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Looks like it would be all gravel biking in the Lakes soon...
Cheers!
I.
For those of us not familiar with the route - it’s just looks like an access road of some description has been repaired/re-surfaced?
Yep, looks like a good job. Better surface to walk and ride on.
OP - I think you are being a bit harsh, they have done a reasonable job of it, yes it could be smoother but I would still say 8/10
I am sure walkers and horse riders will cope, although I can see that some extreme gnar core horse riders may feel its a little over engineered.
OP – I think you are being a bit harsh
Yeah, possibly :-/
looks like an access road of some description
I'm afraid not...
That is what it was looking like before - some random YT find
Looks to me that all interesting features has been completly sanitized.
Cheers!
I.
I wouldn't worry, a hard winter will restore it back to the gnarrfest you want it to be
Looks to me that all interesting features has been completly sanitized.
or it's been made far more accessible to a huge proportion of the population?
I expect it was a well built track in the past and had been eroded by the rain ice and snow, and that will happen again. Enjoy the difference while it lasts, if you want a challenge set yourself a stupid strava time and chase that next spring when the cracks start to show.
Ivan, remember this is a gravel forum now, if it was up to them, the whole country would look like that!.
Looks a shite job, but as above, it'll bed in and the loose stuff will wash a way, kinda pointless really.
People need to remember that tracks are not there just for "proper" mountain bikers
Ooo. I'll be able to go fast now!
I’m afraid not…
That is what it was looking like before
Looks like an old eroded farm track?
Didn't realise the gravel bikers had taken over stw.
Op - looks rubbish now, but it seems to be happening all over. As others say, hopefully after a few winters it will be back to normal
People need to remember that this is a mountain bike forum, and shouldn't really be surprised when a well loved descent is temporarily lost.
Looks to me that all interesting features has been completly sanitized.
That video makes it look very much like it "used to be" exactly like it is now at some point. Those cobbles didn't occur naturally.
It'll bed in, it'll wash away and in a few years it'll be a bit less tame.
And let's be honest, half the trails in the Lakes have steps cut in, cobbles dumped down them, gravel, slabs etc. including a huge number of "classic" descents that people get all excited about. None of them got that way on their own.
It's the up shot of it being a fairly well maintained and massively popular part of the country for out door activities.
Good opportunity to practice ‘skids’!!😂
Good opportunity to practice ‘skids’!!😂
I'm up for that, get a squad of us together and skid our way down it, get all that shit tae **** 🙂
Klunker weekend anyone?
Just needs a nice smooth top coat layer to make a nice little road bike climb. 😉
Where actually is this terrible damage by the way op? High nibthwaite to low parka Moor is an access track [to buildings] and "other access" so perfectly plausible it's [publicly] vehicle accessible at least that far up. bing aerial makes it look like the BW follows a vehicle access track all the way up to the fire road in the forest from low parkamoor
Heres a comparison showing the same spot, for those struggling to see whats happened here.
Utter bastards.
Why the hell would Kankku want to do that? Makes no sense whatsoever. Are they planning minibus tours or something? They were pissed off when it got done to the Tilberthwaite track.
Bummer, Parkamoor was one of my favourite, not overly techy fast Lakes descents.
Also 'Kankku' that he references in the post are an off-road driving experience company (based in Keswick?).
Has the bed rock been covered over or actually removed?
[edit]. It does mention in the images covered and done in 2 days.
It'll all be gone in a couple of months. The location is though vehicle access so tbh, you'd probably do similar if it were your drive way.
Has the bed rock been covered over or actually removed?
Covered, by the looks of it, so in theory we only have a couple of years of hideous ruts before it all blows out and the rock starts to resurface.
Nobeerinthefridge
Member
People need to remember that this is a mountain bike forum, and shouldn’t really be surprised when a well loved descent is temporarily lost.
People need to remember that this is a singletrack forum and not post doubletrack photos
Never understood the allure of kankku tbh, getting driven around fire roads, dull as ****.
Never understood the allure of kankku tbh, getting driven around fire roads, dull as ****.
This one was one of the only interesting ones (for 4x4 excursions) they had left. Apparently they've worked on the Fox byway down to Esthwaite too, don't know if that includes boulder alley down to Grizedale VC.
Anyone been across the Oxen Fell byway recently?
Let's face it, that ain't going to last long. One good winter and plenty of rain will soon see it wash out. Oh and the off -roaders going up it will help shift plenty of it too.
