Panorama Cars V Bikes

Got up early to go for a walk in a great mood, 6Music news then reported not only how many drivers dislike cyclists but also how many admit to punishment passing us, with no comment as to the dangers of it, which is an instant green light for the rest of them to do it too.

My mood will not recover today.

Very much depends if the consequences of opinions and actions are highlighted.

I'll be giving it a swerve. Social media will be fun.

Just watched the whole thing whilst out walking the dog. Seems quite balanced and lots of people with different viewpoints had their say.

Some people just have the wrong attitude though - if those people weren’t on bikes they’d likely be in cars and so you wouldn’t get anywhere quicker - you’d be in more traffic.

Yes there is bad behaviour on both sides and both need to improve 100%. But in a big 1 tonne metal box you are going to damage people. On a bike you aren’t going to really threaten someone’s life if they’re in said metal box.

Not watched it but did it end with any conclusion other than the predictable us vs them? Any wisdom or suggestions to go forward?

Yeah - Drivers attitude to cyclists stinks.

How do we change it? Surely some of the responsibility lies with 'us' the cyclists?

I've seen a few 'public information' type adverts, from the Government/DVLA etc..., on telly of late but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Not in the slightest bit interested in watching it. Disappointed to see programmes like Panorama stooping to this level. I'd like to think my assumptions on the content are wrong but even the title is antagonistic.

Won't be watching it as I've been on the end of too many drivers who don't look. Got enough scars and broken bones to show for it, including nearly ending up on 4 wheels permanently (wheelchair).

It's one reason why I now commute off road as much as possible.

I also heard this morning. What I don't understand is why this vitriol is only aimed at cyclists. For some reason car drivers seem to be oblivious to electric scooters and mobility scooters, the latter being far slower than a cyclist and, in many cases, now seems to be used as a form of transport. Weird.....

Watched the intro, then had to crack on with my day. Looks much the same as all the other sensationalist media on the topic from the last decade or two. Helmet cam footage, meathead vox-pop sound bites...

Questions to those that did watch it all:
Was it mostly anecdotes? Does it do any deeper analysis of our national culture (car, bicycle and/or broader) was there much in the way of statistics?

How do we change it? Surely some of the responsibility lies with ‘us’ the cyclists?

Does it?

I’ve seen a few ‘public information’ type adverts, from the Government/DVLA etc…, on telly of late but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Well British Cycling now promote petrol and diesel?

I don't road cycle these days on my own, just don't like it. Things just seem to be worse after lock down 1 and that lovely summer.

Maybe it's because I don't commute very often these days and when I do it's pretty much all off road, so I'm not used to being in the traffic any more, but UK roads are awful. Well the ones near me are anyway...

Don't think I could watch the doc, as it'd just make me angry at people's attitudes.

Not in the slightest bit interested in watching it.

+1. Oh not this shit again.

Attitudes towards other road users - not just people on bikes - is still getting worse. I didn't think that was possible but it is. My commute (when I do it) is 95% away from traffic with the 5% mostly quiet roads, but I've had confrontations even on those.

Coverage on BBC Breakfast this morning was pretty balanced - studio guest from Cycling UK and head of AA (who's pretty pro-cycling) remotely. No frothing anti-cyclist guests.

Got four minutes in. Saw Rod Liddle's face appear. Closed window.

Having the likes of him appearing just tells you that the programme is just about polarisation/outrage. He has no valid contribution to make.

Even the name of the programme is inflammatory w**k. Panorama can get in the ****ing sea.

I think we have to engage with motoring bodies and motorists generally to protect ourselves.

We won't ever reach 100% of the problem motorists but if we don't try etc...

We all have 'skin-in-the-game' here, literally!

Friends and colleagues have been killed and injured and I think we have a responsibility to try and improve things.

If we have to use the media, to help communicate our stories, then so be it.

"Hold a candle to the devil" and all that :o)

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick. He said he liked to give Mamils a good prod from time to time to wind them up - seems a good attitude. Also thought cyclists should have insurance (I don’t actually think this would be a terrible thing - I’ve got BC membership in case some idiot decides to damage me on my bike when I’m out cycling), but he was slightly luke warm on registration surprisingly. Which clearly is never a good idea / isn’t feasible.

The presenter claimed to be a mamil and showed some clips of cycling into London and how scary it could be with buses etc. he had pro cyclist people, the South African bloke from London who goes out of his way to catch drivers doing stupid stuff, a few taxi / van drivers / old people who thought cycle lanes are a terrible idea, a business owner who finds it difficult to do deliveries with pedestrianised / cycle only areas, and some older ladies who have started cycling around because Leicester has put in loads of cycle infrastructure.

