[Closed] Patrol or Reign?

Patrol!

Patrol, had plenty of stick and rides great.

No experience of a reign but no bad experience of my patrol

Patrol

I've briefly ridden the patrol and it was a good bike, the elephant in the room for me was the cost of the carbon frame (the Ali frame is quite porky!), for not much more you are looking at a decent full build Reign. There have so been instances pf poorly aligned patrol's, which is not what you would expect at that price.

Geometry wise there isn't a lot to pick between the two, main difference is maestro vs fsr. Both now have bearing mounted shocks (patrol previously bushing), which gives a benefit to lower breakaway force/less stiction.

Can't comment on the metric shock, but having replaced the monarch on my Reign with a Float X2, I would be doing the same with any future bikes, monarch isn't up to the job on an enduro type bike.

I wouldn't get to hung up on the carbon rear end, rear of the Reign is plenty stiff enough and I can't see them saving much weight without sacrificing durability. Same with the press fit bb, fit the hope pf41 and there will be no issues.

I can climb steep technical terrain on the Reign, but it's no XC whippet.

Both are great bikes. Which colour do you prefer?

Thanks, some great points there. A couple of things bother me about the Patrol. Firstly, the two year warranty. A bit of a joke considering it's Santa Cruz money which come with a lifetime warranty and free bearings. If I was to go for the Patrol I'd go frame only as I have a brand new XT M8000 group/brake set sat here doing nothing and some of the complete builds are eye wateringly expensive.

The other is that reading the reviews of the Patrol the recommended sag is 35%, do people find this causes more pedal strikes as a lot of my climbing is natural rocky stuff?

How do they size up? I'm 5' 9" with a 32" inseam so stuck in the middle of medium and large.

Which colour do you prefer?

That's twice I've been asked that question! I'm not a fan of red bikes but like the neon red/black of the Reign but again I do love the TR blue. I'm bikeless at the moment, Reign is due end of Nov/Dec but the Patrol is in stock now.

If you are after a small frame this is a bargain [url= http://www.tswcycles.co.uk/giant-reign-advanced-27-5-1-s-green-2016-enduro-bike-ex-display.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvIO_BRDt27qG3YX0w4wBEiQAsGu3eWH5fr7eMqyVBKZFOTRHYHULrJp8GsWwzGzTcq1vT0QaAll38P8HAQ ]tsw cycles[/url]

I had a Reign as my only bike for many years and switched to a Covert. TBH both were/are very good bikes. My Covert is better as it has much more modern geometry (2012 vs 2006). If you are comparing like for like then it will be much closer, I think Transition would be my choice. Both climbed pretty well and of course descend brilliantly. Personally I am not a fan of carbom mtb's. I haven't checked recently by Tansition was much less frame for frame than SC.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Had a go on this the other day and it was beefy. Really good for racing i reckon. Was I think the top spec aluminium version for 2017 and I actually really liked it. Really nicely specced and o felt pretty at ease with it. Only had one run mind in a bike park

Also tried a patrol actually but it was a medium and too small for me , but felt like a little hard tail, was great fun and easy to pop etc

The other is that reading the reviews of the Patrol the recommended sag is 35%, do people find this causes more pedal strikes as a lot of my climbing is natural rocky stuff?

35% sag is a lot for that type of bike, I run my Reign at 25%, as any more makes it quite wallowy and bottoms out a lot.

The other is that reading the reviews of the Patrol the recommended sag is 35%, do people find this causes more pedal strikes as a lot of my climbing is natural rocky stuff?

Scout is the same, well they say 33%. I had some strikes at first but you soon get used to it and come to love it.
Both are great bikes but i'd personally go with the Patrol if you're after something with pop and not so bad climbing. The reign could be marginally better hammering it down trails.

Thanks everyone.

Quite a few people have mentioned the Patrol is 'poppy' where as the Reign tends to feel a little less involved. Still wary of the 2 year warranty on the Patrol where the Reign has a lifetime.

howsyourdad, how tall are you to find the medium too small out of interest?