If anyone has been down into the dell at Troutbeck by the river with the new wooden footbridge lately ( I was last there in December), you can see how tossing a whole load of chippies down is a recipe for failure. There was a massive channel in the track caused by the water coming off the slope. It would swallow your wheel completely so I imagine it is probably even deeper now. What was once a nice grassy climb was a mess of gravel and ruts.
More worrying is the spelling in the thread title! Ha! Ha!
Cheers
Sanny
They resurfaced that about 15-18 years ago (I was living in Lancaster at the time, rode up there pretty regularly), went there one day and found a lot of gravel/slate etc all over it.
It settled down pretty quickly: some of it washed out, some got sort of packed down, bits of it was bedrock or cobbles. It doesn't look great but it'll bed in within a year or so.
Anyway, there's longstanding opposition to Kankkhu and similar 4x4 operations in the Lakes.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/16/lake-district-campaign-plans-legal-action-over-off-road-vehicles
They banned powerboats on Windermere (well OK, they introduced a blanket 10mph speed limit which amounted to a ban), this is the same sort of argument.
People need to remember that tracks are not there just for “proper” mountain bikers
Yes, how very dare people on a mountain bike forum express their own views based on being mountain bikers, selfish ****s 🙂
How dare someone on a mountain bike forum be capable of seeing a bigger picture...
More worrying is the spelling in the thread title! Ha! Ha!
The OP (Ivan) is Polish, so go easy on his spelling!
That doesn't look covered, that looks smashed up and flattened.
Thanks NewRetroTom!
I'm doing my best not to bastardize your language, but I'm failing occasionally.
I understand urge for accessibility but I'm not sure if there would be that many people on wheel chairs merrily going up on these slate chippings.
On the other hand it will more than likely encourage less skilled people to have a crack, probably with much higher speed than it is sensible.
Cheers!
I.
There does seem to be a effort to flatten all the good biking in the lakes
There’s lots of interesting footpaths however, you know for interesting walking obviously
<sigh> Ruined a good climb</sigh> 😏
Councils round here surfaced a few of our favourite bridleways a few years back. Most are pretty much back to the way they were.
The absolute hub deep bog fest is actually still not falling apart yet, and I fear that may not be such a bad thing after all
Sad but it won’t be long before it’s back to normal, well.. in a geological timeframe anyway. You have to wonder if there’s not better ways to spend money in a pandemic.
<sigh> Ruined a good climb</sigh> 😏
Made it less likely you'll splat yourself on the descent and wreck your brake lever, though 🙂
Where's the handbag emoji when you need it!
Didn't wreck the brake lever - the I-spec bolt had worked loose, the lever was fine ... it just wasn't attached to the bars!
The fox is sanitised now as well, yes.
Boulder alley is untouched though.
I'm with the OP, that's a real shame.
For sure there should be accessible parts of the Lakes, but to turn it all into footpaths seems a waste of money and spoils it for certain users.
APF
Every lakes thread is the same; inevitably becomes full of people who aren't very good at riding mountain bikes so swapped to gravel and want everything turned into a tow path.
A real shame, and kankku are a bunch of ****ers at the best of times.
I get it sucks for MTBs, but I understood it was not a MTB trail, it was a green lane/byway/unsurfaced road?
Went down there just before the Covid shiz kicked off. Same as the Fox, looks shite now.
People need to remember that this is a singletrack forum and not post doubletrack photos
Exactly.
Ok, bigyan, I'll bite. If you follow the 'It was a green way' argument to its natural conclusion you butt up against the issue of access laws. Now, if we were in Scotland, things would be different, as access rights would allow us to ride (responsibly) wherever you can walk. Therefore - we have the breadth of footpaths across the country to enjoy.
In the rest of the UK, if every doubletrack road is turned into a ramp for gravel bikers, 4x4s and old people you very swiftly realise that the only interesting or demanding places you can ride your bike on are now trail centres. Footpaths - illegal. Green lanes - gravel. Bridleways - currently and regularly resurfaced gravel.
Acts like this are never really about opening out access rights or access to the broader visiting population, but about satisfying a very vocal and often money-spending minority (in this case, w@nkers who drive 4x4 buggies with catless exhausts around the lakes). Contrary to popular belief, walkers don't want every path in the country turned into a towpath. Neither do trail runners, climbers, horse riders (I am all of these, before assumptions arrive).
Filling in stuff like this is just another step in the irritating sanitation of outdoor areas for profit - and something that anyone with an understanding of the British culture of outdoor ethics (don't bring the mountain down to your level, raise your game until you are capable - the same reason we don't bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock) should recoil at. For further reference, see any thread or response to the work of **** the fells.
I get it, money talks - but this is why you set up national park authorities.
