and the job of a business is to make money.

Bell do a kind of trail advocacy thing but we don't buy bell helmets because of that, we buy them because they are silly cheap at Halfords.

Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions

Which is awesome if your such a dumb ass you cant actually decide if its banging it down, has been banging it down, or Noahs ark is in attendance due to floods, that it might be stupid to go out on a bike in the peak

If you feel so strongly why does KOTP and PDMTB not just put some charity donation buckets on some posts up in the peak for the feel better crowd to throw a few quid in?

Honestly it doesn't need organising to ride a bike just common sense amongst users.

Because they'd last a day before they were emptied?

phil, do you need a hug?

you're being awfully negative about something that's very, very easy for you to ignore completely.

some trails hold up to wet-weather better than others, you could write a list, but you'd have to update it frequently - hence the twitter feed.

I like this idea. When we started doing desperately-needed trail maintenance around Bristol, I just did the rounds of the local bike shops, asked for a few quid, and got the tools we needed. That was a fair amount of legwork, and it also meant that the financial burden of kitting us out fell on a few small businesses, rather than the wider mountain biking community. It's fair to say that there isn't a lot of spare cash sloshing around in the MTB industry, but the collective purchasing power of its customers is pretty decent.

There is also precedent - of a sort - in the visitor payback schemes that some rural areas are introducing. The Lake District scheme raises about £100,000 a year. This is targeting consumers rather than tourists but still - £100k would fund a lot of trail maintenance and advocacy work.

https://nurturelakeland.org/

I like what that Lakeland lot are trying to achieve. Their Sustainable Challenge Events echoes what happened with the BHF ride a month or so back.

I think the Peak district and to a lesser extent mountain bikers in the Peak could learn a lot from it.

I think I do my bit for local trials I'll do dig days whenever and I understand that I'm also digging for out of towners as well. As long as they don't leave their Rockstar/Redbull and tear offs on the trails I'm happy.

philxx1975 - Member
Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions
Which is awesome if your such a dumb ass you cant actually decide if its banging it down, has been banging it down, or Noahs ark is in attendance due to floods, that it might be stupid to go out on a bike in the peak

If you feel so strongly why does KOTP and PDMTB not just put some charity donation buckets on some posts up in the peak for the feel better crowd to throw a few quid in?

Honestly it doesn't need organising to ride a bike just common sense amongst users.

Not sure why this has turned into a critique of KOTP but I have to say the above is a little harsh. I'm hoping it's for comedic effect rather than just being moronic.

I often use @KOTP to get and give updates on trail conditions and I've been riding in the Peak for 20 years. The trails in the Peak can be unpredictable, some, even after heavy rain can still be ridable, whereas others take a while to dry out (Cut Gate for example). It's always worth knowing what others have experienced.
Additionally, KOTP has connections, useful ones for MTBers. For example, I reported a tree down across one of the faster bits of the screaming mile, within the hour KOTP had passed it on to a contact at Severn Trent who were going to get up there to remove it. What's not to like about that?

Just had a beer with KoftheP and she's ace, I live in the Peak and would not dream of getting my bike out of the garage without checking in with her first!!

However, someone taking the time and effort to help those who can't just stick their heads out of the window to check the weather (and it can be very different in the Hope Valley compared to Sheffield) it may just save someone driving out only to have to go home because it's a bit too moist for them.

Re funding, it's fine to bang on about whose responsibility it is to maintain a trail but it they don't have the resources, funds or personnel to do it then they may head for the cheap quick solution - planings sprinf to mind.

KoftheP - just keep doing whay you are doing and looking sexy 😉