I have an alloy Patrol, so you can guess where I'd be pointing you. 35% sag seems a lot - but it works great for me. Really active and yet poppy at the same time when pointed down and traction is almost caterpillar like pointed up. Avoid 175mm cranks though, complete bikes all come with 170 cranks for a reason.

There's a monster Patrol thread on Pinkbike and an FB group that might have previous Reign owners...

I'm 182cms of raw power.

I think the patrol is a lovely bike, great for messing about on, you could even take it to the bmx track , brilliant for manuals etc, but the reign felt like a bike for enduroing enduroists etc. But that's maybe just me.

I've owned both and am very happy with my current Reign (2015 alu reign 1).

The patrols not a bad bike but it just didn't live up to all the hype, the rear suspension can be quite harsh over fast repeated square edge hits and no amount of shock tinkering sorts it (I put a ccdba on mine to try and solve it), if you read through the pinkbike forum there's a fair few people complain about this.

I also had to warranty the first frame as it cracked around the shock mount and both frames had shock alignment issues (again see the pinkbike forum).
It was also noisy (chain slap, cables etc) and the bearings were pretty much all shot after 3 months, which seems to be fairly common on them.

Saying all that though it was a quick bike and jumped really well it'd rail berms really well too.

As for the Reign, it's not the lump people think it is, mine comes in at just under 30lbs and it climbs/pedals as well as the patrol, jumps better and goes downhill way better (much, much plusher) and is a much better fit for me, it may not be quite as poppy as the patrol but I feel it does everything the patrol could but with much better suspension.

Also the alu ones also have a lifetime warranty and I paid not much more for it new than I sold the patrol for as it was last years model with a 40% discount.

I also had to warranty the first frame as it cracked around the shock mount and both frames had shock alignment issues (again see the pinkbike forum).
It was also noisy (chain slap, cables etc) and the bearings were pretty much all shot after 3 months, which seems to be fairly common on them.

Didn't want to hear that, was sold in the Patrol up until reading that. It's stuff like that and the short warranty that puts me off.

I may have just been unlucky and it was one of the early orange frames, plus windwave sorted me out fairly quickly with a replacement front triangle but they weren't interested in the worn bearings, although I have heard others managed to get them warrantied too.

It's definitley worth you looking at the pinkbike forum http://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=164496
There's a few reports of cracked carbon frames too, but then again there is on the equally extensive giant reign thread too....

Personally I dont think the weight saving is worth the extra cost over aluminium on either model.

Get the alu Reign, with the money you save over the carbon wack a fox X2 on it (got one on mine, awesome shock for the bike) and you'll never look back.....

Thanks travo, just read the last 10 pages of that and there's a lot of frame misalignment talk and again about dodgy paint. Have to say it's really put me off especially considering the cost of the frame.

The 17 Reign Advanced I fancy already comes with the X2.

No worries, well in that case get it bought!!
I know a few happy transition owners who swear by the brand, unfortunatly my experiance has put me off getting another one, I've got no complaints with the Reign over the last year though, easiest bike I've ever owned to get on with.
The lifetime warranty on the Giant should give you peace of mind too.

I've not ridden the Patrol but I own a Reign. It's brilliant. Previously I'd been a bit of a serial bike swapper. The problem with the Reign is that I can't find a fault to justify buying anything else. People who say it feels dead must be riding it with the Monarch shock in stock set-up. If you tune the Monarch properly it's great; with the X2 it's phenomenal, and you can set that shock up to be as lively as you like. The 2017 Advanced 1 is a stunner and they've got the build kit almost bang-on IMO (you can debate the own brand dropper if you're being really picky). It's so good that I'm considering scratching the new bike itch with another Reign. Giant warranty support have been faultless too (all componentry problems, no issues with the frame). Buy it. I'd be amazed if it's not the best mountain bike you've owned.