The one thing that wasn’t done was a challenge of people’s bad attitudes towards cyclists on the road. It was more - this is the problem, these are a broad range of people’s view on it, but no “this is what we could / should do” to fix it.

The one thing that wasn’t done was a challenge of people’s bad attitudes towards cyclists on the road

That's a missed opportunity :o(

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.

Understatement of the month.

From his Sunday Times column:

Every day it’s the same. Walk out of my front door with the dog to be swept aside, into a hedge, by a middle-class family from the city who think they’re all Bradley bloody Wiggins. Daddy and Piers, 11, in the peloton. Mummy bringing up the rear with little Poppy, 6, and Oliver, 4. All in Lycra, all with their energy drinks and fatuous expressions on their faces, expressions of self-righteousness and irreproachable virtue. This is a local lane for local people — go back to your tenements, I shout at them. My wife has persuaded me that, strictly speaking, it is against the law to tie piano wire at neck height across the road. Oh, but it’s tempting.

Friends and colleagues have been killed and injured and I think we have a responsibility to try and improve things.

If we have to use the media, to help communicate our stories, then so be it.

When the media frames the argument as cars v cyclists, it's just adding fuel to the fire. There's no equality here and there's nothing 'balanced' about it. It's victim blaming bullshit, when the real arguments are why don't we have safe spaces for vulnerable people? Why can't we travel safely without a car? Why has it become acceptable to act so aggressively towards, and endanger people? What can we do to change it?

T#@t$ in cars, t#@t$ on bikes, there will always be a small percentage in both. Then there are the mistakes we make when driving or riding. I am guilty of that. I try not to be a t#@t$ though.

Interestingly I now have a EV and I must admit I am not very attentive when driving it, I am much more alive and awake in my L200 truck and feel a safer driver.

I think we have to engage with motoring bodies and motorists generally to protect ourselves.

We Do?

I mean what engagement do you think will work to improve drivers behaviour, that hasn't been tried already?

How many people typically belong to "motoring bodies" is there a body that represents arseholes in Range Rovers? or a special Union for White Van drivers that I'm unaware of?

Who exactly do We have the responsibility to "engage" with? I think the real responsibility lies with the police to engage with murderous shits, take away their precious points, money, cars and if necessary freedom.

I'm not really sure what special messages are even needed, I mean does "please don't run people on bicycles over" really need saying?

The problem is that there's a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like ****s behind the wheel. you're arguing against 'normal' behaviour.

Well said that man ^^

cookeaa - not engaging with the enemy/process is a great way to prolong any conflict.

Of course you can pretend to be 'all-high-and-mighty' and name-call (are all Range Rover drivers really "arseholes"?) and just wait to be run-over, knocked-off. Then you can blame 'them' all over again and pretend you're a martyr to the cause etc....

I'd rather see more effort put in to education and, hopefully, watch the casualty rate decline. YMMV :o)

I'm sorry but I just don't like the implied victim blaming, like we'd all be so much safer if we'd just engage in some sort of imagined constructive dialogue... With whom? And to what end?
By the time I'm being picked out of the radiator it's a bit late, and there's seldom a sit down RLI discussion after each near miss to dissect the event. At best you each share your feelings in the form of shouted expletives and carry on with your day a bit angrier...

Try making the same sort of placating arguments for dialogue with murderers or rapists and see how far you get.
Why does dangerous driving require the would-be victims to have a helpful chat with (typically unreceptive) would-be offenders? What's so special about car owners? (Full disclosure, I also own a car)

Nah, criminal behaviour deserves criminal sanction, the authorities can talk to them it's not my chuffing job...

Let's put it this way, you're talking about trying to start a constructive dialogue with people who worship this God:

It's been tried, it's not going to happen...

Anyway I'm off to drive a car somewhere now (for work) responsibly and without endangering bicycle users or Pedestrians. Nobody had to tell me to drive that way, you see not killing/injuring strangers was mentioned as part of the conditions for keeping my driving licence when I obtained it.

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.

He's a professional dick, it's literally his job to be a crashing, reactionary, opinionated bore, and makes the spoutings of Jeremy Clarkson look like the teachings of Confucius.

Education goes so far. The ones who are willing to watch/listen and take it in will change. The rest need to be dealt with by enforcement.

There is almost zero risk of being caught breaking the law on the roads these days.

I think part of the aggression is down to a proportion of motorists, being sold a dream of freedom and then having to deal with the reality that actually driving is a bit shit and even cyclists can get there quicker than they can.

I’d rather see more effort put in to education and, hopefully, watch the casualty rate decline.

Yeah, I remember the recent one, the close pass initiative.... really made a massive difference.