Given that the proportion of trails/tracks/paths open to mountain bikers in England is tiny compared with what’s available to walkers, why wouldn’t a mountain biker be frustrated at the sanitising of a good trail? I’m not ready to swap to boring gravel riding, I’m only 51 😉
100% continuity, bang on.
It's bugger all to do with access for all, there's nothing at either end of that track, no parking, nothing, the idea that wheelchair access is the driver for this is about as preposterous as you'll get.
Grizedale forest has more paths and bridleways than you can shake a stick at, there's an incredible amount of options for all users.
I walk and run about as much if not more than I mountainbike these days, and that kind of surface has zero appeal for any activity, horrible, loose, and won't last, a complete waste of quarry work, manpower and carbon emissions.
This is a real shame if it's spreading all around Grizedale. It'd be interesting if anyone can find some of the official reasoning behind this as well as input from forestry, etc. As it has the potential to kill off MTB visitors if it goes on to cover more and more tracks.
Any photos of the Fox ‘inprovements’?
I love that track...
Any photos of the Fox ‘inprovements’?
I love that track…
I rode it before lockdown, and they had fixed the massive water feature before the actual downhill bit starts at the top, which actually is an improvement, and put material down here and there to sort out various bits where it collects water, but overall it wasn't a terrible job - the little rocky bits in the middle were still there. Hopefully it's just that, as any excess gravel will wash off that almost immediately.
All of these trails were byways, so the Highways authority will need to have given the nod to this work, perhaps even paid for it.
the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock
Not the case, and the bolt debate in UK climbing is the equivalent of helmet wearing, wheel size and squirrel killing all rolled into one. Let's not go there! 🙂
I rode up the Fox last week and it seemed the bedrock features were largely covered, however I was breathing out my arse and dehydrated, so I'm probably not the most reliable witness.
Certainly reinforces it's position as a climb rather than a descent in my route-planning.
Another classic Lakes descent sanitised/ruined for ... why exactly? 4x4s? Or some other group?
The Fox is/was one of my all time favourites. I've not ridden Parkamoor for a few years but I remember it as a great bit of trail.
Presumably, some organisation has some money to do all this... who are they? What is their aim?
The money must be coming from council taxpayers via the Highways budget, given the status of the track.
I do fear for the descent towards the VC, if this is the approach to their byways.
It has been discussed on LDMBA's FB page, FYI...
Its a road isn't it?
Would you complain about potholes being filled in on the m6?
And the LDMBA post has the same kind of crushingly dull and predictable responses saying "it's a road, get over it snowflake".
Well, if they were in the habit of lobbing 70K (the figure bandied about about Tilberthwaite to Little Langdale) at a track mainly used by walkers and bikers, and 4x4s, rather than spending it fixing their tarmac roads, I might raise an eyebrow.
Council funding settlements are likely to be very hard hit for years to come by recent events. I'm always surprised when they find cash to fix a gravel track like this - this byway doesn't even go anywhere, it ends at the Parkamoor junction - rather than spend it on their surfaced road network.
That’s been well & truly sanitised. Not much more than a dull fire road now. It’ll be lose to climb up on & even more lose not to mention sketchy to come down on.
Bloody ugly as well.
Filling in stuff like this is just another step in the irritating sanitation of outdoor areas for profit – and something that anyone with an understanding of the British culture of outdoor ethics (don’t bring the mountain down to your level, raise your game until you are capable – the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock) should recoil at. For further reference, see any thread or response to the work of **** the fells.
+1.
If the 4x4 ****ts use it then it will soon be eroded.
Not the case, and the bolt debate in UK climbing is the equivalent of helmet wearing, wheel size and squirrel killing all rolled into one. Let’s not go there!
Martinhutch; there is no bolt debate for a british climber. The BMC's ethical viewpoint is clear, and it remains so and this standpoint has underpinned the culture of british climbing for the last 120 years. You do not bolt routes that can be climbed traditionally. The only people that suggest otherwise are people trolling for suckers - which I pay you the compliment of assuming you are not.
Anyway - a real shame. More reason to campaign for modern progressive access laws like scotland.
Martinhutch; there is no bolt debate for a british climber. The BMC’s ethical viewpoint is clear, and it remains so and this standpoint has underpinned the culture of british climbing for the last 120 years. You do not bolt routes that can be climbed traditionally.
It was your comment about bolts only on quarried stuff which was the issue. Because, as a local to Malham and Kilnsey, it's totally untrue, obviously. Of course you must also be aware that there are also plenty of quarries in which bolts are verboten, as well. If you wanted to rock up and stick a line of bolts up Green Death at Millstone you'd probably attract some interest.