It's not a Patrol, but I had issues with my Scout... the original one I ordered in the black and green came covered in scratches, which looked like someone had taken a sharpie pen to in an attempt to cover them up. The dealer was great and took it back, and got me a green one instead (as I'd seen how easily the black scratched up!) - after the first couple of rides the lacquer started to flake off the seat stay bridge. Windwave/dealer again were great in getting a replacement sorted.

However I will say the paint finish on it is shocking. There are paint drips around the shock mount, the undercoat shows through at various points where the paint is applied to thinly and all the pivot bolts were obviously installed when the paint was still wet as the paint has kind of settled around the edges of the bolts. When I first removed the bolts to torque up properly this paint was flaking off.

In the end it's just paint, but for nearly £1400 for a frame I've seen better finishes on Halfords budget bikes!

Saying all that the bike is a blast ...

I've got a suppressor and its truelly confidence inspiring bike (well for me anyway). I've sorted the suspension out (no bands 30% sag), I'm not convinced they put the right tune of shock on the bike to start with though, but I'd get the shock custom tuned on any new bike anyway. The trannie is a great technical climber and totally shines on the way down. Climbing a fire road, particularly when standing up, gives pedal bob.

my bike has had no mechnical issues so far, the bearings are fine as is the shock alignment. There is a small rattle from the front cable entry point but its easy to sort if you can be arsed (I can't). Paint has been fine other than marks I've put in by falling off.

I do think the warranty is a bit pish at two years and the frame is not pretty expensive for an metal one at about £1750 when a metal bronson can be had for £1500ish

Go for the reign. Maestro is really good. Lifetime warranty. Aly rear triangle is a plus in my eyes (best of both worlds). Great spec when buying a full bike.

Doesn't the Reign use a Giant-specific offset on the fork? How would it ride if the fork was replaced with a normal offset fork?

I have the reign advanced One on order,coming from a Capra comp 1. Ridden the reign from this year and felt pretty nice. Live in the Alps and the only thing I am slightly concerned about is the carbon wheels, going to keep my pro 4s from the Capra in case any mishaps.

Am super happy with the Capra just the price on the reign I have been offered is way to good to resist and means I manage to stay up to date with my bikes.

Plus the advanced one is sex on legs!

Nothing giant specific on forks anymore since 2014.

It used to be thicker diameter steerers but they've gone back to normal standard ones in the past 3 years

Nothing giant specific on forks anymore since 2014.

The '15 & '16 Reign came with a Pike with a custom offset.

No idea if the '17 bikes are the same, I would assume not as they now come with different brands and models of forks, so not quite as easy to allow for.

Nothing wrong with my carbon Patrol so far - touch wood! Frame alignment checks out and the raw carbon finish obviously has no paint issues.

I've run my sag at 35% and did have pedal strikes - but I was running 175mm rather than the recommended 170mm cranks. I have now have moved to trying 30% sag and have not noticed any decreased suspension performance and have a little extra travel in reserve - so all good. At the same time I moved to 165mm cranks and the strikes are now pretty much zero.

As for the ride, it's a fun bike and strikes a good balance between travel and agility on the trails I ride. So far it's been excellent!

Thanks, a lot of talk of pedal strikes/sitting deep in its travel/short cranks is putting me off the Patrol as my local riding has a lot of natural rocky stuff. Not saying it won't happen on the Reign but it does sound like more of an issue with the Patrol.

Does anyone know if the Fox fork on the Reign has all the usual adjustments? It's a Fox 36 Float Performance Elite, 160mm Travel, FIT Damper, LSC Adjust. As far as I can see it has the lsc adjustment but maybe not the hsc adjustment?

I'm used to the RS stuff and a bit behind with the Fox stuff.

I went from an aluminium Reign, to a carbon Advanced 1, which I had for about 6 months (3 of which were in Whistler) and it unfortunately cracked. Giant then replaced it with a Team Advanced frame, which unfortunately they paint & lacquer started to fall off of. Giant were good with the warranty - and ended up giving me a replacement frame again, which I sold & told me I could keep my other one, which I also sold.

It was a good bike - a few minor annoyances being the slightly slack seat tube angle when you are tall puts you over the back wheel a bit, the frame hardware is a all a bit cheap & crappy & the paint on all of them being total turd.