I’m not really sure what special messages are even needed, I mean does “please don’t run people on bicycles over” really need saying?

The problem is that there’s a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like **** behind the wheel. you’re arguing against ‘normal’ behaviour.

^ this.

I do ride considerately and within the law. I am painfully aware of who will come off worse in an incident.
I am deeply aware that the vast majority of drivers are careful and respectful.
I cannot do anything about the few utterly unaware, selfish or downright aggressive drivers I have to interact with on occasion.
I also cannot do anything about the few cyclists who are unaware, selfish or downright aggressive - and neither should I have to, and I certainly don't have to be lumped in as some homogenous group because I happen to be on a bike...

all with their energy drinks and fatuous expressions on their faces, expressions of self-righteousness and irreproachable virtue

Is this actually a thing? I have been accused of this, once by a dude in his S5 at a set of temp traffic lights heading into Kingston recently. I was with a mate, we were just getting back from an amazing ride (road) the sun was out and we were picking are way through a massive static traffic line.

I thought he was joking first, but he then went nuts cos I was smiling I think, he then threatened to kill me. All because we had weaved our way through the traffic to get to the front. The road was narrow and the cars were blocking the way so we had no choice.

I do think some people just cant cope with bikes just sailing past them in their cars. I swear some people seem to drift out as you are passing sometimes.

Wouldn't have watched it, I know how it is on the roads and don't need clickbait rubbish. If it was positive I can go back and watch it later (read thread, answer=no). Which gets me onto how I'm not sure I can justify or want a TV license anymore. Shows like this, Question Time etc just makes me feel like I'm buying the TV equivalent of the Telegraph with my £160 a year.

"You don’t need a TV Licence if you never watch live on any channel, TV service or streaming service, or use BBC iPlayer*. On any device."

Live TV ... I can't think of anything I need to (or still do) watch live. Online catch-up covers it all.

I'd miss 'Mortimer and Whitehouse Go Fishing' at the moment and that's pretty much it. Maybe I'm wrong and missing a lot of great BBC content - go on, convince me.. You have to get past the BBC platforming Rod Liddle here and Julia H-B, Farage etc as often as they do compared to how rarely the opposing types get on there. Good luck.

There is almost zero risk of being caught breaking the law on the roads these days.

Be curious to see if more widespread personal camera usage might start to balance this out a bit.

Problem is, as others have said, shows which go for "cars vs cyclists" just help perpetuate it.
There are arsehole car drivers who, as a driver, I feel no responsibility for.
There are arsehole cyclists who, as a cyclist, I feel no responsibility for.

Since in my experience an arsehole is an arsehole whether they are driving or cycling personally I prefer them to be cycling. Since that generally results in a lower risk to everyone else.

bfw
Full Member

Is this actually a thing?

Course not, like all the best hysterical horseshitmongers, Rod Liddle divides his time between hating and fearing things that don't exist outside his head.

Do geezers give Gary Gammon on his supermarket bike with pool cues under his arm on the way to the club the same level of hatred as you and I?

but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Absolutely none of those "share with care" and "respect other road users" adverts, campaigns etc have ever worked.

Over the decades, hundreds of millions of pounds has been spaffed up the wall "encouraging" drivers to be responsible. None of it ever works.

There are two things that work. Proper safe segregated infrastructure that actually serves a purpose (ie not some footpath round the arse end of an industrial estate just to get cyclists off the road) and proper police enforcement with meaningful punishment/fines for transgressions.

Neither of which we have in this country.

The problem is that there’s a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like **** behind the wheel. you’re arguing against ‘normal’ behaviour.

This, with no effective come back and, sadly, not enough resources to Police the situation on the roads - whether it's drivers or cyclists breaking the law.

Pretty sure threatening harm to someone or a group of people on social IS a crime? Blatantly displaying a lack of understanding of the "rules of the road" on social media certainly should be.12 points and you lose your license with no exception - it's a punishment, the clue is in the name.

Oh yeah, for bonus points, Jeremy Vines TV show had this issue on this morning as well

It's so frurstating because ebikes and cargo ebikes are opening up the possibility of more and more people cycling. We have a cargo bike and regarularly get stopped by all sorts of (non-cycling enthusiast) people asking about it.

At the same time, petrol and cars just keep getting more and more expensive.

I'd agree none of this will change via education.
We need to do what France and Germany are doing and build infrastructure, but it seems impossible to get that done. It only takes one councillor to get whole projects binned or postponed indefinitely with yet another consultation carried out.