And there are places where routes which can be climbed traditionally are bolted anyway, such as Giggleswick.
People are still testing the boundaries, it's not entirely settled. I rode down through one of my local quarries the other day and noticed someone had stuck two fresh bolted lines with lower-offs up a short wall with a few lowish grade boulder problems recorded on it. Plus ca change etc 🙂
Ivan
I am 100% confident that my Polish is absolutely shocking compared to your English! Hope you have not taken offence.
Oh and like I wrote previously, it really won't take long for the trail to get back to normal. It's frustrating to see great trails like this improved but as sure as eggs are eggs, most of it will be washed away. Yon big yellow disc in the sky we keep seeing isn't really normal!
Cheers
Sanny
Its a road isn’t it?
Would you complain about potholes being filled in on the m6?
Was it a decision you made just for today to be a complete fanny, or are you always like this?. 🤔
Well at least the virus meant our lakes trip was cancelled this year - maybe in a few years time it will get back to the rocky goodness it used to be
The rocky bits made that a fun way down - so many different lines to take
Always saddens me to see Lakes paths getting this treatment as I've never had the opportunity to ride them. Only been up to the Lakes once in my life from down here in the SE.
To me that is an eroded mess and you can see the widening as people walk around the worst of the erosion. Whats its legal status?
Didn’t realise the gravel bikers had taken over stw.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
But above all - MTBing is either done on MTB specific trails at trail centres, cheeky homemade, or it's done on general trails that everyone else uses for a variety of purposes. Those trails aren't yours, so don't get all teary when they get maintained. Trail maintenance is a thing that happens.
the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock
Not the same. Rock climbing routes are entirely natural, except quarries. There's nothing natural about that trail or any other - they are made by people for a purpose, which sometimes isn't MTBing unfortunately. In fact given that the trail is artificial it puts it on the same moral status as climbing in a quarry.
In fact given that the trail is artificial it puts it on the same moral status as climbing in a quarry.
And imagine how peeved and indignant you'd be if someone came and hauled your favourite bouldering route out of a quarry.
Ok, bigyan, I’ll bite. If you follow the ‘It was a green way’ argument to its natural conclusion you butt up against the issue of access laws. Now, if we were in Scotland, things would be different, as access rights would allow us to ride (responsibly) wherever you can walk. Therefore – we have the breadth of footpaths across the country to enjoy.
Apologies, I live in Scotland so am spoiled for places to ride and perhaps dont appreciate the value of a road like that as a MTB trail.
Whats its legal status?
The section from High Parkamoor to High Nibthwaite (grid references SD 309926 to SD 294897) is a public road and has presumed rights for mechanically propelled vehicles.
https://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting/things-to-do/green_roads/green_road_parkamoor
molgrips
Subscriber
Didn’t realise the gravel bikers had taken over stw.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
I take it you don't ride the Lakes and your idea of a fun trail is a nice smooth groomed one!
A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
🙂
#gravel4life
A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
Only if your parents spliced the DNA of Jack Carthy and Gee Atherton to make you.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
But above all – MTBing is either done on MTB specific trails at trail centres, cheeky homemade, or it’s done on general trails that everyone else uses for a variety of purposes.
Why are you on a mountain biking forum if you clearly don't actually enjoy or go mountain biking? And no, gravel isn't mountain biking. Neither is riding your turbo trainer.
At least they haven't put metal gates and stiles up like they have in my local woods.
Ok if it is legally a road then the council have an obligation legally to maintain it so it is passable for vehicles and horses do they not?
At least they haven’t put metal gates and stiles up like they have in my local woods.
It's those bloody gap things that narrow at the top that they insist on installing on cycle paths that really annoy the hell out of me.
It's a cycle path, why specifically install infrastructure designed to make it impassable *on* a bike?
It's like installing a stile on a BW.
I road this trail blast summer and enjoyed it.
From a MTB point of view it's now a less good route and to be honest not much cop for a gravel bike either.
On the other hand its legal status is a road which the council are responsible for maintaining. I might prefer that it was a bridleway and left alone but that isn't the situation.
I'd live to know more about kanku's involvement. I try hard not to hate all things commercial in the lakes. Locals need jobs. I also try and be tolerant of motor bikes and 4x4 as there is precious little left for them in the lakes.
But putting the 2 things together in Kanku does annoy me. They put a fair amount of effort into advertising their off road days and they are by far the most common 4x4 to be seen in the lakes. It just doesn't seem sustainable