Sizing is good - big without being outrageous. Very similar to the Patrol, with the main exception being the Patrol has a much more sensible seat tube angle.

The Reign is a bit of a plow bike - It's fast and needs its neck wringing to be fun - Maestro system is good. If you like boosting off stuff its probably not the bike for you. I ran mine with a Float X2 & it was a great shock on the bike, after a bit of set up fettling.

The Patrol has a normal threaded BB (good!) some better thought out features with cables etc and looks like a better 'finished' bike. on PB there does seem to be some people with some issues (with both bikes to be fair).

The ride is different - a lot more playful. It felt like crap with the Monarch on, 35% sag was terrible for me, I tend to run my bikes at 25% but it was really bad at that too - put another X2 on it & it's mint now.

It's a much more fun bike to ride, possibly a bit slower overall?

I have an XL Ali Patrol as my only bike this year, and I'm really happy with it. Its been greatly improved by putting a CCDB Air shock on it in place of the Monarch it came with, got rid of a tendency to feel a bit wallowy at times and now just feels planted and fun. I'm running a 170mm Lyrik up front and 2x10 drive train. Very pleased with it. I have used it for Alps DH tracks through to XC and while it feels a bit like overkill for XC is still perfectly manageable. Best bike over jumps I have ever owned I think. Not ridden the Giant so can't comment on that.

Thanks Hob Nob, some honest feedback there.

I was going to put a deposit on a Reign today but now the Nomad keeps coming to mind 🙂

Funnily enough I went from a Nomad to the Reign.

The Nomad wasn't big enough for me - it's a bit more conservative in sizing & I wasn't the biggest fan of how the suspension felt.

I know it's personal preference, because I gave my wife the Nomad & she loves it - personally I would put both the Patrol & Reign above the Nomad, that said I think it would be much better with a coil shock on.

I think if you are looking at stuff like the Transition & SC, (and it's partly me being a snob) is the Giant is just another Giant.

Patrols are lovely but if the shock choice and frame warranty puts you off then the 2017 Rallon X10 is worth looking at, 36 Factory RC2 forks, X2 shock, lifetime warranty and £3590. We have ordered our demo and stock bikes like this, so you get the workhorse XT stuff with the nice suspension.

[url=

picture link sorry[/url]

I'd largely agree with Hob Nob on the Reign's ride feel.

I did a review of the alu one here, in case it helps...
http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/review-giant-reign-2015/

Very good bike, but I never really "bonded" with it, if you know what I mean.

I think if you are looking at stuff like the Transition & SC, (and it's partly me being a snob) is the Giant is just another Giant.

I see what you're saying (I think), but I prefer that the giant is 'just' a giant and it goes under the radar. One thing that really puts me off the SC is the boutique/jealousy thing that it seems to come with.

Back to the sa on the Reign, I know it's slack but isn't it where the frame geometry positions your body in the saddle and not just the sa that dictates how it will climb?

As I posted both are great bikes. Transition is a small owner run company and Giant a massive global player. That featured in my move from my first bikes, a Specialised and a Giant to current line up of Transition and Cotic.

Paint scratched off on both my Giant and my Transition when I crash into rocks. It's a mountain bike not an ornament

Back to the sa on the Reign, I know it's slack but isn't it where the frame geometry positions your body in the saddle and not just the sa that dictates how it will climb?

The theory suggests that the Reign's seat angle won't change much when you're climbing on it, whilst the Patrol runs more sag rear vs front and has less anti-squat so won't hold itself up as well when you're pedalling. How much that evens things out in practice will depend on how long your legs are, as a high saddle will accentuate the seat tube slackness.

I had a reign, it was a beautiful thing but too much bike for me. It's a riot at DH uplifts but for a natural or TC ride, the trance is a far better bike. Transition aren't a Santa Cruz or yeti standard in my eyes, and as such, I'd not spend that kind of money on one. What are their US prices like compared to SC and yeti? It would be interesting to see if that's just where the distributor is pitching them here.

wrecker

Transition aren't a Santa Cruz or yeti standard in my eyes, and as such, I'd not spend that kind of money on one.