I cannot do anything about the few utterly unaware, selfish or downright aggressive drivers I have to interact with on occasion.
I also cannot do anything about the few cyclists who are unaware, selfish or downright aggressive – and neither should I have to, and I certainly don’t have to be lumped in as some homogenous group because I happen to be on a bike…

^^This^^ x1000%
It's why I prefer the terms 'People on bicycles' and 'people in cars' to 'cyclists' and 'motorists' (although I probably slipped up and used the more pejorative terms above I'm sure) both to humanise the individuals in control of a given vehicle and try to remove/challenge the idea of conflicting "groups". We're all just people, very few people define themselves soley by their preferred method of transport, those that do are probably best avoided TBH....

I am not a "cyclist" or a "motorist" I am a person who happens to own and use both forms of transport, neither really changes my rights or responsibilities to other people.

I just wrote a complaint to the bbc about the title of the programme.

You can do the same here if you want to.

I've not watched the programme yet but might.

I thought I had better endure the rest of the program,just in case there was some glimmer of hope.
Nope 🙁
TBH,as many have said ,starting off with a Car V Bike title is only ever going to excite the Liddle/Clarkson types,and I feel giving a platform to someone like Liddle was a mistake,he is a real piece of work.
The guy taking photos and confronting road users was at the other extreme, I can’t see what he will really achieve long term and he may well meet someone that will do him harm.
There were no easy/realistic solutions suggested,and some of the updated statistics on accident/fatalities were shocking.
That section with the partners of the two blokes that were killed was a hard watch.
I have cycled and commuted(town and country)for a long time and the only thing that bothers me more now (when I think about it),is the increase in on-board distractions for other road users.
Would dumb vehicles be safer for everyone and stop making(some)operators forget about what they are piloting?

We’re all just people, very few people define themselves soley by their preferred method of transport, those that do are probably best avoided TBH….
I am not a “cyclist” or a “motorist” I am a person who happens to own and use both forms of transport, neither really changes my rights or responsibilities to other people.

Yup,much as I love cycling,motorcycling and driving,that's how I feel ^^

I'm going to give this one a miss.

Interesting point about increased camera use and also (lack of) policing. My car has a factory dash cam with 4 cameras and I've had some positive responses from different police forces when I've submitted footage via their portals. Usually saying something like "we have reviewed the footage and are confident we can deal with this via fixed penalty notice". Incidents like another car cutting across me lane 3>2>1>exit slip with a nice jab of brakes all initiated at the 100 yd marker..

I really do hope these people are getting points/fines through their letterbox but I will continue to submit footage regardless.

This is linked to the policing point, there just isn't any.. and people can largely just get away with whatever they want. Doing the police's job for them via the dash cam portals will hopefully go a small way to addressing some of the shortfall as people are hopefully realising they can't just get away with being completely reckless dickheads on the roads.

I do think on a bike you feel it more acutely but it's a general respect for other road users thing in my view. I've recently started working with a client 210 miles away which I drive to once a week (4 hour drive vs 7 hour bus/train/train/train/bus....) and the amount of reckless and intimidating shit I see is absolutely staggering. I've been doing this since August and have seen a grand total of 1 traffic police in 1000s of miles travelled. The most prevalent bellendery at the moment is vans doing 90+ mph, are vans not meant to go slower than cars? Either way I'm not confident in the stopping ability of a van at those sorts of speeds.

People don't give driving the attention it deserves. The amount of folk who are doing something else whilst driving is staggering. I had a chap overtake me this morning on my cycle commute who was sipping a hot drink as he came past. One hand on the steering wheel, one hand holding an insulated mug. My safety is worth less to him than his coffee.

The most prevalent bellendery at the moment is vans doing 90+ mph

Usually right up the chuff of the van in front. Braking distances are not a consideration to these idiots.

Just watched it. Was fully expecting to be outraged.
It's actually OK I thought. Seemed much more weighted towards cyclists and the need for things to change.

Title is still sensationalist and clickbaity though.

People don’t give driving the attention it deserves. The amount of folk who are doing something else whilst driving is staggering.

This time of year is particularly bad for it - clocks gone back = lots of people driving in the dark for the first time since about March (bear in mind most driving is pretty local journeys - commute, school run, shopping etc). The number of cars with only one working headlight and the darkness also makes it very easy to see the glare of a mobile phone screen.

Saw one guy with his phone mounted in sat nav position except the screen didn't have a map on it, he was watching the football! And another guy today with his phone dead centre in the screen (this one was on map display but how the hell he could see the actual road is a mystery to me!)

Cities that don't work out how to encourage people onto bikes and public transport will need to live with ever increasing congestion and pollution.

Those city centres will suffer as people find that they don't want to sit in a traffic jam in order to cruise around a giant multi-storey looking for a spot and then go to a dying city centre.