Correct. In fact you get a horst link carbon enduro frame from the same factory, using the same carbon, with very similar cost price at a lot less than the Transition costs.

Ooh jimjam do tell... ? Norco?

Transition aren't a Santa Cruz or yeti standard in my eyes, and as such, I'd not spend that kind of money on one

New, I agree, I think they represent not great VFM, but then i'm not sure any 'top end' carbon bikes do.

Finish wise it looks better than the Reign - not quite on a par with a Santa Cruz though.

I don't/can't class Yeti even at Transitions current level.

Ooh jimjam do tell... ? Norco?

Vitus Sommet? Canyon Strive?

I had a decent go on a Strive Race CF the other week actually and found it a superb all-round enduro bike.

Might be worthy of consideration as an alternative here?

howsyourdad1 - Member

Ooh jimjam do tell... ? Norco?

Much cheaper than Norco. But I should add the geometry is actually different, slightly, so the fit and ride wont be indentical. Was just commenting on Wrecker's point about them not being worth SC money.

Transition aren't a Santa Cruz or yeti standard in my eyes

I'm not sure people realise these trendy brands are all churned out by a few factories, eg my yeti was made by Giant. I'm sure my transition is a similar story.

I don't/can't class Yeti even at Transitions current level.

This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a while!

My Transition smuggler has been fantastic, the bearings are really well protected and have lasted amazingly well compared to my Giant Trance and Yeti ASR5 before that, the Trance in particular seemed to get through a lot and there were a lot to change. I've not ridden a Reign but the lack of joining bridge on the shock link, so the two halves can move independently and put lots of pressure on the shock mount would put me off.

I'm not sure people realise these trendy brands are all churned out by a few factories, eg my yeti was made by Giant. I'm sure my transition is a similar story.

I'm well aware there are only a 'few' decent carbon manufacturers out there who make bikes for multiple brands.

This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a while!

Why? My own experience was a sh*t show. The bike basically fell apart & was appallingly put together. As expected the warranty was a complete ballache to deal with, which considering my circumstances at the time made it even more amazing.

At a recent race there was a guy behind me grumbling with a current SB6 which was a few weeks old & had a tasty crack through the seat tube he'd only just spotted. It was his second warranty frame in less than a year.

So it's a toss up between a dull Reign with a lifetime warranty, cheap hard wear, crap paint and poor shock mounts.

Versus.

A Patrol with a 2 year warranty that will more than likely have alignment issues and flaky paint that sits too low in its travel?

My initial excitement of finally getting a new bike seems to have waned somewhat.

dull Reign

more than likely have alignment issues

Cobblers - you really need to not let people on internet forums sway your opinion so much! They're both awesome bikes and unless you are some kind of riding god will be more capable than you ever will. If you can't base it on a test ride base it on how well it should fit you on geometry on paper.

sits too low in its travel

you can easily tune a shock with bottomless rings to increase the spring rate and set sag wherever you want it, I know someone running 5 on their patrol because they do a lot of very big jumps, I run two on my smuggler (and my paint hasn't flaked off)

My Patrol has no alignment issues and the paint is fine.. it has a low BB, that's part of what makes it good 🙂

Wouldn't really class the Reign as dull, it's probably the funnest bike I've owned, just tune the shock to suit....
My reigns bearings have already outlasted by 3 times the life of the bearings in my old patrol and the shock mounts are showing no sign of wear either.

As for paint, find me a bike with decent paint these days, they're a rare thing, mines normally too dirty to notice anyhow but seems to be holding up ok.

As BigJim said, they are both awesome bikes, the Reign is just that bit more awesome for me

This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a while!

.

A Patrol with a 2 year warranty that will more than likely have alignment issues and flaky paint that sits too low in its travel?

no issues with my transition.

Cobblers - you really need to not let people on internet forums sway your opinion so much!

Sorry, my sarcasm levels were running high this afternoon.

If I'm honest I think I'm trying to talk myself out of the Patrol. On paper and reading the reviews it's the bike I want, the way it rides and looks, all the bits that appeal to me ie full carbon/threaded bb (granted not deal breakers but nice to have) and as someone mentioned earlier they're one of the smaller companies which appeals to me as I tend not to follow the crowd.

The 2 year warranty I can kind of look past as the chances of me keeping it longer than two years are minimal, what it will be worth in two years I don't know but I imagine it won't be much. The one thing I can't look past is the low bb/35% sag and pedal strikes. 165mm cranks sound short, would I notice the difference coming from 175mm? I don't know. What would it be like to live with pedalling round the Lakes and other rocky places?

The Reign I know I could buy tomorrow, thrash it to death and have no worries But I think I'd always have it in the back of my mind that I'd gone with the safe option. I don't mean that in a bad way as by all accounts it's a cracking bit of kit, I don't know.

Rune?

The BB on the Reign is pretty low too (342mm) Vs the Patrol at 339. The 5mm difference in travel probably accounts for some of the static sag difference too.

I think you are over-reading it. I ran 170's on the Reign, still run 170's now. Pedal strikes are rare (although I do run less sag) but you can always play with the suspension settings and tunes to run less sag but get a good setup 🙂

Rune?

My last bike was a Spitfire, I would have gone for a Rune but this years colours don't really do it for me.

I think you are over-reading it.

Guilty as charged. Are you running an X2? It would also be interesting to know if the Patrol qc issues are related more to the 16 frames than the 17 frames.

No issues with my Covert and I'd happily buy another Trany.

Is an Ally Trany really Santa Criz money ?

So it's a toss up between a dull Reign with a lifetime warranty, cheap hard wear, crap paint and poor shock mounts.

None of that is true. Especially if you're buying a 160mm travel bike. If you're doing that, then you're riding hard and fast. Otherwise any bike at 160 is gonna feel dull compared to the bike you *should* have bought.

Whats wrong with the shock mounts? I've never noticed anything about them on mine.

Sorry rickon, it was my attempt at a sarcastic round up of all the bad points other people had pointed out.

I assumed that would be the case, still, it's all bunkum.

I've noticed no difference in pedalling going 165 from 175. I thought I would...

I most noticed pedal strikes previously when powering up over things like climbing up a tall step - rather than when descending.

Built a Patrol up over the last couple days gone from my normal 175mm cranks to 170mm and on yesterday's first ride all seems good, didn't notice any difference due to crank length.

The paint didn't flake on the first ride either so that was good, I've not checked frame alignment yet 🙂

Looking forward to a few more rides and see how we get on....

Are you running an X2? It would also be interesting to know if the Patrol qc issues are related more to the 16 frames than the 17 frames.

Yes, Float X2.

I would imagine like most things, 99% of frames are fine - the numbers of them out there Vs the numbers of issues are are minimal for both bikes really.

For what it's worth, mine is a '16 frame - no issues.

Just buy the Patrol.

*advert engaged*
In fact, if you are a medium buy one of our last Patrol carbon frames at £2599 and get a free full set of Guide Ultimates worth many pennies.
[url= http://pedalsbikecare.co.uk/shop/2016-transition-patrol-carbon-frame-free-guide-ultimates/ ]Patrol Frame Free Guides[/url]

The 2 year warranty I can kind of look past as the chances of me keeping it longer than two years are minimal, what it will be worth in two years I don't know but I imagine it won't be much. The one thing I can't look past is the low bb/35% sag and pedal strikes. 165mm cranks sound short, would I notice the difference coming from 175mm? I don't know. What would it be like to live with pedalling round the Lakes and other rocky places

you don't have to run it at 35% sag, I run mine at 30%. most bikes these days have low BB's and any pedal strikes I've had has been down to my own stupidity of pedaling in the wrong place

Saying a Reign is dull reminds me of Honda motorcycles beIng described the same. Competent effective and reliable. Think of cars you owned with character.
My Reign smashed a loop around a slippery Ullswater and Borrowdale last night and never noticed it was dull!