Meanwhile cities that work out how to make it safe and enjoyable to cycle into will grow and thrive.

Cities that don’t work out how to encourage people onto bikes and public transport will need to live with ever increasing congestion and pollution.

Those city centres will suffer as people find that they don’t want to sit in a traffic jam in order to cruise around a giant multi-storey looking for a spot and then go to a dying city centre.

Meanwhile cities that work out how to make it safe and enjoyable to cycle into will grow and thrive.

Very well said!

I watched the programme and wasn't surprised by the content (I also regularly check out Near This Of The Day on road.cc) but actually think the title was, hopefully, quite clever, as in I hope it attracted the attention of enough motorists and that it will moderate some of their attitudes.

I was somewhat disappointed about the survey Panorama commissioned as there wasn't much detail of what other questions where asked
i.e. did they ask any questions such as, would motorists be happy to sit in denser traffic if all the bike commuters switched to (solo) car use instead?
Or questions about vulnerability of cyclists or pedestrians?

The guy taking photos and confronting road users was at the other extreme, I can’t see what he will really achieve long term and he may well meet someone that will do him harm.

Local to me. On a road i've ridden many times. This guy went out of his way to do something about it. He wasn't then killed intentionally by someone that knew who he was AFAIK, but when i stood toe to toe with a truck driver who nearly mowed me down he said that this guy was "a c*$t who got what he deserved"
Probably read this.
Cameron Frewer - The Most Pointless Cycling Death Of All Time

This article is pants. The 'journalist' (seriously he can't be a professional journalist).

That said, i do believe that I get given heaps of space by 99% of the drivers and that it's got better in the past few years - since Cameron died.

This article is pants. The ‘journalist’ (seriously he can’t be a professional journalist).

That entire site is a fine example of anti cyclist drivel. I would delete the link rather than use it as a source for anything.

Not watched it yet but like many have regular interactions that aren't too pleasant, including a very heated exchange at a friends house with a bast**d who proudly claimed he tired to drive us off the road! I was restrained in several ways.

But getting back to the what to do issue, yes we should refer to "people on bikes", build infrastructure, go to council meetings, create and participate in family orientated critical mass events and much more. Perhaps the BC relationship with Shell could be used to some advantage. An awareness campaign at every fuel station, warnings on receipts etc. Get a Top Gear episode where the presenters are riding bikes and passed by a few different vehicles at different speeds and judge there reaction.

I'm a helmet wearer but do remember some (Canadian I think) research that showed that riders who wore helmets and glasses weren't perceived as human (more robotic etc). Part of it also showed that those riders who had red beam/arms with flags on the back to increase visibility were driven closer to as it implied they had a safe space. This was twenty odd years ago but it always had a ring of truth to it for me. Following this I never wear glasses on the road as making eye contact at junctions does seem to have some effect.

The number of cars with only one working headlight and the darkness

The number of cars driving round with no headlights on is as bad, if not worse. The amount of cars with just DRLs on is unreal. One of the worst motoring innovations IMHO.

Edit: for balance all bar one motor vehicles gave me loads of room on my commute, waiting back at a distance til it was safe to pass or I turned off etc, but yep, still has a van pass within mm's of me and swerve back in front before slamming his brakes on.

@wingnuts

Wishful thinking but I expect BC have all the Shell Money earmarked for wind tunnel time or buying jiffy bags.

Got four minutes in. Saw Rod Liddle’s face appear.

I assume Nigel Farage must have been busy that day? He is on every other BBC programme.

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.

He's a domestic abuswer who once wrote that he couldn't be a teacher as he wouldn't be able to restrain himself from shagging kids. Still, I'm sure his views on cycling are fascinating.

Following this I never wear glasses on the road as making eye contact at junctions does seem to have some effect.

I’m very wary of that since being taught as a learner motorcyclist to look at car wheels not drivers faces. The number of motorbike riders that get hit by cars and afterwards say “they looked straight at/through me then pulled out anyway”

Happened to me once on a push bike and I had my left leg off the pedal bracing for impact then heard the Abs activate.

I did eventually watch it, as expected it was mostly fluff IMO, half an hour of (mostly urban focussed in that there London) anecdotes and dash/helmet-cam rage baiting. There wasn't really much substance or solutions on offer and maybe it was a bit much to expect that.

That section with the partners of the two blokes that were killed was a hard watch.

Yes, but it wasn't given enough prominence either (IMO), the very real results of Automotive bellendery weren't really examined enough for me (can they ever be?)...

Liddle's contributions were clearly quite heavily edited down to keep the amount of vitriol in check I reckon...

He’s a domestic abuswer who once wrote that he couldn’t be a teacher as he wouldn’t be able to restrain himself from shagging kids. Still, I’m sure his views on cycling are fascinating.

😀 😀

His comments were sort of interesting, in so much as he effectively undermines much of the carefully curated narrative from the "Motoring Lobby's" cycling complaints department by illustrating that what really sits behind a lot of the hate as the sort of petty simmering resentment of generally angry, lazy people who project their own anxieties and perceived failings onto people on bicycles. He seems to have an issue with anyone displaying what he see's as Environmental or Fitness "Virtues" and of course by being on a bicycle you are apparently broadcasting a whole spectrum of implied messages, which Liddle (and I guess by extension lots of other people?) take issue with. It's not so much that he hates people on bicycles, he seems to hate everything for which he thinks they stand; the "green agenda", toxically positive health and fitness notions, the implied modern middle-classness of even owning a bicycle...

One of the other interviewees made an interesting point addressing the fella making the program, he noted that those angry at cyclist don't see someone pedalling to do the shops, or someone's teenage daughter, they see people like himself or the journo; MAMILs on posh bikes, clad in Lycra unintentionally projecting their middleclass privilege. That sort of tallies with Liddle's ranting and lots of other people I've spoken with over the years. I think a fair chunk of the "issue" isn't really anything to do with bicycles, it's the age-old British habit of seeing "Class" and all its derived inequalities and envy in just about everything...

It's interesting that they mostly spoke to relatively middleclass bicycle users, and their point of reference for the "Motoring perspective" seemed to mostly be Van drivers in busy Urban locations (Plus one rage baiting journalist, who doesn't really believe in anything other than directing his simmering hate towards everyone, so should maybe be disregarded)...

So Yeah, if there's one kernel of "truth" to be teased out of that half hour of telly-babble, it's that behind all of this confected conflict are the same old resentments and jealousy that fuel pretty much all other discord in our society... Thus following Rule 1 still seems to be the best available option...

Education goes so far. The ones who are willing to watch/listen and take it in will change. The rest need to be dealt with by enforcement.

Absolutely this. Nob ends will always be nob ends and there is no amount of education that will change that. I think what we need to see is more consequences to poor behaviour, sometimes people need more stick than carrot so proportionate fines and/or points on license should be used. Example - I often fail to notice that I am exceeding the speed limit in the car, earlier this year I got two speeding tickets within a month of each other, I now pay a lot more attention to my speed. I was of course outraged and blamed the police for profiteering as it was never my fault, but the reality is that my behaviour has changed for the better.

Edit: This should apply to cyclists as well as car drivers, for example a fine for jumping a red light. I know it’s almost impossible to police, but my point is that there needs to be balance otherwise there will be outrage.

Liddle (and I guess by extension lots of other people?) take issue with. It’s not so much that he hates people on bicycles, he seems to hate everything for which he thinks they stand; the “green agenda”, toxically positive health and fitness notions, the implied modern middle-classness of even owning a bicycle…

The health thing is just a projection of self-loathing, as is the whining about others having a social conscience. Man just doesn't like the implication that cyclists are fitter, happier or care about others, because it shines a light into his own soul.

I suppose in normal circumstances it would simply be pitiable, but he has a media platform to broadcast his personality flaws and allow his audience to justify behaving in a similar way.

Edit: This should apply to cyclists as well as car drivers, for example a fine for jumping a red light. I know it’s almost impossible to police, but my point is that there needs to be balance otherwise there will be outrage.

Should we also fine pedestrians for crossing before the green man comes on, would that be balanced?

When and where cyclists should be fined is up for debate, but let's not pretend they are equal to, or pose the same threat, as motorised traffic (which is the only reason those lights are there in the first place). Any punishment should be evidence based and reflect the danger posed by the crime (in this case, specifically in relation to bicycles).

Comparisons between people on 10kg bicycles and 2000kg vehicles capable of travelling 10x the speed are ridiculous, and reinforcing this idea of equality between two completely unequal groups is what perpetuates the outrage you speak of, imo.

Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands? Does anyone know whether there’s a noisy Dutch pro-car lobby demanding exclusive access to our towns and cities and arguing that the quality of life would improve if they got rid of all those bloody cyclists?
I doubt it.

giving a platform to someone like Liddle was a mistake,he is a real piece of work.

Nasty nasty piece of work. Over the yrs penned many a dodgy opinion on everything from misoyny to racism to homophobia. An objective & informed view from him you will not get. Surprised he can even find work as a hack. For that reason alone I'm out!

I’ll never understand the thought process to nearly or attempt to kill / maim another human being purely because their mode of transport slows them down by a small % on their journey.