That's a good comparison Tomaso, I went from the Reign to a Process 153 which was way more engaging and fun - but definitely not as capable riding places like the Lakes.

[img] [/img]

I just look at the Reign and want to touch myself inappropriately.

pigyn, thanks for the heads up but it would have to be a '17 in blue I'm afraid.

I called Windwave this morning to see if there are any Patrols locally(ish) for a demo but the man in the know is at the Cycle Show until next week *blows raspberry*

Which fork are people running on the Patrol? The Lyric or Pike?

[img] [/img]

And a Patrol for balance.

My Reign smashed a loop around a slippery Ullswater and Borrowdale last night and never noticed it was dull!

How do you find it on the ups around places like the Lakes? Do you ever find slop etc gathers around the bottom shock mount?

Deville FCV.

you don't have to run it at 35% sag, I run mine at 30%. most bikes these days have low BB's and any pedal strikes I've had has been down to my own stupidity of pedaling in the wrong place

I agree with this, however I do run my smuggler at 35% or thereabouts and got used to the lower bb pretty quickly.

I've just moved to 170 cranks from 175 and that is a noticeable difference in terms of pedal strike, it did feel a bit odd climbing at first but I think I'm used to it now, I do have fairly long legs though. Personally I don't think I would go to 165, but I am a giant and it would be like riding a childs bike

I run 165mm cranks cause I'm a short arse lol

Not sure why, but the Patrol doesn't look "right" the way Transitions used to - maybe the funky seat mast, maybe the bowed down tube, maybe the small rear triangle. Just not right.

Just spoke to someone about ordering the Patrol, being 5' 9" barefoot with a 32" in seam he reckons I may be better on a large than a medium as they come up short?

https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_PatrolCarbon.cfm

Size guide at bottom, but who you spoke to might know better if they've owned one. I'm not sure I'd class Transition as short, apart from Mondraker and geomotrons they're pretty much the longest reach around... teehee

Just spoke to someone about ordering the Patrol, being 5' 9" barefoot with a 32" in seam he reckons I may be better on a large than a medium as they come up short?

As bigjim said - other than the obvious freaks, the Patrol is one of the longest bikes out there. (1200mm+ WB on a large is a big bike, with nearly 460mm reach).

FWIW I run mine with a 170mm Fox 36 (with some custom internals).

Patrol looks 'cleaner' to me than the Reign, no FD mount, no brace between the stays etc. Not a great fan of the big logo, I always liked the fact about the Reign it wasn't covered in Giant logo's.

Given the choice between the two, I wouldn't swap back to the Reign, now i've got the setup right.

I'm 5'10 and a bit and originally bought a large, then downsized to a medium soon after, the large is LARGE, huge wheelbase, I had it set up with a 35mm stem but put a 50mm on the medium and it was a much better fit for, I also found the front didn't wash out anywhere near as much as with the large due to that fact it was much easier to get my weight in the right place in fast corners.

I think getting the right size when your 5'9-5'11 on most bikes is pretty hard these days as you fall right in most manufacturers overlap of sizes.

With the patrol I'd say go large if you like steady and stable and don't mind the extra effort when it's in the air or go medium if you want something more flickable (the medium still has a fairly big wheelbase).

Medium Reign on the other hand fits like a glove

All personal preferences of course...

Just looking at the numbers on a [u]medium[/u] Patrol v my old [u]medium[/u] Spitfire.

Reach is +2mm on the Patrol (large would be +25mm) and bb height is the same although sag will come into play there.

Was very happy size wise on the medium Spitty so looking at the numbers I'd be better off with a medium?

I am 6'1" and have long arms, I like big bikes so I have an XL with 35mm stem, its long! 1250mm wheelbase :). If you are 5'9" then I would think either a medium or large will be fine depending on how you like your bike set up, if you prefer a 50mm stem then a Medium should be fine, or go large with a really short stem if you want more wheelbase...