Probably the only thing I’d agree with on the whole programme was it can be a pain when stuck behind a group ride. And I say that as a roadie who rides in group rides on a Sunday. But most group rides try to keep to quiet roads and allow vehicles through when possible/safe for us to do so.

The people who do the ridiculous close passes or purposefully pull out on cyclists, they should have been interviewed and asked why they thought it appropriate that they kill a human being to save a few seconds.

I’d agree with an earlier comment that calling us cyclists automatically puts us into a category. We are human beings who opt for a different mode of transport, either for commuting or leisure purposes. The vast majority of us Mamils are considerate to other road users. This is in part due to us being incredibly aware of our vulnerability on the road.

The programme showed a bus close pass that was horrendous. The driver and the bus company should have been interviewed by the cyclist and their children. With the children saying “you where mm’s away from murdering my dad purely because he happened to be on a bike”. It’s absolutely insane that we have to even discuss this type of position.

Some people are scum. Over the years I’ve encountered a few on the road. I’ve actually had someone stop their car, get out, as I’m still clipped in on one foot, they then attempted to push me into oncoming (40/50 mph) traffic in the other lane, and yes he checked that there was oncoming traffic when he pushed me. I went to the police and nothing happened, but I had no reg details.

What I’ve always found bizarre is that most people don’t mind being delayed by folk on a horse, but a cyclist they have no qualms of killing or causing serious life changing injuries.

What I’ve always found bizarre is that most people don’t mind being delayed by folk on a horse

I think the sort of person who is upset by cyclist is also upset by horses. The difference though is stupid driving near a horse is highly liable to end in tears for both sides. They know the limits of their little steel and glass castles.

Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands?

There was certainly debate when they started taking road space away from motor vehicles in the 70s. By all accounts there was some strong push back, even then (in a very different environment to what we have today).

The Netherlands isn't perfect by any means. Road cyclists are disliked in the same way they are here, and if you wander on to a road where somebody thinks you shouldn't be, you'll be punished - I've had some of my worst (very much deliberate) close passes there.

The difference is in the infrastructure and the cultivated attitude that everybody has the right to travel safely, regardless of transport.

I stopped riding on the road years ago following a hospitalisation from a guy who "just didnt see me" on a roundabout in broad daylight.

The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate? It can't really bother people that someone in the city centre may jump a red light can it?? Can it really be envy as Cookea suggests? I feel it's as if we have been forced into this position by the media (yeah them again) and are now just acting as per some tribal box we never subscribed to.

The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate? It can’t really bother people that someone in the city centre may jump a red light can it?? Can it really be envy as Cookea suggests?

I think part of it is "othering" - people are conditioned to hate/fear "others" who are not "them"
(see also, old people complaining about youngsters "hanging around" for example)

Part of it is jealousy - they've been sold this dream of freedom and power and status with their car (and even now adverts show crossover SUV things zipping around empty streets while pedestrians stop and stare). Reality is you're stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, your brand new SUV is no more capable than the battered old For Fiesta in front of you and there are Others who are going faster than you! Who haven't paid road tax! The freeloading bastards!

And part of it is just the generally selfish attitude that so many people here in the UK seem to have. Me me me, all these Others are in my way, doing better than me, not bound by the same laws as me, I'll show them...

Toxic mix in the wrong hands.

The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate?

I don't really know either but it's not the roads that cause it imo, it's just where it comes out. I mean, driving is rarely any pleasure and rush hour traffic is miserable but it's just dull mainly.
One thing someone said that stuck with me is that in a society with a combination of so much to aspire to yet so many with little to no hope of much at all there's a lot of people lacking self worth or a reason to have pride in themselves, or having a feeling that others look down on them. One way to try to reclaim some self esteem is to put others down. The classroom bully mentality. Or tribalism - illogically polarised politics, racism, joining in with common low denominator attitudes etc. 'If I'm with these guys I must be ok'.
I expect it happens to some extent everywhere but I find it easy to see why the UK has this problem or why the roads become an outlet for it. A lot of the media and the current Govt make the most out of it.

The difference though is stupid driving near a horse is highly liable to end in tears for both sides.

Personally, I disagree. I don't think that much thought is going into it. Going slow and wide around horses is just a thing that is embedded in society, in exactly the same way as it should be for bikes. People watch their parents being careful around horses and close passing bikes for years before they start driving. Without any perspective from the other side then their actions would never have reason to be any different (one could argue the driving test should do this...)

I don’t really know either but it’s not the roads that cause it imo, it’s just where it comes out

for most people, its where they are going to meet the "others".

your family, neighbours, colleagues, school run, supermarket, pub, leisure shopping - all mean you spend time with people who are, in some way at least, like you. only on the roads do most encounter a true cross section of society.

I don’t really know either but it’s not the roads that cause it imo, it’s just where it comes out. I mean, driving is rarely any pleasure and rush hour traffic is miserable but it’s just dull mainly.

Disney did a film about it as far back as 1950!

Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands? Does anyone know whether there’s a noisy Dutch pro-car lobby demanding exclusive access to our towns and cities and arguing that the quality of life would improve if they got rid of all those bloody cyclists?

I imagine there was in the 70s when they started the push to get people out of cars. Easy to forget that the Dutch cycling nirvana is a relatively recent thing.

Be interesting to know how they achieved the initial change in direction and mindsets.

Overtaking horses on the road is interesting because drivers will still 'close pass' a horse drawn vehicle, but very rarely a horse being ridden. I suspect it's because most large animals have a mind of their own and will maybe rear up or kick out at something passing at speed and too close.

As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a horse rider, by far the worst people on the road are motorised users.

Curious how many posters haven't or (proudly) won't watch the episode but feel qualified to post paragraphs about it. Spoiler: in making assumptions, you're part of the problem.

On the back of this thread I watched this at lunchtime. I was expecting the worst and honestly, it was as close to 'balanced' as I could have hoped for. There was lots of footage of bellendery whether two wheels or four.

I found it hard to sympathise with the lad midway who got taken out on a mini-roundabout. It looked a nasty collision but as far as I could tell both cyclist and motorist carved through on the wrong side of the road.

The anti-cyclist poster boy gammon they wheeled out could have been worse (or was heavily edited). He made a couple of reasonable points (eg, insurance) but overall he didn't come out of that looking well.

As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a horse rider, by far the worst people on the road are motorised users.

As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a motorbike rider, by far the worst people on the road are people.

Shitbags come in many forms. Their chosen form of transport is largely immaterial, potential for harm aside.

I found it hard to sympathise with the lad midway who got taken out on a mini-roundabout. It looked a nasty collision but as far as I could tell both cyclist and motorist carved through on the wrong side of the road.

Or a cyclist was trying to evade a car essentially coming the wrong way round a roundabout?

The point he made about "making eye contact" was the interesting bit for me.
I was originally taught that you eyeball the driver, but later that you look at the front wheel instead (far more logical), it's interesting that people still pickup these same flawed road survival techniques. At the same time, if you have ROW (as he did) you shouldn't need to have to second guess the stupidity levels of someone supposedly trained and licensed to drive a car on the roads...

Shitbags come in many forms. Their chosen form of transport is largely immaterial, potential for harm aside.

The potential for harm is a rather large factor for me. As previously mentioned in my opinion anyone who fails the test is likely to do it regardless of mode of transport and hence I go with wanting them on the least dangerous form. Ideally on foot but failing that cycling.

More cash

The point he made about “making eye contact” was the interesting bit for me.
I was originally taught that you eyeball the driver, but later that you look at the front wheel instead (far more logical), it’s interesting that people still pickup these same flawed road survival techniques.

Making eye contact isn't flawed, it can help you anticipate; if the driver hasn't looked they haven't seen you" watching wheels is a good idea but it can only tell you what the vehicle is doing not what it may do. Watching the wheels wouldn't have helped that cyclist one bit, the only thing that could have helped him was slowing and anticipating the car wouldn't stop. Mini roundabouts are a nightmare, I generally give way to everyone until I have seen them slow/stop.

A mini roundabout a week or so ago.

Which reminds me, need to change the timestamp after I put the new battery in

I was expecting the worst and honestly, it was as close to ‘balanced’ as I could have hoped for. There was lots of footage of bellendery whether two wheels or four.

The 3 minute piece on the national news tried to be balanced. They showed a person on a bike being knocked to the ground and his bike thrown several feet in the air. Another person was forced off the road into the verge. They then talked to family of two cyclists that had been killed. Finally we moved on to the bad cyclists and showed a rider cutting a junction making a car slow down slightly and another crossing the road quite close to lorry. The bellendery is no way equivalent.

your family, neighbours, colleagues, school run, supermarket, pub, leisure shopping – all mean you spend time with people who are, in some way at least, like you. only on the roads do most encounter a true cross section of society.

Or on the train/tube, people don't tend to get train rage though unless it's late at the weekend and they're drunk.

Agree there's a lot of social group stuff going on on the roads though, it's a good point. And it's the protective box and transitional thing in driving that makes cars such an outlet for people's pent up frustrations. Someone can vent then carry on with no consequences. So you know the ones who do get out of the car are either really slow thinkers or likely physical aggression sorts (or worst, both).